Thomas Neville
Thomas Neville
2009-08-30 20:31:26
I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
We can be certain of
Richard, Earl of Warwick
John, Lord Montagu
George, Archbishop of York
But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
We can be certain of
Richard, Earl of Warwick
John, Lord Montagu
George, Archbishop of York
But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
Re: Thomas Neville
2009-08-30 23:03:03
--- In , "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> We can be certain of
>
> Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> John, Lord Montagu
>
> George, Archbishop of York
>
> But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
Nothing definitive, but Thomas was married three years before John, viz:-
1) Thomas married Maude Stanhope (Dowager Lady Willoughby) in August 1453, whilst John married Isabel Ingoldsthorpe on 25th April 1457.
>
>
> I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> We can be certain of
>
> Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> John, Lord Montagu
>
> George, Archbishop of York
>
> But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
Nothing definitive, but Thomas was married three years before John, viz:-
1) Thomas married Maude Stanhope (Dowager Lady Willoughby) in August 1453, whilst John married Isabel Ingoldsthorpe on 25th April 1457.
>
Re: Thomas Neville
2009-09-01 21:51:09
--- In , "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> We can be certain of
>
> Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> John, Lord Montagu
>
> George, Archbishop of York
>
> But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
>
> I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> We can be certain of
>
> Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> John, Lord Montagu
>
> George, Archbishop of York
>
> But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
Re: Thomas Neville
2009-09-01 23:59:16
Wikipoedia has Thomas Neville born in 1443, making him 4th son
Tudor Place concurs with VDP making him 2nd
But Burkes Peerage gives John Neville a crescent for difference on his arms, suggesting John was 2nd son, and Freezywater back this up by giving Thomas a mullet for 3rd son, but then FW are wrong on nearly all the Nevilles.
Does anyone have Complete Peerage on this?
Also, any information on property he may have held; this would probably be in right of his wife as a co-heiress of Lord Cromwell.
BP
--- On Tue, 1/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
To:
Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 9:50 PM
--- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> We can be certain of
>
> Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> John, Lord Montagu
>
> George, Archbishop of York
>
> But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
Tudor Place concurs with VDP making him 2nd
But Burkes Peerage gives John Neville a crescent for difference on his arms, suggesting John was 2nd son, and Freezywater back this up by giving Thomas a mullet for 3rd son, but then FW are wrong on nearly all the Nevilles.
Does anyone have Complete Peerage on this?
Also, any information on property he may have held; this would probably be in right of his wife as a co-heiress of Lord Cromwell.
BP
--- On Tue, 1/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
To:
Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 9:50 PM
--- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> We can be certain of
>
> Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> John, Lord Montagu
>
> George, Archbishop of York
>
> But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
Re: Thomas Neville
2009-09-02 15:19:58
David,
The Complete Peerage (XI, p.398) doesn't give years of birth but lists chronologically: Richard, Sir Thomas, John, George and six daughters.
Furthermore, the attainder was reversed shortly after Wakefield anfd the title was transmitted in jure uxoris,
Stephen.
PS Different hairstyles according to the order of birth?
--- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> Wikipoedia has Thomas Neville born in 1443, making him 4th son
> Tudor Place concurs with VDP making him 2nd
> But Burkes Peerage gives John Neville a crescent for difference on his arms, suggesting John was 2nd son, and Freezywater back this up by giving Thomas a mullet for 3rd son, but then FW are wrong on nearly all the Nevilles.
> Does anyone have Complete Peerage on this?
> Also, any information on property he may have held; this would probably be in right of his wife as a co-heiress of Lord Cromwell.
> BP
> --- On Tue, 1/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
> Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
> To:
> Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 9:50 PM
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> --- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> >
>
> > We can be certain of
>
> >
>
> > Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> >
>
> > John, Lord Montagu
>
> >
>
> > George, Archbishop of York
>
> >
>
> > But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> >
>
> > I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
> >
>
> van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
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The Complete Peerage (XI, p.398) doesn't give years of birth but lists chronologically: Richard, Sir Thomas, John, George and six daughters.
Furthermore, the attainder was reversed shortly after Wakefield anfd the title was transmitted in jure uxoris,
Stephen.
PS Different hairstyles according to the order of birth?
--- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> Wikipoedia has Thomas Neville born in 1443, making him 4th son
> Tudor Place concurs with VDP making him 2nd
> But Burkes Peerage gives John Neville a crescent for difference on his arms, suggesting John was 2nd son, and Freezywater back this up by giving Thomas a mullet for 3rd son, but then FW are wrong on nearly all the Nevilles.
> Does anyone have Complete Peerage on this?
> Also, any information on property he may have held; this would probably be in right of his wife as a co-heiress of Lord Cromwell.
> BP
> --- On Tue, 1/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
> Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
> To:
> Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 9:50 PM
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> --- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> >
>
> > We can be certain of
>
> >
>
> > Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> >
>
> > John, Lord Montagu
>
> >
>
> > George, Archbishop of York
>
> >
>
> > But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> >
>
> > I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
> >
>
> van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
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Re: Thomas Neville
2009-09-02 16:01:14
Apparently the 9th son has a bubble perm...
--- On Wed, 2/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
To:
Date: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009, 3:19 PM
David,
The Complete Peerage (XI, p.398) doesn't give years of birth but lists chronologically: Richard, Sir Thomas, John, George and six daughters.
Furthermore, the attainder was reversed shortly after Wakefield anfd the title was transmitted in jure uxoris,
Stephen.
PS Different hairstyles according to the order of birth?
--- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, david rayner <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> Wikipoedia has Thomas Neville born in 1443, making him 4th son
> Tudor Place concurs with VDP making him 2nd
> But Burkes Peerage gives John Neville a crescent for difference on his arms, suggesting John was 2nd son, and Freezywater back this up by giving Thomas a mullet for 3rd son, but then FW are wrong on nearly all the Nevilles.
> Does anyone have Complete Peerage on this?
> Also, any information on property he may have held; this would probably be in right of his wife as a co-heiress of Lord Cromwell.
> BP
> --- On Tue, 1/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@ ...>
> Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
> To: richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 9:50 PM
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> --- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> >
>
> > We can be certain of
>
> >
>
> > Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> >
>
> > John, Lord Montagu
>
> >
>
> > George, Archbishop of York
>
> >
>
> > But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> >
>
> > I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
> >
>
> van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
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--- On Wed, 2/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@...>
Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
To:
Date: Wednesday, 2 September, 2009, 3:19 PM
David,
The Complete Peerage (XI, p.398) doesn't give years of birth but lists chronologically: Richard, Sir Thomas, John, George and six daughters.
Furthermore, the attainder was reversed shortly after Wakefield anfd the title was transmitted in jure uxoris,
Stephen.
PS Different hairstyles according to the order of birth?
--- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, david rayner <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> Wikipoedia has Thomas Neville born in 1443, making him 4th son
> Tudor Place concurs with VDP making him 2nd
> But Burkes Peerage gives John Neville a crescent for difference on his arms, suggesting John was 2nd son, and Freezywater back this up by giving Thomas a mullet for 3rd son, but then FW are wrong on nearly all the Nevilles.
> Does anyone have Complete Peerage on this?
> Also, any information on property he may have held; this would probably be in right of his wife as a co-heiress of Lord Cromwell.
> BP
> --- On Tue, 1/9/09, stephenmlark <stephenmlark@ ...> wrote:
>
> From: stephenmlark <stephenmlark@ ...>
> Subject: Re: Thomas Neville
> To: richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, 1 September, 2009, 9:50 PM
>
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> --- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@ ...> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I'm trying to establish the order of birth for the 4 sons of Richard, Earl of Salisbury.
>
> >
>
> > We can be certain of
>
> >
>
> > Richard, Earl of Warwick
>
> >
>
> > John, Lord Montagu
>
> >
>
> > George, Archbishop of York
>
> >
>
> > But where does the other son, Thomas (killed at Wakefield) come?
>
> >
>
> > I've seen different references for his birth place him anywhere from 1st to 4th in the order; does anyone have anything definitive?
>
> >
>
> van der Pas puts him second. The fact that he pre-deceased his father, (by one day) whilst the other major sons didn't, is unhelpful because Richard (Warwick) succeeded as Earl of Salisbury. Curiously, the old Earl was beheaded after Wakefield but obviously not attainted.
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