Richard`s issue?

Richard III had only one legitimate child (Edward 1476-1484),
but he also had (allegedly seven) illegitimate children by
unknown mistresses:

1. John of Gloucester -- (c.1470-1499). Richard III made
him Captain of Calais when he was 15, referring to him as
'our dear bastard son'. Henry VII didn't imprison him, he
gave him a pension of £20. But he was apparently executed
or killed in 1491 or 1499.

2. Richard Plantagenet -- (1469-1550). ???

3. Katherine Plantagenet (1471 - 1487) -- Married William
Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke in 1484. No issue.

3. Stephen Hawes [disputed] (? - d. 1523) -- Became a popular
Tudor poet. (Some of his poetry can be found online.)

4. Three other children. ???

Question. Does anyone know any more of R III`s issue, and who his other three unnamed children were?


Thanks...Paul (Neville)

Hi Paul,

Wow! I don't think I've ever heard of Richard having seven bastards before! Actually, there are only two in the records, John of Gloucester and Katherine.
There's been quite a lot of discussion of this subject on the forum in the past, so worth doing a search.

--- In , "pneville49" <pneville49@...> wrote:
>
> Richard III had only one legitimate child (Edward 1476-1484),
> but he also had (allegedly seven) illegitimate children by
> unknown mistresses:
>
> 1. John of Gloucester -- (c.1470-1499). Richard III made
> him Captain of Calais when he was 15, referring to him as
> 'our dear bastard son'. Henry VII didn't imprison him, he
> gave him a pension of £20. But he was apparently executed
> or killed in 1491 or 1499.

Also referred to in the records as John of Pomfret, so presumbly born at Pontefract.

>
> 2. Richard Plantagenet -- (1469-1550). ???

He occurs only in a much later legend which purports to explain the presence of the name Richard Plantagenet in the 16th century burial register of Eastwell in Kent. According to the story, which I'm sure you know, this RP was a bricklayer working on the new manor house who was a bit of a loner and occupied his spare time reading Latin. On being questioned, he told this story about having been brought up not knowing his parentage, until having it revealed to him just before Bosworth that he was King Richard's son. Hence he had hidden himself as a bricklayer. I personally think that a Latin-reading bricklayer of that period more likely to have been an ex monk - his employer, Moyle, the owner of Eastwell, had been a commissioner for the Dissolution of the monasteries and "RP" may have felt felt he couldn't admit the truth about himself. Equally, he may have been brought up not knowing his family (perhaps in a monastery), and fantasised about his origins. There is no logical reason why Richard would have acknowledged John and Katherine but not this one. Unfortunately, the early modern period has spawned a whole load of dubious legends regarding this period.

>
> 3. Katherine Plantagenet (1471 - 1487) -- Married William
> Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke in 1484. No issue.

We don't know when she died, only that Herbert (Earl of Huntingon by the time he married Kath) was a widower again when he attended the coronation of Elizabeth of York.
>
> 3. Stephen Hawes [disputed] (? - d. 1523) -- Became a popular
> Tudor poet. (Some of his poetry can be found online.)

I believe this is another legend without foundation.


>
> 4. Three other children. ???
I can only think of one other claimed bastard - again from a much later story, this time to explain a ring passed down as an heirloom by the Hoppers of Kent. This one was supposed to have been a daughter, but again there is no contemporary evidence to back the story up.

Marie

>
> Question. Does anyone know any more of R III`s issue, and who his other three unnamed children were?
>
>
> Thanks...Paul (Neville)
>

I too have not come upon any credible documentation that Richard had
more than two bastards, both of whom he acknowledged and treated well,
giving title and marriage contracts. It's generally thought that
Katherine died in 1485, but it is unknown as to whether she died before
or after Richard.

Based on how well he treated his acknowledged bastards, I think that if
there were more, that he wouldn't have known about them. The only one
that has any traction, as far as I can determine, is Richard of
Eastwell. But even if he was R3's son, I doubt that Richard knew about
him. In "The Lost Prince," Baldwin speculates that Richard of Eastwell
was really Richard of York, the younger prince.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935

--- In , mariewalsh2003
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Wow! I don't think I've ever heard of Richard having seven bastards
before! Actually, there are only two in the records, John of Gloucester
and Katherine.
> There's been quite a lot of discussion of this subject on the forum in
the past, so worth doing a search.
>
> --- In , "pneville49"
pneville49@ wrote:
> >
> > Richard III had only one legitimate child (Edward 1476-1484),
> > but he also had (allegedly seven) illegitimate children by
> > unknown mistresses:
> >
> > 1. John of Gloucester -- (c.1470-1499). Richard III made
> > him Captain of Calais when he was 15, referring to him as
> > 'our dear bastard son'. Henry VII didn't imprison him, he
> > gave him a pension of £20. But he was apparently executed
> > or killed in 1491 or 1499.
>
> Also referred to in the records as John of Pomfret, so presumbly born
at Pontefract.
>
> >
> > 2. Richard Plantagenet -- (1469-1550). ???
>
> He occurs only in a much later legend which purports to explain the
presence of the name Richard Plantagenet in the 16th century burial
register of Eastwell in Kent. According to the story, which I'm sure you
know, this RP was a bricklayer working on the new manor house who was a
bit of a loner and occupied his spare time reading Latin. On being
questioned, he told this story about having been brought up not knowing
his parentage, until having it revealed to him just before Bosworth that
he was King Richard's son. Hence he had hidden himself as a bricklayer.
I personally think that a Latin-reading bricklayer of that period more
likely to have been an ex monk - his employer, Moyle, the owner of
Eastwell, had been a commissioner for the Dissolution of the monasteries
and "RP" may have felt felt he couldn't admit the truth about himself.
Equally, he may have been brought up not knowing his family (perhaps in
a monastery), and fantasised about his origins. There is no logical
reason why Richard would have acknowledged John and Katherine but not
this one. Unfortunately, the early modern period has spawned a whole
load of dubious legends regarding this period.
>
> >
> > 3. Katherine Plantagenet (1471 - 1487) -- Married William
> > Herbert, 2nd Earl of Pembroke in 1484. No issue.
>
> We don't know when she died, only that Herbert (Earl of Huntingon by
the time he married Kath) was a widower again when he attended the
coronation of Elizabeth of York.
> >
> > 3. Stephen Hawes [disputed] (? - d. 1523) -- Became a popular
> > Tudor poet. (Some of his poetry can be found online.)
>
> I believe this is another legend without foundation.
>
>
> >
> > 4. Three other children. ???
> I can only think of one other claimed bastard - again from a much
later story, this time to explain a ring passed down as an heirloom by
the Hoppers of Kent. This one was supposed to have been a daughter, but
again there is no contemporary evidence to back the story up.
>
> Marie
>
> >
> > Question. Does anyone know any more of R III`s issue, and who his
other three unnamed children were?
> >
> >
> > Thanks...Paul (Neville)
> >
>