Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Hi!

My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
so I'll repost these queries:

1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's
body at the Greyfriars?

Many thanks, in advance!
Judy

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> so I'll repost these queries:
>
> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's
> body at the Greyfriars?
>
> Many thanks, in advance!
> Judy


I think I have seen a name for him but, of course, I don't remember where.

There is a note from Richard to Louis of France, asking for safe passage through that country for his herald on a trip to buy wine for Richard and his queen. I believe the man's name is given in the note, but of course he may not have been Blanc Sanglier.

(The note was in Latin, so the translation may have been imprecise -- "herald" could have been "messenger.")

Katy

Is that the request for "haute" French wine? I guess the "ancient enemy" still
made superior beverages.... Yes, the person entrusted isn't crystal clear....

Thanks, Katy!



________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 2:05:23 PM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald




--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> so I'll repost these queries:
>
> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's

> body at the Greyfriars?
>
> Many thanks, in advance!
> Judy


I think I have seen a name for him but, of course, I don't remember where.

There is a note from Richard to Louis of France, asking for safe passage through
that country for his herald on a trip to buy wine for Richard and his queen. I
believe the man's name is given in the note, but of course he may not have been
Blanc Sanglier.

(The note was in Latin, so the translation may have been imprecise -- "herald"
could have been "messenger.")

Katy

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> so I'll repost these queries:
>
> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's
> body at the Greyfriars?
>
> Many thanks, in advance!
> Judy



I looked in the web site of the College of Heralds and found that John Water was York Herald in 1484:

http://college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/06.htm

There doesn't seem to be any Blanc Sanglier Herald.

You might also check the records of the College of Arms.

I recall reading (*somewhere*) that it was a pursuivant, not a herald, who rode back to Leicester with Richard's body.

Following Blanc Sanglier Pursuivant might lead you to a name, but I couldn't find one in superficial googling.

Katy

Many thanks, Katy! : )



________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:38:49 AM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald




--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> so I'll repost these queries:
>
> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's

> body at the Greyfriars?
>
> Many thanks, in advance!
> Judy

I looked in the web site of the College of Heralds and found that John Water was
York Herald in 1484:

http://college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/06.htm

There doesn't seem to be any Blanc Sanglier Herald.

You might also check the records of the College of Arms.

I recall reading (*somewhere*) that it was a pursuivant, not a herald, who rode
back to Leicester with Richard's body.

Following Blanc Sanglier Pursuivant might lead you to a name, but I couldn't
find one in superficial googling.

Katy

I've just checked the index to Harley 433 and it suggests (no more than that) that he may have been a son of John More, who was Norroy King of Arms.
Anyway, he would have been Richard's private herald before he became king, and would have been out of a job after Bosworth.

Richard sent him to France with letters for Louis XI, and then wrote to him over there asking him to purchase some wines of Burgundy and "La Haute France" (he also wrote to Louis in French asking him to get his officers to facilitate this, and it is this letter that survives). So La Haute France - High France - was a region. I don't know what region it was, but presumably mountainous. The German-speaking areas of the Alps were known as High Germany, so maybe La Haute France was the French Alps + possibly the French-speaking areas of Switzerland. Modern departements in SE France include Haute-Provence and Alpes-de-Haute-Provence.

Anyway, Blanc Sanglier must have had an interesting trip and his wine-tasting tour would have given him the opportunity to meet several local potentates.

Marie


--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Many thanks, Katy! : )
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:38:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>
>
>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson
> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > so I'll repost these queries:
> >
> > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's
>
> > body at the Greyfriars?
> >
> > Many thanks, in advance!
> > Judy
>
> I looked in the web site of the College of Heralds and found that John Water was
> York Herald in 1484:
>
> http://college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/06.htm
>
> There doesn't seem to be any Blanc Sanglier Herald.
>
> You might also check the records of the College of Arms.
>
> I recall reading (*somewhere*) that it was a pursuivant, not a herald, who rode
> back to Leicester with Richard's body.
>
> Following Blanc Sanglier Pursuivant might lead you to a name, but I couldn't
> find one in superficial googling.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bravo, Marie!

I have access to at least one of those letters...the one from Richard, via Peter
Hammond from the "old days." More, eh? Very interesting.

The Index volume of 433 is one of the two I'm missing; this has hampered
research for some time.

Many thanks! I'd raise a glass of Chateau Rothschilde to ye!

Judy



________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 7:17:10 PM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald




I've just checked the index to Harley 433 and it suggests (no more than that)
that he may have been a son of John More, who was Norroy King of Arms.
Anyway, he would have been Richard's private herald before he became king, and
would have been out of a job after Bosworth.


Richard sent him to France with letters for Louis XI, and then wrote to him over
there asking him to purchase some wines of Burgundy and "La Haute France" (he
also wrote to Louis in French asking him to get his officers to facilitate this,
and it is this letter that survives). So La Haute France - High France - was a
region. I don't know what region it was, but presumably mountainous. The
German-speaking areas of the Alps were known as High Germany, so maybe La Haute
France was the French Alps + possibly the French-speaking areas of Switzerland.
Modern departements in SE France include Haute-Provence and
Alpes-de-Haute-Provence.

