Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: evidence that Richard opposed t

I know that The Sunne in Splendour was fiction (that is what you're talking
about when you say Penman, right? I'm currently reading that book now lol),
but the story about Anne being hidden as a maid in someone's house until
Richard found her sounds awfully familiar like I heard it in other places

-Victoria
"Crying is the refuge of plain women, but the ruin of pretty ones."-Oscar
Wilde

I would like to find where Penman got her version of the story. I
suppose it's possible it's her take on it.

I'd like to find original sources on the "kidnapping" tale. I keep
coming across reports that Richard "kidnapped" Anne - and that
Clarence had hidden her as a maid in someone's kitchen, possibly the
tavern of Penman's tale. I've not seen Penman's version anywhere
else. I'd like to know more about it.

Ross thinks that if RIchard kidnapped her she probably went
willingly, since (we're talking Ross's reasoning here), being a
medieval aristocrat, she was necessarily quite as evil as he was -
and also, Ross doesn't think the facts quite fit a forceful
abduction. But I haven't yet come across waht the "facts" were.

The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was one
of his central motifs, like the boar of York, and it appears to be a
crucial part of how he saw himself. For instance, in one fo the
letters to the city of York about his post-coronation progress, he
explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had made him
to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility. I think I've seen
it turn up in other places, as well.

Dora






--- In , hockeygirl1016@a...
wrote:
> I know that The Sunne in Splendour was fiction (that is what you're
talking
> about when you say Penman, right? I'm currently reading that book
now lol),
> but the story about Anne being hidden as a maid in someone's house
until
> Richard found her sounds awfully familiar like I heard it in other
places
>
> -Victoria
> "Crying is the refuge of plain women, but the ruin of pretty ones."-
Oscar
> Wilde
>
>
>

Dora
The original comes from Crowland Second Continuation:
"Such was the astuteness of the Duke of Gloucester, however, that after
discovering the girl dressed as a kitchen maid in London, he removed her to
the sanctuary of St Martin's. As a result much dissension arose between the
brothers and so many acute arguements were put forward on either side in hte
presence of the King, sitting in judgement in the council chamber, that all
present, ever lawyers, marvelled at the profusion of arguements marshalled
by the princes for their respective cases."

Whether or not the Lady Anne was actually put to work in a kitchen is
another matter probably more likely is that to avoid anyone finding her
George and Isabel had simply dressed her in a way so as not to attract
attention and hidden her in one of the couple's London properties.

The dispute between the two brothers continued throughout much of 1471 and
1472...all the while poor Anne Beauchamp Countess of Warwick protested in
vain

tim

----- Original Message -----
From: <tiggernut24@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: evidence that Richard opposed the
executi...


> I would like to find where Penman got her version of the story. I
> suppose it's possible it's her take on it.
>
> I'd like to find original sources on the "kidnapping" tale. I keep
> coming across reports that Richard "kidnapped" Anne - and that
> Clarence had hidden her as a maid in someone's kitchen, possibly the
> tavern of Penman's tale. I've not seen Penman's version anywhere
> else. I'd like to know more about it.
>
> Ross thinks that if RIchard kidnapped her she probably went
> willingly, since (we're talking Ross's reasoning here), being a
> medieval aristocrat, she was necessarily quite as evil as he was -
> and also, Ross doesn't think the facts quite fit a forceful
> abduction. But I haven't yet come across waht the "facts" were.
>
> The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was one
> of his central motifs, like the boar of York, and it appears to be a
> crucial part of how he saw himself. For instance, in one fo the
> letters to the city of York about his post-coronation progress, he
> explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had made him
> to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility. I think I've seen
> it turn up in other places, as well.
>
> Dora
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , hockeygirl1016@a...
> wrote:
> > I know that The Sunne in Splendour was fiction (that is what you're
> talking
> > about when you say Penman, right? I'm currently reading that book
> now lol),
> > but the story about Anne being hidden as a maid in someone's house
> until
> > Richard found her sounds awfully familiar like I heard it in other
> places
> >
> > -Victoria
> > "Crying is the refuge of plain women, but the ruin of pretty ones."-
> Oscar
> > Wilde
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

According to Dora:
"The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was
one
of his central motifs, like the boar of York, and it appears to be a
crucial part of how he saw himself. For instance, in one fo the
letters to the city of York about his post-coronation progress, he
explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had made him
to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility. I think I've seen
it turn up in other places, as well."

The Sunne in Splendor was a cognizance of the Yorks by virtue of
Edward IV's experience at the Battle of Mortimer - seeing a
parahelion in the sky (three suns at once). He took that as a sign
that his cause was favored (by God and everyine else except the
Lancastrians, I guess! :-) ) I would think Richard simply carried
on this Yorkist emblem and added it to his own of the white boar.

