Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.

Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and had them killed, or at least confined because of this. Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a pre-existing story if I can avoid it.

Hi, Brian!

The only vaguely similar idea appears in the fantasy The Dragon Waiting, where the boys have been nipped by vampires, if I recall aright.

It's a fun book, for those unfamiliar with it. The premise is one where the Romans never lost western Europe. "Richard" becomes Dux of all Britain, and I believe Henry's in cahoots with Byzantines and vampires. Makes the current spate of Such-and-Such With Zombies, etc. seem more "been there, done that."

So as long as the boys aren't vampires, I believe you're fine. And even if they are vampires, but not Romans...? I can imagine them as like The Children of the Damned (movie from the 60s).

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:01 AM
Subject: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 
Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and had them killed, or at least confined because of this. Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a pre-existing story if I can avoid it.

it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.

but this is from my notes.
the kin connection between holy roman emporer sigismund de luxemburg, brother of anne who married ric ii..

they are 4th cousin 3 times removed from from jaquetta de luxemburg st. pol. she is also a 4th cousin 3r from jodokus de luxemburg.

sigismund and anne de luxemburg are first half cousins to jodokus de luxemburg who married elizabeth oppeln daughter of elizabeth basaraba, sister of the great great grandfather of vlad the impaler aka dracula.

dracula was born in 1431 and died 1476. this makes him contemporary with the woodville clan and their brood.


there is also the legend of muselina..or a name like that. i'm busy right now, or i'd did up the correct name. i'm sure one or more of the group can give you the name.

i belive the de luxemburgs claimed ancestry her. anthony woodville, or a cousin in a tournament to celebrate elizabeth's marriage to edward had a banner or coat of arms/sheild displaying the melsalina? ..a woman with a snake's tail. she was the spawn of the devil who married/bewitched a king and would not attend church. hope this is enough info to give you a kick start on the possible origin of the evil of woodville's children.

roslyn

--- On Fri, 11/25/11, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...> wrote:

> From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
> Subject: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
> To:
> Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
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> Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to
> create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being
> inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and
> had them killed, or at least confined because of this.
> Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed
> them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a
> story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a
> pre-existing story if I can avoid it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
evil being, incidentally. It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):

http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
(http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
> relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
> mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
> relationship.
>
> but this is from my notes.
> the kin connection between holy roman emporer sigismund de luxemburg,
> brother of anne who married ric ii..
>
> they are 4th cousin 3 times removed from from jaquetta de luxemburg st.
> pol. she is also a 4th cousin 3r from jodokus de luxemburg.
>
> sigismund and anne de luxemburg are first half cousins to jodokus de
> luxemburg who married elizabeth oppeln daughter of elizabeth basaraba,
> sister of the great great grandfather of vlad the impaler aka dracula.
>
> dracula was born in 1431 and died 1476. this makes him contemporary with
> the woodville clan and their brood.
>
> there is also the legend of muselina..or a name like that. i'm busy right
> now, or i'd did up the correct name. i'm sure one or more of the group can
> give you the name.
>
> i belive the de luxemburgs claimed ancestry her. anthony woodville, or a
> cousin in a tournament to celebrate elizabeth's marriage to edward had a
> banner or coat of arms/sheild displaying the melsalina? ..a woman with a
> snake's tail. she was the spawn of the devil who married/bewitched a king
> and would not attend church. hope this is enough info to give you a kick
> start on the possible origin of the evil of woodville's children.
>
> roslyn
>
> --- On Fri, 11/25/11, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...> wrote:
>
> > From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
>
> > Subject: Fictional story about the sons of
> Edward IV being evil.
> > To:
> > Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
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> >
> >
> > Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to
> > create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being
> > inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and
> > had them killed, or at least confined because of this.
> > Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed
> > them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a
> > story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a
> > pre-existing story if I can avoid it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.

Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
evil being, incidentally.  It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):

http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
(http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
> relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
> mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
> relationship.
>
> but this is from my notes.
> the kin connection between holy roman emporer sigismund de luxemburg,
> brother of anne who married ric ii..
>
> they are 4th cousin 3 times removed from from jaquetta de luxemburg st.
> pol. she is also a 4th cousin 3r from jodokus de luxemburg.
>
> sigismund and anne de luxemburg are first half cousins to jodokus de
> luxemburg who married elizabeth oppeln daughter of elizabeth basaraba,
> sister of the great great grandfather of vlad the impaler aka dracula.
>
> dracula was born in 1431 and died 1476. this makes him contemporary with
> the woodville clan and their brood.
>
> there is also the legend of muselina..or a name like that. i'm busy right
> now, or i'd did up the correct name. i'm sure one or more of the group can
> give you the name.
>
> i belive the de luxemburgs claimed ancestry her. anthony woodville, or a
> cousin in a tournament to celebrate elizabeth's marriage to edward had a
> banner or coat of arms/sheild displaying the melsalina? ..a woman with a
> snake's tail. she was the spawn of the devil who married/bewitched a king
> and would not attend church. hope this is enough info to give you a kick
> start on the possible origin of the evil of woodville's children.
>
> roslyn
>
> --- On Fri, 11/25/11, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...> wrote:
>
> > From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
>
> > Subject: Fictional story about the sons of
> Edward IV being evil.
> > To:
> > Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to
> > create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being
> > inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and
> > had them killed, or at least confined because of this.
> > Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed
> > them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a
> > story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a
> > pre-existing story if I can avoid it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

The Basarabas were allegedly related not just to Vladimir of Transylvania, but to Elizabeth of Bathory, who enjoyed bathing in human blood. Lots of good stuff, Brian. Best wishes! A I recall, Dragon in waiting was a Hugo nominee in its day.

The incident with the Bohemian knight Von Poppelau might be tinkered with to such ends; yes, Vlad held back the Turks, but there's plenty of room for "playing."
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: MD Deck <mdbuyingstuff@...>
To: richardiii <>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:16 PM
Subject: Fw: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.

Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
evil being, incidentally.  It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):

http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
(http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
> relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
> mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
> relationship.
>
> but this is from my notes.
> the kin connection between holy roman emporer sigismund de luxemburg,
> brother of anne who married ric ii..
>
> they are 4th cousin 3 times removed from from jaquetta de luxemburg st.
> pol. she is also a 4th cousin 3r from jodokus de luxemburg.
>
> sigismund and anne de luxemburg are first half cousins to jodokus de
> luxemburg who married elizabeth oppeln daughter of elizabeth basaraba,
> sister of the great great grandfather of vlad the impaler aka dracula.
>
> dracula was born in 1431 and died 1476. this makes him contemporary with
> the woodville clan and their brood.
>
> there is also the legend of muselina..or a name like that. i'm busy right
> now, or i'd did up the correct name. i'm sure one or more of the group can
> give you the name.
>
> i belive the de luxemburgs claimed ancestry her. anthony woodville, or a
> cousin in a tournament to celebrate elizabeth's marriage to edward had a
> banner or coat of arms/sheild displaying the melsalina? ..a woman with a
> snake's tail. she was the spawn of the devil who married/bewitched a king
> and would not attend church. hope this is enough info to give you a kick
> start on the possible origin of the evil of woodville's children.
>
> roslyn
>
> --- On Fri, 11/25/11, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...> wrote:
>
> > From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
>
> > Subject: Fictional story about the sons of
> Edward IV being evil.
> > To:
> > Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to
> > create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being
> > inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and
> > had them killed, or at least confined because of this.
> > Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed
> > them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a
> > story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a
> > pre-existing story if I can avoid it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
> 
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Furthermore, Vlad was the ostensible ancestor of Princess May of Teck, who married George V.

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:43 PM
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.



The Basarabas were allegedly related not just to Vladimir of Transylvania, but to Elizabeth of Bathory, who enjoyed bathing in human blood. Lots of good stuff, Brian. Best wishes! A I recall, Dragon in waiting was a Hugo nominee in its day.

The incident with the Bohemian knight Von Poppelau might be tinkered with to such ends; yes, Vlad held back the Turks, but there's plenty of room for "playing."

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: MD Deck <mdbuyingstuff@...>
To: richardiii <>
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:16 PM
Subject: Fw: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.




----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.

Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
evil being, incidentally. It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):

http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
(http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
> relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
> mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
> relationship.
>
> but this is from my notes.
> the kin connection between holy roman emporer sigismund de luxemburg,
> brother of anne who married ric ii..
>
> they are 4th cousin 3 times removed from from jaquetta de luxemburg st.
> pol. she is also a 4th cousin 3r from jodokus de luxemburg.
>
> sigismund and anne de luxemburg are first half cousins to jodokus de
> luxemburg who married elizabeth oppeln daughter of elizabeth basaraba,
> sister of the great great grandfather of vlad the impaler aka dracula.
>
> dracula was born in 1431 and died 1476. this makes him contemporary with
> the woodville clan and their brood.
>
> there is also the legend of muselina..or a name like that. i'm busy right
> now, or i'd did up the correct name. i'm sure one or more of the group can
> give you the name.
>
> i belive the de luxemburgs claimed ancestry her. anthony woodville, or a
> cousin in a tournament to celebrate elizabeth's marriage to edward had a
> banner or coat of arms/sheild displaying the melsalina? ..a woman with a
> snake's tail. she was the spawn of the devil who married/bewitched a king
> and would not attend church. hope this is enough info to give you a kick
> start on the possible origin of the evil of woodville's children.
>
> roslyn
>
> --- On Fri, 11/25/11, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...> wrote:
>
> > From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
>
> > Subject: Fictional story about the sons of
> Edward IV being evil.
> > To:
> > Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to
> > create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being
> > inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and
> > had them killed, or at least confined because of this.
> > Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed
> > them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a
> > story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a
> > pre-existing story if I can avoid it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Wow! Thanks everyone for that interesting insight. So far, noone has mentioned any fiction already existing that I might accidentally plagerize. That is good. The plot is in an infant state right now and I am working on other stories. I see Richard III going to escourt the minority Edward V to London when he first intercepts the Woodville escorts and takes control of the Prince. I see Richard deducing within a few moments of contact with the Prince that the child is a manipulative, evil child not at all fit for the throne. I see a scene something evily poinient almost like the kid's head spins completely around, only more subtle. I see Buckingham preemting the murder of both boys in the Tower, thinking that Richard will be grateful. I see Richard apalled and dismisive of Buckingham. I see Buckingham making the best of the situation by alining himself with The Tudor faction with plans of his own bid for the throne. The staunch religios culture of the era makes it a ripe setting for almost Revelation based conotations. Lots of oppurtunities for historical based accounts of witchcraft. Good priests versus corrupt priests.
Usually, my spelling is better. If anyone wants to read some of my other efforts, I have a website called Disturbing Daydreams. I have had a few things published, a short story called Good for the Gander is currently featured in the current issue of a small press anthology in England, called Supernatural Tales.
Keep those great ideas coming!

--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Furthermore, Vlad was the ostensible ancestor of Princess May of Teck, who married George V.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Judy Thomson
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>
> The Basarabas were allegedly related not just to Vladimir of Transylvania, but to Elizabeth of Bathory, who enjoyed bathing in human blood. Lots of good stuff, Brian. Best wishes! A I recall, Dragon in waiting was a Hugo nominee in its day.
>
> The incident with the Bohemian knight Von Poppelau might be tinkered with to such ends; yes, Vlad held back the Turks, but there's plenty of room for "playing."
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: MD Deck <mdbuyingstuff@...>
> To: richardiii <>
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:16 PM
> Subject: Fw: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
> Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
> evil being, incidentally. It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):
>
> http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
> http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
> (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
> > relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
> > mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
> > relationship.
> >
> > but this is from my notes.
> > the kin connection between holy roman emporer sigismund de luxemburg,
> > brother of anne who married ric ii..
> >
> > they are 4th cousin 3 times removed from from jaquetta de luxemburg st.
> > pol. she is also a 4th cousin 3r from jodokus de luxemburg.
> >
> > sigismund and anne de luxemburg are first half cousins to jodokus de
> > luxemburg who married elizabeth oppeln daughter of elizabeth basaraba,
> > sister of the great great grandfather of vlad the impaler aka dracula.
> >
> > dracula was born in 1431 and died 1476. this makes him contemporary with
> > the woodville clan and their brood.
> >
> > there is also the legend of muselina..or a name like that. i'm busy right
> > now, or i'd did up the correct name. i'm sure one or more of the group can
> > give you the name.
> >
> > i belive the de luxemburgs claimed ancestry her. anthony woodville, or a
> > cousin in a tournament to celebrate elizabeth's marriage to edward had a
> > banner or coat of arms/sheild displaying the melsalina? ..a woman with a
> > snake's tail. she was the spawn of the devil who married/bewitched a king
> > and would not attend church. hope this is enough info to give you a kick
> > start on the possible origin of the evil of woodville's children.
> >
> > roslyn
> >
> > --- On Fri, 11/25/11, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...> wrote:
> >
> > > From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
> >
> > > Subject: Fictional story about the sons of
> > Edward IV being evil.
> > > To:
> > > Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to
> > > create a fictional story about Edward IV's sons being
> > > inherantly evil. Richard III could have recognized this and
> > > had them killed, or at least confined because of this.
> > > Buckingham could have"jumped the gun" and killed
> > > them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever read such a
> > > story in the past? I would rather not plagerize a
> > > pre-existing story if I can avoid it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Don't worry about plagiarism. If your writing is original and out of your own head, and you are not actually copying something (portions of text, or a substantial plot), then it is just coincidence! Nina

omg..don't let the twilight fans know this. william is descended from a vampire..:-)

--- On Fri, 11/25/11, Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:

> From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
> Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
> To:
> Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 5:56 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Furthermore, Vlad was the ostensible ancestor of
> Princess May of Teck, who married George V.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Judy Thomson
>
> To:
>
>
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 10:43 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Fictional story
> about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>
> The Basarabas were allegedly related not just to Vladimir
> of Transylvania, but to Elizabeth of Bathory, who enjoyed
> bathing in human blood. Lots of good stuff, Brian. Best
> wishes! A I recall, Dragon in waiting was a Hugo nominee in
> its day.
>
>
>
> The incident with the Bohemian knight Von Poppelau might be
> tinkered with to such ends; yes, Vlad held back the Turks,
> but there's plenty of room for "playing."
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: MD Deck <mdbuyingstuff@...>
>
> To: richardiii <>
>
>
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 4:16 PM
>
> Subject: Fw: Fictional story
> about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>
> From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
>
> To:
>
>
> Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 12:45 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Fictional story
> about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>
> Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I
> don't consider her an
>
> evil being, incidentally. It was a mixed marriage that
> didn't work):
>
>
>
> http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
>
> http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
>
> (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)
>
>
>
> Maria
>
> ejbronte@...
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 3:19 PM, fayre rose <fayreroze@...>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > **
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i
> correctly recall, in-law
>
> > relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula.
> this kinship is via their
>
> > mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg
> ancestry.
>
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you
> the precise
>
> > relationship.
>
> >
>
> > but this is from my notes.
>
> > the kin connection between holy roman emporer
> sigismund de luxemburg,
>
> > brother of anne who married ric ii..
>
> >
>
> > they are 4th cousin 3 times removed from from
> jaquetta de luxemburg st.
>
> > pol. she is also a 4th cousin 3r from jodokus de
> luxemburg.
>
> >
>
> > sigismund and anne de luxemburg are first half
> cousins to jodokus de
>
> > luxemburg who married elizabeth oppeln daughter of
> elizabeth basaraba,
>
> > sister of the great great grandfather of vlad the
> impaler aka dracula.
>
> >
>
> > dracula was born in 1431 and died 1476. this makes
> him contemporary with
>
> > the woodville clan and their brood.
>
> >
>
> > there is also the legend of muselina..or a name like
> that. i'm busy right
>
> > now, or i'd did up the correct name. i'm
> sure one or more of the group can
>
> > give you the name.
>
> >
>
> > i belive the de luxemburgs claimed ancestry her.
> anthony woodville, or a
>
> > cousin in a tournament to celebrate elizabeth's
> marriage to edward had a
>
> > banner or coat of arms/sheild displaying the
> melsalina? ..a woman with a
>
> > snake's tail. she was the spawn of the devil who
> married/bewitched a king
>
> > and would not attend church. hope this is enough
> info to give you a kick
>
> > start on the possible origin of the evil of
> woodville's children.
>
> >
>
> > roslyn
>
> >
>
> > --- On Fri, 11/25/11, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
>
> >
>
> > > Subject: Fictional
> story about the sons of
>
> > Edward IV being evil.
>
> > > To:
>
> > > Received: Friday, November 25, 2011, 12:01 PM
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Hello, i am new to this forum. I would like to
>
> > > create a fictional story about Edward IV's
> sons being
>
> > > inherantly evil. Richard III could have
> recognized this and
>
> > > had them killed, or at least confined because
> of this.
>
> > > Buckingham could have"jumped the gun"
> and killed
>
> > > them on his own initiative. Has anyone ever
> read such a
>
> > > story in the past? I would rather not plagerize
> a
>
> > > pre-existing story if I can avoid it.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
>


And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.