Anyway, Blanc Sanglier must have had an interesting trip and his wine-tasting
tour would have given him the opportunity to meet several local potentates.


Marie

--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Many thanks, Katy! : )
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:38:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>
>
>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson
> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > so I'll repost these queries:
> >
> > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
>Richard's
>
>
> > body at the Greyfriars?
> >
> > Many thanks, in advance!
> > Judy
>
> I looked in the web site of the College of Heralds and found that John Water
>was
>
> York Herald in 1484:
>
> http://college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/06.htm
>
> There doesn't seem to be any Blanc Sanglier Herald.
>
> You might also check the records of the College of Arms.
>
> I recall reading (*somewhere*) that it was a pursuivant, not a herald, who rode
>
> back to Leicester with Richard's body.
>
> Following Blanc Sanglier Pursuivant might lead you to a name, but I couldn't
> find one in superficial googling.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> so I'll repost these queries:
>
> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's
> body at the Greyfriars?
>
> Many thanks, in advance!
> Judy

Carol responds:

There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so record-keeping for his reign is spotty.

Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can find the actual book.

Carol, hoping that the link works

Many thanks, Carol!

And to all who've responded to my queries. I very much appreciate each and every
one of ya'll (drawl, from my years in central Florida)!
: )
Judy



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:02:16 PM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald




--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> so I'll repost these queries:
>
> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's

> body at the Greyfriars?
>
> Many thanks, in advance!
> Judy

Carol responds:

There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
record-keeping for his reign is spotty.

Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false


If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
find the actual book.

Carol, hoping that the link works

Dear Carol,

Upon examination and cross-referencing, the book to which you directed me is a
lovely resource, indeed, and I thank you again!

Judy Thomson



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 8:02:16 PM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald




--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> so I'll repost these queries:
>
> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's

> body at the Greyfriars?
>
> Many thanks, in advance!
> Judy

Carol responds:

There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
record-keeping for his reign is spotty.

Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false


If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
find the actual book.

Carol, hoping that the link works

Hi,

(Groan, writing this again – my internet went down when I was halfway through sending last time.)

First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.

So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had had the same.
Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William Champney.
I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it is very probably correct.
The other puzzle is the other way about – ie a herald with a name but no job title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry VII after Bosworth.
I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the records of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in the published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.

By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments, etc, she is very good.

Marie





--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > so I'll repost these queries:
> >
> > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of Richard's
> > body at the Greyfriars?
> >
> > Many thanks, in advance!
> > Judy
>
> Carol responds:
>
> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
>
> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can find the actual book.
>
> Carol, hoping that the link works
>

Marie,

You're a Rock Star!!!

Patty and I both thank you!

Love, J



________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald



Hi,

(Groan, writing this again  my internet went down when I was halfway through
sending last time.)

First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.

So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
had the same.

Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
Champney.
I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
is very probably correct.

The other puzzle is the other way about  ie a herald with a name but no job
title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
VII after Bosworth.
I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the records
of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in the
published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.


By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
etc, she is very good.

Marie

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson
><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > so I'll repost these queries:
> >
> > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
>Richard's
>
> > body at the Greyfriars?
> >
> > Many thanks, in advance!
> > Judy
>
> Carol responds:
>
> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
>dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
>pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
>lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
>named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
>record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
>
> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>e
>
> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
>find the actual book.
>
> Carol, hoping that the link works
>

Judy Thomson wrote:
>
> Dear Carol,
>
> Upon examination and cross-referencing, the book to which you directed me is a lovely resource, indeed, and I thank you again!

Carol responds:

You're very welcome. I like it, too, despite the old-fashioned format and the writer's assumption that Richard was a wicked king. I especially like his moral indignation at Henry Tudor's treatment of Richard's body after Bosworth.

Carol, who was and is still curious about Blanc Sanglier and especially what happened to him after that sad incident

Dear Carol,

I promise to treat poor Sanglier with utmost dignity for the page or two where
others speak of his heroic last duties.

Sincerely,
Judy



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Sun, March 27, 2011 10:20:21 AM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald


Judy Thomson wrote:
>
> Dear Carol,
>
> Upon examination and cross-referencing, the book to which you directed me is a
>lovely resource, indeed, and I thank you again!

Carol responds:

You're very welcome. I like it, too, despite the old-fashioned format and the
writer's assumption that Richard was a wicked king. I especially like his moral
indignation at Henry Tudor's treatment of Richard's body after Bosworth.

Carol, who was and is still curious about Blanc Sanglier and especially what
happened to him after that sad incident

Shucks, thanks Judy.

With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc Sanglier as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's recent book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to College of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is available online:-

"Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421, calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238) says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More, Norroy 1478."
(From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms, Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)

Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie up two loose ends).

