photo

Here's the photo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/10127\
7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor I've
seen.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist

On Aug 17, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Joan wrote:

> Here's the photo
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/10127
> \
> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor I've
> seen.
>
> Joan
>

Wow, no kidding. What a close resemblance. Never would have seen him
as Jarrod Barkley, though.

Gilda

Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Joan
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
Subject: photo



Here's the photo
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/10127\
7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor I've
seen.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist

I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be good candidate for playng Richard.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599

--- In , "Annette Carson" <ajcarson@...> wrote:
>
> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> Annette
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> Subject: photo
>
>
>
> Here's the photo
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/10127\
> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor I've
> seen.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
 
roslyn - from the west coast of canada

--- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 <pneville49@...> wrote:


From: pneville49 <pneville49@...>
Subject: Re: photo
To:
Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM


 



I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be good candidate for playng Richard.
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599

--- In , "Annette Carson" <ajcarson@...> wrote:
>
> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> Annette
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> Subject: photo
>
>
>
> Here's the photo
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/10127\
> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor I've
> seen.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
amazing in the role if I can get him!
Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
Paul

On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:

>
> let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
>
> roslyn - from the west coast of canada
>
> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 <pneville49@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: pneville49 <pneville49@...>
> Subject: Re: photo
> To:
> Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> good candidate for playng Richard.
> http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
>
> --- In , "Annette Carson"
> <ajcarson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
>> Annette
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Joan
>> To:
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
>> Subject: photo
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's the photo
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
>> 10127\
>> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
>> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor I've
>> seen.
>>
>> Joan
>> ---
>> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
>> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
>> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
>> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
>> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet the
criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though he's
English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the south.
From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.

Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
understand.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale
<paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
> image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
> played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
> number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
> the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> amazing in the role if I can get him!
> Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
> Paul
>
> On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
>
> >
> > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> >
> > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> >
> > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@... wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: pneville49 pneville49@...
> > Subject: Re: photo
> > To:
> > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> >
> > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > ajcarson@ wrote:
> >>
> >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> >> Annette
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Joan
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> >> Subject: photo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Here's the photo
> >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> >> 10127\
> >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
I've
> >> seen.
> >>
> >> Joan
> >> ---
> >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.

--- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet the
> criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though he's
> English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the south.
> From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
>
> Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> understand.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> <paul.bale@> wrote:
> >
> > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
> > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
> > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
> > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
> > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > >
> > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > >
> > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > To:
> > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > >
> > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > >> Annette
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: Joan
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > >> Subject: photo
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Here's the photo
> > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > >> 10127\
> > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> I've
> > >> seen.
> > >>
> > >> Joan
> > >> ---
> > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Paul,

Just want to say "welcome" from Australia, too. With all the messages backwards
and forwards since you joined us I had 40 messages waiting this morning, when I
switched my computer on, which was welcome surprise after a number of rather
quiet days.

Cheers, Dorothea





________________________________
From: pneville49 <pneville49@...>
To:
Sent: Wed, 18 August, 2010 8:14:15 AM
Subject: Re: photo


Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are wide and
varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard was a
Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as such he would
have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I can`t imagine would be too
different today from what it was then.


--- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet the
> criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though he's
> English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the south.
> From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
>
> Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> understand.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> <paul.bale@> wrote:
> >
> > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
> > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
> > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
> > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
> > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > >
> > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > >
> > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > To:
> > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > >
> > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > >> Annette
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: Joan
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > >> Subject: photo
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Here's the photo
> > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > >> 10127\
> > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> I've
> > >> seen.
> > >>
> > >> Joan
> > >> ---
> > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Thank you Dorothea. I`d also like to thank you all for the kind welcome I`ve been given. I feel at home already. :-)

--- In , Dorothea Preis <dorotheapreis@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Just want to say "welcome" from Australia, too. With all the messages backwards
> and forwards since you joined us I had 40 messages waiting this morning, when I
> switched my computer on, which was welcome surprise after a number of rather
> quiet days.
>
> Cheers, Dorothea
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: pneville49 <pneville49@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wed, 18 August, 2010 8:14:15 AM
> Subject: Re: photo
>
>
> Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are wide and
> varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard was a
> Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as such he would
> have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I can`t imagine would be too
> different today from what it was then.
>
>
> --- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@> wrote:
> >
> > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet the
> > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though he's
> > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the south.
> > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> >
> > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > understand.
> >
> > Joan
> > ---
> > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
> > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
> > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
> > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
> > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > >
> > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > To:
> > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > >> Annette
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: Joan
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > >> Subject: photo
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's the photo
> > > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > >> 10127\
> > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > I've
> > > >> seen.
> > > >>
> > > >> Joan
> > > >> ---
> > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well, he was a Yorkshireman only after he married Anne and E4 placed him
in the north to act as his proxy. I did do a bit of research into what
English might have sounded like in the late 15th-century and this led me
to believe that it sounded more like what you'd hear in America's
Appalachia. Give a listen to the audio files from The American Front
Porch <http://ils.unc.edu/afporch/audio/audio.html> . People spelled
words the way they heard them as there was no standardized spelling and
there was a shift in how vowels were sounded.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist

--- In , "pneville49"
<pneville49@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are
wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard
was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as
such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I
can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
>
> --- In , "Joan" u2nohoo@ wrote:
> >
> > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet
the
> > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though
he's
> > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the
south.
> > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> >
> > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > understand.
> >
> > Joan
> > ---
> > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on
an
> > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is
usually
> > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age.
The
> > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and
has
> > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old
now.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the
talent
> > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > >
> > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > To:
> > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > >> Annette
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: Joan
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > >> Subject: photo
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's the photo
> > > >>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > >> 10127\
> > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think
Moyers
> > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > I've
> > > >> seen.
> > > >>
> > > >> Joan
> > > >> ---
> > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
21st-century
> > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I stand corrected about Yorkshire. However he spent very little time in the south. Heard a track of the Appalachian accent, and sorry but I can`t agree that either English midlanders or northerners would have spoken that way in the 15th century. Shakespeare was very specific when writing for Captain Fluellen (a Welshman) in Henry V, and the Welsh accent he wrote is distinguishable today. OK, so there`s an 100 years difference between Shakespeare`s time and Richard`s time, but I don`t think colloquial accents would change that much in so short a period. Words and meanings yes, but accents no. But I`m no linguistic expert and I could be wrong. :-)

--- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> Well, he was a Yorkshireman only after he married Anne and E4 placed him
> in the north to act as his proxy. I did do a bit of research into what
> English might have sounded like in the late 15th-century and this led me
> to believe that it sounded more like what you'd hear in America's
> Appalachia. Give a listen to the audio files from The American Front
> Porch <http://ils.unc.edu/afporch/audio/audio.html> . People spelled
> words the way they heard them as there was no standardized spelling and
> there was a shift in how vowels were sounded.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
> --- In , "pneville49"
> <pneville49@> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are
> wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard
> was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as
> such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I
> can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
> >
> > --- In , "Joan" u2nohoo@ wrote:
> > >
> > > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet
> the
> > > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though
> he's
> > > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the
> south.
> > > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> > >
> > > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > > understand.
> > >
> > > Joan
> > > ---
> > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on
> an
> > > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is
> usually
> > > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age.
> The
> > > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and
> has
> > > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old
> now.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the
> talent
> > > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > > >
> > > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > > >> Annette
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: Joan
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > > >> Subject: photo
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Here's the photo
> > > > >>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > > >> 10127\
> > > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think
> Moyers
> > > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > > I've
> > > > >> seen.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Joan
> > > > >> ---
> > > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
> 21st-century
> > > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

I'm no expert either. I just went where my research took me. Because I
brought Richard III into the 21st-century in my book, I had to come up
with an accent. But I certainly could be wrong--it's just that I've been
hearing his voice the way I concocted it for a while now.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist

--- In , "pneville49"
<pneville49@...> wrote:
>
> I stand corrected about Yorkshire. However he spent very little time
in the south. Heard a track of the Appalachian accent, and sorry but I
can`t agree that either English midlanders or northerners would have
spoken that way in the 15th century. Shakespeare was very specific when
writing for Captain Fluellen (a Welshman) in Henry V, and the Welsh
accent he wrote is distinguishable today. OK, so there`s an 100 years
difference between Shakespeare`s time and Richard`s time, but I don`t
think colloquial accents would change that much in so short a period.
Words and meanings yes, but accents no. But I`m no linguistic expert and
I could be wrong. :-)
>
> --- In , "Joan" u2nohoo@ wrote:
> >
> > Well, he was a Yorkshireman only after he married Anne and E4 placed
him
> > in the north to act as his proxy. I did do a bit of research into
what
> > English might have sounded like in the late 15th-century and this
led me
> > to believe that it sounded more like what you'd hear in America's
> > Appalachia. Give a listen to the audio files from The American Front
> > Porch <http://ils.unc.edu/afporch/audio/audio.html> . People
spelled
> > words the way they heard them as there was no standardized spelling
and
> > there was a shift in how vowels were sounded.
> >
> > Joan
> > ---
> > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> >
> > --- In , "pneville49"
> > <pneville49@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents
are
> > wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century.
Richard
> > was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and
as
> > such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I
> > can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
> > >
> > > --- In , "Joan" u2nohoo@
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically
meet
> > the
> > > > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a
very
> > > > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even
though
> > he's
> > > > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from
the
> > south.
> > > > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets
of
> > > > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere
else. So
> > > > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American
south.
> > > >
> > > > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > > > understand.
> > > >
> > > > Joan
> > > > ---
> > > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
21st-century
> > > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > >
> > > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > > > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to
concentrate on
> > an
> > > > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is
> > usually
> > > > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE
Richard's
> > > > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play
him
> > > > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that
age.
> > The
> > > > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it
off is
> > > > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right,
and
> > has
> > > > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would
be
> > > > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too
old
> > now.
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor,
keanu
> > > > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the
> > talent
> > > > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > > > >
> > > > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would
be
> > > > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "Annette
Carson"
> > > > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > > > >> Annette
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >> From: Joan
> > > > > >> To:
> > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > > > >> Subject: photo
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Here's the photo
> > > > > >>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > > > >> 10127\
> > > > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I
think
> > Moyers
> > > > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any
actor
> > > > I've
> > > > > >> seen.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Joan
> > > > > >> ---
> > > > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
> > 21st-century
> > > > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction
Finalist
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

As I understand it the Appalachian accent is more akin to the Northern Ireland accent. Indeed I believe the Hill-billies are named after William of Orange, who is revered in certain parts of Ulster.

--- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> I'm no expert either. I just went where my research took me. Because I
> brought Richard III into the 21st-century in my book, I had to come up
> with an accent. But I certainly could be wrong--it's just that I've been
> hearing his voice the way I concocted it for a while now.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
> --- In , "pneville49"
> <pneville49@> wrote:
> >
> > I stand corrected about Yorkshire. However he spent very little time
> in the south. Heard a track of the Appalachian accent, and sorry but I
> can`t agree that either English midlanders or northerners would have
> spoken that way in the 15th century. Shakespeare was very specific when
> writing for Captain Fluellen (a Welshman) in Henry V, and the Welsh
> accent he wrote is distinguishable today. OK, so there`s an 100 years
> difference between Shakespeare`s time and Richard`s time, but I don`t
> think colloquial accents would change that much in so short a period.
> Words and meanings yes, but accents no. But I`m no linguistic expert and
> I could be wrong. :-)
> >
> > --- In , "Joan" u2nohoo@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, he was a Yorkshireman only after he married Anne and E4 placed
> him
> > > in the north to act as his proxy. I did do a bit of research into
> what
> > > English might have sounded like in the late 15th-century and this
> led me
> > > to believe that it sounded more like what you'd hear in America's
> > > Appalachia. Give a listen to the audio files from The American Front
> > > Porch <http://ils.unc.edu/afporch/audio/audio.html> . People
> spelled
> > > words the way they heard them as there was no standardized spelling
> and
> > > there was a shift in how vowels were sounded.
> > >
> > > Joan
> > > ---
> > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > >
> > > --- In , "pneville49"
> > > <pneville49@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents
> are
> > > wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century.
> Richard
> > > was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and
> as
> > > such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I
> > > can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Joan" u2nohoo@
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically
> meet
> > > the
> > > > > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a
> very
> > > > > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even
> though
> > > he's
> > > > > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from
> the
> > > south.
> > > > > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets
> of
> > > > > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere
> else. So
> > > > > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American
> south.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > > > > understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > Joan
> > > > > ---
> > > > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
> 21st-century
> > > > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > > > > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to
> concentrate on
> > > an
> > > > > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is
> > > usually
> > > > > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE
> Richard's
> > > > > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play
> him
> > > > > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that
> age.
> > > The
> > > > > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it
> off is
> > > > > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right,
> and
> > > has
> > > > > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would
> be
> > > > > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > > > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > > > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too
> old
> > > now.
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor,
> keanu
> > > > > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the
> > > talent
> > > > > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would
> be
> > > > > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "Annette
> Carson"
> > > > > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > > > > >> Annette
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >> From: Joan
> > > > > > >> To:
> > > > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > > > > >> Subject: photo
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Here's the photo
> > > > > > >>
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > > > > >> 10127\
> > > > > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I
> think
> > > Moyers
> > > > > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any
> actor
> > > > > I've
> > > > > > >> seen.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Joan
> > > > > > >> ---
> > > > > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
> > > 21st-century
> > > > > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction
> Finalist
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

I recall that Richard grew up in Warwick's castle at Middleham in Yorkshire, along with the young Anne Neville. However, whether that would have given him a Yorkshire accent is another matter - while the servants would have had the regional accent (which Richard would have therefore heard and been familiar with, and could probably have spoken on occasion) the nobles would most likely have had a recognisable upper-class accent much as they do to this day.

Richard G

--- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> Well, he was a Yorkshireman only after he married Anne and E4 placed him
> in the north to act as his proxy. I did do a bit of research into what
> English might have sounded like in the late 15th-century and this led me
> to believe that it sounded more like what you'd hear in America's
> Appalachia. Give a listen to the audio files from The American Front
> Porch <http://ils.unc.edu/afporch/audio/audio.html> . People spelled
> words the way they heard them as there was no standardized spelling and
> there was a shift in how vowels were sounded.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
> --- In , "pneville49"
> <pneville49@> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are
> wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard
> was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as
> such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I
> can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
> >
> > --- In , "Joan" u2nohoo@ wrote:
> > >
> > > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet
> the
> > > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though
> he's
> > > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the
> south.
> > > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> > >
> > > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > > understand.
> > >
> > > Joan
> > > ---
> > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on
> an
> > > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is
> usually
> > > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age.
> The
> > > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and
> has
> > > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old
> now.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the
> talent
> > > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > > >
> > > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > > >> Annette
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: Joan
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > > >> Subject: photo
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Here's the photo
> > > > >>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > > >> 10127\
> > > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think
> Moyers
> > > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > > I've
> > > > >> seen.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Joan
> > > > >> ---
> > > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
> 21st-century
> > > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

.it is not accurate to say that Anne Neville grew up at Middleham: she spent
many years at Warwick Castle and in Calais...



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 9:30 AM
To:
Subject: Yorkshire (was photo)





I recall that Richard grew up in Warwick's castle at Middleham in Yorkshire,
along with the young Anne Neville. However, whether that would have given
him a Yorkshire accent is another matter - while the servants would have had
the regional accent (which Richard would have therefore heard and been
familiar with, and could probably have spoken on occasion) the nobles would
most likely have had a recognisable upper-class accent much as they do to
this day.

