Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??

Hello everyone,
I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??

I have something of an aptitude for cyber-genealogy and could investigate this but wasn't Elizabeth Wodville female? Spain had a Salic Law until the late 1700s when an early Bourbon abolished it to allow his daughter to succeed instead of his brother.

----- Original Message -----
From: gelloyd14
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:06 PM
Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??



Hello everyone,
I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??

PS Thanks again - Henry IV's full sisters married into the Portugese (and Spanish?) royal houses, where the true heirs to the Duchy of Lancaster lay.

----- Original Message -----
From: gelloyd14
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:06 PM
Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??



Hello everyone,
I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??

Dear all - aplogies for any repititions: I had sent this and the next post via my mailbox, but don't see it yet, and am therefore attempting to post directly in Yahoo:

-----Forwarded Message-----
>From: Maria <elena@...>
>Sent: Dec 9, 2010 10:47 AM
>To: ,
>Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
>
>That would interest me, too, and if you can shoot over the exact remark, I'd love to use it as a basis to go fishing. But which Spanish throne is an important question: in the fifteenth century, Spain wasn't a unified entity -- even at the marriage of Isabel and Fernando, Castile and Aragon remained separate kingdoms, with one spouse counting only as a consort in the other spouse's domain; one of the first factors that undercut Fernando after Isabel's death was the loss of authority in Castile. It wasn't until Charles inherited both Castile and Aragon that there could be a "Spanish" throne to inherit, as opposed to a Castilian or Aragonese one (and even then, through 99% of his reign, he had to include his mother Juana on official documents, despite his successful attempts to isolate and degrade her).
>
>Isabel's grandmother was Catherine of Lancaster, daughter of John of Gaunt. Is there an established genetic link between John of Gaunt and the Woodvilles? That would be the most plausible link, but it would still be iffy compared to other claims. Are we pushing further back in time to before the Trastamara take-over from Pedro "the Cruel"? I'd have to check on this, but I believe that most, if not all, of Castilian and Aragonese rulers during and before this event tended to marry fellow Castilian/Aragonese/Portuguese mates. There may be something there for the Woodvilles to claim, but it would still be pretty cloudy.
>
>Just for fun, here's some extra input:
>Both Isabel (born 1451) and Fernando (born 1452) had the same paternal background: her grandfather was Enrique III ("the Ailing") (1379-1406), and Fernando's grandfather was Enrique's much more energetic younger brother, Fernando de Antequera (1380-1416). Fernando de Antequera was elected as king of Aragon in 1412 after the death without legitimate issue of Martin I of Aragon.
>
>Since Aragon observed Salic Law, and didn't recognize female succession (until Isabel twisted their arms after the death of her own only son), we don't have to really peek very much at Fernando's maternal background, but he was the product of his father's second marriage, to Juana Enriquez (1425-1468), a brilliant Valencian aristocrat. Much of Aragonese activity involved papa Juan II (1398-1479) fighting the children of his first marriage (Carlos of Viana; Leonor; and Blanca) in order to position Fernando on the Aragonese throne.
>
>Carlos married Anne of Cleves (not *that* one ...!) but had no children by her; Leonor married Gaston de Foix (but again, any issue by her would be ignored by Aragonese law); Blanca married the ill-fated Enrique IV of Castile, had no children, was divorced, returne to Aragon, was imprisoned by her lovely sister and eventually possibly poisoned by her. So issue from Juan II's first marriage is pretty much out of the picture for Elizabeth Woodville. Probably then, we're not considering Aragonese inheritance at all, but Castilian.
>
>Would be very interested in seeing this remark!
>
>Maria
>elena@...


--- In , "gelloyd14" <gelloyd14@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>

Aragon observed Salic Law, but Castile did not, which is how Isabel of Castile was able to become a queen regnant (and if she had lost her long battle, her victor would still have been a female, Juana "la Beltraneja", daughter of either Enrique IV of Castile or one of his favorites, Beltran de la Cueva); and how Isabel's daughter Juana was able to inherit Castile in her own name.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I have something of an aptitude for cyber-genealogy and could investigate this but wasn't Elizabeth Wodville female? Spain had a Salic Law until the late 1700s when an early Bourbon abolished it to allow his daughter to succeed instead of his brother.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gelloyd14
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:06 PM
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi all - Henry IV's sister Philippa married Joao I of Portugal; it was his half-sister, Catherine of Lancaster who married into the Castilian line becoming the wife of Enrique III of Castile. Their son, Juan II of Castile was the father of Isabel of Castile.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> PS Thanks again - Henry IV's full sisters married into the Portugese (and Spanish?) royal houses, where the true heirs to the Duchy of Lancaster lay.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gelloyd14
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:06 PM
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Didn't Charles, Duke of Burgundy, inherit the Lancastrian claim to the throne through his mother, Isabella of Portugal, who was a descendant of Philippa of Lancaster?