Marie



--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Marie,
>
> You're a Rock Star!!!
>
> Patty and I both thank you!
>
> Love, J
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> (Groan, writing this again â€" my internet went down when I was halfway through
> sending last time.)
>
> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>
> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
> had the same.
>
> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
> Champney.
> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
> is very probably correct.
>
> The other puzzle is the other way about â€" ie a herald with a name but no job
> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
> VII after Bosworth.
> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the records
> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in the
> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>
>
> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
> etc, she is very good.
>
> Marie
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson
> ><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > > so I'll repost these queries:
> > >
> > > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
> >Richard's
> >
> > > body at the Greyfriars?
> > >
> > > Many thanks, in advance!
> > > Judy
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
> >dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
> >pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
> >lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
> >named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
> >kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
> >record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
> >
> > Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
> >
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >e
> >
> > If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
> >find the actual book.
> >
> > Carol, hoping that the link works
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dear Marie,

Thanks so much for all your help!

Years ago, in a role-playing Game at our local Chapter, we ID'd the Herald as
Watkyns, based on that same attainder...and until these Forum "conversations," I
had simply relied on our old info (my friend Patty and I typed up close to 500
pages of stuff, but I used Post-Its for ref cites, and between 1985 and now, a
lot of these PIs detached and "reattached" themselves, and I became fairly
glum). However, it was time for a thorough updating!

A former Righte Trusty & Welbeloved Chicagoland Chapter (and game) Mate, Beth
Argall, now Beth Stone, has reappeared, living in the UK; had I not signed up
for UK membership, this year, and been a bit of a serial-querier, I would not
have discovered her presence. Very mirabile dictu! While I'm terribly
Facebook-impaired, etc., now I'm happy as a lark....

Cheers!
Judy



________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sat, April 2, 2011 4:30:46 PM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald



Shucks, thanks Judy.

With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc Sanglier
as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's recent
book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to College
of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is
available online:-

"Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body
after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421,
calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238)
says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More,
Norroy 1478."
(From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms,
Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)

Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to
think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted
after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie
up two loose ends).

Marie

--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Marie,
>
> You're a Rock Star!!!
>
> Patty and I both thank you!
>
> Love, J
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>
> sending last time.)
>
> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>
> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
> had the same.
>
> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>
> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
> Champney.
> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>
> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it

> is very probably correct.
>
> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job

> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry

> VII after Bosworth.
> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>
> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the

> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>
> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the
>records
>
> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in
>the
>
> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>
>
> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
> etc, she is very good.
>
> Marie
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson
> ><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > > so I'll repost these queries:
> > >
> > > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
> >Richard's
> >
> > > body at the Greyfriars?
> > >
> > > Many thanks, in advance!
> > > Judy
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather

> >dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
> >pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a

> >lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
> >named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>
> >kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
> >record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
> >
> > Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
> >
>>http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>e
> >e
> >
> > If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you
>can
>
> >find the actual book.
> >
> > Carol, hoping that the link works
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Is Norrey a first name? Unusual to say the least. As in Norris?
But well done for tracking him down.
Paul

On 2 Apr 2011, at 22:30, mariewalsh2003 wrote:

>
> Shucks, thanks Judy.
>
> With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc Sanglier as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's recent book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to College of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is available online:-
>
> "Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
> Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421, calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238) says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More, Norroy 1478."
> (From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms, Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)
>
> Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie up two loose ends).
>
> Marie
>
>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>>
>> Marie,
>>
>> You're a Rock Star!!!
>>
>> Patty and I both thank you!
>>
>> Love, J
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
>> To:
>> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>> sending last time.)
>>
>> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>>
>> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
>> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
>> had the same.
>>
>> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
>> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
>> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
>> Champney.
>> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
>> is very probably correct.
>>
>> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job
>> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
>> VII after Bosworth.
>> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
>> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
>> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
>> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
>> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
>> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the records
>> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in the
>> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>>
>>
>> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
>> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
>> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
>> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
>> etc, she is very good.
>>
>> Marie
>>
>> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
>>>> so I'll repost these queries:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
>>>> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
>>> Richard's
>>>
>>>> body at the Greyfriars?
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks, in advance!
>>>> Judy
>>>
>>> Carol responds:
>>>
>>> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
>>> dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
>>> pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
>>> lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
>>> named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>>> kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
>>> record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
>>>
>>> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
>>>
>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>> e
>>>
>>> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
>>> find the actual book.
>>>
>>> Carol, hoping that the link works
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Norrey, or Norroy as it is spelt these days, was his title as a herald (Norroy King of Arms, ie King at arms for the north parts; his southern counterpart is Surrey King at Arms). His name was John More. Amazing that the Great Chronicle mistook him for a mere pursuivant.