Kay

--- In , Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>
> Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
> evil being, incidentally. It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):
>
> http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
> http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
> (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...


That's it -- Melusine. That'll teach me to read all the postings before I reply to one.

Kay

All this fairy and man inter breeding smacks of Tolkie. I am sure he was aware of this and many other legends. Anyway, I have some other writing projects underway, but I'd like to make a start on this thing soon. I have an interesting idea or proposal. I will write a scene or two from the proposed story, in rough draft. i will display it on my website. The website use is free anyone who wishes to add ideas, criticisms, or extra information can send it to me via the "contact me" part of the website. I could ad those suggestions that work out well, with credit given. Final choices as to plot direction are mine, but the finished project could be a colaborative effort. Ussually these things don't net a dime, but if something profitable were to occur, the proceeds could be donated. We could call it the Rehabilatate Richard project. Any takers?

--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> >
> > Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
> > evil being, incidentally. It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):
> >
> > http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
> > http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
> > (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
>
>
> That's it -- Melusine. That'll teach me to read all the postings before I reply to one.
>
> Kay
>

Let us read a little : ) first.

With that done, people can make their decisions. 

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 
All this fairy and man inter breeding smacks of Tolkie. I am sure he was aware of this and many other legends. Anyway, I have some other writing projects underway, but I'd like to make a start on this thing soon. I have an interesting idea or proposal. I will write a scene or two from the proposed story, in rough draft. i will display it on my website. The website use is free anyone who wishes to add ideas, criticisms, or extra information can send it to me via the "contact me" part of the website. I could ad those suggestions that work out well, with credit given. Final choices as to plot direction are mine, but the finished project could be a colaborative effort. Ussually these things don't net a dime, but if something profitable were to occur, the proceeds could be donated. We could call it the Rehabilatate Richard project. Any takers?

--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Maria Torres <ejbronte@> wrote:
> >
> > Here are a couple of sites pertaining to Melusine (I don't consider her an
> > evil being, incidentally. It was a mixed marriage that didn't work):
> >
> > http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/melusine.htm
> > http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/melusine.html
> > (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/folklore/folktales/articles/pressyne.html)
> >
> > Maria
> > ejbronte@
>
>
> That's it -- Melusine. That'll teach me to read all the postings before I reply to one.
>
> Kay
>

Sound advice, Judy! It is so easy to talk about what we are going to write as a way of putting off actually doing it. Just sit down and write!

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Let us read a little : ) first.
>
> With that done, people can make their decisions. 
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>

Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III maligned reputation syndrome.

GABRIELA VILCU
I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it, had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my life.
Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that, upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages: impalement.
I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula, that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel, fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this research.

I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
Barbara






--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@> wrote:
> >
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
> >
>
>
> And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.
>
> Kay
>

Thanks for the informatio nthat you have posted bellow. I had just read Alison Wier's The Princes in the tower and the Wars of the Roses and was inspired with the idea for the story causing this thread. Mrs. Wier has her facts nicely laid out against Richard the III and probably is correct in her conclusion given the ruthless practices of the day. Still, it bothers me that Richard was so loyal to Edward IV and then turned against his sons so abruptly. Most nobility seemed to have switched loyalty at the drop of a hat even to close family in those days. Yet Richard remained staunchly loyal to Edward even against brother George. The Howards remained loyal which seemed to be a family tradition.
Anyway, I plan to outline sections of The Princes in the Tower to get chronology and facts straight before I start fictionalizing. If anyone has read these books and finds gross inacuracies in them, please let me know. Right now I am thinking that one of the first red flags Richard might have seen was the sudden death Edward IV. Did the Wydvilles have something to do with it, especially if they particapated in Edward's current debauchery at the time? Was his wife particularly angry with him at the time or did she just see it as the price a woman paid for being married to a king?
--- In , "barbaragd@..." <barbaragd@...> wrote:
>
> Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III maligned reputation syndrome.
>
> GABRIELA VILCU
> I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it, had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my life.
> Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
> Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that, upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages: impalement.
> I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula, that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel, fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this research.
>
> I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@> wrote:
> > >
> > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
> > >
> >
> >
> > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.
> >
> > Kay
> >
>

Argh! That was a dreadful book - I had to burn my copy in the end. Full of
contradictions & suppositions & 'she felt like'...this or that had to have
happened - hardly well researched,
Dreadful!
You'd be much better off reading a factual book - with clear sources - The
Maligned King by Annette Carson.Well written, clear bringing facts both in
Richards favour & against so its not a one sided read. A timeline created
from this fully researched book would do wonders for anyone wanting to see
clearly the facts & when they took place.

Lisa

On 1 December 2011 19:57, day.brian75 <day.brian75@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> Thanks for the informatio nthat you have posted bellow. I had just read
> Alison Wier's The Princes in the tower and the Wars of the Roses and was
> inspired with the idea for the story causing this thread. Mrs. Wier has her
> facts nicely laid out against Richard the III and probably is correct in
> her conclusion given the ruthless practices of the day. Still, it bothers
> me that Richard was so loyal to Edward IV and then turned against his sons
> so abruptly. Most nobility seemed to have switched loyalty at the drop of a
> hat even to close family in those days. Yet Richard remained staunchly
> loyal to Edward even against brother George. The Howards remained loyal
> which seemed to be a family tradition.
> Anyway, I plan to outline sections of The Princes in the Tower to get
> chronology and facts straight before I start fictionalizing. If anyone has
> read these books and finds gross inacuracies in them, please let me know.
> Right now I am thinking that one of the first red flags Richard might have
> seen was the sudden death Edward IV. Did the Wydvilles have something to do
> with it, especially if they particapated in Edward's current debauchery at
> the time? Was his wife particularly angry with him at the time or did she
> just see it as the price a woman paid for being married to a king?
> --- In , "barbaragd@..." <barbaragd@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any
> aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth
> passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard
> III maligned reputation syndrome.
> >
> > GABRIELA VILCU
> > I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
> interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
> had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
> settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
> reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I
> returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my
> life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not
> even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were
> leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives.
> For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained
> widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it
> was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> > After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest
> Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for
> a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The
> time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of
> my life.
> > Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about
> communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with
> great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in
> finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
> > Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
> upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the
> statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did
> so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He
> managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same
> method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian
> villages: impalement.
> > I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed
> to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
> that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
> studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
> legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
> fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
> research.
> >
> > I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> > Barbara
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "oregon_katy"
> <oregon_katy@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
> relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
> mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
> relationship.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a
> female demon whose name escapes me just now.
> > >
> > > Kay
> > >
> >
>
>
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com

Restoration Portfolio Photographs
Link<http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1512023445851.2067072.1392349990&l=842dfbb7f4&type=1>

Alison Weir, although an accredited historian, is highly prejudiced against
Richard III, her research is not either unbiased or unblemished and her
conclusions are certainly never to be taken as gospel. I would recommend
Richard III by Paul Murray Kendall and the more recent Richard III: The
Maligned King by Annette Carson any day rather than anything by Ms. Weir,
both for accuracy and for insightful information. It is not known how
Elizabeth Woodville reacted to her husband's behaviour, although her
approval and benefit in her position as queen are inherent in some
contemporary documents. She and Edward IV did not latterly live in constant
close proximity and there are some small indications that she might have
fallen from grace in his eyes shortly before his death. She may have been
angry - but I think it likely she was more distraught at the possibility of
losing her advantages. However, that's my supposition and cannot be backed
up by documentation.