--- On Thu, 9/12/10, ejbronte_11210 <ejbronte@...> wrote:


From: ejbronte_11210 <ejbronte@...>
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
To:
Date: Thursday, 9 December, 2010, 18:00


 



Hi all - Henry IV's sister Philippa married Joao I of Portugal; it was his half-sister, Catherine of Lancaster who married into the Castilian line becoming the wife of Enrique III of Castile. Their son, Juan II of Castile was the father of Isabel of Castile.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> PS Thanks again - Henry IV's full sisters married into the Portugese (and Spanish?) royal houses, where the true heirs to the Duchy of Lancaster lay.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gelloyd14
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:06 PM
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
 
had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
 
this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon. the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
 
maybe salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half brother henry.
 
a major consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
 
woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for e4 to marry the then 13 year old isabella, when he and woodville were secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't have too many nice words for woodville either.
 
isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of gaunt's beaufort children.
 
e3
/
john of gaunt m. constance of castile
/
catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
 
e3
/
john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
/
phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her mother's father..
 
one can see how the tudor's worked to consolidate their hold on the english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and h8 successively married katherine of aragon, a daughter of isabella and ferdinand.
 
roslyn

--- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...> wrote:


From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...>
Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
To:
Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM


 



Hello everyone,
I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??

Hi all - regarding Salic Law and Castile - no, there was no change in the law before or after Isabel's succession as queen regnant. The idea of either Isabel or Juana "la Beltraneja" coming into power after the deaths of young Alfonso and Enrique IV was never contested on the grounds of gender, only on the grounds of just claim.

A situation not dissimilar to the Wars of the Roses was going in Castile in that young Alfonso was claiming the throne of Castile and so was Enrique IV. During the course of the conflict, young Alfonso died suddenly, either from bacteria ingested from eating trout; from a sudden disease; or from poison. Within weeks, the rebel nobles approached Isabel to be their new leader against Enrique. She proposed ending hostilities instead, with the proviso, both given and accepted as a matter of course, that she be named Enrique's successor. Enrique accepted this and a contract was signed. Almost immediately afterward, moves were made to break it but not because Isabel was a woman, but because Enrique (and/or his favorite, Juan Pacheco) preferred promoting Juana "la Beltraneja". In the event, Enrique was partially swayed back to Isabel and Fernando, but when he died, he never stated who, indeed, was his chosen heir. So Isabel acted quickly and crowned herself.

Regarding the Union of the Spanish crowns: Actually, the marriage only united Castile and Aragon during the lifetimes of the two reigning monarchs: the union wouldn't be permanent until or unless a (male) heir of their bodies inherited both kingdoms. This is why Ferando was in such bad shape, politically, after Isabel died: he had lost more than half his influence because, immediately, the Castilian crown reverted, by right, to Juana (and by extension her husband Philip the Handsome); and if, after Fernando married Germaine de Foix, he had had a son, that son would have inherited Aragon (but not Castile), and the kingdoms would have been split again.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
>  
> had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
>  
> this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon. the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile
> http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
>  
> maybe salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half brother henry.
>  
> a major consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
>  
> woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for e4 to marry the then 13 year old isabella, when he and woodville were secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't have too many nice words for woodville either.
>  
> isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of gaunt's beaufort children.
>  
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m. constance of castile
> /
> catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
>  
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
> /
> phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her mother's father..
>  
> one can see how the tudor's worked to consolidate their hold on the english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and h8 successively married katherine of aragon, a daughter of isabella and ferdinand.
>  
> roslyn
>
> --- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...>
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
> To:
> Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

great info maria. thank you for sharing.
 
roslyn
--- On Thu, 12/9/10, ejbronte_11210 <ejbronte@...> wrote:


From: ejbronte_11210 <ejbronte@...>
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
To:
Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 3:02 PM


 



Hi all - regarding Salic Law and Castile - no, there was no change in the law before or after Isabel's succession as queen regnant. The idea of either Isabel or Juana "la Beltraneja" coming into power after the deaths of young Alfonso and Enrique IV was never contested on the grounds of gender, only on the grounds of just claim.