Janet

--- In , "Dora Smith
<tiggernut24@y...>" <tiggernut24@y...> wrote:
> I would like to find where Penman got her version of the story. I
> suppose it's possible it's her take on it.
>
> I'd like to find original sources on the "kidnapping" tale. I
keep
> coming across reports that Richard "kidnapped" Anne - and that
> Clarence had hidden her as a maid in someone's kitchen, possibly
the
> tavern of Penman's tale. I've not seen Penman's version anywhere
> else. I'd like to know more about it.
>
> Ross thinks that if RIchard kidnapped her she probably went
> willingly, since (we're talking Ross's reasoning here), being a
> medieval aristocrat, she was necessarily quite as evil as he was -
> and also, Ross doesn't think the facts quite fit a forceful
> abduction. But I haven't yet come across waht the "facts" were.
>
> The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was
one
> of his central motifs, like the boar of York, and it appears to be
a
> crucial part of how he saw himself. For instance, in one fo the
> letters to the city of York about his post-coronation progress, he
> explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had made
him
> to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility. I think I've
seen
> it turn up in other places, as well.
>
> Dora
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , hockeygirl1016@a...
> wrote:
> > I know that The Sunne in Splendour was fiction (that is what
you're
> talking
> > about when you say Penman, right? I'm currently reading that
book
> now lol),
> > but the story about Anne being hidden as a maid in someone's
house
> until
> > Richard found her sounds awfully familiar like I heard it in
other
> places
> >
> > -Victoria
> > "Crying is the refuge of plain women, but the ruin of pretty
ones."-
> Oscar
> > Wilde
> >
> >
> >

Yes that excerpt is what I remembered! I think I read it in The Princes in
the Tower (I know I know, I'll read other books when I find some!)

-Victoria
"Crying is the refuge of plain women, but the ruin of pretty ones."-Oscar
Wilde

I read some years ago a legend about an English noble woman who was
hidden away - or hid herself away - as a kitchen maid in order to
avoid marriage to a particular person - sorry, my memory is not good
on this - and this took place in Gloucestershire. I will have to
hunt through my old files - but when I read it I thought that this
might have been a source of the Anne Neville as kitchen maid story -
there were interesting parallels. Unless this was a common medieval
practice it seems strange that two such stories should survive. The
story itself seems like something a bad romance novelist would dream
up - yet there it is in the Croyland Chronicle. Could the Croyland
Chronicler(s) really be Danielle Steel in disguise? (apologies to all
D. Steel enthusiasts, it was the only name I could think of)

--- In , "tim" <tmc_dale@y...>
wrote:
> Dora
> The original comes from Crowland Second Continuation:
> "Such was the astuteness of the Duke of Gloucester, however, that
after
> discovering the girl dressed as a kitchen maid in London, he
removed her to
> the sanctuary of St Martin's. As a result much dissension arose
between the
> brothers and so many acute arguements were put forward on either
side in hte
> presence of the King, sitting in judgement in the council chamber,
that all
> present, ever lawyers, marvelled at the profusion of arguements
marshalled
> by the princes for their respective cases."
>
> Whether or not the Lady Anne was actually put to work in a kitchen
is
> another matter probably more likely is that to avoid anyone finding
her
> George and Isabel had simply dressed her in a way so as not to
attract
> attention and hidden her in one of the couple's London properties.
>
> The dispute between the two brothers continued throughout much of
1471 and
> 1472...all the while poor Anne Beauchamp Countess of Warwick
protested in
> vain
>
> tim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <tiggernut24@y...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:48 PM
> Subject: Re: evidence that Richard
opposed the
> executi...
>
>
> > I would like to find where Penman got her version of the story. I
> > suppose it's possible it's her take on it.
> >
> > I'd like to find original sources on the "kidnapping" tale. I
keep
> > coming across reports that Richard "kidnapped" Anne - and that
> > Clarence had hidden her as a maid in someone's kitchen, possibly
the
> > tavern of Penman's tale. I've not seen Penman's version anywhere
> > else. I'd like to know more about it.
> >
> > Ross thinks that if RIchard kidnapped her she probably went
> > willingly, since (we're talking Ross's reasoning here), being a
> > medieval aristocrat, she was necessarily quite as evil as he was -
> > and also, Ross doesn't think the facts quite fit a forceful
> > abduction. But I haven't yet come across waht the "facts" were.
> >
> > The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was
one
> > of his central motifs, like the boar of York, and it appears to
be a
> > crucial part of how he saw himself. For instance, in one fo the
> > letters to the city of York about his post-coronation progress, he
> > explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had made
him
> > to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility. I think I've
seen
> > it turn up in other places, as well.
> >
> > Dora
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , hockeygirl1016@a...
> > wrote:
> > > I know that The Sunne in Splendour was fiction (that is what
you're
> > talking
> > > about when you say Penman, right? I'm currently reading that
book
> > now lol),
> > > but the story about Anne being hidden as a maid in someone's
house
> > until
> > > Richard found her sounds awfully familiar like I heard it in
other
> > places
> > >
> > > -Victoria
> > > "Crying is the refuge of plain women, but the ruin of pretty
ones."-
> > Oscar
> > > Wilde
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >

Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...>07/01/2003 15:48tiggernut24@...

