Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!

While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and elsewhere (Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my everlasting gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing 'Daughter of Time', the work which got me interested in the subject of Richard III in the first place.

Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another Elizabeth for our collection... )

Jennifer

I was in grade five (I think) when I first read 'Daughter of Time'. That
was 55 years ago. I was dipping into Thomas B. Costain's 'The Later
Plantagenets' a few years later. Costain was one of the first articulate
mid-century writers to make the now-recognizable Ricardian case. Costain
was a Canuck from Brantford, Ontario...also the hometown of Wayne
Gretzky :-).

On 10/03/2011 8:39 AM, dances_with_spaniels wrote:
>
> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and
> elsewhere (Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my
> everlasting gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing
> 'Daughter of Time', the work which got me interested in the subject of
> Richard III in the first place.
>
> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another
> Elizabeth for our collection... )
>
> Jennifer
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1497/3495 - Release Date: 03/09/11
>

And mine is to Sharon Kay Penman, for before I read her book, Richard
III was the Shakespearean villain I loved to hate. SKP's book spurred me
to read Kendall after which I was forever hooked.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935

--- In , Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
wrote:
>
> I was in grade five (I think) when I first read 'Daughter of Time'.
That
> was 55 years ago. I was dipping into Thomas B. Costain's 'The Later
> Plantagenets' a few years later. Costain was one of the first
articulate
> mid-century writers to make the now-recognizable Ricardian case.
Costain
> was a Canuck from Brantford, Ontario...also the hometown of Wayne
> Gretzky :-).
>
> On 10/03/2011 8:39 AM, dances_with_spaniels wrote:
> >
> > While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and
> > elsewhere (Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others),
my
> > everlasting gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing
> > 'Daughter of Time', the work which got me interested in the subject
of
> > Richard III in the first place.
> >
> > Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another
> > Elizabeth for our collection... )
> >
> > Jennifer
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1497/3495 - Release Date:
03/09/11
> >
>
>
>
>
>

I too visited Costain in late '70s; recently reread it. The first mention of
Polydore Vergil's crimes against libraries (his overdue fees would finance a
small country), where we may guess he destroyed whatever he found that favored
RIII.

I mean, one letter to his Mum, in his whole life, and that one mentioning
Colyngbourne? No: "Thanks for the wafers, Ma Mere. Send cash, next time"? Not
likely.



________________________________
From: Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 10:27:30 AM
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!


I was in grade five (I think) when I first read 'Daughter of Time'. That
was 55 years ago. I was dipping into Thomas B. Costain's 'The Later
Plantagenets' a few years later. Costain was one of the first articulate
mid-century writers to make the now-recognizable Ricardian case. Costain
was a Canuck from Brantford, Ontario...also the hometown of Wayne
Gretzky :-).

On 10/03/2011 8:39 AM, dances_with_spaniels wrote:
>
> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and
> elsewhere (Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my
> everlasting gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing
> 'Daughter of Time', the work which got me interested in the subject of
> Richard III in the first place.
>
> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another
> Elizabeth for our collection... )
>
> Jennifer
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1497/3495 - Release Date: 03/09/11
>

--- In , dances_with_spaniels <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and elsewhere (Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my everlasting gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing 'Daughter of Time', the work which got me interested in the subject of Richard III in the first place.
>
> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another Elizabeth for our collection... )
>
> Jennifer



I'll second the salute to Josephine Tey. A friend gave me "The Daughter of Time" -- before that I "knew" from school that hunchbacked Richard III murdered the poor little Princes in the Tower.

How many of us were introduced to the subject of the real Richard III via the Tey novel? Show of hands, please.

Katy

Me, for sure!

I was ready; as I think I said, yesterday, I had just watched Olivier via PBS on
a Sunday evening, and that very night, dreamed about a RIII very different from
Shakespeare. If I told you, you'd laugh, because the dream was so specific and
dead on (so to speak). And then, my desk-mate on Monday recommended Tey, brought
the book the following morn, and I was off to the races.

Diane (my friend) then lent me Kendall, Costain, and Huizinga's book on The
Waning of the Middle Ages; she later recommended Barbara Tuchman and several
others for the big picture, including the 14th C. I'd never guessed before she
had minored in English history, and had worked towards a Master on the subject
of the Last Plantagenets, but gave up to work for the publisher, where we met.

In Memoriam, Diane Van S., who passed away recently. Requiescat in pace.

Judy Thomson

And a shout out to Susan Higgenbotham (sp?); Joan says you're "buddies."



________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 12:46:50 PM
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!




--- In , dances_with_spaniels
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and elsewhere
>(Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my everlasting
>gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing 'Daughter of Time', the work
>which got me interested in the subject of Richard III in the first place.
>
> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another Elizabeth
>for our collection... )
>
> Jennifer

I'll second the salute to Josephine Tey. A friend gave me "The Daughter of
Time" -- before that I "knew" from school that hunchbacked Richard III murdered
the poor little Princes in the Tower.

How many of us were introduced to the subject of the real Richard III via the
Tey novel? Show of hands, please.

Katy

Me, too;  and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.

Actually mine was "We Speak No Treason" by Rosemary Hawley Jarman (I still think
it's the best novel I ever read about him) when I was about 15.  I read the
Daughter of Time when I was at college.

My thanks to both of them, and Sharon Penman.




________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 10 March, 2011 18:46:50
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!