A situation not dissimilar to the Wars of the Roses was going in Castile in that young Alfonso was claiming the throne of Castile and so was Enrique IV. During the course of the conflict, young Alfonso died suddenly, either from bacteria ingested from eating trout; from a sudden disease; or from poison. Within weeks, the rebel nobles approached Isabel to be their new leader against Enrique. She proposed ending hostilities instead, with the proviso, both given and accepted as a matter of course, that she be named Enrique's successor. Enrique accepted this and a contract was signed. Almost immediately afterward, moves were made to break it but not because Isabel was a woman, but because Enrique (and/or his favorite, Juan Pacheco) preferred promoting Juana "la Beltraneja". In the event, Enrique was partially swayed back to Isabel and Fernando, but when he died, he never stated who, indeed, was his chosen heir. So Isabel acted quickly and crowned herself.

Regarding the Union of the Spanish crowns: Actually, the marriage only united Castile and Aragon during the lifetimes of the two reigning monarchs: the union wouldn't be permanent until or unless a (male) heir of their bodies inherited both kingdoms. This is why Ferando was in such bad shape, politically, after Isabel died: he had lost more than half his influence because, immediately, the Castilian crown reverted, by right, to Juana (and by extension her husband Philip the Handsome); and if, after Fernando married Germaine de Foix, he had had a son, that son would have inherited Aragon (but not Castile), and the kingdoms would have been split again.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
>  
> had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
>  
> this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon. the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile
> http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
>  
> maybe salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half brother henry.
>  
> a major consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
>  
> woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for e4 to marry the then 13 year old isabella, when he and woodville were secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't have too many nice words for woodville either.
>  
> isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of gaunt's beaufort children.
>  
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m. constance of castile
> /
> catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
>  
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
> /
> phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her mother's father..
>  
> one can see how the tudor's worked to consolidate their hold on the english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and h8 successively married katherine of aragon, a daughter of isabella and ferdinand.
>  
> roslyn
>
> --- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...>
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
> To:
> Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "gelloyd14" <gelloyd14@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
Carol responds:

As far as I know, Elizabeth Woodville's most distinguished ancestor was her maternal grandfather, the Count of Saint Pol. For what it's worth, here's a link to her mother's ancestry at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquetta_of_Luxembourg

Carol

>>From: Maria <elena@...>
>>Sent: Dec 9, 2010 10:47 AM
>>To: ,
>>
>>Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to
>>
>>the Spanish Throne??
>>
>>That would interest me, too, and if you can shoot over the exact remark, I'd
>>love to use it as a basis to go fishing.
***My friend was quoting H. Mantel from her novel Wolf Hall....

"(Thomas Cromwell) "But the woman (Elizabeth Woodville) King Edward (IV)
married - she brought, did she not, a claim to the throne of Castile?
Very ancient, very obscure?"
The Cardinal (Wolsey) nods. "That was the meaning of the three suns.
The throne of England, the throne of France, the throne of Castile.
So when our present king (HenryVIII) married Katherine, he was moving
closer to his ancient rights."
pg 89 picador trade pp

***What I've found so far and I'm very new to this is that perhaps
Mantel is mixing up her 'Johns"......
John of Gaunt made a claim to the throne of Castile via his second wife
Constance (later their daughter did marry a king of Castile) and

Elizabeth Woodville could trace back to King John I through her mother's
Luxembourg connection and from them to the Orsinis in Italy.
Grace

http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00001713&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=8

Her "cent-vinght-huit quartiers" features several French/ Italian/ Benelux ancestors but no mention of Spain (although there are a few gaps).

----- Original Message -----
From: Grace Lloyd
To:
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??





>>From: Maria <elena@...>
>>Sent: Dec 9, 2010 10:47 AM
>>To: ,
>>
>>Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to
>>
>>the Spanish Throne??
>>
>>That would interest me, too, and if you can shoot over the exact remark, I'd
>>love to use it as a basis to go fishing.
***My friend was quoting H. Mantel from her novel Wolf Hall....

"(Thomas Cromwell) "But the woman (Elizabeth Woodville) King Edward (IV)
married - she brought, did she not, a claim to the throne of Castile?
Very ancient, very obscure?"
The Cardinal (Wolsey) nods. "That was the meaning of the three suns.
The throne of England, the throne of France, the throne of Castile.
So when our present king (HenryVIII) married Katherine, he was moving
closer to his ancient rights."
pg 89 picador trade pp

***What I've found so far and I'm very new to this is that perhaps
Mantel is mixing up her 'Johns"......
John of Gaunt made a claim to the throne of Castile via his second wife
Constance (later their daughter did marry a king of Castile) and

Elizabeth Woodville could trace back to King John I through her mother's
Luxembourg connection and from them to the Orsinis in Italy.
Grace

"The Spanish branch of the Bourbon dynasty was the only one to survive into the 20th century. Ferdinand VII was restored to the throne of Spain after the fall of Napoleon in March 1814. Like his Italian Bourbon counterpart his subjects revolted against him in January 1820 and he was forced to grant a constitution. A French army invaded in 1823 and the constitution was revoked. Ferdinand married his fourth wife, Maria Christina, the daughter of Francis I, the Bourbon king of Sicily, in 1829. Despite his many marriages he did not have a son so on 30 June 1833 he was influenced by his wife to abolish the Salic Law so that her daughter, Isabella, could become queen depriving his brother, Don Carlos, of the throne."

Cut from a LONG Wikipedia article about the Bourbons - the Law must have been introduced.

----- Original Message -----
From: ejbronte_11210
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??



Hi all - regarding Salic Law and Castile - no, there was no change in the law before or after Isabel's succession as queen regnant. The idea of either Isabel or Juana "la Beltraneja" coming into power after the deaths of young Alfonso and Enrique IV was never contested on the grounds of gender, only on the grounds of just claim.

A situation not dissimilar to the Wars of the Roses was going in Castile in that young Alfonso was claiming the throne of Castile and so was Enrique IV. During the course of the conflict, young Alfonso died suddenly, either from bacteria ingested from eating trout; from a sudden disease; or from poison. Within weeks, the rebel nobles approached Isabel to be their new leader against Enrique. She proposed ending hostilities instead, with the proviso, both given and accepted as a matter of course, that she be named Enrique's successor. Enrique accepted this and a contract was signed. Almost immediately afterward, moves were made to break it but not because Isabel was a woman, but because Enrique (and/or his favorite, Juan Pacheco) preferred promoting Juana "la Beltraneja". In the event, Enrique was partially swayed back to Isabel and Fernando, but when he died, he never stated who, indeed, was his chosen heir. So Isabel acted quickly and crowned herself.

Regarding the Union of the Spanish crowns: Actually, the marriage only united Castile and Aragon during the lifetimes of the two reigning monarchs: the union wouldn't be permanent until or unless a (male) heir of their bodies inherited both kingdoms. This is why Ferando was in such bad shape, politically, after Isabel died: he had lost more than half his influence because, immediately, the Castilian crown reverted, by right, to Juana (and by extension her husband Philip the Handsome); and if, after Fernando married Germaine de Foix, he had had a son, that son would have inherited Aragon (but not Castile), and the kingdoms would have been split again.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
> Â
> had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
> Â
> this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon. the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile
> http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
> Â
> maybe salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half brother henry.
> Â
> a major consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
> Â
> woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for e4 to marry the then 13 year old isabella, when he and woodville were secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't have too many nice words for woodville either.
> Â
> isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of gaunt's beaufort children.
> Â
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m. constance of castile
> /
> catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
> Â
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
> /
> phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her mother's father..
> Â
> one can see how the tudor's worked to consolidate their hold on the english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and h8 successively married katherine of aragon, a daughter of isabella and ferdinand.
> Â
> roslyn
>
> --- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...>
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
> To:
> Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for that stephen: interesting! This though is many generations later. Salic law didn't exist in united spain until philip v came there from france and introduced it around 1713. Before that there was nothing to prevent a woman from inheriting the throne of spain; and before spain was united nothing to prevent one from inheriting in castile though not aragon.

Maria
Elena@...
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
Sender:
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:20:00
To: <>
Reply-to:
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection
to the Spanish Throne??

"The Spanish branch of the Bourbon dynasty was the only one to survive into the 20th century. Ferdinand VII was restored to the throne of Spain after the fall of Napoleon in March 1814. Like his Italian Bourbon counterpart his subjects revolted against him in January 1820 and he was forced to grant a constitution. A French army invaded in 1823 and the constitution was revoked. Ferdinand married his fourth wife, Maria Christina, the daughter of Francis I, the Bourbon king of Sicily, in 1829. Despite his many marriages he did not have a son so on 30 June 1833 he was influenced by his wife to abolish the Salic Law so that her daughter, Isabella, could become queen depriving his brother, Don Carlos, of the throne."

