Cecily or Cicely????

Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-29 06:35:39
joansr3
I can't figure out how to spell Richard's mother's name. I've seen it
both ways. Because she was called "proud Cis", I'm inclined to favor
Cicely--but how did she spell her name and if unknown, which is
preferred?

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935

Re: Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-29 15:09:01
vermeertwo
There wasn't a commonly accepted method of spelling in the 15th century, even in the 16th century Shakespeare spelt his names in a variety of ways. It was the advent of Johnson's dictionary in the 18th century that got people to agree on a common spelling.

--- In , "joansr3" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> I can't figure out how to spell Richard's mother's name. I've seen it
> both ways. Because she was called "proud Cis", I'm inclined to favor
> Cicely--but how did she spell her name and if unknown, which is
> preferred?
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
>

Re: Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-29 15:24:51
joansr3
While you're right about inconsistent spelling in the 15th-century,
vermeertwo, I think people still spell their names however they feel
like--so consistency by damned. [:D]

However, I needed to know what the acceptable spelling was for something
that I'm writing. My preference would be for how "Cis" spelled her name,
but if couldn't be found, then I would want to know what the preferred
spelling is among Ricardians. Thanks to Susan Higginbotham, she pointed
me to "Wills from Doctors' Commons" <http://tinyurl.com/27ubolg> where
Cecily writes:
"...and by the intercession of holy Saint John Baptist, and all the
saintes of heven: I, Cecille, wife unto the right noble prince Richard
late Duke of Yorke,... " and this will is titled: "CECILY DUCHESS OF
YORK, 1495."

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935

--- In , "vermeertwo"
<hi.dung@...> wrote:
>
> There wasn't a commonly accepted method of spelling in the 15th
century, even in the 16th century Shakespeare spelt his names in a
variety of ways. It was the advent of Johnson's dictionary in the 18th
century that got people to agree on a common spelling.
>
> --- In , "joansr3" u2nohoo@
wrote:
> >
> > I can't figure out how to spell Richard's mother's name. I've seen
it
> > both ways. Because she was called "proud Cis", I'm inclined to favor
> > Cicely--but how did she spell her name and if unknown, which is
> > preferred?
> >
> > Joan
> > ---
> > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> >
>



Re: Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-29 22:28:42
mariewalsh2003
--- In , "joansr3" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> While you're right about inconsistent spelling in the 15th-century,
> vermeertwo, I think people still spell their names however they feel
> like--so consistency by damned. [:D]
>
> However, I needed to know what the acceptable spelling was for something
> that I'm writing. My preference would be for how "Cis" spelled her name,
> but if couldn't be found, then I would want to know what the preferred
> spelling is among Ricardians. Thanks to Susan Higginbotham, she pointed
> me to "Wills from Doctors' Commons" <http://tinyurl.com/27ubolg> where
> Cecily writes:
> "...and by the intercession of holy Saint John Baptist, and all the
> saintes of heven: I, Cecille, wife unto the right noble prince Richard
> late Duke of Yorke,... " and this will is titled: "CECILY DUCHESS OF
> YORK, 1495."
>
> Joan

Hi Joan,

I've puzzled over this one myself at times. The Latin original is of course Cecilia, and in the Middle Ages it always began Cec-.
I believe the 'Cis' pronunciation was a later development, and the Cicely spelling was no doubt invented to accommodate it (I understand that the 20th-century 'U' pronunciation was 'Sissely' whether the name was spelt Cicely or Cecily!).
So in Cecily's day the name was always begun 'Cec-', and so must have been pronounced that way. But the other difficulty is what to do with the end of the name. If there was any vowel at the end back then, it was an e (pronounced like a final e in German - ie like an a!). But more often than not, that final e was not written, and therefore I wouldn't like to say how often it was pronounced - ie she could have been Cecil!
In her will, Cecily (or her secretary) spells it 'Cecill', though there is a flourish through the ll which may or may not represent the omitted final e; the title of the will is contemporaneous with the published source - the will itself has no heading.
Another document I have, which refers a few times to Edward IV's daughter Cecily, names her Cecill' in the same way most of the time, but also on a couple of occasions Cecille.
I don't know the original source of the claim that she was nicknamed 'Proud Cis' but I've never seen it in any original document, it doesn't seem to match the medieval pronunciation of the full name, and I'd be inclined to suspect it's a later invention.