Richard G

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Joan" <u2nohoo@...>
wrote:
>
> Well, he was a Yorkshireman only after he married Anne and E4 placed him
> in the north to act as his proxy. I did do a bit of research into what
> English might have sounded like in the late 15th-century and this led me
> to believe that it sounded more like what you'd hear in America's
> Appalachia. Give a listen to the audio files from The American Front
> Porch <http://ils.unc.edu/afporch/audio/audio.html> . People spelled
> words the way they heard them as there was no standardized spelling and
> there was a shift in how vowels were sounded.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "pneville49"
> <pneville49@> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are
> wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard
> was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as
> such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I
> can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Joan" u2nohoo@ wrote:
> > >
> > > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet
> the
> > > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though
> he's
> > > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the
> south.
> > > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> > >
> > > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > > understand.
> > >
> > > Joan
> > > ---
> > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > >
> > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Paul Trevor Bale
> > > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on
> an
> > > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is
> usually
> > > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age.
> The
> > > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and
> has
> > > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old
> now.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the
> talent
> > > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > > >
> > > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Annette Carson"
> > > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > > >> Annette
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: Joan
> > > > >> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > > >> Subject: photo
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Here's the photo
> > > > >>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > > >> 10127\
> > > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think
> Moyers
> > > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > > I've
> > > > >> seen.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Joan
> > > > >> ---
> > > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
> 21st-century
> > > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Hello all,

I'm sorry I missed all this about Richard's speech patterns first time round. I'd just like to back up what Paul has said here. I did study some linguistics, and the history of the English language, for my degree, but that was many ages of the world ago so my apologies if I am wrong. I'm sorry this is going to be rather long, but's it's an interesting subject.

Anyway, maybe the theory that 15th-century English speech resembled modern Appalachian is based on:-

1) The fact that the Appalachian dialect has been claimed to be a survival of the speech of the earliest American colonists; and

2) That these early colonists would have spoken Early Modern English, a phase of the language characterised by the Great Vowel Shift, which shift began about 1450.

It seems reasonable on the surface, but sadly I don't think myself that it is likely to be the case.

1) As regards the first point, that Appalachian is really archaic is seemingly no longer the accepted wisdom. This is a cut & paste from the Wikipedia article on the dialect:-
"Beliefs about Appalachia's isolation led to the early suggestion that the dialect was a surviving relic of long-forgotten forms of English.[50] The most enduring of these early theories suggested that the Appalachian dialect was a remnant of Elizabethan English, a theory popularized by Berea College president William Goddell Frost in the late 1800s.[51] However, while Shakespearean words occasionally appear in Appalachian speech (e.g., afeared), these occurrences are rare.[52] Most European speech patterns and vocabulary that occur in Appalachian English come from the greater British Isles, rather than just England itself.[53]
The earliest settlers in Southern Appalachia, who arrived in the region in the 18th and early 19th centuries, came primarily from the Anglo-Scottish Border country[54] and other areas bordering the Irish Sea.[54] A great number came from Ulster in Ireland, although these were typically resettled Lowland Scots— known as Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots— rather than actual Irish.[55] The English dialect of these settlers formed the core of what would later develop into Appalachian English.[56]"
Having read the rest of the article, including the examples of pronunciation and dialect words, I have to say that the pronunciations – particularly of vowel sounds - are very different from what has been reconstructed for 15th-century English, and that the only dialect words listed which would have been in use in 15th-century England – such as `afeared' and `yonder' - remained a feature of many dialects well into the 20th century.

Actually, Appalachian is not alone in having been held up as a survival of ancient forms. I have heard it claimed (equally inaccurately) that Dublin English is the English of Chaucer, and I have a friend who has recently written his MA thesis on the (sadly, less-than-mellifluous) Black Country dialect of the English West Midlands as a survival of Early Middle English! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry/content/articles/2006/11/29/black_country_dialect_academic_feature.shtml )

As regards the archaism of various types of American English, I was far more impressed with Mishka's link on the forum this time last year to recordings of people of Tangier Island, Virginia. I couldn't follow what the men in the bar were talking about, but they sounded so East Anglian, not very American at all – that slow, flat, side-to-side, flap-flap rhythm is so distinctive. Their ancestors apparently came over in the 1680s, much earlier than the Appalachians. I did a bit of googling and discovered that their pronunciations do indeed show similarities to the 20th-century Norfolk dialect (now, sadly, dying out). Even so, this is still not 15th-century English.

3) As regards the second point, Early Modern English is, of course, like all the historical divisions of the language, one of convenience. Language is constantly in flux, and the Great Vowel Shift did not take place over night; it is thought to have begun about 1450 and to have been completed by about 1650; this is not to say that vowel sounds have been totally fixed since c.1650, only that major changes took place over this 200-year period. The first half century of the Shift (ie the English of 1450 to 1500) is more often than not still ranked as Middle English rather than Early Modern as the pronunciations, although changing, were still much closer to the medieval values than to those of modern English – and because, in any case, the Shift began in the South and during the 15th century probably made little or no impact on northern speech patterns. Even today, the biggest differences between southern and northern English pronunciations relate to vowel sounds.

It's maybe also worth reminding ourselves that, in any case, `dialect' and `accent' are not interchangeable terms. A dialect needs to have distinctive vocabulary and (usually) grammar, not just a distinctive pronunciation. Not all these aspects of a language may change together, so you could in theory have a dialect that included grammar and vocab from an earlier era, but which no longer had the same general sound.