Cut from a LONG Wikipedia article about the Bourbons - the Law must have been introduced.

----- Original Message -----
From: ejbronte_11210
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??



Hi all - regarding Salic Law and Castile - no, there was no change in the law before or after Isabel's succession as queen regnant. The idea of either Isabel or Juana "la Beltraneja" coming into power after the deaths of young Alfonso and Enrique IV was never contested on the grounds of gender, only on the grounds of just claim.

A situation not dissimilar to the Wars of the Roses was going in Castile in that young Alfonso was claiming the throne of Castile and so was Enrique IV. During the course of the conflict, young Alfonso died suddenly, either from bacteria ingested from eating trout; from a sudden disease; or from poison. Within weeks, the rebel nobles approached Isabel to be their new leader against Enrique. She proposed ending hostilities instead, with the proviso, both given and accepted as a matter of course, that she be named Enrique's successor. Enrique accepted this and a contract was signed. Almost immediately afterward, moves were made to break it but not because Isabel was a woman, but because Enrique (and/or his favorite, Juan Pacheco) preferred promoting Juana "la Beltraneja". In the event, Enrique was partially swayed back to Isabel and Fernando, but when he died, he never stated who, indeed, was his chosen heir. So Isabel acted quickly and crowned herself.

Regarding the Union of the Spanish crowns: Actually, the marriage only united Castile and Aragon during the lifetimes of the two reigning monarchs: the union wouldn't be permanent until or unless a (male) heir of their bodies inherited both kingdoms. This is why Ferando was in such bad shape, politically, after Isabel died: he had lost more than half his influence because, immediately, the Castilian crown reverted, by right, to Juana (and by extension her husband Philip the Handsome); and if, after Fernando married Germaine de Foix, he had had a son, that son would have inherited Aragon (but not Castile), and the kingdoms would have been split again.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
> ý
> had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
> ý
> this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon. the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile
> http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
> ý
> maybeý salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half brother henry.
> ý
> a majorý consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
> ý
> woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for e4 to marry the then 13 year oldý isabella,ý when he and woodville were secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't have too many nice words for woodville either.
> ý
> isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of gaunt's beaufort children.
> ý
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m. constance of castile
> /
> catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
> ý
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
> /
> phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her mother's father..
> ý
> one can see how the tudor's worked toý consolidate their hold on the english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and h8 successively married katherine of aragon,ý a daughter of isabella and ferdinand.
> ý
> roslyn
>
> --- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...>
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a connection to the Spanish Throne??
> To:
> Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
>
>
> ý
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Strictly a Bourbon thing then - logically.

----- Original Message -----
From: <ejbronte@...>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
connectionto the Spanish Throne??


Thanks for that stephen: interesting! This though is many generations
later. Salic law didn't exist in united spain until philip v came there from
france and introduced it around 1713. Before that there was nothing to
prevent a woman from inheriting the throne of spain; and before spain was
united nothing to prevent one from inheriting in castile though not aragon.

Maria
Elena@...
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
Sender:
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:20:00
To: <>
Reply-to:
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
connection
to the Spanish Throne??

"The Spanish branch of the Bourbon dynasty was the only one to survive into
the 20th century. Ferdinand VII was restored to the throne of Spain after
the fall of Napoleon in March 1814. Like his Italian Bourbon counterpart his
subjects revolted against him in January 1820 and he was forced to grant a
constitution. A French army invaded in 1823 and the constitution was
revoked. Ferdinand married his fourth wife, Maria Christina, the daughter of
Francis I, the Bourbon king of Sicily, in 1829. Despite his many marriages
he did not have a son so on 30 June 1833 he was influenced by his wife to
abolish the Salic Law so that her daughter, Isabella, could become queen
depriving his brother, Don Carlos, of the throne."

Cut from a LONG Wikipedia article about the Bourbons - the Law must have
been introduced.

----- Original Message -----
From: ejbronte_11210
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
connection to the Spanish Throne??



Hi all - regarding Salic Law and Castile - no, there was no change in the
law before or after Isabel's succession as queen regnant. The idea of either
Isabel or Juana "la Beltraneja" coming into power after the deaths of young
Alfonso and Enrique IV was never contested on the grounds of gender, only on
the grounds of just claim.