For the possibility of Woodville complicity in Edward IV's early death,
please see Annette Carson's The Maligned King as above.

Good luck, Barbara



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of day.brian75
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2011 10:58 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.






Thanks for the informatio nthat you have posted bellow. I had just read
Alison Wier's The Princes in the tower and the Wars of the Roses and was
inspired with the idea for the story causing this thread. Mrs. Wier has her
facts nicely laid out against Richard the III and probably is correct in her
conclusion given the ruthless practices of the day. Still, it bothers me
that Richard was so loyal to Edward IV and then turned against his sons so
abruptly. Most nobility seemed to have switched loyalty at the drop of a hat
even to close family in those days. Yet Richard remained staunchly loyal to
Edward even against brother George. The Howards remained loyal which seemed
to be a family tradition.
Anyway, I plan to outline sections of The Princes in the Tower to get
chronology and facts straight before I start fictionalizing. If anyone has
read these books and finds gross inacuracies in them, please let me know.
Right now I am thinking that one of the first red flags Richard might have
seen was the sudden death Edward IV. Did the Wydvilles have something to do
with it, especially if they particapated in Edward's current debauchery at
the time? Was his wife particularly angry with him at the time or did she
just see it as the price a woman paid for being married to a king?
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "barbaragd@..."
<barbaragd@...> wrote:
>
> Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring
authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing
on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III
maligned reputation syndrome.
>
> GABRIELA VILCU
> I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest
Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for
a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The
time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of
my life.
> Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
> Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
> I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed
to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.
>
> I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "oregon_katy"
<oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
relationship.
> > >
> >
> >
> > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female
demon whose name escapes me just now.
> >
> > Kay
> >
>

I concur with both Lisa and Barbara on this, and Annette's book, which is excellent, clarifies some points in Kendall, in that she draws upon information not as readily available to him at the time (BL ms Harleian 433, for example; in PMK's time, it had not yet been indexed).

Judy 
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 
Alison Weir, although an accredited historian, is highly prejudiced against
Richard III, her research is not either unbiased or unblemished and her
conclusions are certainly never to be taken as gospel. I would recommend
Richard III by Paul Murray Kendall and the more recent Richard III: The
Maligned King by Annette Carson any day rather than anything by Ms. Weir,
both for accuracy and for insightful information. It is not known how
Elizabeth Woodville reacted to her husband's behaviour, although her
approval and benefit in her position as queen are inherent in some
contemporary documents. She and Edward IV did not latterly live in constant
close proximity and there are some small indications that she might have
fallen from grace in his eyes shortly before his death. She may have been
angry - but I think it likely she was more distraught at the possibility of
losing her advantages. However, that's my supposition and cannot be backed
up by documentation.

For the possibility of Woodville complicity in Edward IV's early death,
please see Annette Carson's The Maligned King as above.

Good luck, Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of day.brian75
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2011 10:58 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.

Thanks for the informatio nthat you have posted bellow. I had just read
Alison Wier's The Princes in the tower and the Wars of the Roses and was
inspired with the idea for the story causing this thread. Mrs. Wier has her
facts nicely laid out against Richard the III and probably is correct in her
conclusion given the ruthless practices of the day. Still, it bothers me
that Richard was so loyal to Edward IV and then turned against his sons so
abruptly. Most nobility seemed to have switched loyalty at the drop of a hat
even to close family in those days. Yet Richard remained staunchly loyal to
Edward even against brother George. The Howards remained loyal which seemed
to be a family tradition.
Anyway, I plan to outline sections of The Princes in the Tower to get
chronology and facts straight before I start fictionalizing. If anyone has
read these books and finds gross inacuracies in them, please let me know.
Right now I am thinking that one of the first red flags Richard might have
seen was the sudden death Edward IV. Did the Wydvilles have something to do
with it, especially if they particapated in Edward's current debauchery at
the time? Was his wife particularly angry with him at the time or did she
just see it as the price a woman paid for being married to a king?
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "barbaragd@..."
<barbaragd@...> wrote:
>
> Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring
authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing
on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III
maligned reputation syndrome.
>
> GABRIELA VILCU
> I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest
Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for
a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The
time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of
my life.
> Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
> Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
> I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed
to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.
>
> I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "oregon_katy"
<oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
relationship.
> > >
> >
> >
> > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female
demon whose name escapes me just now.
> >
> > Kay
> >
>

It's very pleasing to see "The Maligned King" mentioned, and many thanks to all who have recommended it. It isn't a biography, as Kendall's is, but if Brian is looking for a succinct narration of the events of the summer of 1483 relating to Richard III, together with an account of what was known and said of his two nephews at the time (as opposed to what's been said in hindsight), then I think he will find useful material in my chapters 8 and 9. I also recommend consulting the original sources - most of them aren't difficult to get hold of.

Obviously I take a different line on Richard III than historians like Weir and Hicks, but my argument is that although no one can know categorically what happened 500 years ago (and beware writers who claim they do!), the interpretations I suggest are at least compatible with the facts.

I'm aware that there is some strong anti-Woodville emotion sloshing about in Ricardianland, which I think is a pity, although understandable as a reaction to the virulent anti-Richard emotion we've been discussing lately. True, I am interested in the curious circumstances of Edward IV's death, as a number of people have been over the centuries. My opening chapter mentions several theories and investigates one in particular which was originated by Richard Collins, who built an interesting case for arsenic poisoning and pointed to the Woodvilles as the perpetrators. If you want to follow this up, look at what Collins wrote and the evidence he assembled, both medical and historical. Basically I remain open-minded, my point being, as always, that we just don't know as much as we like to think we know.

If the forum 'E4Arsenic' still exists, you'd also do well to look at all the different ideas put forward there. I wonder if Joan can please advise? There's a lot of potential there for excellent fiction plots.

Personally, I think there's much more of interest about the Woodvilles than whether their offspring were the devil's spawn (or were the girls immune?). But that's just me - I'm fascinated by the 15th century, but others are interested in water-nymphs, vampires and diabolical possession. Each to his own .....
Regards, Annette


----- Original Message -----
From: barbara
To:
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 1:38 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.



Alison Weir, although an accredited historian, is highly prejudiced against
Richard III, her research is not either unbiased or unblemished and her
conclusions are certainly never to be taken as gospel. I would recommend
Richard III by Paul Murray Kendall and the more recent Richard III: The
Maligned King by Annette Carson any day rather than anything by Ms. Weir,
both for accuracy and for insightful information. It is not known how
Elizabeth Woodville reacted to her husband's behaviour, although her
approval and benefit in her position as queen are inherent in some
contemporary documents. She and Edward IV did not latterly live in constant
close proximity and there are some small indications that she might have
fallen from grace in his eyes shortly before his death. She may have been
angry - but I think it likely she was more distraught at the possibility of
losing her advantages. However, that's my supposition and cannot be backed
up by documentation.

For the possibility of Woodville complicity in Edward IV's early death,
please see Annette Carson's The Maligned King as above.

Good luck, Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of day.brian75
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2011 10:58 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.

Thanks for the informatio nthat you have posted bellow. I had just read
Alison Wier's The Princes in the tower and the Wars of the Roses and was
inspired with the idea for the story causing this thread. Mrs. Wier has her
facts nicely laid out against Richard the III and probably is correct in her
conclusion given the ruthless practices of the day. Still, it bothers me
that Richard was so loyal to Edward IV and then turned against his sons so
abruptly. Most nobility seemed to have switched loyalty at the drop of a hat
even to close family in those days. Yet Richard remained staunchly loyal to
Edward even against brother George. The Howards remained loyal which seemed
to be a family tradition.
Anyway, I plan to outline sections of The Princes in the Tower to get
chronology and facts straight before I start fictionalizing. If anyone has
read these books and finds gross inacuracies in them, please let me know.
Right now I am thinking that one of the first red flags Richard might have
seen was the sudden death Edward IV. Did the Wydvilles have something to do
with it, especially if they particapated in Edward's current debauchery at
the time? Was his wife particularly angry with him at the time or did she
just see it as the price a woman paid for being married to a king?
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "barbaragd@..."
<barbaragd@...> wrote:
>
> Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring
authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing
on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III
maligned reputation syndrome.
>
> GABRIELA VILCU
> I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest
Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for
a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The
time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of
my life.
> Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
> Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
> I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed
to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.
>
> I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "oregon_katy"
<oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
relationship.
> > >
> >
> >
> > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female
demon whose name escapes me just now.
> >
> > Kay
> >
>

The most likely contributor to E4's untimely demise was adult onset diabetes, due to his lifestyle...but we'll never know for sure. 