 


--- In , dances_with_spaniels
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and elsewhere
>(Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my everlasting
>gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing 'Daughter of Time', the work
>which got me interested in the subject of Richard III in the first place.
>
> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another Elizabeth
>for our collection... )
>
> Jennifer

I'll second the salute to Josephine Tey. A friend gave me "The Daughter of Time"
-- before that I "knew" from school that hunchbacked Richard III murdered the
poor little Princes in the Tower.

How many of us were introduced to the subject of the real Richard III via the
Tey novel? Show of hands, please.

Katy

We Speak No Treason still holds up well, and it's a 3-hanky read.

One tiny, recently discovered caveat: The terrific use of Richard's prayer,
which was so moving in the novel, might need a minor amendment (I don't recall
how Jarman began), post Sutton and Visser-Fuchs' revelation that "De beato
Juliano," etc., does not actually run into the prayer R had added to his Hours;
at least one page is missing between.

No one can decide who crossed out "res" and gave the prayer its somewhat
redundant new beginning, but the original first page of the prayer, presumably
with its illuminated cap, is missing--probably sacrificed to some collector's
mania.

Cheers!
Judy T



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 2:30:04 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!


Actually mine was "We Speak No Treason" by Rosemary Hawley Jarman (I still think

it's the best novel I ever read about him) when I was about 15. I read the
Daughter of Time when I was at college.

My thanks to both of them, and Sharon Penman.

________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 10 March, 2011 18:46:50
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!



--- In , dances_with_spaniels
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and elsewhere
>(Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my everlasting
>gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing 'Daughter of Time', the work

>which got me interested in the subject of Richard III in the first place.
>
> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another Elizabeth
>for our collection... )
>
> Jennifer

I'll second the salute to Josephine Tey. A friend gave me "The Daughter of Time"

-- before that I "knew" from school that hunchbacked Richard III murdered the
poor little Princes in the Tower.

How many of us were introduced to the subject of the real Richard III via the
Tey novel? Show of hands, please.

Katy

Me, too! I had no opinion on Richard III - while the Shakespeare play is
performed in Germany, I don't think many people are bothered whether it is
historical or not, unless they consider themselves as Shakespeare boffins.


At uni we had a lecture series on Shakespeare's history plays and the professor
advised to read The Daughter of Time for a historical take on the play (thank
you, Prof Lessenich). Well, needless to say I took his advise.


A few years later I attended a meeting of the German Shakespeare Society and one
speaker (Hilde Spiel from Vienna, who had edited one version of Shakespeare's
play) explained that Shakespeare should not be accepted as history and her
example was Richard III - which the majority of the rather stuck up members saw
as criticism of their "Saint William" and the discussion became rather animated
to say the least. I was glad though that here was someone who publicly stood up
for Richard.

Cheers, Dorothea





________________________________
From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
To:
Cc: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
Sent: Fri, 11 March, 2011 6:08:54 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!


Me, for sure!

I was ready; as I think I said, yesterday, I had just watched Olivier via PBS on

a Sunday evening, and that very night, dreamed about a RIII very different from
Shakespeare. If I told you, you'd laugh, because the dream was so specific and
dead on (so to speak). And then, my desk-mate on Monday recommended Tey, brought

the book the following morn, and I was off to the races.

Diane (my friend) then lent me Kendall, Costain, and Huizinga's book on The
Waning of the Middle Ages; she later recommended Barbara Tuchman and several
others for the big picture, including the 14th C. I'd never guessed before she
had minored in English history, and had worked towards a Master on the subject
of the Last Plantagenets, but gave up to work for the publisher, where we met.

In Memoriam, Diane Van S., who passed away recently. Requiescat in pace.

Judy Thomson

And a shout out to Susan Higgenbotham (sp?); Joan says you're "buddies."

________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 12:46:50 PM
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!

--- In , dances_with_spaniels
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and elsewhere
>(Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my everlasting
>gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing 'Daughter of Time', the work

>which got me interested in the subject of Richard III in the first place.
>
> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another Elizabeth
>for our collection... )
>
> Jennifer

I'll second the salute to Josephine Tey. A friend gave me "The Daughter of
Time" -- before that I "knew" from school that hunchbacked Richard III murdered
the poor little Princes in the Tower.

How many of us were introduced to the subject of the real Richard III via the
Tey novel? Show of hands, please.

Katy

My hand's in the air for Josephine Tey.

A friend sent me a copy of the book when I was in college. I later talked
my Shakespeare professor into letting me do my grad paper on the history
behind the play, and spent a good part of a semester in the library stacks
checking up on Alan Grant and his researcher. :-) I've been giving people
copies of Tey's book ever since.

Peggy

Hi, Everyone!

I tried earlier, but I think my message got caught by Daemon Mailer...

I am looking for guidance in re: the death of William Catesby on 25 August 1485.

Was he beheaded or hanged?

Research is of divided opinions; does anyone know a primary source, other than
his last will/testament that shall confirm one or the other. The answer will
shape opinion. I would love three sources, but shall settle for one good
source...letter? proclamation? burial info (head v. no head or separated)?
Anything?

Huge THANKS in advance; I've been assured this site will have the most reliable,
up-to-date research results. Just setting me on the right course (Website,
real-world document not yet on line, etc.) will help enormously.

Cheers!
Judy Gerard Thomson


________________________________

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Everyone!
>
> I tried earlier, but I think my message got caught by Daemon Mailer...
>
> I am looking for guidance in re: the death of William Catesby on 25 August 1485.
>
> Was he beheaded or hanged?
>
> Research is of divided opinions; does anyone know a primary source, other than
> his last will/testament that shall confirm one or the other. The answer will
> shape opinion. I would love three sources, but shall settle for one good
> source...letter? proclamation? burial info (head v. no head or separated)?
> Anything?



Other people on this list will be able to cite sources, but just off the cuff, I would certainly think he was hanged. Beheading was reserved for the royal blood, or at least the upper nobility.

I wouldn't expect his last will to give any information about his manner of death. The probate of it might.

Katy

Croyland says, "There was also taken prisoner William Catesby who occupied a distinguished place amongst all the advisers of the late king, and whose head was cut off at Leicester as a last reward for his excellent offices." Quoted in D. Williams, `The hastily drawn up will of William Catesby, esquire', Leicestershire Archaeological and Historical Society Transactions, 51 (1975–6), 43–51.

Vergil, quoted in Keith Dockray's Richard III: A Source Book simply says that he was executed.

Susan Higginbotham

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Everyone!
>
> I tried earlier, but I think my message got caught by Daemon Mailer...
>
> I am looking for guidance in re: the death of William Catesby on 25 August 1485.
>
> Was he beheaded or hanged?
>
> Research is of divided opinions; does anyone know a primary source, other than
> his last will/testament that shall confirm one or the other. The answer will
> shape opinion. I would love three sources, but shall settle for one good
> source...letter? proclamation? burial info (head v. no head or separated)?
> Anything?
>
> Huge THANKS in advance; I've been assured this site will have the most reliable,
> up-to-date research results. Just setting me on the right course (Website,
> real-world document not yet on line, etc.) will help enormously.
>
> Cheers!
> Judy Gerard Thomson
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Susan.

Crowland will rule in the absence of others; I did have this, but hoped for
someone on the scene. Currently I write he was beheaded, but so many opinions
were "hanged" I began to worry....

JGT



________________________________
From: Susan <shigginbotham2@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 10:58:50 PM
Subject: Re:


Croyland says, "There was also taken prisoner William Catesby who occupied a
distinguished place amongst all the advisers of the late king, and whose head
was cut off at Leicester as a last reward for his excellent offices." Quoted in
D. Williams, `The hastily drawn up will of William Catesby, esquire',
Leicestershire Archaeological and Historical Society Transactions, 51 (19756),
4351.

Vergil, quoted in Keith Dockray's Richard III: A Source Book simply says that he
was executed.

Susan Higginbotham

--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Everyone!
>
> I tried earlier, but I think my message got caught by Daemon Mailer...
>
> I am looking for guidance in re: the death of William Catesby on 25 August
>1485.
>
> Was he beheaded or hanged?
>
> Research is of divided opinions; does anyone know a primary source, other than

> his last will/testament that shall confirm one or the other. The answer will
> shape opinion. I would love three sources, but shall settle for one good
> source...letter? proclamation? burial info (head v. no head or separated)?
> Anything?
>
> Huge THANKS in advance; I've been assured this site will have the most
>reliable,
>
> up-to-date research results. Just setting me on the right course (Website,
> real-world document not yet on line, etc.) will help enormously.
>
> Cheers!
> Judy Gerard Thomson
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

For me it was the Sunne in Splendor.  Who knew when I randomly pulled a book off the library shelf, it would turn into a lifelong love of the 15th century, the War of the Roses and Richard III.
Vickie
--- On Thu, 3/10/11, PD <outtolaunch@...> wrote:


From: PD <outtolaunch@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
To:
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 9:27 PM


 



My hand's in the air for Josephine Tey.

A friend sent me a copy of the book when I was in college. I later talked
my Shakespeare professor into letting me do my grad paper on the history
behind the play, and spent a good part of a semester in the library stacks
checking up on Alan Grant and his researcher. :-) I've been giving people
copies of Tey's book ever since.

Peggy

As we used to say in publishing: "If your mother says she loves you, check it
out."

In college, I studied under Burr Brundage, Ph.D., a protege of Arnold Toynbee,
to learn research methods; three corroborating sources were required. My
purposes may allow for less rigor, but old habits die hard : )

Cheers!
Judy Thomson



________________________________
From: Susan <shigginbotham2@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 10:58:50 PM
Subject: Re:


Croyland says, "There was also taken prisoner William Catesby who occupied a
distinguished place amongst all the advisers of the late king, and whose head
was cut off at Leicester as a last reward for his excellent offices." Quoted in
D. Williams, `The hastily drawn up will of William Catesby, esquire',
Leicestershire Archaeological and Historical Society Transactions, 51 (19756),
4351.

Vergil, quoted in Keith Dockray's Richard III: A Source Book simply says that he
was executed.

Susan Higginbotham

--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Everyone!
>
> I tried earlier, but I think my message got caught by Daemon Mailer...
>
> I am looking for guidance in re: the death of William Catesby on 25 August
>1485.
>
> Was he beheaded or hanged?
>
> Research is of divided opinions; does anyone know a primary source, other than

> his last will/testament that shall confirm one or the other. The answer will
> shape opinion. I would love three sources, but shall settle for one good
> source...letter? proclamation? burial info (head v. no head or separated)?
> Anything?
>
> Huge THANKS in advance; I've been assured this site will have the most
>reliable,
>
> up-to-date research results. Just setting me on the right course (Website,
> real-world document not yet on line, etc.) will help enormously.
>
> Cheers!
> Judy Gerard Thomson
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dorothea Preis wrote:
>
> <snip> I had no opinion on Richard III - while the Shakespeare play is performed in Germany, I don't think many people are bothered whether it is historical or not, unless they consider themselves as Shakespeare boffins. <snip>

Carol responds:

I can't tell whether you're referring to people in Germany or people in general. If it's the latter, I'm definitely an exception because it was the Shakespeare play that led me to start investigating Richard. It was obvious to me that Shakespeare's Richard was a caricature, both in terms of deformity and wickedness. I also knew that Shakespeare had placed both Richard and George in a battle fought when they were children in one of the Henry VI plays and made Edmund of Rutland into a helpless child instead of a teenager, in effect switching his age and Richard's, and that he had retained Margaret of Anjou as a character after she was historically dead. Knowing all that made me wonder just how many other liberties he had taken. My research (for a college English class) led me to the distortions perpetrated by More, Vergil, Hall/Holinshed and others, with even such anti-Richard historians as Alison Hanham acquitting him of some of the alleged "crimes" and admitting that the hunchback and withered arm were fiction. My professor told me about the Richard III Society.

I don't remember how I discovered Kendall (who has, I think, been unfairly criticized for his "narrative" approach--I have yet to encounter an objective historian on the anti-Richard side!), but I do remember wandering through a bookstore and seeing the title "The Sunne in Splendour," which I immediately assumed was a novel about Edward IV. I picked it up out, curious to see how it handled Richard, only to discover that he was the protagonist. It's still my favorite Ricardian novel despite its flaws ("we be," etc., grates on the nerves). I enjoy "Daughter of Time" and am grateful to "Tey" for convincing so many readers to look at Richard with new eyes, but the dated information (and especially the characterization of Buckingham as "a friend of Edward's") keeps it from being a favorite of mine. "We Speak No Treason" is also good, with its view of Richard through the eyes of characters who saw him only from the outside and at some distance.

Carol, who agrees with Kendall's assessment of the Shakespeare play as a triumph for art but a tragedy for history

  Half a hand--not introduced, but she reinforced what I was already learning and had suspected.  I started trying to figure out the truth of Richard when I could not reconcile his character with any sort of sense when I read Shakespeare's play.  Love Daughter of Time.
Sheffe

--- On Thu, 3/10/11, oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...> wrote:

From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
To:
Date: Thursday, March 10, 2011, 1:46 PM







 













--- In , dances_with_spaniels <no_reply@...> wrote:

>

> While I owe an enormous debt to those writers on this forum and elsewhere (Kendall, Jeremy Potter, Keith Dockray and many others), my everlasting gratitude is extended to Josephine Tey for writing 'Daughter of Time', the work which got me interested in the subject of Richard III in the first place.

>

> Thank you, dear Josephine (real name Elizabeth Mackintosh - another Elizabeth for our collection... )

>

> Jennifer



I'll second the salute to Josephine Tey. A friend gave me "The Daughter of Time" -- before that I "knew" from school that hunchbacked Richard III murdered the poor little Princes in the Tower.



How many of us were introduced to the subject of the real Richard III via the Tey novel? Show of hands, please.



Katy

  Shakespeare had no reason to follow any history but that which he had readily available.  We all know how badly that was warped.  But his main requirement was to create an engaging experience for all levels of viewers.  As you say, he would happily move people around to his narrative convenience, even if that movement violated the history he did have.  He wrote plays based in history, not history.  That said, one wonders if anyone would think of Richard III much at all without the play.  It is most of the reason for anyone to have read about him at all before the last hundred years, unless they were studying that historical period for some reason.

  And the contradictions are there in the text.  Chief among them is the way he fought, although supposedly with a limp and a withered arm.  A small man fights like a fury with a battle axe, yet has a withered arm and a limp?  Right.  And if he had designs on the throne from the beginning, why not take every excuse to be where Edward was, building up his own power base with which to take over?  That would be the reasonable action for a calculating man to take--stay in the shadows near the throne, gathering followers.  No, he was in the north, where Edward wanted him.  The "kingdom for a horse" speech--he wanted the horse so he could get back to the fight.  A long-term calculator of the kind Shakespeare claimed he was would have run, I think, regrouped, and fought another day.
  Even the Bard does not seem to know how to reconcile the facts with the history he had.  He just made sure his Richard would limp magnificently, willfully, through it all, and in the process created a stage villain audiences still love to hate.
Sheffe

--- On Fri, 3/11/11, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
To:
Date: Friday, March 11, 2011, 11:24 AM







 









Dorothea Preis wrote:

>

> <snip> I had no opinion on Richard III - while the Shakespeare play is performed in Germany, I don't think many people are bothered whether it is historical or not, unless they consider themselves as Shakespeare boffins. <snip>



Carol responds:



I can't tell whether you're referring to people in Germany or people in general. If it's the latter, I'm definitely an exception because it was the Shakespeare play that led me to start investigating Richard. It was obvious to me that Shakespeare's Richard was a caricature, both in terms of deformity and wickedness. I also knew that Shakespeare had placed both Richard and George in a battle fought when they were children in one of the Henry VI plays and made Edmund of Rutland into a helpless child instead of a teenager, in effect switching his age and Richard's, and that he had retained Margaret of Anjou as a character after she was historically dead. Knowing all that made me wonder just how many other liberties he had taken. My research (for a college English class) led me to the distortions perpetrated by More, Vergil, Hall/Holinshed and others, with even such anti-Richard historians as Alison Hanham acquitting him of some of the alleged "crimes" and
admitting that the hunchback and withered arm were fiction. My professor told me about the Richard III Society.



I don't remember how I discovered Kendall (who has, I think, been unfairly criticized for his "narrative" approach--I have yet to encounter an objective historian on the anti-Richard side!), but I do remember wandering through a bookstore and seeing the title "The Sunne in Splendour," which I immediately assumed was a novel about Edward IV. I picked it up out, curious to see how it handled Richard, only to discover that he was the protagonist. It's still my favorite Ricardian novel despite its flaws ("we be," etc., grates on the nerves). I enjoy "Daughter of Time" and am grateful to "Tey" for convincing so many readers to look at Richard with new eyes, but the dated information (and especially the characterization of Buckingham as "a friend of Edward's") keeps it from being a favorite of mine. "We Speak No Treason" is also good, with its view of Richard through the eyes of characters who saw him only from the outside and at some distance.



Carol, who agrees with Kendall's assessment of the Shakespeare play as a triumph for art but a tragedy for history

"They do me wrong and I will not endure it!
Who is it that complains unto the king that I am stern and love him not.
They love his grace but lightly that fill his ears with such dissentious rumours.
I speak no treason man. I say the king is wise and virtuous...."
The same speech then goes on to tell the truth about what Richard did during the Wars.
It ends with the line, aimed at Rivers, which is one of my favourites
"They that fly high have many blasts to shake them.
And when they fall they dash themselves to pieces."

In amongst the poetry are flashes of the truth.
Paul

On 11 Mar 2011, at 18:05, Sheffe wrote:

> Shakespeare had no reason to follow any history but that which he had readily available. We all know how badly that was warped. But his main requirement was to create an engaging experience for all levels of viewers. As you say, he would happily move people around to his narrative convenience, even if that movement violated the history he did have. He wrote plays based in history, not history. That said, one wonders if anyone would think of Richard III much at all without the play. It is most of the reason for anyone to have read about him at all before the last hundred years, unless they were studying that historical period for some reason.
>
> And the contradictions are there in the text. Chief among them is the way he fought, although supposedly with a limp and a withered arm. A small man fights like a fury with a battle axe, yet has a withered arm and a limp? Right. And if he had designs on the throne from the beginning, why not take every excuse to be where Edward was, building up his own power base with which to take over? That would be the reasonable action for a calculating man to take--stay in the shadows near the throne, gathering followers. No, he was in the north, where Edward wanted him. The "kingdom for a horse" speech--he wanted the horse so he could get back to the fight. A long-term calculator of the kind Shakespeare claimed he was would have run, I think, regrouped, and fought another day.
> Even the Bard does not seem to know how to reconcile the facts with the history he had. He just made sure his Richard would limp magnificently, willfully, through it all, and in the process created a stage villain audiences still love to hate.
> Sheffe
>
> --- On Fri, 3/11/11, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
> To:
> Date: Friday, March 11, 2011, 11:24 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dorothea Preis wrote:
>
>>
>
>> <snip> I had no opinion on Richard III - while the Shakespeare play is performed in Germany, I don't think many people are bothered whether it is historical or not, unless they consider themselves as Shakespeare boffins. <snip>
>
>
>
> Carol responds:
>
>
>
> I can't tell whether you're referring to people in Germany or people in general. If it's the latter, I'm definitely an exception because it was the Shakespeare play that led me to start investigating Richard. It was obvious to me that Shakespeare's Richard was a caricature, both in terms of deformity and wickedness. I also knew that Shakespeare had placed both Richard and George in a battle fought when they were children in one of the Henry VI plays and made Edmund of Rutland into a helpless child instead of a teenager, in effect switching his age and Richard's, and that he had retained Margaret of Anjou as a character after she was historically dead. Knowing all that made me wonder just how many other liberties he had taken. My research (for a college English class) led me to the distortions perpetrated by More, Vergil, Hall/Holinshed and others, with even such anti-Richard historians as Alison Hanham acquitting him of some of the alleged "crimes" and
> admitting that the hunchback and withered arm were fiction. My professor told me about the Richard III Society.
>
>
>
> I don't remember how I discovered Kendall (who has, I think, been unfairly criticized for his "narrative" approach--I have yet to encounter an objective historian on the anti-Richard side!), but I do remember wandering through a bookstore and seeing the title "The Sunne in Splendour," which I immediately assumed was a novel about Edward IV. I picked it up out, curious to see how it handled Richard, only to discover that he was the protagonist. It's still my favorite Ricardian novel despite its flaws ("we be," etc., grates on the nerves). I enjoy "Daughter of Time" and am grateful to "Tey" for convincing so many readers to look at Richard with new eyes, but the dated information (and especially the characterization of Buckingham as "a friend of Edward's") keeps it from being a favorite of mine. "We Speak No Treason" is also good, with its view of Richard through the eyes of characters who saw him only from the outside and at some distance.
>
>
>
> Carol, who agrees with Kendall's assessment of the Shakespeare play as a triumph for art but a tragedy for history
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

  Your old habits are good ones.  Rather than death, perhaps, a faint?  Oh, look what happened while I was out! :)
Sheffe

--- On Fri, 3/11/11, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
Subject: Re:
To:
Cc: "Judy Thomson" <judygerard.thomson@...>
Date: Friday, March 11, 2011, 10:59 AM







 









As we used to say in publishing: "If your mother says she loves you, check it

out."



In college, I studied under Burr Brundage, Ph.D., a protege of Arnold Toynbee,

to learn research methods; three corroborating sources were required. My

purposes may allow for less rigor, but old habits die hard : )



Cheers!

Judy Thomson



________________________________

From: Susan <shigginbotham2@...>

To:

Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 10:58:50 PM

Subject: Re:



Croyland says, "There was also taken prisoner William Catesby who occupied a

distinguished place amongst all the advisers of the late king, and whose head

was cut off at Leicester as a last reward for his excellent offices." Quoted in

D. Williams, `The hastily drawn up will of William Catesby, esquire',

Leicestershire Archaeological and Historical Society Transactions, 51 (19756),

4351.



Vergil, quoted in Keith Dockray's Richard III: A Source Book simply says that he

was executed.



Susan Higginbotham



--- In , Judy Thomson

<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Hi, Everyone!

>

> I tried earlier, but I think my message got caught by Daemon Mailer...

>

> I am looking for guidance in re: the death of William Catesby on 25 August

>1485.

>

> Was he beheaded or hanged?

>

> Research is of divided opinions; does anyone know a primary source, other than



> his last will/testament that shall confirm one or the other. The answer will

> shape opinion. I would love three sources, but shall settle for one good

> source...letter? proclamation? burial info (head v. no head or separated)?

> Anything?

>

> Huge THANKS in advance; I've been assured this site will have the most

>reliable,

>

> up-to-date research results. Just setting me on the right course (Website,

> real-world document not yet on line, etc.) will help enormously.

>

> Cheers!

> Judy Gerard Thomson

>

>

> ________________________________

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Linda Brown wrote:

>Me, too; and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.
>
>
>
>
Tey's work was my first introduction to the idea Richard might not be
the monster most people think he is.

I have been off-stage for quite a long while but checked in and found this
thread.



I am sure I have posted this before, but it's been a few years. :-)



I knew nothing about the "little Princes in the Tower" when I signed up for
Dr. Henry Young's English history class at Dickinson College in Carlisle,
Pa. in the late 1960's. I'd always been interested in English history, but
most of my experience through popular media had been the Tudors, via movies
like *Elizabeth the Queen* and *Elizabeth and Essex,* not to mention *The
Adventures of Robin Hood.* :-) It was Dr. Young who thoughtfully assigned us
*The Daughter of Time* as a required text for the course. I found it a
fascinating read, and my interest in Richard has continued ever since!



While not a completely-immersed Ricardian, I do have the portrait of Richard
III from the National Portrait Gallery in London archivally framed and
hanging in pride of place in my living room.



Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and
Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring Richard
do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about listmember
Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned King.*



Best wishes,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier@...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

_____

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Simons
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:55 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!





Linda Brown wrote:

>Me, too; and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.
>
>
>
>
Tey's work was my first introduction to the idea Richard might not be
the monster most people think he is.

BTW, I realize that *The Adventures of Robin Hood* is not a movie about the
Tudor period, in case my wording created some doubt.



Just so's you know. :-)



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier@...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

_____

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 9:54 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!





I have been off-stage for quite a long while but checked in and found this
thread.

I am sure I have posted this before, but it's been a few years. :-)

I knew nothing about the "little Princes in the Tower" when I signed up for
Dr. Henry Young's English history class at Dickinson College in Carlisle,
Pa. in the late 1960's. I'd always been interested in English history, but
most of my experience through popular media had been the Tudors, via movies
like *Elizabeth the Queen* and *Elizabeth and Essex,* not to mention *The
Adventures of Robin Hood.* :-) It was Dr. Young who thoughtfully assigned us
*The Daughter of Time* as a required text for the course. I found it a
fascinating read, and my interest in Richard has continued ever since!

While not a completely-immersed Ricardian, I do have the portrait of Richard
III from the National Portrait Gallery in London archivally framed and
hanging in pride of place in my living room.

Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and
Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring Richard
do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about listmember
Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned King.*

Best wishes,

Johanne

I'm a new member of the group (although I've been a member of the American Society for some time).

I'm interested in the comments about Josephine Tey, as I too was introduced to the cause of Richard by "Daughter of Time." I wondered, however, if anyone noticed that some of the recent posts referring to Richard's "hatred" of Edward IV run directly contrary to one of the chief props of Ms. Tey's argument - namely, that Richard was far too devoted to Edward to have done away with Edward's sons. Moreover, much as I loved "Daughter of Time," I now think some of her case is rather disingenuous, as, in her eagerness to show how little motive Richard had, she downplays the serious dilemmas Richard (and the
realm) faced after Edward died.

That, in my view, is one of the great contributions of Sharon Kay Penman's "Sunne in Splendor" - Ms. Penman always makes the political stakes in any given situation crystal clear.

Tamsin Willard
Hastings-on-Hudson, NY

--- In , "Johanne Tournier" <jltournier@...> wrote:
>
> I have been off-stage for quite a long while but checked in and found this
> thread.
>
>
>
> I am sure I have posted this before, but it's been a few years. :-)
>
>
>
> I knew nothing about the "little Princes in the Tower" when I signed up for
> Dr. Henry Young's English history class at Dickinson College in Carlisle,
> Pa. in the late 1960's. I'd always been interested in English history, but
> most of my experience through popular media had been the Tudors, via movies
> like *Elizabeth the Queen* and *Elizabeth and Essex,* not to mention *The
> Adventures of Robin Hood.* :-) It was Dr. Young who thoughtfully assigned us
> *The Daughter of Time* as a required text for the course. I found it a
> fascinating read, and my interest in Richard has continued ever since!
>
>
>
> While not a completely-immersed Ricardian, I do have the portrait of Richard
> III from the National Portrait Gallery in London archivally framed and
> hanging in pride of place in my living room.
>
>
>
> Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and
> Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring Richard
> do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about listmember
> Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned King.*
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier@...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> _____
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Simons
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:55 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> Linda Brown wrote:
>
> >Me, too; and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Tey's work was my first introduction to the idea Richard might not be
> the monster most people think he is.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Johanne, two non-fiction books that I highly recommend and found quite
readable are Annette Carson's "Richard III: The Maligned King" and Peter
Hancock's "Richard III and the Murder in the Tower." You can find my
reviews of both on my blog (http://tinyurl.com/63m8dj5 and
http://tinyurl.com/yhamln2) and on the US Amazon site. If you haven't
already, do read Sharon Kay Penman's "Sunne in Splendour"--this is the
novel that put me on the real Richard III path. A fictional account of
Richard III's reign that I also highly recommend is "The Broken Sword"
by Rhoda Edwards see my review here <http://tinyurl.com/6do2tao> and on
the US Amazon site). Then, if I might toot my own horn, I'd like to
recommend my own novel about Richard III in the 21st-century. Go to my
website in my signature to read the first chapter, see some reviews, and
more.

Joan
---
author of This Time, a novel about Richard III in the 21st-century
2010 Next Generation Indie Book Awards General Fiction Finalist
website: http://www.joanszechtman.com/
blog: http://rtoaaa.blogspot.com/
ebook: http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/3935

--- In , "Johanne Tournier"
<jltournier@...> wrote:
>
> I have been off-stage for quite a long while but checked in and found
this
> thread.
>
>
>
> I am sure I have posted this before, but it's been a few years. :-)
>
>
>
> I knew nothing about the "little Princes in the Tower" when I signed
up for
> Dr. Henry Young's English history class at Dickinson College in
Carlisle,
> Pa. in the late 1960's. I'd always been interested in English history,
but
> most of my experience through popular media had been the Tudors, via
movies
> like *Elizabeth the Queen* and *Elizabeth and Essex,* not to mention
*The
> Adventures of Robin Hood.* :-) It was Dr. Young who thoughtfully
assigned us
> *The Daughter of Time* as a required text for the course. I found it a
> fascinating read, and my interest in Richard has continued ever since!
>
>
>
> While not a completely-immersed Ricardian, I do have the portrait of
Richard
> III from the National Portrait Gallery in London archivally framed and
> hanging in pride of place in my living room.
>
>
>
> Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and
> Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring
Richard
> do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about
listmember
> Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned King.*
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier@...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> _____
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Simons
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:55 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine
Tey!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> Linda Brown wrote:
>
> >Me, too; and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Tey's work was my first introduction to the idea Richard might not be
> the monster most people think he is.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Annette's book is brilliant 0 I would highly recommend you find a copy if you
can.

Liz




________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 12 March, 2011 13:54:26
Subject: RE: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!

 
I have been off-stage for quite a long while but checked in and found this
thread.

I am sure I have posted this before, but it's been a few years. :-)

I knew nothing about the "little Princes in the Tower" when I signed up for
Dr. Henry Young's English history class at Dickinson College in Carlisle,
Pa. in the late 1960's. I'd always been interested in English history, but
most of my experience through popular media had been the Tudors, via movies
like *Elizabeth the Queen* and *Elizabeth and Essex,* not to mention *The
Adventures of Robin Hood.* :-) It was Dr. Young who thoughtfully assigned us
*The Daughter of Time* as a required text for the course. I found it a
fascinating read, and my interest in Richard has continued ever since!

While not a completely-immersed Ricardian, I do have the portrait of Richard
III from the National Portrait Gallery in London archivally framed and
hanging in pride of place in my living room.

Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and
Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring Richard
do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about listmember
Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned King.*

Best wishes,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier@...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

_____

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Simons
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:55 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!

Linda Brown wrote:

>Me, too; and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.
>
>
>
>
Tey's work was my first introduction to the idea Richard might not be
the monster most people think he is.

I was referring to people in Germany, the majority of whom have never heard of
R3 and couldn't care less. Though I get fairly often a blank look if I refer to
the R3 Society among English speaking people, among Germans this is standard and
then comes the question "But why?" though most people don't wait for an answer.


And I agree with you about Shakespeare's play.

Cheers, Dorothea


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sat, 12 March, 2011 3:24:55 AM
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!


Dorothea Preis wrote:
>
> <snip> I had no opinion on Richard III - while the Shakespeare play is
>performed in Germany, I don't think many people are bothered whether it is
>historical or not, unless they consider themselves as Shakespeare boffins.
><snip>

Carol responds:

I can't tell whether you're referring to people in Germany or people in general.
If it's the latter, I'm definitely an exception because it was the Shakespeare
play that led me to start investigating Richard. It was obvious to me that
Shakespeare's Richard was a caricature, both in terms of deformity and
wickedness. I also knew that Shakespeare had placed both Richard and George in a
battle fought when they were children in one of the Henry VI plays and made
Edmund of Rutland into a helpless child instead of a teenager, in effect
switching his age and Richard's, and that he had retained Margaret of Anjou as a
character after she was historically dead. Knowing all that made me wonder just
how many other liberties he had taken. My research (for a college English class)
led me to the distortions perpetrated by More, Vergil, Hall/Holinshed and
others, with even such anti-Richard historians as Alison Hanham acquitting him
of some of the alleged "crimes" and admitting that the hunchback and withered
arm were fiction. My professor told me about the Richard III Society.

I don't remember how I discovered Kendall (who has, I think, been unfairly
criticized for his "narrative" approach--I have yet to encounter an objective
historian on the anti-Richard side!), but I do remember wandering through a
bookstore and seeing the title "The Sunne in Splendour," which I immediately
assumed was a novel about Edward IV. I picked it up out, curious to see how it
handled Richard, only to discover that he was the protagonist. It's still my
favorite Ricardian novel despite its flaws ("we be," etc., grates on the
nerves). I enjoy "Daughter of Time" and am grateful to "Tey" for convincing so
many readers to look at Richard with new eyes, but the dated information (and
especially the characterization of Buckingham as "a friend of Edward's") keeps
it from being a favorite of mine. "We Speak No Treason" is also good, with its
view of Richard through the eyes of characters who saw him only from the outside
and at some distance.

Carol, who agrees with Kendall's assessment of the Shakespeare play as a triumph
for art but a tragedy for history

Yes, I think so too, and also 'The Sunne in Splendour' is a beautiful tapestry of a novel which I enjoyed immensely.

I also liked 'The Broken Sword' by Rhoda Edwards - I just wish that I could change the endings to these novels. Wish I had been at Bosworth with a machine gun!

Jennifer

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Annette's book is brilliant 0 I would highly recommend you find a copy if you
> can.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 12 March, 2011 13:54:26
> Subject: RE: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
>
>  
> I have been off-stage for quite a long while but checked in and found this
> thread.
>
> I am sure I have posted this before, but it's been a few years. :-)
>
> I knew nothing about the "little Princes in the Tower" when I signed up for
> Dr. Henry Young's English history class at Dickinson College in Carlisle,
> Pa. in the late 1960's. I'd always been interested in English history, but
> most of my experience through popular media had been the Tudors, via movies
> like *Elizabeth the Queen* and *Elizabeth and Essex,* not to mention *The
> Adventures of Robin Hood.* :-) It was Dr. Young who thoughtfully assigned us
> *The Daughter of Time* as a required text for the course. I found it a
> fascinating read, and my interest in Richard has continued ever since!
>
> While not a completely-immersed Ricardian, I do have the portrait of Richard
> III from the National Portrait Gallery in London archivally framed and
> hanging in pride of place in my living room.
>
> Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and
> Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring Richard
> do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about listmember
> Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned King.*
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier@...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> _____
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Simons
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:55 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
>
> Linda Brown wrote:
>
> >Me, too; and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Tey's work was my first introduction to the idea Richard might not be
> the monster most people think he is.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Or even just some nice rifles...they were, apparently, surprised about really finding so many cannon balls.
Sheffe

--- On Mon, 3/14/11, dances_with_spaniels <[email protected]> wrote:

From: dances_with_spaniels <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!
To:
Date: Monday, March 14, 2011, 1:13 AM







 









Yes, I think so too, and also 'The Sunne in Splendour' is a beautiful tapestry of a novel which I enjoyed immensely.



I also liked 'The Broken Sword' by Rhoda Edwards - I just wish that I could change the endings to these novels. Wish I had been at Bosworth with a machine gun!



Jennifer



--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

>

> Annette's book is brilliant 0 I would highly recommend you find a copy if you

> can.

>

> Liz

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier@...>

> To:

> Sent: Saturday, 12 March, 2011 13:54:26

> Subject: RE: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!

>

>  

> I have been off-stage for quite a long while but checked in and found this

> thread.

>

> I am sure I have posted this before, but it's been a few years. :-)

>

> I knew nothing about the "little Princes in the Tower" when I signed up for

> Dr. Henry Young's English history class at Dickinson College in Carlisle,

> Pa. in the late 1960's. I'd always been interested in English history, but

> most of my experience through popular media had been the Tudors, via movies

> like *Elizabeth the Queen* and *Elizabeth and Essex,* not to mention *The

> Adventures of Robin Hood.* :-) It was Dr. Young who thoughtfully assigned us

> *The Daughter of Time* as a required text for the course. I found it a

> fascinating read, and my interest in Richard has continued ever since!

>

> While not a completely-immersed Ricardian, I do have the portrait of Richard

> III from the National Portrait Gallery in London archivally framed and

> hanging in pride of place in my living room.

>

> Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and

> Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring Richard

> do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about listmember

> Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned King.*

>

> Best wishes,

>

> Johanne

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> Johanne L. Tournier

>

> Email - jltournier@...

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ed Simons

> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:55 PM

> To:

> Subject: Re: Re: Thank you, Josephine Tey!!!

>

> Linda Brown wrote:

>

> >Me, too; and it has remained one of my favourite books ever since.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> Tey's work was my first introduction to the idea Richard might not be

> the monster most people think he is.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Johanne
Besides Tey, I have *Sunne in Splendour,* *We Speak No Treason,* and
Kendall's book in my library. What other historical novels featuring
Richard do you consider worthy? I recall reading favourable things about
listmember Annette Carson's recent book, *Richard III: the Maligned
King.*

Ann:
*The White Boar* and its sequel, *The Wrong Plantagenet* by
Marian Palmer.

L.P.H.,

Ann

Feudalism: when it's your Count that votes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~