A situation not dissimilar to the Wars of the Roses was going in Castile
in that young Alfonso was claiming the throne of Castile and so was Enrique
IV. During the course of the conflict, young Alfonso died suddenly, either
from bacteria ingested from eating trout; from a sudden disease; or from
poison. Within weeks, the rebel nobles approached Isabel to be their new
leader against Enrique. She proposed ending hostilities instead, with the
proviso, both given and accepted as a matter of course, that she be named
Enrique's successor. Enrique accepted this and a contract was signed. Almost
immediately afterward, moves were made to break it but not because Isabel
was a woman, but because Enrique (and/or his favorite, Juan Pacheco)
preferred promoting Juana "la Beltraneja". In the event, Enrique was
partially swayed back to Isabel and Fernando, but when he died, he never
stated who, indeed, was his chosen heir. So Isabel acted quickly and crowned
herself.

Regarding the Union of the Spanish crowns: Actually, the marriage only
united Castile and Aragon during the lifetimes of the two reigning monarchs:
the union wouldn't be permanent until or unless a (male) heir of their
bodies inherited both kingdoms. This is why Ferando was in such bad shape,
politically, after Isabel died: he had lost more than half his influence
because, immediately, the Castilian crown reverted, by right, to Juana (and
by extension her husband Philip the Handsome); and if, after Fernando
married Germaine de Foix, he had had a son, that son would have inherited
Aragon (but not Castile), and the kingdoms would have been split again.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@...>
wrote:
>
> as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville
to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary
via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
> Â
> had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
> Â
> this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is
not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish
connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon.
the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and
isabella of castile
> http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
> Â
> maybe salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she
inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half
brother henry.
> Â
> a major consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union
of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
> Â
> woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for
e4 to marry the then 13 year old isabella, when he and woodville were
secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and
england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't
have too many nice words for woodville either.
> Â
> isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from
john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english
throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of
gaunt's beaufort children.
> Â
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m. constance of castile
> /
> catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
> Â
> e3
> /
> john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
> /
> phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her
mother's father..
> Â
> one can see how the tudor's worked to consolidate their hold on the
english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and
h8 successively married katherine of aragon, a daughter of isabella and
ferdinand.
> Â
> roslyn
>
> --- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@...>
> Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a
connection to the Spanish Throne??
> To:
> Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into
remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth
Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this
in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick
google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function
well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer
to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>














------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Of course, as many of you will be aware, Edward had his own claim to the throne of Castile via his great-grandmother, Isabel of Castile, Duchess of York. I don't know how much he made of this but he certainly used the heraldry, as anyone who has seen the 'Edward IV Roll' will know.

I can't think Elizabeth Woodville had any realistic claim to Castile or anywhere else, not least because she had brothers.

Brian W

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Strictly a Bourbon thing then - logically.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ejbronte@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connectionto the Spanish Throne??
>
>
> Thanks for that stephen: interesting! This though is many generations
> later. Salic law didn't exist in united spain until philip v came there from
> france and introduced it around 1713. Before that there was nothing to
> prevent a woman from inheriting the throne of spain; and before spain was
> united nothing to prevent one from inheriting in castile though not aragon.
>
> Maria
> Elena@...
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> Sender:
> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:20:00
> To: <>
> Reply-to:
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connection
> to the Spanish Throne??
>
> "The Spanish branch of the Bourbon dynasty was the only one to survive into
> the 20th century. Ferdinand VII was restored to the throne of Spain after
> the fall of Napoleon in March 1814. Like his Italian Bourbon counterpart his
> subjects revolted against him in January 1820 and he was forced to grant a
> constitution. A French army invaded in 1823 and the constitution was
> revoked. Ferdinand married his fourth wife, Maria Christina, the daughter of
> Francis I, the Bourbon king of Sicily, in 1829. Despite his many marriages
> he did not have a son so on 30 June 1833 he was influenced by his wife to
> abolish the Salic Law so that her daughter, Isabella, could become queen
> depriving his brother, Don Carlos, of the throne."
>
> Cut from a LONG Wikipedia article about the Bourbons - the Law must have
> been introduced.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ejbronte_11210
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connection to the Spanish Throne??
>
>
>
> Hi all - regarding Salic Law and Castile - no, there was no change in the
> law before or after Isabel's succession as queen regnant. The idea of either
> Isabel or Juana "la Beltraneja" coming into power after the deaths of young
> Alfonso and Enrique IV was never contested on the grounds of gender, only on
> the grounds of just claim.
>
> A situation not dissimilar to the Wars of the Roses was going in Castile
> in that young Alfonso was claiming the throne of Castile and so was Enrique
> IV. During the course of the conflict, young Alfonso died suddenly, either
> from bacteria ingested from eating trout; from a sudden disease; or from
> poison. Within weeks, the rebel nobles approached Isabel to be their new
> leader against Enrique. She proposed ending hostilities instead, with the
> proviso, both given and accepted as a matter of course, that she be named
> Enrique's successor. Enrique accepted this and a contract was signed. Almost
> immediately afterward, moves were made to break it but not because Isabel
> was a woman, but because Enrique (and/or his favorite, Juan Pacheco)
> preferred promoting Juana "la Beltraneja". In the event, Enrique was
> partially swayed back to Isabel and Fernando, but when he died, he never
> stated who, indeed, was his chosen heir. So Isabel acted quickly and crowned
> herself.
>
> Regarding the Union of the Spanish crowns: Actually, the marriage only
> united Castile and Aragon during the lifetimes of the two reigning monarchs:
> the union wouldn't be permanent until or unless a (male) heir of their
> bodies inherited both kingdoms. This is why Ferando was in such bad shape,
> politically, after Isabel died: he had lost more than half his influence
> because, immediately, the Castilian crown reverted, by right, to Juana (and
> by extension her husband Philip the Handsome); and if, after Fernando
> married Germaine de Foix, he had had a son, that son would have inherited
> Aragon (but not Castile), and the kingdoms would have been split again.
>
> Maria
> elena@...
>
> --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
> wrote:
> >
> > as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville
> to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary
> via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
> > Â
> > had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
> > Â
> > this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is
> not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish
> connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon.
> the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and
> isabella of castile
> > http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
> > Â
> > maybe salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she
> inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half
> brother henry.
> > Â
> > a major consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union
> of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
> > Â
> > woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for
> e4 to marry the then 13 year old isabella, when he and woodville were
> secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and
> england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't
> have too many nice words for woodville either.
> > Â
> > isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from
> john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english
> throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of
> gaunt's beaufort children.
> > Â
> > e3
> > /
> > john of gaunt m. constance of castile
> > /
> > catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
> > Â
> > e3
> > /
> > john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
> > /
> > phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her
> mother's father..
> > Â
> > one can see how the tudor's worked to consolidate their hold on the
> english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and
> h8 successively married katherine of aragon, a daughter of isabella and
> ferdinand.
> > Â
> > roslyn
> >
> > --- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@>
> > Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connection to the Spanish Throne??
> > To:
> > Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> > I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into
> remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth
> Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this
> in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick
> google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function
> well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer
> to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Thanks, Brian - your blog is moving a little slowly at present;)

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a connectionto the Spanish Throne??



Of course, as many of you will be aware, Edward had his own claim to the throne of Castile via his great-grandmother, Isabel of Castile, Duchess of York. I don't know how much he made of this but he certainly used the heraldry, as anyone who has seen the 'Edward IV Roll' will know.

I can't think Elizabeth Woodville had any realistic claim to Castile or anywhere else, not least because she had brothers.