So what do I think Richard sounded like? Well, we have plenty of written material from the period so we know a lot about the vocabulary and grammar of the English spoken in his day. Speech patterns varied from area to area, and there were big differences between northern and southern English, northern English being heavily influenced by Norse. Anybody wanting a general feel could do worse than read Malory (a West Midlander) or the Paston Letters.
As regards pronunciation, here is a link to a chart of the Great Vowel Shift, using phonetic alphabet:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift

Phonetic alphabet:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

A few things I've noticed myself in transcribing 15th-century documents are:-
1) people from the South-West and West Midlands often wrote `w' instead of `wh'.
2) There was some confusion between stand-alone `u' and `i'. Eg, John Hugford is also John Hygford or Higford; cushions were sometimes cusshones (or similar), but more often they were quysshones! I seem to recall that in Chaucer's time `u' was pronounced as in modern French, which is, indeed, something between an oo and an ee.
3) Southerners often wrote `ar' for `er'.
4) Final `e' (the vestige of Old English case endings) was still used a fair bit – it was pronounced a bit like a nondescript 'a', as is modern German.
5) Plural ending was written, and therefore pronounced, `-es' or 'is' – I think I have only ever come across about one example of plain `-s'.
6) Letter `r' was still always pronounced at the end of a syllable – unlike modern RP English or Southern USA.

Some examples:
In 1450 `new' was still pronounced with an e+u diphthong as it is spelt, but by 1500 was i+u as in modern English.
In the same period, `house' changed from `hooss' to something like `hoe-ooss'.
`East' was like `ayst', and `be' like `bay' (`bay' being pronounced `bye').
Moon went from `moan' or `moana' (it was usually spelt `mone') to moon(a).
Stone would have been like `storn' with silent r, as it still is pronounced in the north of England.

The general consensus when I was a student was that there was as yet no upper-class accent, and that when it developed it did so from London English. None the less, the uppers seems to have used a fairly standard written form of the language and must have been able to communicate with each other. I guess Richard would have spoken fairly standard southern court English, but since he spent so much time in the North his speech may have been a little more conservative than that of many other young noblemen of the time.

Marie


--- In , "pneville49" <pneville49@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
>
> --- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@> wrote:
> >
> > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet the
> > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though he's
> > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the south.
> > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> >
> > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > understand.
> >
> > Joan
> > ---
> > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
> > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
> > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
> > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
> > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > >
> > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > To:
> > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > >> Annette
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: Joan
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > >> Subject: photo
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's the photo
> > > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > >> 10127\
> > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > I've
> > > >> seen.
> > > >>
> > > >> Joan
> > > >> ---
> > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> I guess Richard would have spoken fairly standard southern court English, but since he spent so much time in the North his speech may have been a little more conservative than that of many other young noblemen of the time.
>
> Marie


I am not good with accents, much less dialects. I tried to watch a British mystery series which was set in Yorkshire. I was immediately lost in "whaddhesay?" land. One character was railing about something as he slammed around his kitchen making breakfast, but for the life of me, I couldn't tell if his girfriend had run away with a sailor, or if he had lost his car keys, or if someone had been murdered and he was being framed for it.

Katy

I know what you mean. A friend and I once travelled through the Yorkshire Dales
(sorry, it was before my interest in Richard had developed and I missed much).
One night we stayed at a B&B on a farm and we could not understand what the lady
of the house said to us. Whenever she was out of earshot, we would ask each
other asking 'what did she say?' Living in the South we were much more
accustomed to Estuary English.

I would also like to thank Marie for her thorough explanation of the Great Vowel
Shift. I did my MA thesis on English Dialects (half vowels 'j-' and 'w') and it
brought back many memories.

Cheers, Dorothea




________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 8:41:36 AM
Subject: Re: photo




--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> I
guess Richard would have spoken fairly standard southern court English, but
since he spent so much time in the North his speech may have been a little more
conservative than that of many other young noblemen of the time.
>
> Marie

I am not good with accents, much less dialects. I tried to watch a British
mystery series which was set in Yorkshire. I was immediately lost in
"whaddhesay?" land. One character was railing about something as he slammed
around his kitchen making breakfast, but for the life of me, I couldn't tell if
his girfriend had run away with a sailor, or if he had lost his car keys, or if
someone had been murdered and he was being framed for it.

Katy

--- In , Dorothea Preis <dorotheapreis@...> wrote:
>
>
> I would also like to thank Marie for her thorough explanation of the Great Vowel
> Shift.

Me, too.

Marie, would Richard have spoken and understood French also? I would assume so.
>

Katy

Thanks Marie, you always write the most interesting comments.

--- On Mon, 10/4/10, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:


From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: photo
To:
Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:52 AM


 





Hello all,

I'm sorry I missed all this about Richard's speech patterns first time round. I'd just like to back up what Paul has said here. I did study some linguistics, and the history of the English language, for my degree, but that was many ages of the world ago so my apologies if I am wrong. I'm sorry this is going to be rather long, but's it's an interesting subject.

Anyway, maybe the theory that 15th-century English speech resembled modern Appalachian is based on:-

1) The fact that the Appalachian dialect has been claimed to be a survival of the speech of the earliest American colonists; and

2) That these early colonists would have spoken Early Modern English, a phase of the language characterised by the Great Vowel Shift, which shift began about 1450.

It seems reasonable on the surface, but sadly I don't think myself that it is likely to be the case.