The old murder mystery standby, foxglove (digitalis) is quicker than arsenic.... ; )

In those days, people imbibed some pretty awful stuff deliberately.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 
It's very pleasing to see "The Maligned King" mentioned, and many thanks to all who have recommended it. It isn't a biography, as Kendall's is, but if Brian is looking for a succinct narration of the events of the summer of 1483 relating to Richard III, together with an account of what was known and said of his two nephews at the time (as opposed to what's been said in hindsight), then I think he will find useful material in my chapters 8 and 9. I also recommend consulting the original sources - most of them aren't difficult to get hold of.

Obviously I take a different line on Richard III than historians like Weir and Hicks, but my argument is that although no one can know categorically what happened 500 years ago (and beware writers who claim they do!), the interpretations I suggest are at least compatible with the facts.

I'm aware that there is some strong anti-Woodville emotion sloshing about in Ricardianland, which I think is a pity, although understandable as a reaction to the virulent anti-Richard emotion we've been discussing lately. True, I am interested in the curious circumstances of Edward IV's death, as a number of people have been over the centuries. My opening chapter mentions several theories and investigates one in particular which was originated by Richard Collins, who built an interesting case for arsenic poisoning and pointed to the Woodvilles as the perpetrators. If you want to follow this up, look at what Collins wrote and the evidence he assembled, both medical and historical. Basically I remain open-minded, my point being, as always, that we just don't know as much as we like to think we know.

If the forum 'E4Arsenic' still exists, you'd also do well to look at all the different ideas put forward there. I wonder if Joan can please advise? There's a lot of potential there for excellent fiction plots.

Personally, I think there's much more of interest about the Woodvilles than whether their offspring were the devil's spawn (or were the girls immune?). But that's just me - I'm fascinated by the 15th century, but others are interested in water-nymphs, vampires and diabolical possession. Each to his own .....
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: barbara
To:
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 1:38 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.

Alison Weir, although an accredited historian, is highly prejudiced against
Richard III, her research is not either unbiased or unblemished and her
conclusions are certainly never to be taken as gospel. I would recommend
Richard III by Paul Murray Kendall and the more recent Richard III: The
Maligned King by Annette Carson any day rather than anything by Ms. Weir,
both for accuracy and for insightful information. It is not known how
Elizabeth Woodville reacted to her husband's behaviour, although her
approval and benefit in her position as queen are inherent in some
contemporary documents. She and Edward IV did not latterly live in constant
close proximity and there are some small indications that she might have
fallen from grace in his eyes shortly before his death. She may have been
angry - but I think it likely she was more distraught at the possibility of
losing her advantages. However, that's my supposition and cannot be backed
up by documentation.

For the possibility of Woodville complicity in Edward IV's early death,
please see Annette Carson's The Maligned King as above.

Good luck, Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of day.brian75
Sent: Friday, 2 December 2011 10:58 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.

Thanks for the informatio nthat you have posted bellow. I had just read
Alison Wier's The Princes in the tower and the Wars of the Roses and was
inspired with the idea for the story causing this thread. Mrs. Wier has her
facts nicely laid out against Richard the III and probably is correct in her
conclusion given the ruthless practices of the day. Still, it bothers me
that Richard was so loyal to Edward IV and then turned against his sons so
abruptly. Most nobility seemed to have switched loyalty at the drop of a hat
even to close family in those days. Yet Richard remained staunchly loyal to
Edward even against brother George. The Howards remained loyal which seemed
to be a family tradition.
Anyway, I plan to outline sections of The Princes in the Tower to get
chronology and facts straight before I start fictionalizing. If anyone has
read these books and finds gross inacuracies in them, please let me know.
Right now I am thinking that one of the first red flags Richard might have
seen was the sudden death Edward IV. Did the Wydvilles have something to do
with it, especially if they particapated in Edward's current debauchery at
the time? Was his wife particularly angry with him at the time or did she
just see it as the price a woman paid for being married to a king?
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "barbaragd@..."
<barbaragd@...> wrote:
>
> Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring
authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing
on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III
maligned reputation syndrome.
>
> GABRIELA VILCU
> I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest
Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for
a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The
time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of
my life.
> Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
> Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
> I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed
to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.
>
> I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> Barbara
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "oregon_katy"
<oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
relationship.
> > >
> >
> >
> > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female
demon whose name escapes me just now.
> >
> > Kay
> >
>

vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.
 
vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his crown, working them to death.  vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die horridly now" motivational tactic.

vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe, including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of the carpathian creep.
 
it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and the sultan?
 
roslyn
 
 
 

--- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...> wrote:


From: barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...>
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
To:
Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM



 



Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III maligned reputation syndrome.

GABRIELA VILCU
I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it, had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my life.
Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that, upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages: impalement.
I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula, that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel, fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this research.

I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
Barbara

--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@> wrote:
> >
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
> >
>
>
> And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.
>
> Kay
>

My info agrees with yours, Roslyn. While it's possible Vlad's deeds were sometimes further "embellished," they didn't need much tarting up. 

I find him utterly fascinating, of course, and several "recent" books and films (Coppola's Dracula and the sequel to Stoker's book, co-written by the author's descendent) have created very enjoyable versions in which Vladimir Basaraba isn't the monster of legend. But unlike Richard, Vlad tepes needed no smear campaign to sully his good name. He ruled in accord with The Prince: If one can't be loved, rule through fear and loathing.

Not only did Richard refrain from cruel executions, for the most part, but of the approx 100 persons attainted by him, I believe he reversed all but one attainder. He was no saint, but neither was he cruel. In those "cruel" times, that fact speaks volumes about his true character.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: fayre rose <fayreroze@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 
vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.
 
vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his crown, working them to death.  vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die horridly now" motivational tactic.

vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe, including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of the carpathian creep.
 
it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and the sultan?
 
roslyn
 
 
 

--- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...> wrote:

From: barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...>
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
To:
Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM

 

Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III maligned reputation syndrome.

GABRIELA VILCU
I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it, had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my life.
Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that, upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages: impalement.
I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula, that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel, fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this research.

I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
Barbara

--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@> wrote:
> >
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
> >
>
>
> And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.
>
> Kay
>

thank you so much for the book suggestions. If nothing else, I have something to put on my Christmas list. While I am interested in the family connections to Vlad the Impaler, and the family myth of the fairy and mortal bonding, my writing tastes tehd more toward the Ray Bradbury school where only a few, subtle, supernatural occurences alter the course of everyday life. I am not much on the current trends in literature/movies where every time the author needs to jump the action ahead avampire or witch drops out of the sky. I do anticapate using some of the superstitions of the day to help justify some of Richard's conclusions and subsiquent actions. I may leave actual causes of death or enfeeblement unclarified as to a common, uncurable desease or condition of the time period, or a result of the archaic treatments of the day. I may leave it as tragically obvious to a modern day reader, yet clearly a point of unknown cause of desease of the time period. I also get the feeling that events and loyalties changed so rapidly during the times of the Wars of the Roses that any ruler or person of power had to be quick on his feet to make decisions AND be ready to stick to them come hell or high water.
Having taught public school for some years, I have also come across a truly bad character or two that I am relatively certain have been trouble to the world ever since I last saw them and will continue to be so. No amount of counciling will fix that with these people. I intend to create a fictional story where Richard sees that in at least Edward V and perhaps in his brother as well. Some sort of demonic posession may be implied or written directly in the plot. Whether the children die from murder, poisoning, or sudden illness remains to be decided. I probably won't know until I get there in the story. Personnaly, I figure there was a really good chance one or both boys died of a sudden illness and Richard figured no one would believe that he hadn't had them killed. At that point, he may have went along with the only viable plan left, usurping the throne. Now if Buckingham killed them early and told Richard as much at thier last amicable meeting, this could have caused the same results with Richard not at all happy with Buckingham.

