Elizabeth Woodville & Melusine

I'm writing my University dissertation Elizabeth Woodville and Witchcraft claims.

I have looked at the folowing information on Wikepedia:

"Elizabeth was crowned Queen on Ascension Day, 26 May 1465. There was an infamous
incident at her coronation which was not attended by Edward IV (kings traditionally did not
attend their consorts' coronations) in which her mother's Luxembourg kinsmen landed in
a ship at Ship's Green and arrived at Westminster Abbey carrying shields painted with the
figure of Melusine, a "water-witch" (actually a medieval version of the old pagan goddess)
described variously as a mermaid or possibly as a female figure depicted as a snake from
the waist down, but with the face clearly that of the young Queen. This immediately
caused whispers of witchcraft to circulate throughout the Abbey, as it was indeed the
intention of the Luxembourgers to suggest an accusation of witchcraft thereby. Elizabeth's
brother Anthony came to her rescue, driving the Luxembourg kinsmen forth from the
Abbey all the way to Ship's Green where he would not allow them to embark and depart
until he had answered this charge of witchcraft in single combat with every one of them
and scratched every Melusine shield. (This "infamous incident" appears to be a modern
invention. It is not recorded in any of Elizabeth Woodville's modern biographies, including
the relatively hostile one by David MacGibbon, or in any contemporary chronicle.main
books on her"

I was just wondering if anyone knows what source the information comes from. It isn't in
any contemporary documents so I'm not sure whether to believe the incident happened.
Any help would be much appreciated,
Thanks very much,
Luiza

I don't know anything about this alleged incident, but it's rather interesting that the accusation of witchcraft supposedly came from Elizabeth Woodville's own relations rather than the king's.

Ann




________________________________
From: luiza_reece <luiza_reece@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 27 January, 2009 11:55:16 PM
Subject: Elizabeth Woodville & Melusine


I'm writing my University dissertation Elizabeth Woodville and Witchcraft claims.

I have looked at the folowing information on Wikepedia:

"Elizabeth was crowned Queen on Ascension Day, 26 May 1465. There was an infamous
incident at her coronation which was not attended by Edward IV (kings traditionally did not
attend their consorts' coronations) in which her mother's Luxembourg kinsmen landed in
a ship at Ship's Green and arrived at Westminster Abbey carrying shields painted with the
figure of Melusine, a "water-witch" (actually a medieval version of the old pagan goddess)
described variously as a mermaid or possibly as a female figure depicted as a snake from
the waist down, but with the face clearly that of the young Queen. This immediately
caused whispers of witchcraft to circulate throughout the Abbey, as it was indeed the
intention of the Luxembourgers to suggest an accusation of witchcraft thereby. Elizabeth's
brother Anthony came to her rescue, driving the Luxembourg kinsmen forth from the
Abbey all the way to Ship's Green where he would not allow them to embark and depart
until he had answered this charge of witchcraft in single combat with every one of them
and scratched every Melusine shield. (This "infamous incident" appears to be a modern
invention. It is not recorded in any of Elizabeth Woodville's modern biographies, including
the relatively hostile one by David MacGibbon, or in any contemporary chronicle.main
books on her"

I was just wondering if anyone knows what source the information comes from. It isn't in
any contemporary documents so I'm not sure whether to believe the incident happened.
Any help would be much appreciated,
Thanks very much,
Luiza

--- In , "luiza_reece"
<luiza_reece@...> wrote:
>
> I'm writing my University dissertation Elizabeth Woodville and
Witchcraft claims.
>
> I have looked at the folowing information on Wikepedia:
>
> "Elizabeth was crowned Queen on Ascension Day, 26 May 1465. There
was an infamous
> incident at her coronation which was not attended by Edward IV
(kings traditionally did not
> attend their consorts' coronations) in which her mother's
Luxembourg kinsmen landed in
> a ship at Ship's Green and arrived at Westminster Abbey carrying
shields painted with the
> figure of Melusine, a "water-witch" (actually a medieval version of
the old pagan goddess)
> described variously as a mermaid or possibly as a female figure
depicted as a snake from
> the waist down, but with the face clearly that of the young Queen.
This immediately
> caused whispers of witchcraft to circulate throughout the Abbey, as
it was indeed the
> intention of the Luxembourgers to suggest an accusation of
witchcraft thereby. Elizabeth's
> brother Anthony came to her rescue, driving the Luxembourg kinsmen
forth from the
> Abbey all the way to Ship's Green where he would not allow them to
embark and depart
> until he had answered this charge of witchcraft in single combat
with every one of them
> and scratched every Melusine shield. (This "infamous incident"
appears to be a modern
> invention. It is not recorded in any of Elizabeth Woodville's
modern biographies, including
> the relatively hostile one by David MacGibbon, or in any
contemporary chronicle.main
> books on her"
>
> I was just wondering if anyone knows what source the information
comes from. It isn't in
> any contemporary documents so I'm not sure whether to believe the
incident happened.
> Any help would be much appreciated,
> Thanks very much,
> Luiza
>