Marie


--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> Is Norrey a first name? Unusual to say the least. As in Norris?
> But well done for tracking him down.
> Paul
>
> On 2 Apr 2011, at 22:30, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> >
> > Shucks, thanks Judy.
> >
> > With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc Sanglier as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's recent book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to College of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is available online:-
> >
> > "Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
> > Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421, calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238) says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More, Norroy 1478."
> > (From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms, Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)
> >
> > Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie up two loose ends).
> >
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Marie,
> >>
> >> You're a Rock Star!!!
> >>
> >> Patty and I both thank you!
> >>
> >> Love, J
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> (Groan, writing this again â€" my internet went down when I was halfway through
> >> sending last time.)
> >>
> >> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
> >>
> >> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
> >> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
> >> had the same.
> >>
> >> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
> >> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
> >> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
> >> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
> >> Champney.
> >> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
> >> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
> >> is very probably correct.
> >>
> >> The other puzzle is the other way about â€" ie a herald with a name but no job
> >> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
> >> VII after Bosworth.
> >> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
> >> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
> >> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
> >> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
> >> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
> >> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
> >> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
> >> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the records
> >> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in the
> >> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
> >>
> >>
> >> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
> >> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
> >> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
> >> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
> >> etc, she is very good.
> >>
> >> Marie
> >>
> >> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In , Judy Thomson
> >>> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi!
> >>>>
> >>>> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> >>>> so I'll repost these queries:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> >>>> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
> >>> Richard's
> >>>
> >>>> body at the Greyfriars?
> >>>>
> >>>> Many thanks, in advance!
> >>>> Judy
> >>>
> >>> Carol responds:
> >>>
> >>> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
> >>> dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
> >>> pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
> >>> lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
> >>> named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
> >>> kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
> >>> record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
> >>>
> >>> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
> >>>
> >>> http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >>> e
> >>>
> >>> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
> >>> find the actual book.
> >>>
> >>> Carol, hoping that the link works
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Many of us in the UK have met your former colleague now;)

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald



Dear Marie,

Thanks so much for all your help!

Years ago, in a role-playing Game at our local Chapter, we ID'd the Herald as
Watkyns, based on that same attainder...and until these Forum "conversations," I
had simply relied on our old info (my friend Patty and I typed up close to 500
pages of stuff, but I used Post-Its for ref cites, and between 1985 and now, a
lot of these PIs detached and "reattached" themselves, and I became fairly
glum). However, it was time for a thorough updating!

A former Righte Trusty & Welbeloved Chicagoland Chapter (and game) Mate, Beth
Argall, now Beth Stone, has reappeared, living in the UK; had I not signed up
for UK membership, this year, and been a bit of a serial-querier, I would not
have discovered her presence. Very mirabile dictu! While I'm terribly
Facebook-impaired, etc., now I'm happy as a lark....

Cheers!
Judy

________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sat, April 2, 2011 4:30:46 PM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Shucks, thanks Judy.

With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc Sanglier
as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's recent
book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to College
of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is
available online:-

"Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body
after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421,
calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238)
says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More,
Norroy 1478."
(From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms,
Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)

Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to
think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted
after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie
up two loose ends).

Marie

--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Marie,
>
> You're a Rock Star!!!
>
> Patty and I both thank you!
>
> Love, J
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>
> sending last time.)
>
> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>
> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
> had the same.
>
> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>
> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
> Champney.
> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>
> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it

> is very probably correct.
>
> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job

> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry

> VII after Bosworth.
> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>
> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the

> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>
> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the
>records
>
> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in
>the
>
> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>
>
> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
> etc, she is very good.
>
> Marie
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson
> ><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > > so I'll repost these queries:
> > >
> > > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
> >Richard's
> >
> > > body at the Greyfriars?
> > >
> > > Many thanks, in advance!
> > > Judy
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather

> >dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
> >pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a

> >lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
> >named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>
> >kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
> >record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
> >
> > Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
> >
>>http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>e
> >e
> >
> > If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you
>can
>
> >find the actual book.
> >
> > Carol, hoping that the link works
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Good for you!
Give Beth a hug for me!

Cheers!
Judy



________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 4:02:26 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald


Many of us in the UK have met your former colleague now;)

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Dear Marie,

Thanks so much for all your help!

Years ago, in a role-playing Game at our local Chapter, we ID'd the Herald as
Watkyns, based on that same attainder...and until these Forum "conversations," I

had simply relied on our old info (my friend Patty and I typed up close to 500
pages of stuff, but I used Post-Its for ref cites, and between 1985 and now, a
lot of these PIs detached and "reattached" themselves, and I became fairly
glum). However, it was time for a thorough updating!

A former Righte Trusty & Welbeloved Chicagoland Chapter (and game) Mate, Beth
Argall, now Beth Stone, has reappeared, living in the UK; had I not signed up
for UK membership, this year, and been a bit of a serial-querier, I would not
have discovered her presence. Very mirabile dictu! While I'm terribly
Facebook-impaired, etc., now I'm happy as a lark....

Cheers!
Judy

________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sat, April 2, 2011 4:30:46 PM
Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Shucks, thanks Judy.

With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc Sanglier

as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's recent
book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to College
of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is
available online:-

"Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body
after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421,

calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238)
says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More,
Norroy 1478."
(From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms,
Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)

Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to
think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted
after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie
up two loose ends).

