Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham

i just found a record for Anne, Duchess of Buckingham. it was dated feb. 14, 1478. this anne is an older sister of cecily neville, and is also henry, duke of buckingham's grandmother.

his grandfather humprhrey died, 1460.
his father humphrey died in 1459.
henry was aged 23 in 1478.

henry was married to katherine/catherine woodville.
anne died in 1480.

when did katherine become known as the duchess of buckingham. did she and her grandmother in law "share" the title? or did katherine need to wait until anne died?

Essex Records Office.
Item
Reference Code D/DBa T1/220
Dates of Creation 14 February 1478.
Title [Deed: Final concord made in the court of Anne, Duchess of Buckingham....


roslyn

As she married him after 1460 when the first Duke died, she became Duchess of Buckingham immediately as wife of the current Duke - her grandmother-in-law would have simply been the Dowager Duchess as widow of a previous Duke.
Similarly, Edward Stafford's wife became Duchess on their marriage - his mother being alive or not is irrelevant.

----- Original Message -----
From: fayreroze
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 4:28 PM
Subject: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham



i just found a record for Anne, Duchess of Buckingham. it was dated feb. 14, 1478. this anne is an older sister of cecily neville, and is also henry, duke of buckingham's grandmother.

his grandfather humprhrey died, 1460.
his father humphrey died in 1459.
henry was aged 23 in 1478.

henry was married to katherine/catherine woodville.
anne died in 1480.

when did katherine become known as the duchess of buckingham. did she and her grandmother in law "share" the title? or did katherine need to wait until anne died?

Essex Records Office.
Item
Reference Code D/DBa T1/220
Dates of Creation 14 February 1478.
Title [Deed: Final concord made in the court of Anne, Duchess of Buckingham....

roslyn

thank you stephen. so, it would seem they "shared" the title. because the record does read anne, duchess of buckingham. there is no clarification of dowager in the record. it threw me for a moment when i read it. knowing henry's mother was margaret and his wife was katherine.
 
it sent me scurrying to my files to see if his father had married twice, or if it was possible that katherine was also known as anne. i had to go back one more generation to find the "anne" in the document.
 
and then i had to also check my records to determine exactly when henry had become the duke. if "dowager" had been in the document, it wouldn't have been quite so puzzling to me.
it's the first time in over a decade and a half of research that i have run into this "scenario".
 
regards
roslyn

--- On Sun, 12/6/09, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:


From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
Subject: Re: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham
To:
Received: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 11:34 AM


 



As she married him after 1460 when the first Duke died, she became Duchess of Buckingham immediately as wife of the current Duke - her grandmother- in-law would have simply been the Dowager Duchess as widow of a previous Duke.
Similarly, Edward Stafford's wife became Duchess on their marriage - his mother being alive or not is irrelevant.

----- Original Message -----
From: fayreroze
To: richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 4:28 PM
Subject: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham

i just found a record for Anne, Duchess of Buckingham. it was dated feb. 14, 1478. this anne is an older sister of cecily neville, and is also henry, duke of buckingham's grandmother.

his grandfather humprhrey died, 1460.
his father humphrey died in 1459.
henry was aged 23 in 1478.

henry was married to katherine/catherine woodville.
anne died in 1480.

when did katherine become known as the duchess of buckingham. did she and her grandmother in law "share" the title? or did katherine need to wait until anne died?

Essex Records Office.
Item
Reference Code D/DBa T1/220
Dates of Creation 14 February 1478.
Title [Deed: Final concord made in the court of Anne, Duchess of Buckingham.. ..

roslyn

Henry's father was never a Duke so his mother was not a Duchess.