My understanding is that the House of Luxembourg did hold themselves
to be descended from Melusine, but that Elizabeth and her family, at
any rate, never made any use of the legend.
The first I came across the supposed link between Elizabeth Woodville
and Meulsine was Rosemary Hawley Jarman's novel 'The King's Grey
Mare'. The historian Jonathan Hughes tries to make mileage out of it
in his 'Arthurian Myths and Alchemy: The Kingship of Edward IV', and
has certainly been criticised for it on the grounds that there is no
evidence Elizabeth ever made use of the connection.
The only book I personally know of which relates the legend of
Melusine is Sabine Baring-Gould's 'Curious Myths of the Middle Ages'.

I've certainly never heard of this coronation story before.

Marie

Yeh I've only come accross the Coronation incident online and can't really trust what
Wikepedia says. I think the story must have come from a novel, most probably The Kings
Grey Mare.
Trying to look up evidence to see if Jaquetta's descended from the House of Lusignan.
>
> My understanding is that the House of Luxembourg did hold themselves
> to be descended from Melusine, but that Elizabeth and her family, at
> any rate, never made any use of the legend.
> The first I came across the supposed link between Elizabeth Woodville
> and Meulsine was Rosemary Hawley Jarman's novel 'The King's Grey
> Mare'. The historian Jonathan Hughes tries to make mileage out of it
> in his 'Arthurian Myths and Alchemy: The Kingship of Edward IV', and
> has certainly been criticised for it on the grounds that there is no
> evidence Elizabeth ever made use of the connection.
> The only book I personally know of which relates the legend of
> Melusine is Sabine Baring-Gould's 'Curious Myths of the Middle Ages'.
>
> I've certainly never heard of this coronation story before.
>
> Marie
>

Have you corrected the Wilkipedia item, or at least added that it is
probably from a fiction and not a known historical incident?
Paul - who doesn't often ride to the defence of the Woodvilles, but
lies are lies!

On 28 Jan 2009, at 19:33, luiza_reece wrote:

> Yeh I've only come accross the Coronation incident online and can't
> really trust what
> Wikepedia says. I think the story must have come from a novel, most
> probably The Kings
> Grey Mare.
> Trying to look up evidence to see if Jaquetta's descended from the
> House of Lusignan.
>>
>> My understanding is that the House of Luxembourg did hold themselves
>> to be descended from Melusine, but that Elizabeth and her family, at
>> any rate, never made any use of the legend.
>> The first I came across the supposed link between Elizabeth Woodville
>> and Meulsine was Rosemary Hawley Jarman's novel 'The King's Grey
>> Mare'. The historian Jonathan Hughes tries to make mileage out of it
>> in his 'Arthurian Myths and Alchemy: The Kingship of Edward IV', and
>> has certainly been criticised for it on the grounds that there is no
>> evidence Elizabeth ever made use of the connection.
>> The only book I personally know of which relates the legend of
>> Melusine is Sabine Baring-Gould's 'Curious Myths of the Middle Ages'.
>>
>> I've certainly never heard of this coronation story before.
>>
>> Marie
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard liveth yet

I studied Melusine awhile back. Here's some links:
http://melusinegoddess.com/
http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1153
Most European royalty claims descendancy from Melusine, or one of her
iterations. The story you mention might not actually have occurred, but
I think it's safe to say that people certainly made the connection.

luiza_reece wrote:
>
> Yeh I've only come accross the Coronation incident online and can't
> really trust what
> Wikepedia says. I think the story must have come from a novel, most
> probably The Kings
> Grey Mare.
> Trying to look up evidence to see if Jaquetta's descended from the
> House of Lusignan.
> >
> > My understanding is that the House of Luxembourg did hold themselves
> > to be descended from Melusine, but that Elizabeth and her family, at
> > any rate, never made any use of the legend.
> > The first I came across the supposed link between Elizabeth Woodville
> > and Meulsine was Rosemary Hawley Jarman's novel 'The King's Grey
> > Mare'. The historian Jonathan Hughes tries to make mileage out of it
> > in his 'Arthurian Myths and Alchemy: The Kingship of Edward IV', and
> > has certainly been criticised for it on the grounds that there is no
> > evidence Elizabeth ever made use of the connection.
> > The only book I personally know of which relates the legend of
> > Melusine is Sabine Baring-Gould's 'Curious Myths of the Middle Ages'.
> >
> > I've certainly never heard of this coronation story before.
> >
> > Marie
> >
>
>

--- In , "luiza_reece"
<luiza_reece@...> wrote:
>
> Yeh I've only come accross the Coronation incident online and can't
really trust what
> Wikepedia says. I think the story must have come from a novel, most
probably The Kings
> Grey Mare.

I'm 99% sure it's not in the King's Grey Mare. Like I said, this is
where I first read of the Melusine link, but this particular story
was news to me. 'The King's Grey Mare' just has Jacquetta tell the
story to her daughter as inspiration, and the Melusine background is
then a sort of symbolic thread running through the book. But it must
be forty years since I read it so I could well be wrong.
Personally I think the Melusine story is not that relevant to the
witchcraft accusations, except in so far as she may have had a
serpent's tail (the other version is a fish's tail); I'm pretty sure
that their exotic descent was not brought up in connection with the
accusations. The Lusignan descendants weren't the only people to
claim magical descent, of course. The Beauchamps and Bohuns, and the
house of Lorraine, all claimed descent from the Swan Knight.
Being descended from a magical being - even a snakewoman - doesn't
force you to practise witchcraft. The canonical view, I suspect,
would be that Elizabeth had been baptised and so washed clean of
original sin, and she had free will like everyone else. I think the
reasons for the accusations were rather more practical.

Marie

A SECRET ALCHEMY

By Emma Darwin, Headline, 399 pages, $24.95

The history of King Richard III of England, with his short, bloody reign and
the question of whether he killed his nephews to seize the throne, continues
to mystify and engage historians, novelists, playwrights. Shakespeare saw
him as a crouched creature of evil.

Josephine Tey, writing 300 years later, revised that portrait in her
spectacular novel The Daughter of Time. Now, along comes Emma Darwin (yes,
an offshoot of that Darwin) to unearth Richard again, this time as the
brother-in-law of the brilliant and beautiful Elizabeth Woodville, known to
history as Elizabeth, Queen of England, and wife to the bold King Edward IV,
"the sun of York," whose ascendancy to the throne casts out winter's
"discontents."

There is far and away enough drama in the actual history of the Wars of the
Roses to fuel a fine novel, and Darwin takes full advantage of it all. Sex,
power, plots and war keep the action moving as Woodville attempts to keeps
her family safe and her children alive.


Carole M. Rike
RIKE SERVICE INC,
48299 Stafford Road . Tickfaw, LA 70466
fax & phone: 985-350-6101
www.rike.com <http://www.rike.com/>
carole@... or carole@...

Northshore Office of Word Catering, Ltd.


<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
=10517/stime=1233409924/nc1=3848614/nc2=4025338/nc3=5579903>

Hi Marie,
Thank you for your information. Just wondered where you got your information about the The Beauchamps and Bohuns, and the house of Lorraine claiming descent from the Swan Knight? Also do you know of any other houses that claimed descent from mythological beings as I'd like to include this in my dissertation.
Thanks very much
Luiza

--- On Sat, 31/1/09, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:


From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville & Melusine
To:
Date: Saturday, 31 January, 2009, 1:51 PM






--- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, "luiza_reece"
<luiza_reece@ ...> wrote:
>
> Yeh I've only come accross the Coronation incident online and can't
really trust what
> Wikepedia says. I think the story must have come from a novel, most
probably The Kings
> Grey Mare.

I'm 99% sure it's not in the King's Grey Mare. Like I said, this is
where I first read of the Melusine link, but this particular story
was news to me. 'The King's Grey Mare' just has Jacquetta tell the
story to her daughter as inspiration, and the Melusine background is
then a sort of symbolic thread running through the book. But it must
be forty years since I read it so I could well be wrong.
Personally I think the Melusine story is not that relevant to the
witchcraft accusations, except in so far as she may have had a
serpent's tail (the other version is a fish's tail); I'm pretty sure
that their exotic descent was not brought up in connection with the
accusations. The Lusignan descendants weren't the only people to
claim magical descent, of course. The Beauchamps and Bohuns, and the
house of Lorraine, all claimed descent from the Swan Knight.
Being descended from a magical being - even a snakewoman - doesn't
force you to practise witchcraft. The canonical view, I suspect,
would be that Elizabeth had been baptised and so washed clean of
original sin, and she had free will like everyone else. I think the
reasons for the accusations were rather more practical.

Marie