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> My info agrees with yours, Roslyn. While it's possible Vlad's deeds were sometimes further "embellished," they didn't need much tarting up. 
>
> I find him utterly fascinating, of course, and several "recent" books and films (Coppola's Dracula and the sequel to Stoker's book, co-written by the author's descendent) have created very enjoyable versions in which Vladimir Basaraba isn't the monster of legend. But unlike Richard, Vlad tepes needed no smear campaign to sully his good name. He ruled in accord with The Prince: If one can't be loved, rule through fear and loathing.
>
> Not only did Richard refrain from cruel executions, for the most part, but of the approx 100 persons attainted by him, I believe he reversed all but one attainder. He was no saint, but neither was he cruel. In those "cruel" times, that fact speaks volumes about his true character.
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: fayre rose <fayreroze@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 1:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>  
> vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.
>  
> vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his crown, working them to death.  vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die horridly now" motivational tactic.
>
> vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe, including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of the carpathian creep.
>  
> it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and the sultan?
>  
> roslyn
>  
>  
>  
>
> --- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...> wrote:
>
> From: barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...>
> Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
> To:
> Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM
>
>  
>
> Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III maligned reputation syndrome.
>
> GABRIELA VILCU
> I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it, had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my life.
> Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
> Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that, upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages: impalement.
> I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula, that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel, fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this research.
>
> I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> Barbara
>
> --- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@> wrote:
> > >
> > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
> > >
> >
> >
> > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.
> >
> > Kay
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi, Brian,

If you research Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you may have your Real Life cause of evil. It's what's known as a sociopathy - an incurable "condition" that's not a disease, but an emotional deficit. Such a person is incapable of empathy, but may learn to mask this, early on. Even the myth of Melusine may be seen as a metaphor for NPD.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 
thank you so much for the book suggestions. If nothing else, I have something to put on my Christmas list. While I am interested in the family connections to Vlad the Impaler, and the family myth of the fairy and mortal bonding, my writing tastes tehd more toward the Ray Bradbury school where only a few, subtle, supernatural occurences alter the course of everyday life. I am not much on the current trends in literature/movies where every time the author needs to jump the action ahead avampire or witch drops out of the sky. I do anticapate using some of the superstitions of the day to help justify some of Richard's conclusions and subsiquent actions. I may leave actual causes of death or enfeeblement unclarified as to a common, uncurable desease or condition of the time period, or a result of the archaic treatments of the day. I may leave it as tragically obvious to a modern day reader, yet clearly a point of unknown cause of desease of the time
period. I also get the feeling that events and loyalties changed so rapidly during the times of the Wars of the Roses that any ruler or person of power had to be quick on his feet to make decisions AND be ready to stick to them come hell or high water.
Having taught public school for some years, I have also come across a truly bad character or two that I am relatively certain have been trouble to the world ever since I last saw them and will continue to be so. No amount of counciling will fix that with these people. I intend to create a fictional story where Richard sees that in at least Edward V and perhaps in his brother as well. Some sort of demonic posession may be implied or written directly in the plot. Whether the children die from murder, poisoning, or sudden illness remains to be decided. I probably won't know until I get there in the story. Personnaly, I figure there was a really good chance one or both boys died of a sudden illness and Richard figured no one would believe that he hadn't had them killed. At that point, he may have went along with the only viable plan left, usurping the throne. Now if Buckingham killed them early and told Richard as much at thier last amicable meeting,
this could have caused the same results with Richard not at all happy with Buckingham.

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> My info agrees with yours, Roslyn. While it's possible Vlad's deeds were sometimes further "embellished," they didn't need much tarting up. 
>
> I find him utterly fascinating, of course, and several "recent" books and films (Coppola's Dracula and the sequel to Stoker's book, co-written by the author's descendent) have created very enjoyable versions in which Vladimir Basaraba isn't the monster of legend. But unlike Richard, Vlad tepes needed no smear campaign to sully his good name. He ruled in accord with The Prince: If one can't be loved, rule through fear and loathing.
>
> Not only did Richard refrain from cruel executions, for the most part, but of the approx 100 persons attainted by him, I believe he reversed all but one attainder. He was no saint, but neither was he cruel. In those "cruel" times, that fact speaks volumes about his true character.
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: fayre rose <fayreroze@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 1:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>  
> vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.
>  
> vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his crown, working them to death.  vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die horridly now" motivational tactic.
>
> vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe, including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of the carpathian creep.
>  
> it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and the sultan?
>  
> roslyn
>  
>  
>  
>
> --- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...> wrote:
>
> From: barbaragd@... <barbaragd@...>
> Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
> To:
> Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM
>
>  
>
> Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III maligned reputation syndrome.
>
> GABRIELA VILCU
> I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it, had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my life.
> Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
> Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that, upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages: impalement.
> I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula, that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel, fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this research.
>
> I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> Barbara
>
> --- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@> wrote:
> > >
> > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
> > >
> >
> >
> > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.
> >
> > Kay
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I assume, like everthing else, it is shortened to NPD, so that is what I will type. My spelling won't handle the longhand name tonight. This disorder could have certainly applied to the students that i have experienced in the past. It could easily explain the characters of the children which I am proposing. But I think a novel needs a little "flash" for its unique premise on an old story such as Richard's, so I'll probably lean heavily toward the implied evil. Especialy given the religious fervor of the age and the superstition. I like stories with just a few, but very disturbing, supernatural events to justify the story. I don't want to change history with Superman dropping down to save the day, or Richard's head spinning around like the girl in the excorsist. Now, some frightening things may happen in the confines of the Tower, prompting Richard to order the dismissal of the boy's familiar entourage, but the current recorded history should ring true.
Well, I'm off to Amazon to see if these books that you all have suggested are available easily, or if I'll have to dig a little deeper. Thanks again. Brian

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Brian,
>
> If you research Narcissistic Personality Disorder, you may have your Real Life cause of evil. It's what's known as a sociopathy - an incurable "condition" that's not a disease, but an emotional deficit. Such a person is incapable of empathy, but may learn to mask this, early on. Even the myth of Melusine may be seen as a metaphor for NPD.
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: day.brian75 <day.brian75@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>  
> thank you so much for the book suggestions. If nothing else, I have something to put on my Christmas list. While I am interested in the family connections to Vlad the Impaler, and the family myth of the fairy and mortal bonding, my writing tastes tehd more toward the Ray Bradbury school where only a few, subtle, supernatural occurences alter the course of everyday life. I am not much on the current trends in literature/movies where every time the author needs to jump the action ahead avampire or witch drops out of the sky. I do anticapate using some of the superstitions of the day to help justify some of Richard's conclusions and subsiquent actions. I may leave actual causes of death or enfeeblement unclarified as to a common, uncurable desease or condition of the time period, or a result of the archaic treatments of the day. I may leave it as tragically obvious to a modern day reader, yet clearly a point of unknown cause of desease of the time
> period. I also get the feeling that events and loyalties changed so rapidly during the times of the Wars of the Roses that any ruler or person of power had to be quick on his feet to make decisions AND be ready to stick to them come hell or high water.
> Having taught public school for some years, I have also come across a truly bad character or two that I am relatively certain have been trouble to the world ever since I last saw them and will continue to be so. No amount of counciling will fix that with these people. I intend to create a fictional story where Richard sees that in at least Edward V and perhaps in his brother as well. Some sort of demonic posession may be implied or written directly in the plot. Whether the children die from murder, poisoning, or sudden illness remains to be decided. I probably won't know until I get there in the story. Personnaly, I figure there was a really good chance one or both boys died of a sudden illness and Richard figured no one would believe that he hadn't had them killed. At that point, he may have went along with the only viable plan left, usurping the throne. Now if Buckingham killed them early and told Richard as much at thier last amicable meeting,
> this could have caused the same results with Richard not at all happy with Buckingham.
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > My info agrees with yours, Roslyn. While it's possible Vlad's deeds were sometimes further "embellished," they didn't need much tarting up. 
> >
> > I find him utterly fascinating, of course, and several "recent" books and films (Coppola's Dracula and the sequel to Stoker's book, co-written by the author's descendent) have created very enjoyable versions in which Vladimir Basaraba isn't the monster of legend. But unlike Richard, Vlad tepes needed no smear campaign to sully his good name. He ruled in accord with The Prince: If one can't be loved, rule through fear and loathing.
> >
> > Not only did Richard refrain from cruel executions, for the most part, but of the approx 100 persons attainted by him, I believe he reversed all but one attainder. He was no saint, but neither was he cruel. In those "cruel" times, that fact speaks volumes about his true character.
> >
> > Judy
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: fayre rose <fayreroze@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 1:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
> >
> >
> >  
> > vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.
> >  
> > vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his crown, working them to death.  vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die horridly now" motivational tactic.
> >
> > vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe, including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of the carpathian creep.
> >  
> > it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and the sultan?
> >  
> > roslyn
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >
> > --- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@ <barbaragd@> wrote:
> >
> > From: barbaragd@ <barbaragd@>
> > Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
> > To:
> > Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM
> >
> >  
> >
> > Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III maligned reputation syndrome.
> >
> > GABRIELA VILCU
> > I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it, had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
> > After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar, I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my life.
> > Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding out even details which could seem insignificant.
> > Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that, upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages: impalement.
> > I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula, that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel, fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this research.
> >
> > I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
> > Barbara
> >
> > --- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , fayre rose <fayreroze@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > > > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise relationship.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female demon whose name escapes me just now.
> > >
> > > Kay
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Her cover is of a forest - and I've read the first chapter now and so far
it's a mix of modern and ancient fantasy. So I'm not sure what she will
write about Vlad - I must say, I've gone off the idea of finding out.
Doesn't sound as if this man deserves any research or vindication - always
accepting that the stories are at least partially true. (Are we really
sure??) But living in Romania under the recent communist regime, I doubt any
valid research or true understanding of anything was possible.



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of fayre rose
Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2011 6:05 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.





vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had
just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.

vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his
crown, working them to death. vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned
them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he
raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die
horridly now" motivational tactic.

vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction
of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe,
including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was
egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of
history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of
the carpathian creep.

it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does
she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to
glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a
child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and
the sultan?

roslyn




--- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> > wrote:

From: barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM



Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring
authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing
on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III
maligned reputation syndrome.

GABRIELA VILCU
I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar,
I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a
Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time
I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my
life.
Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to
organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.

I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
Barbara

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "oregon_katy"
<oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
wrote:
> >
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
relationship.
> >
>
>
> And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female
demon whose name escapes me just now.
>
> Kay
>

if you think trying to research under a communist regime was or could be difficult..try getting permission to research the vatican archives. many universities in the so called "free world" won't let you near their collections either, unless you are a student.
 
i wouldn't let anything that i or anyone else writes about any historical individual put you off of researching a that individual. imagine where richard iii's reputation would be, if people didn't dig past what has already been published.
 
loads of documents are secreted away or even worse destroyed to hide the truth.
 
roslyn

--- On Sat, 12/3/11, barbara <barbaragd@...> wrote:


From: barbara <barbaragd@...>
Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
To:
Received: Saturday, December 3, 2011, 2:03 AM



 



Her cover is of a forest - and I've read the first chapter now and so far
it's a mix of modern and ancient fantasy. So I'm not sure what she will
write about Vlad - I must say, I've gone off the idea of finding out.
Doesn't sound as if this man deserves any research or vindication - always
accepting that the stories are at least partially true. (Are we really
sure??) But living in Romania under the recent communist regime, I doubt any
valid research or true understanding of anything was possible.

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of fayre rose
Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2011 6:05 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.

vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had
just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.

vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his
crown, working them to death. vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned
them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he
raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die
horridly now" motivational tactic.

vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction
of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe,
including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was
egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of
history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of
the carpathian creep.

it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does
she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to
glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a
child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and
the sultan?

roslyn




--- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> > wrote:

From: barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM

Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring
authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing
on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III
maligned reputation syndrome.

GABRIELA VILCU
I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar,
I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a
Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time
I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my
life.
Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to
organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.

I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
Barbara

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "oregon_katy"
<oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
wrote:
> >
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
relationship.
> >
>
>
> And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female
demon whose name escapes me just now.
>
> Kay
>

A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.

I know what you mean about the Vatican too - Vatican bureaucracy possibly
being every bit as defensive, paranoid, suspicious and self obsessed as
communism probably was. But I haven't ever lived under a communistic regime
so can't really compare.

But I doubt if I'm in any position to research beyond my present passion
(RIII life and times) so I'll have to leave that to her. However, a study of
RIII has certainly taught me not to believe anything too readily or take any
reputation at face value.

Barbara









-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of fayre rose
Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2011 12:08 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.





if you think trying to research under a communist regime was or could be
difficult..try getting permission to research the vatican archives. many
universities in the so called "free world" won't let you near their
collections either, unless you are a student.

i wouldn't let anything that i or anyone else writes about any historical
individual put you off of researching a that individual. imagine where
richard iii's reputation would be, if people didn't dig past what has
already been published.

loads of documents are secreted away or even worse destroyed to hide the
truth.

roslyn

--- On Sat, 12/3/11, barbara <barbaragd@...
<mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> > wrote:

From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Received: Saturday, December 3, 2011, 2:03 AM



Her cover is of a forest - and I've read the first chapter now and so far
it's a mix of modern and ancient fantasy. So I'm not sure what she will
write about Vlad - I must say, I've gone off the idea of finding out.
Doesn't sound as if this man deserves any research or vindication - always
accepting that the stories are at least partially true. (Are we really
sure??) But living in Romania under the recent communist regime, I doubt any
valid research or true understanding of anything was possible.

-----Original Message-----
From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of fayre rose
Sent: Saturday, 3 December 2011 6:05 AM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.

vlad's reputation would not have been put forth as a bloated evil if he had
just stuck to impaling invading turks/muslims.

vlad murdered papal envoys, enslaved whole families of contenters to his
crown, working them to death. vlad locked "christians" in a room and burned
them alive. he terrorised his population, peasant and noble alike. sure he
raised armies to protect his domain, by using a "die fighting for me, or die
horridly now" motivational tactic.

vlad's evil reputation was earned. richard iii's is not. vlad's distruction
of christians was what horrified his contemporaries. no one was safe,
including papal priests (cardinals/bishops) sent from rome. vlad was
egalitarian in his cruelty. that is what plunged him into the forefront of
history. the balkans/romania/transylvania's reputation suffered because of
the carpathian creep.

it would be interesting to see the poster of the information's book. does
she cover exactly how vlad abused his own people? or is the book written to
glorify a man who stopped muslim invaders using a tactic he learned as a
child, while being a "guarantor hostage" in a treaty between his father and
the sultan?

roslyn

--- On Thu, 12/1/11, barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au>
<mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> > wrote:

From: barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<mailto:barbaragd%40y7mail.com>
<barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au>
<mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Received: Thursday, December 1, 2011, 5:39 PM

Just found this on www.authonomy.com (a brilliant website for any aspiring
authors or avid readers, by the way)and thought it might be worth passing
on. It seems poor old Vlad is suffering from the dreaded Richard III
maligned reputation syndrome.

GABRIELA VILCU
I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar,
I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a
Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time
I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my
life.
Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to
organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.

I found this of particular interest under the circumstances
Barbara

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "oregon_katy"
<oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , fayre rose <fayreroze@>
wrote:
> >
> > it is complicated, but the princes are if i correctly recall, in-law
relatives to vlad tepes, better known as dracula. this kinship is via their
mother, elizabeth woodville and her de luxembourg ancestry.
> > i have notes, i just not data entered it to give you the precise
relationship.
> >
>
>
> And remember, the Plantagenet line allegedly was descended from a female
demon whose name escapes me just now.
>
> Kay
>

On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:

> A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
> hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.

Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original post.
Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern Europe.

Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.

Paul

Hollywood is notoriously cowardly. How many remakes do we need of popular movies! I'd be happy to see Vlad reconsidered; Coppola was pointed in that general direction with his Dracula, and it went over quite well, making him sympathetic; likewise, that sequel to the Stoker book I mentioned...

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 

On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:

> A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
> hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.

Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original post.
Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern Europe.

Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.

Paul

Dear Paul - I recently joined authonomy.com - a Harper Collins website
designed to help new online writers. I found a comment from a young woman
who was shocked on visiting England to see her Romanian hero vilified. As it
rang bells with me - being a Ricardian - I posted her remarks. I only know
the basics regarding Vlad Tepes myself - but he certainly sounds unique in
more ways than one.

This is the young author's original post on authonomy:

GABRIELA VILCU
I was born in Romania, and I lived there, restricted by the rules and
interdictions of the communist regime, which, during the last part of it,
had become an unbearable dictatorship. In 1983, I escaped communism and I
settled in Italy, together with my family, but I never broke away from the
reality of my home country. In 1990, after the fall of communism, I returned
home, full of hope. Although I could say that it was then that my life had
actually started, as I managed to do a lot of things I had not even dreamt
about, I also had many disappointments regarding those who were leading our
country, and who were mainly former communist representatives. For me, it
was a period full of sacrifices and big efforts, as I remained widowed with
a girl of 15 years old, but I continued to study, even if it was a world
where intellectuals still remained a disadvantaged category.
After a Degree in Law and a successful admission exam at the Bucharest Bar,
I changed again the course of my life, applying and being accepted for a
Masters Degree in Media Law, in the UK, at Bournemouth University. The time
I spent in England was the most pleasant and interesting experience of my
life.
Many colleagues and teachers asked me to tell them stories about communism
and about the so-called revolution, and they were listening with great
fascination. I was surprised to find out how interested they were in finding
out even details which could seem insignificant.
Still during my time in England, I was strongly marked by the fact that,
upon the entrance in Madame Tussaud's Chamber of Horrors, I found the statue
of Vlad the Impaler, a Romanian monarch of the Middle Ages, who did so much
for Romania, during a time of repeated Ottoman invasions. He managed to
defeat the Turkish army, punishing the invaders with the same method they
applied themselves upon civilian populations of Romanian villages:
impalement.
I was so appalled by the analogy between this brave monarch, who managed to
organise such a powerful army in such a poor country, and Count Dracula,
that it determined me to focus my attention and to start carrying out
studies and research on that specific historical period, on the places and
legends linked to Vlad the Impaler, but also to Count Dracula. In my novel,
fiction intertwines with historical reality, which is the result of this
research.







-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2011 4:55 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.






On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:

> A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
> hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.

Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original
post.
Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places
associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs
vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern
Europe.

Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of
script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells
Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it
is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big
budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.

Paul

Hi Paul: I am the initiator of this thread and was wondering if anyone had written anything along the lines of the title to this thread. From what I am gleaning here, you post as if you have written a book or script on Richard III. Is this correct? If So, What is the title?

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:
>
> > A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
> > hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.
>
> Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original post.
> Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern Europe.
>
> Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.
>
> Paul
>

Your script has always sounded so interesting, Paul. I think one on Vlad
Tepes would be perfect Hollywood blockbuster material as well. But the
Hollywood suits are so timorous these days and want the sort of financial
guarantees that nothing original is likely to offer. Yet the worn out
sequels and repetitious copies are not bringing in the money these days -
apart from a small minority. Time they reconsidered their attitude. I also
get to see a few small independent productions which can occasionally be
excellent but are usually so pointless I wonder why they ever bothered.

I suppose it's still a case of who you know rather than the quality of your
work.

The very best of luck to you.

Barbara



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2011 4:55 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.






On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:

> A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
> hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.

Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original
post.
Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places
associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs
vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern
Europe.

Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of
script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells
Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it
is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big
budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.

Paul

I'm open to being persuaded toward a "nicer" Vlad...but may be because I know so little about Vlad, I am still much more committed to Richard's cause. However, a trip to Romania would be wonderful and a great way to exercise the brain beyond what I think I know and toward what I don't know I do not know.... Paul, it's a terrific idea. Take lots of photos!

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 6:52 PM
Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.


 
Your script has always sounded so interesting, Paul. I think one on Vlad
Tepes would be perfect Hollywood blockbuster material as well. But the
Hollywood suits are so timorous these days and want the sort of financial
guarantees that nothing original is likely to offer. Yet the worn out
sequels and repetitious copies are not bringing in the money these days -
apart from a small minority. Time they reconsidered their attitude. I also
get to see a few small independent productions which can occasionally be
excellent but are usually so pointless I wonder why they ever bothered.

I suppose it's still a case of who you know rather than the quality of your
work.

The very best of luck to you.

Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2011 4:55 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons
of Edward IV being evil.

On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:

> A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
> hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.

Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original
post.
Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places
associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs
vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern
Europe.

Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of
script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells
Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it
is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big
budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.

Paul

At Poenari, which was his chief stronghold, there are 1200 steps to climb to the top, where I am told the views are breathtaking. I wonder if I'll have any breathe left though after the climb!!
Fortunately it has so far escaped the ravages of the Dracula tourist brigade looking for vampires!
Dracula of course actually meant Dragon and was an order of chivalry.
Paul

On 8 Dec 2011, at 01:27, Judy Thomson wrote:

> I'm open to being persuaded toward a "nicer" Vlad...but may be because I know so little about Vlad, I am still much more committed to Richard's cause. However, a trip to Romania would be wonderful and a great way to exercise the brain beyond what I think I know and toward what I don't know I do not know.... Paul, it's a terrific idea. Take lots of photos!
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: barbara <barbaragd@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, December 7, 2011 6:52 PM
> Subject: RE: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
>
> Your script has always sounded so interesting, Paul. I think one on Vlad
> Tepes would be perfect Hollywood blockbuster material as well. But the
> Hollywood suits are so timorous these days and want the sort of financial
> guarantees that nothing original is likely to offer. Yet the worn out
> sequels and repetitious copies are not bringing in the money these days -
> apart from a small minority. Time they reconsidered their attitude. I also
> get to see a few small independent productions which can occasionally be
> excellent but are usually so pointless I wonder why they ever bothered.
>
> I suppose it's still a case of who you know rather than the quality of your
> work.
>
> The very best of luck to you.
>
> Barbara
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
> Bale
> Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2011 4:55 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Fictional story about the sons
> of Edward IV being evil.
>
> On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:
>
>> A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
>> hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.
>
> Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original
> post.
> Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places
> associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs
> vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern
> Europe.
>
> Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of
> script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells
> Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it
> is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big
> budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

We'd all like a stake in Vlad.

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:
>
> > A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
> > hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.
>
> Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original post.
> Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern Europe.
>
> Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.
>
> Paul
>

Ack!  I can't believe you said that!
Sheffe




>________________________________
> From: HI <hi.dung@...>
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 9:42 AM
>Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of Edward IV being evil.
>
>
> 
>We'd all like a stake in Vlad.
>
>--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:
>>
>> > A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about her
>> > hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.
>>
>> Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original post.
>> Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern Europe.
>>
>> Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought of script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine tells Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous supporters, it is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any chances with big budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these days.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
>
>
>
>

A brilliant remark and it made my day. Wish I'd thought of it!



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of HI
Sent: Sunday, 11 December 2011 1:42 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Fictional story about the sons of
Edward IV being evil.





We'd all like a stake in Vlad.

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Paul Trevor Bale
<paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 7 Dec 2011, at 02:39, barbara wrote:
>
> > A good point and exactly how I felt when this author first wrote about
her
> > hope of vindicating Vlad Tepes' reputation.
>
> Which writer are you talking about Barbara? Must have missed the original
post.
> Vlad is an interest of mine and I am about to go and visit all the places
associated with him in Romania. Mind you I am not so sure he needs
vindicating as he is still a hero in Romania and some other parts of Eastern
Europe.
>
> Interestingly enough, or at least it is to me, there is a highly thought
of script going the rounds in Hollywood telling his real story, as mine
tells Richard's. Like mine and in spite of some strong and famous
supporters, it is getting no buyers! The powers that be will not take any
chances with big budgets, or original, previously untested, subjects these
days.
>
> Paul
>