Marie

--- In , Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Marie,
>
> You're a Rock Star!!!
>
> Patty and I both thank you!
>
> Love, J
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>
>
> sending last time.)
>
> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>
> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
> had the same.
>
> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>
>
> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
> Champney.
> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>
>
> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it


> is very probably correct.
>
> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job


> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry


> VII after Bosworth.
> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>
>
> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the


> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>
>
> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the
>records
>
> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in
>the
>
> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>
>
> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
> etc, she is very good.
>
> Marie
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson
> ><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
> > > so I'll repost these queries:
> > >
> > > 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
> > > 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
> >Richard's
> >
> > > body at the Greyfriars?
> > >
> > > Many thanks, in advance!
> > > Judy
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather


> >dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
> >pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a


> >lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
> >named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>
>
> >kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
> >record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
> >
> > Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
> >
>>http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>
>e
> >e
> >
> > If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you
>can
>
> >find the actual book.
> >
> > Carol, hoping that the link works
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Duh! Do I feel stupid or what? :-)
thanks for clearing that up for me.
Wonder what Richard would have done had he known what another More would do for his reputation!
Paul


On 3 Apr 2011, at 09:55, mariewalsh2003 wrote:

>
> Norrey, or Norroy as it is spelt these days, was his title as a herald (Norroy King of Arms, ie King at arms for the north parts; his southern counterpart is Surrey King at Arms). His name was John More. Amazing that the Great Chronicle mistook him for a mere pursuivant.
>
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>>
>> Is Norrey a first name? Unusual to say the least. As in Norris?
>> But well done for tracking him down.
>> Paul
>>
>> On 2 Apr 2011, at 22:30, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Shucks, thanks Judy.
>>>
>>> With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc Sanglier as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's recent book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to College of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is available online:-
>>>
>>> "Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
>>> Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421, calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238) says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More, Norroy 1478."
>>> (From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms, Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)
>>>
>>> Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie up two loose ends).
>>>
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Marie,
>>>>
>>>> You're a Rock Star!!!
>>>>
>>>> Patty and I both thank you!
>>>>
>>>> Love, J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>>>> sending last time.)
>>>>
>>>> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>>>>
>>>> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
>>>> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
>>>> had the same.
>>>>
>>>> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>>>> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
>>>> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
>>>> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
>>>> Champney.
>>>> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>>>> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
>>>> is very probably correct.
>>>>
>>>> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job
>>>> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
>>>> VII after Bosworth.
>>>> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
>>>> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands
>>>> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
>>>> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>>>> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
>>>> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
>>>> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>>>> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the records
>>>> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in the
>>>> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
>>>> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
>>>> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
>>>> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
>>>> etc, she is very good.
>>>>
>>>> Marie
>>>>
>>>> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>>>> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
>>>>>> so I'll repost these queries:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
>>>>>> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
>>>>> Richard's
>>>>>
>>>>>> body at the Greyfriars?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks, in advance!
>>>>>> Judy
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol responds:
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
>>>>> dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
>>>>> pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
>>>>> lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
>>>>> named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>>>>> kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
>>>>> record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>>>> e
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
>>>>> find the actual book.
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol, hoping that the link works
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Dear Paul et Marie,

If only that writer had been named Torrey/Thiery/et al., it might account for
the recent behaviour of some of my mother's relations by marriage....

I wrote a brief comment on Joan Szechtman's blog, in re: More's Code, that
suggests (nothing terribly original, mind you) that More was so over the top and
full of errors, and his narrative ends pre- the grand entrance of Richmond,
because it, like Utopia, is satiric and sly. yes, it's a cautionary tale for
would-be tyrants, but Richard is like the character Macbird in the play about
Lyndon Johnson (flashback time...).

Cheers!
Judy





________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 4:49:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Duh! Do I feel stupid or what? :-)
thanks for clearing that up for me.
Wonder what Richard would have done had he known what another More would do for
his reputation!
Paul


On 3 Apr 2011, at 09:55, mariewalsh2003 wrote:

>
> Norrey, or Norroy as it is spelt these days, was his title as a herald (Norroy
>King of Arms, ie King at arms for the north parts; his southern counterpart is
>Surrey King at Arms). His name was John More. Amazing that the Great Chronicle
>mistook him for a mere pursuivant.
>
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
>wrote:
>>
>> Is Norrey a first name? Unusual to say the least. As in Norris?
>> But well done for tracking him down.
>> Paul
>>
>> On 2 Apr 2011, at 22:30, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Shucks, thanks Judy.
>>>
>>> With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc
>>>Sanglier as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's
>>>recent book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to
>>>College of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is
>>>available online:-
>>>
>>> "Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
>>> Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body
>>>after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421,
>>>calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238)
>>>says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More,
>>>Norroy 1478."
>>> (From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms,
>>>Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL:
>>>http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)
>>>
>>> Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to
>>>think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted
>>>after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie
>>>up two loose ends).
>>>
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Marie,
>>>>
>>>> You're a Rock Star!!!
>>>>
>>>> Patty and I both thank you!
>>>>
>>>> Love, J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>>>>
>>>> sending last time.)
>>>>
>>>> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>>>>
>>>> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
>>>> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
>>
>>>> had the same.
>>>>
>>>> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>>>>
>>>> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
>
>>>> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
>>>> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
>>>> Champney.
>>>> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>>>>
>>>> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
>>>
>>>> is very probably correct.
>>>>
>>>> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job
>>>
>>>> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
>>>
>>>> VII after Bosworth.
>>>> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
>>>> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands

>>>> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
>
>>>> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>>>>
>>>> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
>>
>>>> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
>>>
>>>> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>>>>
>>>> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the
>>>>records
>>>>
>>>> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
>>>> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
>>>> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
>
>>>> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
>>
>>>> etc, she is very good.
>>>>
>>>> Marie
>>>>
>>>> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>

>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>>>> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
>>>>>> so I'll repost these queries:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
>>>>>> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
>>>>> Richard's
>>>>>
>>>>>> body at the Greyfriars?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks, in advance!
>>>>>> Judy
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol responds:
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
>>
>>>>> dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
>
>>>>> pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
>>>
>>>>> lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
>>
>>>>> named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>>>>
>>>>> kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
>
>>>>> record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>>>>e
>>>>> e
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
>>>>
>>>>> find the actual book.
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol, hoping that the link works
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Incidentally, Beth Stone is the Content Manager of the website so she has presumably seen your posts already!

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald



Dear Paul et Marie,

If only that writer had been named Torrey/Thiery/et al., it might account for
the recent behaviour of some of my mother's relations by marriage....

I wrote a brief comment on Joan Szechtman's blog, in re: More's Code, that
suggests (nothing terribly original, mind you) that More was so over the top and
full of errors, and his narrative ends pre- the grand entrance of Richmond,
because it, like Utopia, is satiric and sly. yes, it's a cautionary tale for
would-be tyrants, but Richard is like the character Macbird in the play about
Lyndon Johnson (flashback time...).

Cheers!
Judy

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 4:49:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Duh! Do I feel stupid or what? :-)
thanks for clearing that up for me.
Wonder what Richard would have done had he known what another More would do for
his reputation!
Paul

On 3 Apr 2011, at 09:55, mariewalsh2003 wrote:

>
> Norrey, or Norroy as it is spelt these days, was his title as a herald (Norroy
>King of Arms, ie King at arms for the north parts; his southern counterpart is
>Surrey King at Arms). His name was John More. Amazing that the Great Chronicle
>mistook him for a mere pursuivant.
>
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
>wrote:
>>
>> Is Norrey a first name? Unusual to say the least. As in Norris?
>> But well done for tracking him down.
>> Paul
>>
>> On 2 Apr 2011, at 22:30, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Shucks, thanks Judy.
>>>
>>> With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc
>>>Sanglier as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's
>>>recent book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to
>>>College of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is
>>>available online:-
>>>
>>> "Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
>>> Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body
>>>after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421,
>>>calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238)
>>>says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More,
>>>Norroy 1478."
>>> (From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms,
>>>Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL:
>>>http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)
>>>
>>> Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to
>>>think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted
>>>after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie
>>>up two loose ends).
>>>
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Marie,
>>>>
>>>> You're a Rock Star!!!
>>>>
>>>> Patty and I both thank you!
>>>>
>>>> Love, J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>>>>
>>>> sending last time.)
>>>>
>>>> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>>>>
>>>> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
>>>> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
>>
>>>> had the same.
>>>>
>>>> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>>>>
>>>> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
>
>>>> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
>>>> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
>>>> Champney.
>>>> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>>>>
>>>> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
>>>
>>>> is very probably correct.
>>>>
>>>> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job
>>>
>>>> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
>>>
>>>> VII after Bosworth.
>>>> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
>>>> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands

>>>> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
>
>>>> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>>>>
>>>> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
>>
>>>> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
>>>
>>>> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>>>>
>>>> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the
>>>>records
>>>>
>>>> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
>>>> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
>>>> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
>
>>>> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
>>
>>>> etc, she is very good.
>>>>
>>>> Marie
>>>>
>>>> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>

>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>>>> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
>>>>>> so I'll repost these queries:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
>>>>>> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
>>>>> Richard's
>>>>>
>>>>>> body at the Greyfriars?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks, in advance!
>>>>>> Judy
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol responds:
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
>>
>>>>> dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
>
>>>>> pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
>>>
>>>>> lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
>>
>>>>> named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>>>>
>>>>> kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
>
>>>>> record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>>>>e
>>>>> e
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
>>>>
>>>>> find the actual book.
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol, hoping that the link works
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Mille Grazie, Stephen! Shout out to Beth from Judy....



________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 8:35:55 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald


Incidentally, Beth Stone is the Content Manager of the website so she has
presumably seen your posts already!

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Dear Paul et Marie,

If only that writer had been named Torrey/Thiery/et al., it might account for
the recent behaviour of some of my mother's relations by marriage....

I wrote a brief comment on Joan Szechtman's blog, in re: More's Code, that
suggests (nothing terribly original, mind you) that More was so over the top and

full of errors, and his narrative ends pre- the grand entrance of Richmond,
because it, like Utopia, is satiric and sly. yes, it's a cautionary tale for
would-be tyrants, but Richard is like the character Macbird in the play about
Lyndon Johnson (flashback time...).

Cheers!
Judy

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, April 4, 2011 4:49:57 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald

Duh! Do I feel stupid or what? :-)
thanks for clearing that up for me.
Wonder what Richard would have done had he known what another More would do for
his reputation!
Paul

On 3 Apr 2011, at 09:55, mariewalsh2003 wrote:

>
> Norrey, or Norroy as it is spelt these days, was his title as a herald (Norroy

>King of Arms, ie King at arms for the north parts; his southern counterpart is
>Surrey King at Arms). His name was John More. Amazing that the Great Chronicle
>mistook him for a mere pursuivant.
>
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
>
>wrote:
>>
>> Is Norrey a first name? Unusual to say the least. As in Norris?
>> But well done for tracking him down.
>> Paul
>>
>> On 2 Apr 2011, at 22:30, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Shucks, thanks Judy.
>>>
>>> With some help, I have got to the source of the identification of Blanc
>>>Sanglier as a son of John More, Norroy. Following a reference in Peter Hammond's
>>>
>>>recent book "Richard III and the Bosworth Campaign" (p. 149, n. 37) took me to
>
>>>College of Arms, Surbey of London, Monograph 16,ed WH Godfrey, p. 238, which is
>>
>>>available online:-
>>>
>>> "Blanc Sanglier, before 1485.
>>> Pursuivant of Richard III before and after accession; rescued Richard's body

>>>after Bosworth and carried it to Leicester for burial. Hall's Chronicle, p. 421,
>>>
>>>calls him 'Blaunche Senglier', but The Great Chronicle of London (1938, p. 238)
>>
>>>says 'a pursevaunt callid Norrey'; must therefore have been s. of John More,
>>>Norroy 1478."
>>> (From: 'Additional officers', Survey of London Monograph 16: College of Arms,
>
>>>Queen Victoria Street (1963), pp. 229-306. URL:
>>>http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=118267&strquery=sanglier)
>>>
>>> Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to
>
>>>think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted
>>
>>>after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie
>>
>>>up two loose ends).
>>>
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>><judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Marie,
>>>>
>>>> You're a Rock Star!!!
>>>>
>>>> Patty and I both thank you!
>>>>
>>>> Love, J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
>>>> To:
>>>> Sent: Fri, March 25, 2011 10:37:47 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> (Groan, writing this again â¬" my internet went down when I was halfway through
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sending last time.)
>>>>
>>>> First, thanks a lot for the link. It looks like a very useful book.
>>>>
>>>> So far as I can see, Richard had one herald and one pursuivant as Duke of
>>>> Gloucester. Probably the going rate for his status, as the Duke of Exeter had
>>
>>
>>>> had the same.
>>>>
>>>> Richard's herald was Gloucester, and his pursuivant was Blanc Sanglier. When he
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> became King he promoted Gloucester to a King at Arms with responsibility for
>
>
>>>> Wales, and Blanc Sanglier to a pursuivant. According to the 1484 patent
>>>> incorporating the heralds, the name of Gloucester King of Arms was William
>>>> Champney.
>>>> I don't know the source for Blanc Sanglier having been surnamed More, but Peter
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hammond, who co-edited Harley 433, has a particular interest in heraldry so it
>>>
>>>
>>>> is very probably correct.
>>>>
>>>> The other puzzle is the other way about â¬" ie a herald with a name but no job
>>>
>>>
>>>> title. This is the "Richard Watkyns herald at arms" who was attainted by Henry
>>>
>>>
>>>> VII after Bosworth.
>>>> I've looked at the will of John More, Norroy King of Arms, and it doesnn't
>>>> mention any children. He left all his money to his wife. However, the lands


>>>> would go to the heir by default, and also it was usual for people to enfeoff
>
>
>>>> their lands to the use of themselves and their heirs to avoid the equivalent of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> death duties, forfeiture through attainder, etc (the feoffees being the legal
>>
>>
>>>> owners). All this meant that the son and heir very often got no mention in the
>>>
>>>
>>>> will. John More died in 1491, and a writ of diem clausit extremum was issued to
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the escheator of Northamptonshire in 1493. That means that, assuming the
>>>>records
>>>>
>>>> of the inquisition post mortem survive, the details of the heir should be in
>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>> published IPMs for Henry VII's reign.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By the by, I'd also vouch for Scofield's accuracy. Some of her general
>>>> statements are of course outdated, but she trawled through an awful lot of
>>>> original documents, including seemingly reams of government records, and was
>
>
>>>> careful in her notetaking, so on questions of government employees, payments,
>>
>>
>>>> etc, she is very good.
>>>>
>>>> Marie
>>>>
>>>> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@>


>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In , Judy Thomson
>>>>> <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My mail to the Forum was briefly going into a singularity,
>>>>>> so I'll repost these queries:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Does anyone know the name of Blanc Sanglier Herald at Bosworth?
>>>>>> 2) Does anyone know what happened to him, post anecdotal delivery of
>>>>> Richard's
>>>>>
>>>>>> body at the Greyfriars?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many thanks, in advance!
>>>>>> Judy
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol responds:
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a bit about him in "The History of the College of Arms." It's rather
>>
>>
>>>>> dated and hard to read because of the format, but it suggests that he was a
>
>
>>>>> pursuivant and that he was with Richard before Richard became king. There's a
>>>
>>>
>>>>> lot of interesting information on Richard's heralds in general, and some are
>>
>>
>>>>> named, but evidently only a few kept their offices once Henry became king (and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> kicked the heralds out of the college that Richard had set up for them), so
>
>
>>>>> record-keeping for his reign is spotty.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the link to Google's expurgated version:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_dsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=college+of+arms&hl=en&ei=vOaLTYmwJ4f4sAPj9rSJCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFcQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false
>>>>>
>>>>>e
>>>>> e
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have access to a university library or interlibrary loan, maybe you can
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> find the actual book.
>>>>>
>>>>> Carol, hoping that the link works
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:

>
>
> Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie up two loose ends).
>


Why was the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted, do you know?