> I would like to find where Penman got her version of the story. I
> suppose it's possible it's her take on it.
I think it is as I've never read it anywhere else, and as I've said, when
the original tale is so good I don't know why she changed it.
> I'd like to find original sources on the "kidnapping" tale. I keep
> coming across reports that Richard "kidnapped" Anne - and that
> Clarence had hidden her as a maid in someone's kitchen, possibly the
> tavern of Penman's tale. I've not seen Penman's version anywhere
> else. I'd like to know more about it.
I think it's in the Great Chronicle of London, but is indeed mentioned in
more than one original source. It is certainly in Crowland. Like the eclipse
of the sun on the day Anne died, you can't make up stories that good!
> Ross thinks that if RIchard kidnapped her she probably went
> willingly, since (we're talking Ross's reasoning here), being a
> medieval aristocrat, she was necessarily quite as evil as he was -
> and also, Ross doesn't think the facts quite fit a forceful
> abduction. But I haven't yet come across waht the "facts" were.
Richard's first act when he found her was to send her to sanctuary at St
Martin-le-Grand, so I don't know what Ross was going on about. Again
changing the facts, or suggesting alternative meanings, to make Richard look
bad. Ross didn't like Richard at all.
> The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was one
> of his central motifs, like the boar of York, and it appears to be a
> crucial part of how he saw himself.
Aren't you confusing Richard with Edward? The Yorkist Sunne was indeed one
of Richard's motifs,as the head of the House when he became king, but his
chief one was always the White Boar.
Paul

Legend, huh?

You would think that occasionally a gutsy young noble woman flat out
ran away...

Very interesting.

Dora

--- In , "Kim <kim@d...>"
<kim@d...> wrote:
> I read some years ago a legend about an English noble woman who was
> hidden away - or hid herself away - as a kitchen maid in order to
> avoid marriage to a particular person - sorry, my memory is not
good
> on this - and this took place in Gloucestershire. I will have to
> hunt through my old files - but when I read it I thought that this
> might have been a source of the Anne Neville as kitchen maid story -

> there were interesting parallels. Unless this was a common
medieval
> practice it seems strange that two such stories should survive. The
> story itself seems like something a bad romance novelist would
dream
> up - yet there it is in the Croyland Chronicle. Could the Croyland
> Chronicler(s) really be Danielle Steel in disguise? (apologies to
all
> D. Steel enthusiasts, it was the only name I could think of)
>
> --- In , "tim"
<tmc_dale@y...>
> wrote:
> > Dora
> > The original comes from Crowland Second Continuation:
> > "Such was the astuteness of the Duke of Gloucester, however,
that
> after
> > discovering the girl dressed as a kitchen maid in London, he
> removed her to
> > the sanctuary of St Martin's. As a result much dissension arose
> between the
> > brothers and so many acute arguements were put forward on either
> side in hte
> > presence of the King, sitting in judgement in the council
chamber,
> that all
> > present, ever lawyers, marvelled at the profusion of arguements
> marshalled
> > by the princes for their respective cases."
> >
> > Whether or not the Lady Anne was actually put to work in a
kitchen
> is
> > another matter probably more likely is that to avoid anyone
finding
> her
> > George and Isabel had simply dressed her in a way so as not to
> attract
> > attention and hidden her in one of the couple's London properties.
> >
> > The dispute between the two brothers continued throughout much of
> 1471 and
> > 1472...all the while poor Anne Beauchamp Countess of Warwick
> protested in
> > vain
> >
> > tim
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <tiggernut24@y...>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 2:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: evidence that Richard
> opposed the
> > executi...
> >
> >
> > > I would like to find where Penman got her version of the
story. I
> > > suppose it's possible it's her take on it.
> > >
> > > I'd like to find original sources on the "kidnapping" tale. I
> keep
> > > coming across reports that Richard "kidnapped" Anne - and that
> > > Clarence had hidden her as a maid in someone's kitchen,
possibly
> the
> > > tavern of Penman's tale. I've not seen Penman's version
anywhere
> > > else. I'd like to know more about it.
> > >
> > > Ross thinks that if RIchard kidnapped her she probably went
> > > willingly, since (we're talking Ross's reasoning here), being a
> > > medieval aristocrat, she was necessarily quite as evil as he
was -
> > > and also, Ross doesn't think the facts quite fit a forceful
> > > abduction. But I haven't yet come across waht the "facts" were.
> > >
> > > The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was
> one
> > > of his central motifs, like the boar of York, and it appears to
> be a
> > > crucial part of how he saw himself. For instance, in one fo the
> > > letters to the city of York about his post-coronation progress,
he
> > > explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had
made
> him
> > > to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility. I think
I've
> seen
> > > it turn up in other places, as well.
> > >
> > > Dora
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In ,
hockeygirl1016@a...
> > > wrote:
> > > > I know that The Sunne in Splendour was fiction (that is what
> you're
> > > talking
> > > > about when you say Penman, right? I'm currently reading that
> book
> > > now lol),
> > > > but the story about Anne being hidden as a maid in someone's
> house
> > > until
> > > > Richard found her sounds awfully familiar like I heard it in
> other
> > > places
> > > >
> > > > -Victoria
> > > > "Crying is the refuge of plain women, but the ruin of pretty
> ones."-
> > > Oscar
> > > > Wilde
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >