Niece married to Uncle?

Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford  (p. 11 in Richard III:  Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)

"...  Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."

Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?

The author makes this statement without any further comment.  There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated.  This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.

Many thanks,

Marion

The sister of Edward Nevill must have been a Nevill. So it sounds as
the Duchess was the wife of the Duke of Norfolk.

If so, "aunt" = uncle's wife --- no blood relationship.

Peggy

On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 6:52 PM, marion davis <phaecilia@...> wrote:

> Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private
> Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty,
> Lordship, and Law?)
>
> "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of
> her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
>
> Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
>
> The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no
> criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry
> his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles
> might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Marion
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Is this Neville, Edward, first Baron Bergavenny (d. 1476)? If so, this is what the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says:

Shortly after the death of his first wife, Elizabeth, Neville married his kinswoman (and mistress) Katherine (d. c.1478), daughter of Sir Robert Howard, and sister of John, Lord Howard (d. 1485), created duke of Norfolk by Richard III in 1483. The papal dispensation needed for this union was granted by Pope Nicholas V on 15 October 1448. From his second marriage Neville had two sons who died childless, and three daughters.

--- In , marion davis <phaecilia@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford  (p. 11 in Richard III:  Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
>
> "...  Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
>
> Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
>
> The author makes this statement without any further comment.  There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated.  This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Marion
>
>
>

this is the info i have in my notes, for edward neville m. c/katherine howard..his 3rd cousin.
 
Name: Edward 3rd Baron Neville , KG, of Bergavenny, Sir
Sex: M
Birth: ABT 1413 in Raby Castle, Raby with Keverstone, Staindrop, Durham, England
Death: 18 OCT 1476 in Abergavenny, Monmouthshire, Wales
Edward Nevill(e), 1st Lord (Baron) Bergavenny or Neville de Bergavenny, so created by writ of summons 5 Sep 1450; granted license by Henry VI to take possession of the lands of Abergavenny but in possession of the castle at Abergavenny for only a short while; married 1st by 18 Oct 1424 Elizabeth Beauchamp, according to later doctrine Baroness Bergavenny or Beauchamp de Bergavenny in her own right, and had issue. The 1st Lord (Baron) Bergavenny married 2nd 15 Oct 1448 his 3rd cousin Catherine, daughter of Sir Robert Howard and sister of 1st Duke of Norfolk, and died 18 Oct 1476, having had further issue. [Burke's Peerage]
--------------------
Sir Edward de Neville, KG, d. 18 Oct 1476, Lord Burgavenny; m. (1) bef. 18 Oct 1424 Elizabeth Beauchamp, b. 16 Sep 1415, d. 18 Jun 1448, only daughter of Richard de Beauchamp, KB, Lord Bergavenny, b. by 1397, being 14+ in June 1411, dsp in France 18 Mar 1421/2 (son of William Beauchamp, KG, Lord Bergavenny, and Joan Fitz Alan), and Isabel le Despenser, m. 27 July 1411, (daughter of Thomas le Despenser and Constance, daughter of Edmund, Duke of York). [Magna Charta Sureties]
 
-----------
BARONY of ABERGAVENNY (III) 1450 (prior to this held in right of wife, Elizabeth Beauchamp)
Sir Edward Nevill, a year after the death of his 1st wife, Eliabeth Beauchamp, obtained on 14 Jul 1449, licence from Henry IV to enter on the lands, etc. of Abergavenny, and, from 5 Sep 1450 to 19 Aug 1472 was summoned to Parliament as a Baron (Lord Bergavenny), by writs directed "Edwardo Nevill domino de Bergevenny militi", and on and after 30 Jul 1459, though he does not appear to have been seized, except for a short time, of the Castle and lands of that name.
He m. 2ndly, by special dispensation 15 Oct 1448, Katharine, daughter of Sir Robert Howard, by Margaret, daughter of Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk; she, with whom he had cohabited in the lifetime of his 1st wife, was related to him in the third degree. He d. 18 Oct 1476. His widow was living 29 Jun 1478. [Complete Peerage]
 
and..edward's sister was cecily neville mother of r3.

