Annette Carson

Hi Dorothea - Yes, your help would be invaluable, especially as the history is printed in Gothic script, which makes reading much more difficult. I have tracked the story of the marriage to around page 420, but could find no date given in the text. Nor could I see any source mentioned other than those we're all familiar with. It seems to be in the Appendix that Pauli discusses his sources, so I'll see what I can manage to understand from that over the weekend. By the way, although the folds in the table at the end make it rather difficult to make out, I did spot at least one error in date, being that of Queen Anne Neville's death.
Let's talk further .....
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Dorothea Preis
To:
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: St Martin Le Grand

If you need help with the German, let me know.

Cheers, Dorothea

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
To:
Sent: Fri, 29 April, 2011 2:39:30 AM
Subject: Re: St Martin Le Grand

Thanks, Susan - well done! This is presumably Reinhold Pauli, in his
continuation to J M Lappenberg's History of England from 1154 to 1509, as I
can't find a work by Pauli on his own dealing with this period/published in
Gotha. Apparently he saw diplomatic service in England which is when he took the
opportunity to research English history. According to Encyclopaedia Brittanica
he also seems to have 'edited several of the English chroniclers for the
Monumenta Germaniae Historica' ... perhaps it was from one of these chroniclers
that he came across the date? Fortunately the MGH is a work still in progress -
see Wikipedia, which says it is available online. Hopefully my German is not too
rusty, so I'm going to see whether I can find out anything more.

----- Original Message -----
From: Susan
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: St Martin Le Grand

The Complete Peerage doesn't cite a source for the July 12, 1472, date, although
it generally does cite sources for its information. According to this snippet
from The Glamorgan County History, vol. III, which was as far as Google Books
would let me look, this is the source for the date:

"The genealogical table printed as an end paper to R. Pauli, Geschichte von
England, V (Gotha, 1858) gives July 12, 1472, as the date of Richard, duke of
Gloucester's marriage, but cites no reference for this statement . . ."

The Complete Peerage doesn't specify where the marriage took place, either in
the entry for Richard, Duke of Gloucester or in that for Richard Neville, Earl
of Warwick, both of which give the July 12 date.

The Duke of Clarence married Isabel Neville on July 11, 1469, so I wonder if
that had something to do with the July 12, 1471, date given for Richard.