Marie


> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
>
> --- In , "vermeertwo"
> <hi.dung@> wrote:
> >
> > There wasn't a commonly accepted method of spelling in the 15th
> century, even in the 16th century Shakespeare spelt his names in a
> variety of ways. It was the advent of Johnson's dictionary in the 18th
> century that got people to agree on a common spelling.
> >
> > --- In , "joansr3" u2nohoo@
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I can't figure out how to spell Richard's mother's name. I've seen
> it
> > > both ways. Because she was called "proud Cis", I'm inclined to favor
> > > Cicely--but how did she spell her name and if unknown, which is
> > > preferred?
> > >
> > > Joan
> > > ---
> > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-30 02:11:46
joansr3
Marie, thank you for this added piece of information. I am going with
Cecily and not the medieval spelling--Cecille--because it will be more
recognizable. I don't know where "Proud Cis" came from, but had thought
that it was something she was called in her life, maybe not to her face.
It's also quite possible that that moniker was a later invention.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935

--- In , mariewalsh2003
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In , "joansr3" u2nohoo@
wrote:
> >
> > While you're right about inconsistent spelling in the 15th-century,
> > vermeertwo, I think people still spell their names however they feel
> > like--so consistency by damned. [:D]
> >
> > However, I needed to know what the acceptable spelling was for
something
> > that I'm writing. My preference would be for how "Cis" spelled her
name,
> > but if couldn't be found, then I would want to know what the
preferred
> > spelling is among Ricardians. Thanks to Susan Higginbotham, she
pointed
> > me to "Wills from Doctors' Commons" <http://tinyurl.com/27ubolg>
where
> > Cecily writes:
> > "...and by the intercession of holy Saint John Baptist, and all the
> > saintes of heven: I, Cecille, wife unto the right noble prince
Richard
> > late Duke of Yorke,... " and this will is titled: "CECILY DUCHESS OF
> > YORK, 1495."
> >
> > Joan
>
> Hi Joan,
>
> I've puzzled over this one myself at times. The Latin original is of
course Cecilia, and in the Middle Ages it always began Cec-.
> I believe the 'Cis' pronunciation was a later development, and the
Cicely spelling was no doubt invented to accommodate it (I understand
that the 20th-century 'U' pronunciation was 'Sissely' whether the name
was spelt Cicely or Cecily!).
> So in Cecily's day the name was always begun 'Cec-', and so must have
been pronounced that way. But the other difficulty is what to do with
the end of the name. If there was any vowel at the end back then, it was
an e (pronounced like a final e in German - ie like an a!). But more
often than not, that final e was not written, and therefore I wouldn't
like to say how often it was pronounced - ie she could have been Cecil!
> In her will, Cecily (or her secretary) spells it 'Cecill', though
there is a flourish through the ll which may or may not represent the
omitted final e; the title of the will is contemporaneous with the
published source - the will itself has no heading.
> Another document I have, which refers a few times to Edward IV's
daughter Cecily, names her Cecill' in the same way most of the time, but
also on a couple of occasions Cecille.
> I don't know the original source of the claim that she was nicknamed
'Proud Cis' but I've never seen it in any original document, it doesn't
seem to match the medieval pronunciation of the full name, and I'd be
inclined to suspect it's a later invention.
>
> Marie
>
>
> > ---
> > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> >
> > --- In , "vermeertwo"
> > <hi.dung@> wrote:
> > >
> > > There wasn't a commonly accepted method of spelling in the 15th
> > century, even in the 16th century Shakespeare spelt his names in a
> > variety of ways. It was the advent of Johnson's dictionary in the
18th
> > century that got people to agree on a common spelling.
> > >
> > > --- In , "joansr3" u2nohoo@
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I can't figure out how to spell Richard's mother's name. I've
seen
> > it
> > > > both ways. Because she was called "proud Cis", I'm inclined to
favor
> > > > Cicely--but how did she spell her name and if unknown, which is
> > > > preferred?
> > > >
> > > > Joan
> > > > ---
> > > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
21st-century
> > > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-30 15:49:45
mariewalsh2003
I suppose another possible compromise would be the French spelling, Cecile.

--- In , "joansr3" <u2nohoo@...> wrote:
>
> Marie, thank you for this added piece of information. I am going with
> Cecily and not the medieval spelling--Cecille--because it will be more
> recognizable. I don't know where "Proud Cis" came from, but had thought
> that it was something she was called in her life, maybe not to her face.
> It's also quite possible that that moniker was a later invention.
>
> Joan
> ---
> author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In , "joansr3" u2nohoo@
> wrote:
> > >
> > > While you're right about inconsistent spelling in the 15th-century,
> > > vermeertwo, I think people still spell their names however they feel
> > > like--so consistency by damned. [:D]
> > >
> > > However, I needed to know what the acceptable spelling was for
> something
> > > that I'm writing. My preference would be for how "Cis" spelled her
> name,
> > > but if couldn't be found, then I would want to know what the
> preferred
> > > spelling is among Ricardians. Thanks to Susan Higginbotham, she
> pointed
> > > me to "Wills from Doctors' Commons" <http://tinyurl.com/27ubolg>
> where
> > > Cecily writes:
> > > "...and by the intercession of holy Saint John Baptist, and all the
> > > saintes of heven: I, Cecille, wife unto the right noble prince
> Richard
> > > late Duke of Yorke,... " and this will is titled: "CECILY DUCHESS OF
> > > YORK, 1495."
> > >
> > > Joan
> >
> > Hi Joan,
> >
> > I've puzzled over this one myself at times. The Latin original is of
> course Cecilia, and in the Middle Ages it always began Cec-.
> > I believe the 'Cis' pronunciation was a later development, and the
> Cicely spelling was no doubt invented to accommodate it (I understand
> that the 20th-century 'U' pronunciation was 'Sissely' whether the name
> was spelt Cicely or Cecily!).
> > So in Cecily's day the name was always begun 'Cec-', and so must have
> been pronounced that way. But the other difficulty is what to do with
> the end of the name. If there was any vowel at the end back then, it was
> an e (pronounced like a final e in German - ie like an a!). But more
> often than not, that final e was not written, and therefore I wouldn't
> like to say how often it was pronounced - ie she could have been Cecil!
> > In her will, Cecily (or her secretary) spells it 'Cecill', though
> there is a flourish through the ll which may or may not represent the
> omitted final e; the title of the will is contemporaneous with the
> published source - the will itself has no heading.
> > Another document I have, which refers a few times to Edward IV's
> daughter Cecily, names her Cecill' in the same way most of the time, but
> also on a couple of occasions Cecille.
> > I don't know the original source of the claim that she was nicknamed
> 'Proud Cis' but I've never seen it in any original document, it doesn't
> seem to match the medieval pronunciation of the full name, and I'd be
> inclined to suspect it's a later invention.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > > ---
> > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
> > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > >
> > > --- In , "vermeertwo"
> > > <hi.dung@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There wasn't a commonly accepted method of spelling in the 15th
> > > century, even in the 16th century Shakespeare spelt his names in a
> > > variety of ways. It was the advent of Johnson's dictionary in the
> 18th
> > > century that got people to agree on a common spelling.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "joansr3" u2nohoo@
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I can't figure out how to spell Richard's mother's name. I've
> seen
> > > it
> > > > > both ways. Because she was called "proud Cis", I'm inclined to
> favor
> > > > > Cicely--but how did she spell her name and if unknown, which is
> > > > > preferred?
> > > > >
> > > > > Joan
> > > > > ---
> > > > > author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the
> 21st-century
> > > > > 2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
> > > > > website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
> > > > > blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
> > > > > ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-30 16:50:36
Brian
I remember arguing the toss with someone over this very topic as she was convinced there was a correct medieval spelling of names - I think her particular fetish was 'Wydeville' rather than 'Woodville'. Probably thought it looked posher or something.

Any road, I doubt whether the Duchess of York herself always used the same spelling. As mentioned in the thread at least one surviving signature is 'Cecille' Or 'Cecile'. The truth is our medieval and Tudor ancestors didn't lie awake in bed worrying about such things. Neither version is 'wrong' though have seen people mocked in Ricardian publications for daring to use the 'Cicely' version. The word 'sic' tends to get put behind it in brackets. Quite wrongly in my opinion. We don't often refer to Richard, Duke of Gloucester as Richard Gloucestre do we?

Brian W

Re: Cecily or Cicely????

2010-12-30 18:56:07
mariewalsh2003
I thoroughly agree, Brian. I think all Joan and myself were trying to get at is how the name might have been pronounced back then, and therefore which of the modern versions comes nearest to representing the medieval pronunciation.
I think we have a signature of Cecily's - didn't she sign herself just "Cecill"? Since Cecil didn't then exist as a boy's name it wouldn't have had the cross-gender effect it does for us.
I agree with Joan that introducing a defunct 15th-century spelling would be a mistake, but there's no reason not to make an informed choice of modern one.

Oh, and I totally agree about this "Wydeville" affectation, particularly as so many Ricardians insist on pronoucing it 'Wide (as in broad)Vill', which is nothing like the way 'Wydeville' would have been pronounced at at point in the 15th century. Okay, so it never had a -oo- in the 15th century, but spellings ranged from Wydeville to Widvill; and Widvill and Woodville don't sound that different so I'm happy to stick with the conventional modern spelling.

Marie



--- In , "Brian" <wainwright.brian@...> wrote:
>
> I remember arguing the toss with someone over this very topic as she was convinced there was a correct medieval spelling of names - I think her particular fetish was 'Wydeville' rather than 'Woodville'. Probably thought it looked posher or something.
>
> Any road, I doubt whether the Duchess of York herself always used the same spelling. As mentioned in the thread at least one surviving signature is 'Cecille' Or 'Cecile'. The truth is our medieval and Tudor ancestors didn't lie awake in bed worrying about such things. Neither version is 'wrong' though have seen people mocked in Ricardian publications for daring to use the 'Cicely' version. The word 'sic' tends to get put behind it in brackets. Quite wrongly in my opinion. We don't often refer to Richard, Duke of Gloucester as Richard Gloucestre do we?
>
> Brian W
>
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