--- On Mon, 9/26/11, Susan <shigginbotham2@...> wrote:


From: Susan <shigginbotham2@...>
Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
To:
Received: Monday, September 26, 2011, 7:25 PM


 



Is this Neville, Edward, first Baron Bergavenny (d. 1476)? If so, this is what the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says:

Shortly after the death of his first wife, Elizabeth, Neville married his kinswoman (and mistress) Katherine (d. c.1478), daughter of Sir Robert Howard, and sister of John, Lord Howard (d. 1485), created duke of Norfolk by Richard III in 1483. The papal dispensation needed for this union was granted by Pope Nicholas V on 15 October 1448. From his second marriage Neville had two sons who died childless, and three daughters.

--- In , marion davis <phaecilia@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford  (p. 11 in Richard III:  Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
>
> "...  Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
>
> Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
>
> The author makes this statement without any further comment.  There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated.  This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Marion
>
>
>

Hi Marion
According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: marion davis
To:
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
Subject: Niece married to Uncle?



Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)

"... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."

Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?

The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.

Many thanks,

Marion

Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!

----- Original Message -----
From: Annette Carson
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?



Hi Marion
According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: marion davis
To:
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
Subject: Niece married to Uncle?

Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)

"... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."

Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?

The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.

Many thanks,

Marion

Thanks Annette,

And thanks again to everyone who answered my question.

If Anne Crawford had written "brother of her aunt-by-marriage,Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk," I wouldn't have asked.

As written, I found it confusing. But their relationship doesn't seem that similar to Richard's and his niece's now.

Marion




--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Annette Carson
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
>
>
>
> Hi Marion
> According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
> Regards, Annette
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: marion davis
> To:
> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
> Subject: Niece married to Uncle?
>
> Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
>
> "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
>
> Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
>
> The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Marion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I've just been researching the Bonville family, and in two successive generation there is an example of a man marrying his own step-sister. For example William Bonville, son of Lord Bonville, married Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband, Lord Harrington; i.e. his step-sister.
Since they were not related by blood, this seems to have been acceptable, though probably a dispensation may have been needed.

In the other example, John Bonville of Halnaker married Joan Wybury, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband. A motive can be discerned here; John's father Thomas was hoping to gain the estate of Tamerton in Devon by marriage to his 2nd wife Laura Gorges; but she died without giving him a 2nd son. However he then became the guardian of her daughter and heir Joan from her 1st husband, John Wybury, who he then married to his own son from his previous marriage. This nicely secured for the Bonvilles the manor of Tamerton which would otherwise have been lost to the family.

This sort of thing went on all the time; men would often purchase with cash the wardship of a rich young heiress; and wardship included the right to marry the child to whomsoever he chose, often his own son or even himself.

Another family I've been working on is the Sapcotes of Northamptonshire; but however I rearrange it one John Sapcote always seems to end up marrying his own half-sister; I'm sure this wasn't allowed and I've made a mistake somewhere...


--- In , "phaecilia" <phaecilia@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Annette,
>
> And thanks again to everyone who answered my question.
>
> If Anne Crawford had written "brother of her aunt-by-marriage,Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk," I wouldn't have asked.
>
> As written, I found it confusing. But their relationship doesn't seem that similar to Richard's and his niece's now.
>
> Marion
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> >
> > Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Annette Carson
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Marion
> > According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
> > Regards, Annette
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: marion davis
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
> > Subject: Niece married to Uncle?
> >
> > Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
> >
> > "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
> >
> > Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
> >
> > The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Marion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In , "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> I've just been researching the Bonville family, and in two successive generation there is an example of a man marrying his own step-sister. For example William Bonville, son of Lord Bonville, married Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband, Lord Harrington; i.e. his step-sister.
> Since they were not related by blood, this seems to have been acceptable, though probably a dispensation may have been needed.
>
> In the other example, John Bonville of Halnaker married Joan Wybury, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband. A motive can be discerned here; John's father Thomas was hoping to gain the estate of Tamerton in Devon by marriage to his 2nd wife Laura Gorges; but she died without giving him a 2nd son. However he then became the guardian of her daughter and heir Joan from her 1st husband, John Wybury, who he then married to his own son from his previous marriage. This nicely secured for the Bonvilles the manor of Tamerton which would otherwise have been lost to the family.
>
> This sort of thing went on all the time; men would often purchase with cash the wardship of a rich young heiress; and wardship included the right to marry the child to whomsoever he chose, often his own son or even himself.
>
> Another family I've been working on is the Sapcotes of Northamptonshire; but however I rearrange it one John Sapcote always seems to end up marrying his own half-sister; I'm sure this wasn't allowed and I've made a mistake somewhere...


Hi all,

Back after a long absence, and just missed Richard's birthday UK time by one minute having to re-enter my password!

Anyway, on the subject of allowable marriages, there was in the 15th century no canonical impediment whatsoever to marriages between stepkin, even step brother and sister, which is why as you rightly say such marriages were very popular.

Marrying your half-sister, though, was absolutely out - that is first degree consanguinity, so strictly against the church's law, but is also prohibited by Leviticus, which was regarded as God's own law, so the Pope had no power to grant a dispensation for it. I would be really interested to compare notes on the Sapcotes; I started compiling information on them once but didn't get to identify the birth families of any wives. But I mean to get back to the Sapcotes sometime so your puzzle is really interesting.

Marie



>
>
> --- In , "phaecilia" <phaecilia@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Annette,
> >
> > And thanks again to everyone who answered my question.
> >
> > If Anne Crawford had written "brother of her aunt-by-marriage,Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk," I wouldn't have asked.
> >
> > As written, I found it confusing. But their relationship doesn't seem that similar to Richard's and his niece's now.
> >
> > Marion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Annette Carson
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Marion
> > > According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
> > > Regards, Annette
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: marion davis
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
> > > Subject: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > > Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
> > >
> > > "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
> > >
> > > Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
> > >
> > > The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > >
> > > Marion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Welcome back Marie!  I've missed your posts
Vickie


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?


 


--- In , "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> I've just been researching the Bonville family, and in two successive generation there is an example of a man marrying his own step-sister. For example William Bonville, son of Lord Bonville, married Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband, Lord Harrington; i.e. his step-sister.
> Since they were not related by blood, this seems to have been acceptable, though probably a dispensation may have been needed.
>
> In the other example, John Bonville of Halnaker married Joan Wybury, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband. A motive can be discerned here; John's father Thomas was hoping to gain the estate of Tamerton in Devon by marriage to his 2nd wife Laura Gorges; but she died without giving him a 2nd son. However he then became the guardian of her daughter and heir Joan from her 1st husband, John Wybury, who he then married to his own son from his previous marriage. This nicely secured for the Bonvilles the manor of Tamerton which would otherwise have been lost to the family.
>
> This sort of thing went on all the time; men would often purchase with cash the wardship of a rich young heiress; and wardship included the right to marry the child to whomsoever he chose, often his own son or even himself.
>
> Another family I've been working on is the Sapcotes of Northamptonshire; but however I rearrange it one John Sapcote always seems to end up marrying his own half-sister; I'm sure this wasn't allowed and I've made a mistake somewhere...

Hi all,

Back after a long absence, and just missed Richard's birthday UK time by one minute having to re-enter my password!

Anyway, on the subject of allowable marriages, there was in the 15th century no canonical impediment whatsoever to marriages between stepkin, even step brother and sister, which is why as you rightly say such marriages were very popular.

Marrying your half-sister, though, was absolutely out - that is first degree consanguinity, so strictly against the church's law, but is also prohibited by Leviticus, which was regarded as God's own law, so the Pope had no power to grant a dispensation for it. I would be really interested to compare notes on the Sapcotes; I started compiling information on them once but didn't get to identify the birth families of any wives. But I mean to get back to the Sapcotes sometime so your puzzle is really interesting.

Marie

>
>
> --- In , "phaecilia" <phaecilia@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Annette,
> >
> > And thanks again to everyone who answered my question.
> >
> > If Anne Crawford had written "brother of her aunt-by-marriage,Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk," I wouldn't have asked.
> >
> > As written, I found it confusing. But their relationship doesn't seem that similar to Richard's and his niece's now.
> >
> > Marion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Annette Carson
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Marion
> > > According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
> > > Regards, Annette
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: marion davis
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
> > > Subject: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > > Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
> > >
> > > "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
> > >
> > > Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
> > >
> > > The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > >
> > > Marion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Me too, Marie - that was a long absence!
Annette


----- Original Message -----
From: Vickie Cook
To:
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Niece married to Uncle?



Welcome back Marie! I've missed your posts
Vickie

________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?



--- In , "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> I've just been researching the Bonville family, and in two successive generation there is an example of a man marrying his own step-sister. For example William Bonville, son of Lord Bonville, married Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband, Lord Harrington; i.e. his step-sister.
> Since they were not related by blood, this seems to have been acceptable, though probably a dispensation may have been needed.
>
> In the other example, John Bonville of Halnaker married Joan Wybury, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband. A motive can be discerned here; John's father Thomas was hoping to gain the estate of Tamerton in Devon by marriage to his 2nd wife Laura Gorges; but she died without giving him a 2nd son. However he then became the guardian of her daughter and heir Joan from her 1st husband, John Wybury, who he then married to his own son from his previous marriage. This nicely secured for the Bonvilles the manor of Tamerton which would otherwise have been lost to the family.
>
> This sort of thing went on all the time; men would often purchase with cash the wardship of a rich young heiress; and wardship included the right to marry the child to whomsoever he chose, often his own son or even himself.
>
> Another family I've been working on is the Sapcotes of Northamptonshire; but however I rearrange it one John Sapcote always seems to end up marrying his own half-sister; I'm sure this wasn't allowed and I've made a mistake somewhere...

Hi all,

Back after a long absence, and just missed Richard's birthday UK time by one minute having to re-enter my password!

Anyway, on the subject of allowable marriages, there was in the 15th century no canonical impediment whatsoever to marriages between stepkin, even step brother and sister, which is why as you rightly say such marriages were very popular.

Marrying your half-sister, though, was absolutely out - that is first degree consanguinity, so strictly against the church's law, but is also prohibited by Leviticus, which was regarded as God's own law, so the Pope had no power to grant a dispensation for it. I would be really interested to compare notes on the Sapcotes; I started compiling information on them once but didn't get to identify the birth families of any wives. But I mean to get back to the Sapcotes sometime so your puzzle is really interesting.

Marie

>
>
> --- In , "phaecilia" <phaecilia@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Annette,
> >
> > And thanks again to everyone who answered my question.
> >
> > If Anne Crawford had written "brother of her aunt-by-marriage,Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk," I wouldn't have asked.
> >
> > As written, I found it confusing. But their relationship doesn't seem that similar to Richard's and his niece's now.
> >
> > Marion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Annette Carson
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Marion
> > > According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
> > > Regards, Annette
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: marion davis
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
> > > Subject: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > > Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
> > >
> > > "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
> > >
> > > Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
> > >
> > > The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > >
> > > Marion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

........ and we are both in the Bulletin, Marie.

----- Original Message -----
From: Annette Carson
To:
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Niece married to Uncle?



Me too, Marie - that was a long absence!
Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Vickie Cook
To:
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Niece married to Uncle?

Welcome back Marie! I've missed your posts
Vickie

________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?

--- In , "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> I've just been researching the Bonville family, and in two successive generation there is an example of a man marrying his own step-sister. For example William Bonville, son of Lord Bonville, married Elizabeth Harrington, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband, Lord Harrington; i.e. his step-sister.
> Since they were not related by blood, this seems to have been acceptable, though probably a dispensation may have been needed.
>
> In the other example, John Bonville of Halnaker married Joan Wybury, daughter of his father's 2nd wife by her 1st husband. A motive can be discerned here; John's father Thomas was hoping to gain the estate of Tamerton in Devon by marriage to his 2nd wife Laura Gorges; but she died without giving him a 2nd son. However he then became the guardian of her daughter and heir Joan from her 1st husband, John Wybury, who he then married to his own son from his previous marriage. This nicely secured for the Bonvilles the manor of Tamerton which would otherwise have been lost to the family.
>
> This sort of thing went on all the time; men would often purchase with cash the wardship of a rich young heiress; and wardship included the right to marry the child to whomsoever he chose, often his own son or even himself.
>
> Another family I've been working on is the Sapcotes of Northamptonshire; but however I rearrange it one John Sapcote always seems to end up marrying his own half-sister; I'm sure this wasn't allowed and I've made a mistake somewhere...

Hi all,

Back after a long absence, and just missed Richard's birthday UK time by one minute having to re-enter my password!

Anyway, on the subject of allowable marriages, there was in the 15th century no canonical impediment whatsoever to marriages between stepkin, even step brother and sister, which is why as you rightly say such marriages were very popular.

Marrying your half-sister, though, was absolutely out - that is first degree consanguinity, so strictly against the church's law, but is also prohibited by Leviticus, which was regarded as God's own law, so the Pope had no power to grant a dispensation for it. I would be really interested to compare notes on the Sapcotes; I started compiling information on them once but didn't get to identify the birth families of any wives. But I mean to get back to the Sapcotes sometime so your puzzle is really interesting.

Marie

>
>
> --- In , "phaecilia" <phaecilia@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Annette,
> >
> > And thanks again to everyone who answered my question.
> >
> > If Anne Crawford had written "brother of her aunt-by-marriage,Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk," I wouldn't have asked.
> >
> > As written, I found it confusing. But their relationship doesn't seem that similar to Richard's and his niece's now.
> >
> > Marion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Annette Carson
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Marion
> > > According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
> > > Regards, Annette
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: marion davis
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
> > > Subject: Niece married to Uncle?
> > >
> > > Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
> > >
> > > "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
> > >
> > > Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
> > >
> > > The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
> > >
> > > Many thanks,
> > >
> > > Marion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

My problem concerns Thomas Sapcote (1450-1502)

I have him marrying Joan Francis, a daughter and co-heiress of Sir John Francis of Burley, Rutland.
I have Isabel Plessington as mother of both bride and groom, having married firstly Sir John Francis and secondly Sir Richard Sapcote, supposedly father of Thomas.
Joan was definately daughter of Isabel, since it is through this female line that the manor of Burley descended:

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66217&strquery=sapcote

I can only assume that Thomas was son of Richard by a different wife, but have found no record of another marriage for Richard. This is not helped by many sites confusing Richard d1477? with his own grandson Richard d1543.


Incidentally I've also failed to find the connection between a Richard Sapcote "of March" and Gunthorpe and the Sapcotes of Upton.

Grateful for any help.



--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Back after a long absence, and just missed Richard's birthday UK time by one minute having to re-enter my password!
>
> Anyway, on the subject of allowable marriages, there was in the 15th century no canonical impediment whatsoever to marriages between stepkin, even step brother and sister, which is why as you rightly say such marriages were very popular.
>
> Marrying your half-sister, though, was absolutely out - that is first degree consanguinity, so strictly against the church's law, but is also prohibited by Leviticus, which was regarded as God's own law, so the Pope had no power to grant a dispensation for it. I would be really interested to compare notes on the Sapcotes; I started compiling information on them once but didn't get to identify the birth families of any wives. But I mean to get back to the Sapcotes sometime so your puzzle is really interesting.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > --- In , "phaecilia" <phaecilia@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Annette,
> > >
> > > And thanks again to everyone who answered my question.
> > >
> > > If Anne Crawford had written "brother of her aunt-by-marriage,Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk," I wouldn't have asked.
> > >
> > > As written, I found it confusing. But their relationship doesn't seem that similar to Richard's and his niece's now.
> > >
> > > Marion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Wait a minute, there was actually a link by marriage. Catherine Howard's mother was Margaret Mowbray, sister of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk, so Catherine was the duke's niece. Edward Neville was the brother of his first wife, who became the aged dowager duchess. But that didn't make him her uncle.He was the brother of her aunt-by-marriage. Very confusing!
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Annette Carson
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:25 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Niece married to Uncle?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Marion
> > > > According to my calculation, Catherine Howard, sister of the 1st Howard Duke of Norfolk (subject of Crawford's book) married Edward Neville, brother of Catherine Neville who was widow of the 2nd Mowbray Duke of Norfolk (the lady who lived to a great age, was briefly married to John Woodville, and was said to have remembered dancing with Richard III). I believe it's a case of confusing the two lines of Norfolk dukes.
> > > > Regards, Annette
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: marion davis
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 11:52 PM
> > > > Subject: Niece married to Uncle?
> > > >
> > > > Can anyone confirm my interpretation of this statement from "The Private Life of John Howard," by Anne Crawford (p. 11 in Richard III: Loyalty, Lordship, and Law?)
> > > >
> > > > "... Catherine, who married Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, brother of her aunt, Catherine, Duchess of Norfolk."
> > > >
> > > > Does this mean Catherine married her uncle?
> > > >
> > > > The author makes this statement without any further comment. There is no criticism of the kind Richard III received when rumors about a plan to marry his niece circulated. This suggests to me that nieces marrying their uncles might not have been as shocking as Richard III's critics claimed.
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Marion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>