Katy

--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Not the firmest identification, perhaps. Maybe I'm biased because I'd like to think Blanc Sanglier could have been the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted after Bosworth (not that I want him attainted, you understand, but it would tie up two loose ends).
> >
>
>
> Why was the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted, do you know?
>
> Katy
>

All the men attainted in the 1485 parliament were accused of the same crime - ie:-
"the 21st day of August, the first year of the reign of our sovereign lord, assembled to them at Leicester in the county of Leicester a great host, traiterously intending, imagining and conspiring the destruction of the King's royal person our sovereign liege lord [that's Henry, by the way]. And they, with the same host, with banners spread, mightily armed and defensed with all manner armours as guns, bows, arrows, spears, glaives, axes and all other manner artilleries apt or needful to give and advance mighty battle against our said sovereign lord, kept together from the said 21 day to the 22 day of the said month then next following, and them conduced to a field within the said shire of Leicester, there by great and continued deliberation traiterously levied war against our said sovereign lord and his true subjects there being in his service and assistance under a banner of our said sovereign lord, to the subversion of this realm and common weal of the same." (And, yes, I cut & pasted that.)

So, whoever he was, we know he was at Bosworth, and he was the only herald there singled out for attainder.

Marie

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>).
> > >
> >
> >
> > Why was the herald named Richard Watkyns attainted, do you know?
> >
> > Katy
> >
>
> All the men attainted in the 1485 parliament were accused of the same crime - ie:-
> "the 21st day of August, the first year of the reign of our sovereign lord, assembled to them at Leicester in the county of Leicester a great host, traiterously intending, imagining and conspiring the destruction of the King's royal person our sovereign liege lord [that's Henry, by the way]. And they, with the same host, with banners spread, mightily armed and defensed with all manner armours as guns, bows, arrows, spears, glaives, axes and all other manner artilleries apt or needful to give and advance mighty battle against our said sovereign lord, kept together from the said 21 day to the 22 day of the said month then next following, and them conduced to a field within the said shire of Leicester, there by great and continued deliberation traiterously levied war against our said sovereign lord and his true subjects there being in his service and assistance under a banner of our said sovereign lord, to the subversion of this realm and common weal of the same." (And, yes, I cut & pasted that.)
>
> So, whoever he was, we know he was at Bosworth, and he was the only herald there singled out for attainder.
>
> Marie
>


Ah, yes -- Henry Tudor's famous backdating of the start of his reign to the day before Bosworth, so everyone who fought for their true king, Richard, became a traitor. That set the tone for the rest of the Tudor dynasty, didn't it?

Katy

On 10 Apr 2011, at 16:45, oregon_katy wrote:

>
> Ah, yes -- Henry Tudor's famous backdating of the start of his reign to the day before Bosworth, so everyone who fought for their true king, Richard, became a traitor. That set the tone for the rest of the Tudor dynasty, didn't it?
>
> Katy
>

Yes. And people wonder why I hate the Tudors so much!!!
Paul


> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

  I'm confused--I thought he tried that, but that the parliament said it was not lawful for Henry to say that those fighting for Richard were acting treasonously.  Is the attainder their compromise over executing the men, or is my memory all faulty?  (It would not be the first time I remembered things wrong. :( )
Sheffe

--- On Mon, 4/11/11, Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:

From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Query: Blanc Sang Herald
To:
Date: Monday, April 11, 2011, 4:01 AM







 











On 10 Apr 2011, at 16:45, oregon_katy wrote:



>

> Ah, yes -- Henry Tudor's famous backdating of the start of his reign to the day before Bosworth, so everyone who fought for their true king, Richard, became a traitor. That set the tone for the rest of the Tudor dynasty, didn't it?

>

> Katy

>



Yes. And people wonder why I hate the Tudors so much!!!

Paul

I hate them too Paul. I can remember being horrified when I read about Henry dating his reign from 21/8/1485 in Ralph Griffiths'"The Making of a Tudor Dynasty". He explains it away with words to the effect Henry considered himself to be the King so he dated his reign to the day before Bosworth. Convenient or what?

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 10 Apr 2011, at 16:45, oregon_katy wrote:
>
> >
> > Ah, yes -- Henry Tudor's famous backdating of the start of his reign to the day before Bosworth, so everyone who fought for their true king, Richard, became a traitor. That set the tone for the rest of the Tudor dynasty, didn't it?
> >
> > Katy
> >
>
> Yes. And people wonder why I hate the Tudors so much!!!
> Paul
>
>
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>