----- Original Message -----
From: fayre rose
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham



thank you stephen. so, it would seem they "shared" the title. because the record does read anne, duchess of buckingham. there is no clarification of dowager in the record. it threw me for a moment when i read it. knowing henry's mother was margaret and his wife was katherine.

it sent me scurrying to my files to see if his father had married twice, or if it was possible that katherine was also known as anne. i had to go back one more generation to find the "anne" in the document.

and then i had to also check my records to determine exactly when henry had become the duke. if "dowager" had been in the document, it wouldn't have been quite so puzzling to me.
it's the first time in over a decade and a half of research that i have run into this "scenario".

regards
roslyn

--- On Sun, 12/6/09, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:

From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
Subject: Re: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham
To:
Received: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 11:34 AM



As she married him after 1460 when the first Duke died, she became Duchess of Buckingham immediately as wife of the current Duke - her grandmother- in-law would have simply been the Dowager Duchess as widow of a previous Duke.
Similarly, Edward Stafford's wife became Duchess on their marriage - his mother being alive or not is irrelevant.

----- Original Message -----
From: fayreroze
To: richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 4:28 PM
Subject: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham

i just found a record for Anne, Duchess of Buckingham. it was dated feb. 14, 1478. this anne is an older sister of cecily neville, and is also henry, duke of buckingham's grandmother.

his grandfather humprhrey died, 1460.
his father humphrey died in 1459.
henry was aged 23 in 1478.

henry was married to katherine/catherine woodville.
anne died in 1480.

when did katherine become known as the duchess of buckingham. did she and her grandmother in law "share" the title? or did katherine need to wait until anne died?

Essex Records Office.
Item
Reference Code D/DBa T1/220
Dates of Creation 14 February 1478.
Title [Deed: Final concord made in the court of Anne, Duchess of Buckingham.. ..

roslyn

--- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> thank you stephen. so, it would seem they "shared" the title. because the record does read anne, duchess of buckingham. there is no clarification of dowager in the record. it threw me for a moment when i read it. knowing henry's mother was margaret and his wife was katherine.

The medievals didn't seem to find the situation as confusing as we do, and didn't often specify 'dowager'. If they wanted to distinguish they more often just referred to 'the old duchess' or 'the young duchess'.
There was an even worse situation with duchesses of Norfolk in the 1460s and early 1470s, with two dowagers (Katherine Neville and Eleanor Bourchier) and one current (Elizabeth Talbot). Can anybody think of any bigger pile-ups?

Marie



>  
> it sent me scurrying to my files to see if his father had married twice, or if it was possible that katherine was also known as anne. i had to go back one more generation to find the "anne" in the document.
>  
> and then i had to also check my records to determine exactly when henry had become the duke. if "dowager" had been in the document, it wouldn't have been quite so puzzling to me.
> it's the first time in over a decade and a half of research that i have run into this "scenario".
>  
> regards
> roslyn
>
> --- On Sun, 12/6/09, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> Subject: Re: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham
> To:
> Received: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 11:34 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> As she married him after 1460 when the first Duke died, she became Duchess of Buckingham immediately as wife of the current Duke - her grandmother- in-law would have simply been the Dowager Duchess as widow of a previous Duke.
> Similarly, Edward Stafford's wife became Duchess on their marriage - his mother being alive or not is irrelevant.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: fayreroze
> To: richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 4:28 PM
> Subject: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham
>
> i just found a record for Anne, Duchess of Buckingham. it was dated feb. 14, 1478. this anne is an older sister of cecily neville, and is also henry, duke of buckingham's grandmother.
>
> his grandfather humprhrey died, 1460.
> his father humphrey died in 1459.
> henry was aged 23 in 1478.
>
> henry was married to katherine/catherine woodville.
> anne died in 1480.
>
> when did katherine become known as the duchess of buckingham. did she and her grandmother in law "share" the title? or did katherine need to wait until anne died?
>
> Essex Records Office.
> Item
> Reference Code D/DBa T1/220
> Dates of Creation 14 February 1478.
> Title [Deed: Final concord made in the court of Anne, Duchess of Buckingham.. ..
>
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> :