Brian W

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Strictly a Bourbon thing then - logically.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ejbronte@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connectionto the Spanish Throne??
>
>
> Thanks for that stephen: interesting! This though is many generations
> later. Salic law didn't exist in united spain until philip v came there from
> france and introduced it around 1713. Before that there was nothing to
> prevent a woman from inheriting the throne of spain; and before spain was
> united nothing to prevent one from inheriting in castile though not aragon.
>
> Maria
> Elena@...
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> Sender:
> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 22:20:00
> To: <>
> Reply-to:
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connection
> to the Spanish Throne??
>
> "The Spanish branch of the Bourbon dynasty was the only one to survive into
> the 20th century. Ferdinand VII was restored to the throne of Spain after
> the fall of Napoleon in March 1814. Like his Italian Bourbon counterpart his
> subjects revolted against him in January 1820 and he was forced to grant a
> constitution. A French army invaded in 1823 and the constitution was
> revoked. Ferdinand married his fourth wife, Maria Christina, the daughter of
> Francis I, the Bourbon king of Sicily, in 1829. Despite his many marriages
> he did not have a son so on 30 June 1833 he was influenced by his wife to
> abolish the Salic Law so that her daughter, Isabella, could become queen
> depriving his brother, Don Carlos, of the throne."
>
> Cut from a LONG Wikipedia article about the Bourbons - the Law must have
> been introduced.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ejbronte_11210
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connection to the Spanish Throne??
>
>
>
> Hi all - regarding Salic Law and Castile - no, there was no change in the
> law before or after Isabel's succession as queen regnant. The idea of either
> Isabel or Juana "la Beltraneja" coming into power after the deaths of young
> Alfonso and Enrique IV was never contested on the grounds of gender, only on
> the grounds of just claim.
>
> A situation not dissimilar to the Wars of the Roses was going in Castile
> in that young Alfonso was claiming the throne of Castile and so was Enrique
> IV. During the course of the conflict, young Alfonso died suddenly, either
> from bacteria ingested from eating trout; from a sudden disease; or from
> poison. Within weeks, the rebel nobles approached Isabel to be their new
> leader against Enrique. She proposed ending hostilities instead, with the
> proviso, both given and accepted as a matter of course, that she be named
> Enrique's successor. Enrique accepted this and a contract was signed. Almost
> immediately afterward, moves were made to break it but not because Isabel
> was a woman, but because Enrique (and/or his favorite, Juan Pacheco)
> preferred promoting Juana "la Beltraneja". In the event, Enrique was
> partially swayed back to Isabel and Fernando, but when he died, he never
> stated who, indeed, was his chosen heir. So Isabel acted quickly and crowned
> herself.
>
> Regarding the Union of the Spanish crowns: Actually, the marriage only
> united Castile and Aragon during the lifetimes of the two reigning monarchs:
> the union wouldn't be permanent until or unless a (male) heir of their
> bodies inherited both kingdoms. This is why Ferando was in such bad shape,
> politically, after Isabel died: he had lost more than half his influence
> because, immediately, the Castilian crown reverted, by right, to Juana (and
> by extension her husband Philip the Handsome); and if, after Fernando
> married Germaine de Foix, he had had a son, that son would have inherited
> Aragon (but not Castile), and the kingdoms would have been split again.
>
> Maria
> elena@...
>
> --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
> wrote:
> >
> > as far as i know there is no easily found claim of elizabeth woodville
> to the spanish throne. her great granddaughter, mary tudor aka bloody mary
> via ancestry and marriage had a connection to the throne.
> > Â
> > had mary produced a child, that child may have had a claim.
> > Â
> > this website has EW's de luxembourg ancestry. her woodville ancestry is
> not peerage. have a rummage about and see if you can find any spanish
> connections to the ancestors of isabella of castile or ferdinand of aragon.
> the spanish throne was created with the union of ferdinand of aragon and
> isabella of castile
> > http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CHAMPAGNE%20NOBILITY.htm
> > Â
> > maybe salic law kicked in after isabella of castile became queen. she
> inherited her title after the demise of her full brother alphoso and half
> brother henry.
> > Â
> > a major consolidation of the spanish throne was created with the union
> of ferdinand of aragon and isabella of castile.
> > Â
> > woodville's second husband, e4 had envoys who were in negotiations for
> e4 to marry the then 13 year old isabella, when he and woodville were
> secretly married. thereby nullifing any arrangements between castile and
> england. isabella despised e4 because of this. i would imagine she didn't
> have too many nice words for woodville either.
> > Â
> > isabella of castile however had two legitimate lines of descent from
> john of gaunt. therefore, she actually had a stronger claim to the english
> throne than h7. h7's claim was via his mother's bastard lineage from john of
> gaunt's beaufort children.
> > Â
> > e3
> > /
> > john of gaunt m. constance of castile
> > /
> > catherine of lancaster was isabella's paternal grandmother.
> > Â
> > e3
> > /
> > john of gaunt m.blanche of lancester
> > /
> > phillipa of lancaster was isabella's maternal great grandmother via her
> mother's father..
> > Â
> > one can see how the tudor's worked to consolidate their hold on the
> english throne with the marriage of h7 to e of york. their sons, arthur and
> h8 successively married katherine of aragon, a daughter of isabella and
> ferdinand.
> > Â
> > roslyn
> >
> > --- On Thu, 12/9/10, gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: gelloyd14 <gelloyd14@>
> > Subject: Elizabeth Woodville and a
> connection to the Spanish Throne??
> > To:
> > Received: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> > I'm a newbie who's been lurking for a couple of months. I ran into
> remark on another group (not related to RIII at all) thread re: Elizabeth
> Woodville having a claim on the Spanish Throne. I have never run into this
> in any of my reading but I trust the person who posted the comment. A quick
> google got me nothing and I couldn't manipulate the message search function
> well enough to find any thing in past messages here. Anybody have an answer
> to how Elizabeth Woodville might have a claim on the Spanish throne??
> >
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