Susan Higginbotham

--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...>
wrote:
>
> Well done, Cecilia, finding that reference in Ross - I think you've put your
>finger on the source, i.e. the Complete Peerage, widely considered a reliable
>authority. IIRC, the entries in CP seldom cite their sources, so that's probably
>a dead end. I've taken a look at the York website, and my guess is the item
>about the marriage is there because they wanted to make St Martin Le Grand part
>of the walking trail, so they reverse-engineered the link with the church of the
>same name in London which draws in the dramatic story of Richard's discovering
>Anne and placing her in sanctuary.
>
> If anyone has access to a copy of CP it'd be worth checking, as I am curious to
>know where they got the idea that the marriage was celebrated at Westminster. If
>their source had been Hearne's Fragment, then the date given would surely have
>been 1474, not 1472. I've never heard of the 'Handbook of British Chronology',
>but in Ross's bibliography it's given as 'ed. F M Powicke & E.B. Fryde (2nd edn,
>1961)' so maybe that might help us with a source for the July 1472 date. Let's
>all add these to our lists to check when we next get to a reference library!
>
> The 'Fragment', by the way, seems to be generally reliable as to events but
>sometimes gets details wrong or leaves blanks where we should prefer to see
>names. The writer (identity unknown) served Edward IV and claims to have been
>'personally present' with the king for many years, most especially between 1468
>and 1482, and declares that he is recounting things he heard from Edward's own
>mouth. He seems to have had some intimacy with the Howard family, and at one
>point he calls as his witness Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk and Treasurer of
>England, i.e. the son of Richard III's John Howard. Thomas Howard was Treasurer
>from 1500 to 1522, so I think the chronicle was probably written down in the
>first quarter of the 16th century. It may well have been quite lengthy as
>originally written, but the fragment found by Hearne breaks off in 1470. Its
>pro-York tone probably ensured that it wasn't taken up by the usual publishers
>like Grafton, and hence failed to survive. I'd really like to know more about
>it.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cecilia Latella
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 8:29 PM
> Subject: Re: St Martin Le Grand
>
>
> No, the site (http://www.visityork.org/media/factsheets/richard-III-trail.aspx)
>supports sanctuary and wedding in London. That's what they write:
>
> "Richard found her and ensconced her in Sanctuary in St Martin's church in
>London. He married her in Westminster 12th July 1472 and eventually brought her
>north to York and Middleham, where their son Edward was born in 1473."
>
> What puzzled me is why they did put this information under the caption "St
>Martin Le Grand church" in York, which is a church close to the Guildhall in
>Coney Street, along the river Ouse. As far as I know, there's no connection
>between Richard III and the St Martin Le Grand church in York, therefore I found
>the visityork.org page misleading.
>
> About the date, the 12 July is mentioned also by Charles Ross, only to be
>disproven. In Richard III, p. 29, note 22, he writes:
> "The statement that they were married on 12 July 1472 (CP, VI, 741; Handbook of
>British Chronology, 38) rests on no contemporary authority"
>
> [CP = The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland etc, ed. G.E. Cokayne 1910-59]
>
> Still I don't know where the date comes from. It may be just a repetition of
>1472 (12-7).
>
> Cecilia
>
>
> --- Mer 27/4/11, Annette Carson <email@...> ha scritto:
>
> Da: Annette Carson <email@...>
> Oggetto: Re: St Martin Le Grand
> A:
> Data: MercoledÃ¬ 27 Aprile 2011, 18:24
>
> Hi Paul - in fact I got a different impression from Cecilia's post; I didn't
> think it was suggested that they actually married in York. But I suspect
> I've deleted it now, so Cecilia will have to enlighten us. I have to confess
> that I have no idea where they married!!! However, I do recall an
> illustration of St Stephen's Chapel in the Hammond and Sutton "Road to
> Bosworth Field", with a caption saying they probably married there. I've
> just had a look (pp.58-9) and they quote Hearne's Fragment (p.304) saying
> they were married at Westminster in the year 1474, and there's an article by
> Peter Hammond in The Ricardian of September 1999 giving reasons why he
> believed at that time that the marriage took place probably in early 1474
> (it had to be before a patent which was issued on 6 June 1474). He also
> believed that Edward of Middleham was born in 1476, and was pleased to see
> that Gordon Smith had found evidence supporting this date in the Tewkesbury
> Chronicle.
>
> There were several new opinions about the marriage after the dispensation
> came to light (in 2005, not 2007, sorry), and Peter Hammond wrote an article
> in the Bulletin of Winter 2005, in which he still thought they 'probably'
> did not marry until the dispute over the Neville estates was finally settled
> in 1474. I'll have to find the other references, but I know one of them was
> by Marie Barnfield who favoured late May or June 1472, and if Marie is
> following this thread she may like to make a comment here.
> Regards, Annette
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Trevor Bale" paul.bale@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 4:31 PM
> Subject: Re: St Martin Le Grand
>
> My understanding is that Richard and Anne were married in the chapel of St
> Peter Ad Vincula in the White Tower at the Tower of London. Of course, as
> Anne was in sanctuary at St Martins Le Grand in the city of London, they may
> have married in the church there. Either way it seems ridiculous to me that
> they would travel all the way to York before getting married, especially as
> the King, who gave his permission for the wedding, was in London, as was the
> Duchess of York.
> Annette will know if I am correct, and will probably know without having to
> look it up where I got this from!!!
> Paul
>
> On 27 Apr 2011, at 14:47, Cecilia Latella wrote:
>
> > Dear Annette,
> >
> > with a little delay, I finally wrote to the site asking them about
> > Richard's connection with the St Martin Le Grand in York and the wedding's
> > date. I'm now waiting for their reply, and I will let you know if there
> > will be any.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > Cecilia
> >
> > --- Gio 21/4/11, Annette Carson <email@...> ha scritto:
> >
> >
> > Da: Annette Carson <email@...>
> > Oggetto: Re: St Martin Le Grand
> > A:
> > Data: GiovedÃ¬ 21 Aprile 2011, 10:13
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Cecilia, your question was very interesting, and Paul is almost certainly
> > right in identifying St Martin-le-Grand which was the nearest St Martin's
> > sanctuary attached to where Anne was found. However, we really don't know
> > much about this episode, and on the topic of Richard and Anne's marriage,
> > I was waiting for one of our sharp-eyes members to spot the date of 12
> > July 1472 - very interesting! I don't have time myself, but would you be
> > able to enquire how the authors of the webpage arrived at that date?
> >
> > There's been controversy over this for some time, and estimated dates have
> > varied from 1472 to 1474. However, since 2007, when their papal
> > dispensation for affinity was discovered, dated 22 April 1472, it's been
> > more logical to assume that they married soon after receiving it. So July
> > 1472 is a good possibility. But where did that exact date of the 12th
> > spring from? Being ever optimistic that lost sources may still exist, who
> > knows ...... ? It's worth asking!
> > Regards, Annette
> >
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