1) As regards the first point, that Appalachian is really archaic is seemingly no longer the accepted wisdom. This is a cut & paste from the Wikipedia article on the dialect:-
"Beliefs about Appalachia's isolation led to the early suggestion that the dialect was a surviving relic of long-forgotten forms of English.[50] The most enduring of these early theories suggested that the Appalachian dialect was a remnant of Elizabethan English, a theory popularized by Berea College president William Goddell Frost in the late 1800s.[51] However, while Shakespearean words occasionally appear in Appalachian speech (e.g., afeared), these occurrences are rare.[52] Most European speech patterns and vocabulary that occur in Appalachian English come from the greater British Isles, rather than just England itself.[53]
The earliest settlers in Southern Appalachia, who arrived in the region in the 18th and early 19th centuries, came primarily from the Anglo-Scottish Border country[54] and other areas bordering the Irish Sea.[54] A great number came from Ulster in Ireland, although these were typically resettled Lowland Scots known as Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots rather than actual Irish.[55] The English dialect of these settlers formed the core of what would later develop into Appalachian English.[56]"
Having read the rest of the article, including the examples of pronunciation and dialect words, I have to say that the pronunciations  particularly of vowel sounds - are very different from what has been reconstructed for 15th-century English, and that the only dialect words listed which would have been in use in 15th-century England  such as `afeared' and `yonder' - remained a feature of many dialects well into the 20th century.

Actually, Appalachian is not alone in having been held up as a survival of ancient forms. I have heard it claimed (equally inaccurately) that Dublin English is the English of Chaucer, and I have a friend who has recently written his MA thesis on the (sadly, less-than-mellifluous) Black Country dialect of the English West Midlands as a survival of Early Middle English! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry/content/articles/2006/11/29/black_country_dialect_academic_feature.shtml )

As regards the archaism of various types of American English, I was far more impressed with Mishka's link on the forum this time last year to recordings of people of Tangier Island, Virginia. I couldn't follow what the men in the bar were talking about, but they sounded so East Anglian, not very American at all  that slow, flat, side-to-side, flap-flap rhythm is so distinctive. Their ancestors apparently came over in the 1680s, much earlier than the Appalachians. I did a bit of googling and discovered that their pronunciations do indeed show similarities to the 20th-century Norfolk dialect (now, sadly, dying out). Even so, this is still not 15th-century English.

3) As regards the second point, Early Modern English is, of course, like all the historical divisions of the language, one of convenience. Language is constantly in flux, and the Great Vowel Shift did not take place over night; it is thought to have begun about 1450 and to have been completed by about 1650; this is not to say that vowel sounds have been totally fixed since c.1650, only that major changes took place over this 200-year period. The first half century of the Shift (ie the English of 1450 to 1500) is more often than not still ranked as Middle English rather than Early Modern as the pronunciations, although changing, were still much closer to the medieval values than to those of modern English  and because, in any case, the Shift began in the South and during the 15th century probably made little or no impact on northern speech patterns. Even today, the biggest differences between southern and northern English pronunciations relate to vowel
sounds.

It's maybe also worth reminding ourselves that, in any case, `dialect' and `accent' are not interchangeable terms. A dialect needs to have distinctive vocabulary and (usually) grammar, not just a distinctive pronunciation. Not all these aspects of a language may change together, so you could in theory have a dialect that included grammar and vocab from an earlier era, but which no longer had the same general sound.

So what do I think Richard sounded like? Well, we have plenty of written material from the period so we know a lot about the vocabulary and grammar of the English spoken in his day. Speech patterns varied from area to area, and there were big differences between northern and southern English, northern English being heavily influenced by Norse. Anybody wanting a general feel could do worse than read Malory (a West Midlander) or the Paston Letters.
As regards pronunciation, here is a link to a chart of the Great Vowel Shift, using phonetic alphabet:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift

Phonetic alphabet:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet

A few things I've noticed myself in transcribing 15th-century documents are:-
1) people from the South-West and West Midlands often wrote `w' instead of `wh'.
2) There was some confusion between stand-alone `u' and `i'. Eg, John Hugford is also John Hygford or Higford; cushions were sometimes cusshones (or similar), but more often they were quysshones! I seem to recall that in Chaucer's time `u' was pronounced as in modern French, which is, indeed, something between an oo and an ee.
3) Southerners often wrote `ar' for `er'.
4) Final `e' (the vestige of Old English case endings) was still used a fair bit  it was pronounced a bit like a nondescript 'a', as is modern German.
5) Plural ending was written, and therefore pronounced, `-es' or 'is'  I think I have only ever come across about one example of plain `-s'.
6) Letter `r' was still always pronounced at the end of a syllable  unlike modern RP English or Southern USA.

Some examples:
In 1450 `new' was still pronounced with an e+u diphthong as it is spelt, but by 1500 was i+u as in modern English.
In the same period, `house' changed from `hooss' to something like `hoe-ooss'.
`East' was like `ayst', and `be' like `bay' (`bay' being pronounced `bye').
Moon went from `moan' or `moana' (it was usually spelt `mone') to moon(a).
Stone would have been like `storn' with silent r, as it still is pronounced in the north of England.

The general consensus when I was a student was that there was as yet no upper-class accent, and that when it developed it did so from London English. None the less, the uppers seems to have used a fairly standard written form of the language and must have been able to communicate with each other. I guess Richard would have spoken fairly standard southern court English, but since he spent so much time in the North his speech may have been a little more conservative than that of many other young noblemen of the time.