> There was an even worse situation with duchesses of Norfolk in the 1460s and early 1470s, with two dowagers (Katherine Neville and Eleanor Bourchier) and one current (Elizabeth Talbot). Can anybody think of any bigger pile-ups?
>
> Marie



No...I'm still coping with Isabel DeSpencer and her husbands, Richard Beauchamp and Richard Beauchamp (each of whom had a daughter named Elizabeth) and John Paston and his sons John and John, who were only a few years apart in age, were adults at the same time, and were born of the same wife, not to mention John Talbot and his sons John and John, who also were adults at the same time, though they were from different marriages.

There are so many duplicate names circulating in those times that one can feel sorry for Barbara Tuchman, who said in the foreword of her "A Distant Mirror" that at one point in her research, she discovered that she had spent a year and a half following the wrong Enguerrand de Coucy. Who would have thought there would be two men by that name, living at the same time, moving in the same circles?

Katy

There were two Margaret Beauforts, both daughters of Dukes of Somerset, who were cousins. They both had sons named Henry, born in the same year.

----- Original Message -----
From: oregonkaty
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham





--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> :

> There was an even worse situation with duchesses of Norfolk in the 1460s and early 1470s, with two dowagers (Katherine Neville and Eleanor Bourchier) and one current (Elizabeth Talbot). Can anybody think of any bigger pile-ups?
>
> Marie

No...I'm still coping with Isabel DeSpencer and her husbands, Richard Beauchamp and Richard Beauchamp (each of whom had a daughter named Elizabeth) and John Paston and his sons John and John, who were only a few years apart in age, were adults at the same time, and were born of the same wife, not to mention John Talbot and his sons John and John, who also were adults at the same time, though they were from different marriages.

There are so many duplicate names circulating in those times that one can feel sorry for Barbara Tuchman, who said in the foreword of her "A Distant Mirror" that at one point in her research, she discovered that she had spent a year and a half following the wrong Enguerrand de Coucy. Who would have thought there would be two men by that name, living at the same time, moving in the same circles?

Katy

i know the naming practice in the late 1700's of naming several sons all the same and after the father was to ensure that at least one son survived to carry on the name sake/family name. it doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to consider that these 18C parents were copying a medieval practice of ensuring the family name of "john paston" carried on for a few more generations.
 
this same name, "in the family" also one reason we have pet names: john/jack, edward/ed/ned/ted/ward, hal/hank/henry, or mary/molly, elizabeth/bess/beth/liz/lisbet, margaret/meg/peggy, etc.
 
and then there are the latin names such as that of jacob which becomes james, isabel is elizabeth.
 
roslyn

--- On Sun, 12/6/09, oregonkaty <oregon_katy@...> wrote:


From: oregonkaty <oregon_katy@...>
Subject: Re: Anne Neville - Duchess of Buckingham
To:
Received: Sunday, December 6, 2009, 4:01 PM


 





--- In richardiiisocietyfo rum@yahoogroups. com, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
>
> :

> There was an even worse situation with duchesses of Norfolk in the 1460s and early 1470s, with two dowagers (Katherine Neville and Eleanor Bourchier) and one current (Elizabeth Talbot). Can anybody think of any bigger pile-ups?
>
> Marie

No...I'm still coping with Isabel DeSpencer and her husbands, Richard Beauchamp and Richard Beauchamp (each of whom had a daughter named Elizabeth) and John Paston and his sons John and John, who were only a few years apart in age, were adults at the same time, and were born of the same wife, not to mention John Talbot and his sons John and John, who also were adults at the same time, though they were from different marriages.

There are so many duplicate names circulating in those times that one can feel sorry for Barbara Tuchman, who said in the foreword of her "A Distant Mirror" that at one point in her research, she discovered that she had spent a year and a half following the wrong Enguerrand de Coucy. Who would have thought there would be two men by that name, living at the same time, moving in the same circles?

Katy