Marie

--- In , "pneville49" <pneville49@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
>
> --- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@> wrote:
> >
> > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet the
> > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though he's
> > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the south.
> > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> >
> > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > understand.
> >
> > Joan
> > ---
> > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
> > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
> > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
> > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
> > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > >
> > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > >
> > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > To:
> > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > >> Annette
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: Joan
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > >> Subject: photo
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Here's the photo
> > > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > >> 10127\
> > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > I've
> > > >> seen.
> > > >>
> > > >> Joan
> > > >> ---
> > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Thanks, everybody. I'm glad you found it interesting - I had worried it would bore you all to death.

I've thought of another couple of examples of the u/i confusion - scullery being spelt squillery. Also, 'sister' was ALWAYS 'suster' in Richard's day.

In addition to the differences in vowel sounds, of course, we still pronounced some consonants back then that are now silent - for instance, gh was like ch in loch. Knight would have sounded like ka-neecht. Gnash like ga-nash, etc.

And I wouldn't like to give the impression I can understand anybody's dialect - I can't, but I have lived in the north and the south so I suppose that gives me a bit of a head start. I still remember having to put on a fake Postman Pat accent for the benefit of the taxi driver when I first arrived in the North, because he couldn't make out where I wanted to go.

Marie

--- In , Vickie Cook <lolettecook@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Marie, you always write the most interesting comments.
>
> --- On Mon, 10/4/10, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: photo
> To:
> Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 10:52 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> I'm sorry I missed all this about Richard's speech patterns first time round. I'd just like to back up what Paul has said here. I did study some linguistics, and the history of the English language, for my degree, but that was many ages of the world ago so my apologies if I am wrong. I'm sorry this is going to be rather long, but's it's an interesting subject.
>
> Anyway, maybe the theory that 15th-century English speech resembled modern Appalachian is based on:-
>
> 1) The fact that the Appalachian dialect has been claimed to be a survival of the speech of the earliest American colonists; and
>
> 2) That these early colonists would have spoken Early Modern English, a phase of the language characterised by the Great Vowel Shift, which shift began about 1450.
>
> It seems reasonable on the surface, but sadly I don't think myself that it is likely to be the case.
>
> 1) As regards the first point, that Appalachian is really archaic is seemingly no longer the accepted wisdom. This is a cut & paste from the Wikipedia article on the dialect:-
> "Beliefs about Appalachia's isolation led to the early suggestion that the dialect was a surviving relic of long-forgotten forms of English.[50] The most enduring of these early theories suggested that the Appalachian dialect was a remnant of Elizabethan English, a theory popularized by Berea College president William Goddell Frost in the late 1800s.[51] However, while Shakespearean words occasionally appear in Appalachian speech (e.g., afeared), these occurrences are rare.[52] Most European speech patterns and vocabulary that occur in Appalachian English come from the greater British Isles, rather than just England itself.[53]
> The earliest settlers in Southern Appalachia, who arrived in the region in the 18th and early 19th centuries, came primarily from the Anglo-Scottish Border country[54] and other areas bordering the Irish Sea.[54] A great number came from Ulster in Ireland, although these were typically resettled Lowland Scotsâ€" known as Scots-Irish or Ulster Scotsâ€" rather than actual Irish.[55] The English dialect of these settlers formed the core of what would later develop into Appalachian English.[56]"
> Having read the rest of the article, including the examples of pronunciation and dialect words, I have to say that the pronunciations â€" particularly of vowel sounds - are very different from what has been reconstructed for 15th-century English, and that the only dialect words listed which would have been in use in 15th-century England â€" such as `afeared' and `yonder' - remained a feature of many dialects well into the 20th century.
>
> Actually, Appalachian is not alone in having been held up as a survival of ancient forms. I have heard it claimed (equally inaccurately) that Dublin English is the English of Chaucer, and I have a friend who has recently written his MA thesis on the (sadly, less-than-mellifluous) Black Country dialect of the English West Midlands as a survival of Early Middle English! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry/content/articles/2006/11/29/black_country_dialect_academic_feature.shtml )
>
> As regards the archaism of various types of American English, I was far more impressed with Mishka's link on the forum this time last year to recordings of people of Tangier Island, Virginia. I couldn't follow what the men in the bar were talking about, but they sounded so East Anglian, not very American at all â€" that slow, flat, side-to-side, flap-flap rhythm is so distinctive. Their ancestors apparently came over in the 1680s, much earlier than the Appalachians. I did a bit of googling and discovered that their pronunciations do indeed show similarities to the 20th-century Norfolk dialect (now, sadly, dying out). Even so, this is still not 15th-century English.
>
> 3) As regards the second point, Early Modern English is, of course, like all the historical divisions of the language, one of convenience. Language is constantly in flux, and the Great Vowel Shift did not take place over night; it is thought to have begun about 1450 and to have been completed by about 1650; this is not to say that vowel sounds have been totally fixed since c.1650, only that major changes took place over this 200-year period. The first half century of the Shift (ie the English of 1450 to 1500) is more often than not still ranked as Middle English rather than Early Modern as the pronunciations, although changing, were still much closer to the medieval values than to those of modern English â€" and because, in any case, the Shift began in the South and during the 15th century probably made little or no impact on northern speech patterns. Even today, the biggest differences between southern and northern English pronunciations relate to vowel
> sounds.
>
> It's maybe also worth reminding ourselves that, in any case, `dialect' and `accent' are not interchangeable terms. A dialect needs to have distinctive vocabulary and (usually) grammar, not just a distinctive pronunciation. Not all these aspects of a language may change together, so you could in theory have a dialect that included grammar and vocab from an earlier era, but which no longer had the same general sound.
>
> So what do I think Richard sounded like? Well, we have plenty of written material from the period so we know a lot about the vocabulary and grammar of the English spoken in his day. Speech patterns varied from area to area, and there were big differences between northern and southern English, northern English being heavily influenced by Norse. Anybody wanting a general feel could do worse than read Malory (a West Midlander) or the Paston Letters.
> As regards pronunciation, here is a link to a chart of the Great Vowel Shift, using phonetic alphabet:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift
>
> Phonetic alphabet:-
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet
>
> A few things I've noticed myself in transcribing 15th-century documents are:-
> 1) people from the South-West and West Midlands often wrote `w' instead of `wh'.
> 2) There was some confusion between stand-alone `u' and `i'. Eg, John Hugford is also John Hygford or Higford; cushions were sometimes cusshones (or similar), but more often they were quysshones! I seem to recall that in Chaucer's time `u' was pronounced as in modern French, which is, indeed, something between an oo and an ee.
> 3) Southerners often wrote `ar' for `er'.
> 4) Final `e' (the vestige of Old English case endings) was still used a fair bit â€" it was pronounced a bit like a nondescript 'a', as is modern German.
> 5) Plural ending was written, and therefore pronounced, `-es' or 'is' â€" I think I have only ever come across about one example of plain `-s'.
> 6) Letter `r' was still always pronounced at the end of a syllable â€" unlike modern RP English or Southern USA.
>
> Some examples:
> In 1450 `new' was still pronounced with an e+u diphthong as it is spelt, but by 1500 was i+u as in modern English.
> In the same period, `house' changed from `hooss' to something like `hoe-ooss'.
> `East' was like `ayst', and `be' like `bay' (`bay' being pronounced `bye').
> Moon went from `moan' or `moana' (it was usually spelt `mone') to moon(a).
> Stone would have been like `storn' with silent r, as it still is pronounced in the north of England.
>
> The general consensus when I was a student was that there was as yet no upper-class accent, and that when it developed it did so from London English. None the less, the uppers seems to have used a fairly standard written form of the language and must have been able to communicate with each other. I guess Richard would have spoken fairly standard southern court English, but since he spent so much time in the North his speech may have been a little more conservative than that of many other young noblemen of the time.
>
> Marie
>
> --- In , "pneville49" <pneville49@> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure I agree with you about the accent Joan. English accents are wide and varied as I`m quite sure they were in the 15th century. Richard was a Yorkshireman not atuned to even English southern accents, and as such he would have had a very distinctive accent. An accent which I can`t imagine would be too different today from what it was then.
> >
> > --- In , "Joan" <u2nohoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > That's why I like Stephen Moyers. Not only does he physically meet the
> > > criteria in appearance and height, but he's also under 40 and a very
> > > good actor, from what I can see of him in True Blood. Even though he's
> > > English, he does an excellent job of playing an American from the south.
> > > From what I understand, some pure accents from isolated pockets of
> > > Appalachia are closer to 16th-century English than anywhere else. So
> > > Richard may well have sounded like someone from the American south.
> > >
> > > Not that I have any connections to Moyers--just my opinion, you
> > > understand.
> > >
> > > Joan
> > > ---
> > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> > > <paul.bale@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Many suggestions for actors to play Richard seem to concentrate on an
> > > > image of an actor to play the Skahespeare lead, where he is usually
> > > > played middle aged. LEAD IN A SHAKESPEARE VERSION WHERE Richard's
> > > > active life ran from the age of 16 - 32 so any actor to play him
> > > > must be able to look 16 at the start, or else be around that age. The
> > > > number who can do the emotions and has the range to pull it off is
> > > > not numerous. I have one in y sights who is physically right, and has
> > > > the range. naturally I am not revealing his name, but he would be
> > > > amazing in the role if I can get him!
> > > > Much as I love Keanu, and I am a fan, I have never thought him
> > > > capable of pulling it off, and as roselyn says, he is far too old now.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 17 Aug 2010, at 20:57, fayre rose wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > let's throw in my favourite richard iii look-a-like actor, keanu
> > > > > reeves. he has the money to produce any r3 project and the talent
> > > > > to bring richard to life. although, he is getting older.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm98211072/nm0000206
> > > > >
> > > > > roslyn - from the west coast of canada
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Tue, 8/17/10, pneville49 pneville49@ wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: pneville49 pneville49@
> > > > > Subject: Re: photo
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Received: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 1:15 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree, but I`ve often thought that Steven Mackintosh would be
> > > > > good candidate for playng Richard.
> > > > > http://www.imdb.com/media/rm497586688/nm0533599
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Annette Carson"
> > > > > ajcarson@ wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Heavens, Joan, what an amazing likeness!
> > > > >> Annette
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: Joan
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 5:38 PM
> > > > >> Subject: photo
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Here's the photo
> > > > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//photos/album/
> > > > >> 10127\
> > > > >> 7791/pic/list> I just put up of Moyers & npgRichard. I think Moyers
> > > > >> comes the closest to Richard's portrait in the NPG of any actor
> > > I've
> > > > >> seen.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Joan
> > > > >> ---
> > > > >> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > > >> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > >> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > >> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > >> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
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> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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