Shoreditch

Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore

doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@...> wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette


----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch



I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@...> wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

While not owing to Jane Shore, the bit about "drainage" is difficult to fully dispute. Wealthy homes may have even contributed to this downward slope, to carry away away the sewer. : ) Even today, a stroll around the London meet market could use a dose of Febreze....

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch


 
Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@...> wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative? 

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy 
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch


 
Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@...> wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

Judy  you could try the Portsoken Ward  outside the London wall east beyond The Tower  slums and tanneries. (Prominent in my next book.)

Good luck,

Barbara



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 1:57 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Shoreditch





Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative?

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@... <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch



Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@... <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

Barbara, you're a Peach! Thanks! It's one of those fictional details that you want right, even if most people won't care.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch


 
Judy  you could try the Portsoken Ward  outside the London wall east beyond The Tower  slums and tanneries. (Prominent in my next book.)

Good luck,

Barbara

From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 1:57 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative?

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@... <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@... <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

You're welcome  The Portsoken Ward doesn't exist anymore, but a short walk east through the Aldgate got you there in the 15th century  and you knew you were going in the right direction because you smelled it well before getting there! Good luck.



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 7:23 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Shoreditch





Barbara, you're a Peach! Thanks! It's one of those fictional details that you want right, even if most people won't care.

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch



Judy  you could try the Portsoken Ward  outside the London wall east beyond The Tower  slums and tanneries. (Prominent in my next book.)

Good luck,

Barbara

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 1:57 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative?

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@... <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@... <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

Thanks, Barbara. And might the notorious "Houndsditch" be adjacent to or part of Portsoken? Swear the words on my maps keep shrinking (couldn't be my eyesight, right?), but I've some dim memory of HD bordering on Aldgate, also. Either or both together would fit the bill. The aroma seems especially promising, and the names evoke low-rent areas (i.e., not the most choice locations for July holidays).

(Oh, and tempt me a little with your next book...please! please!)

Judy 
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch


 
You're welcome  The Portsoken Ward doesn't exist anymore, but a short walk east through the Aldgate got you there in the 15th century  and you knew you were going in the right direction because you smelled it well before getting there! Good luck.

From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 7:23 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Barbara, you're a Peach! Thanks! It's one of those fictional details that you want right, even if most people won't care.

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch

Judy  you could try the Portsoken Ward  outside the London wall east beyond The Tower  slums and tanneries. (Prominent in my next book.)

Good luck,

Barbara

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 1:57 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative?

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@... <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@... <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

Now that's an invitation I can't resist --- I have a huge love and fascination for medieval London, and my new book is set very firmly against that background  1482/3 and all the political turmoil of those years. I am adamant about my fiction being firmly based on absolutely accurate fact.

My eyesight is also on a slippery slope but as far as I know, Houndsditch encompassed the London ditch and rubbish dump (edging the grounds of the Holy Trinity Priory) approachable through the Aldgate and then following the wall immediately north  whereas the Portsoken Ward was reached by following Aldgate Street due east. Yes, low rent indeed, and the fumes of the tanneries which were kept some distance beyond the London ditch since tanning leather was forbidden within any city limits because of the stench.

My passion for researching medieval London set me off writing my earlier book SATIN CINNABAR (1485) and I find out a little more whenever possible  there's so much there to discover.

Have fun!



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 9:41 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Shoreditch





Thanks, Barbara. And might the notorious "Houndsditch" be adjacent to or part of Portsoken? Swear the words on my maps keep shrinking (couldn't be my eyesight, right?), but I've some dim memory of HD bordering on Aldgate, also. Either or both together would fit the bill. The aroma seems especially promising, and the names evoke low-rent areas (i.e., not the most choice locations for July holidays).

(Oh, and tempt me a little with your next book...please! please!)

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch



You're welcome  The Portsoken Ward doesn't exist anymore, but a short walk east through the Aldgate got you there in the 15th century  and you knew you were going in the right direction because you smelled it well before getting there! Good luck.

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 7:23 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Barbara, you're a Peach! Thanks! It's one of those fictional details that you want right, even if most people won't care.

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch

Judy  you could try the Portsoken Ward  outside the London wall east beyond The Tower  slums and tanneries. (Prominent in my next book.)

Good luck,

Barbara

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 1:57 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative?

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@... <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@... <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

This is really interesting to me because I work in Gracechurch Street and every day as I walk back to the station, up Bishopsgate, I pass Houndsditch on my right!  I also used to work near Aldgate (near Portsoken Street) and the street names are so reminiscent of the medieval past, although of course now it's almost shiny high rise glass buildings.

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012, 1:10
Subject: RE: Shoreditch


 
Now that's an invitation I can't resist --- I have a huge love and fascination for medieval London, and my new book is set very firmly against that background  1482/3 and all the political turmoil of those years. I am adamant about my fiction being firmly based on absolutely accurate fact.

My eyesight is also on a slippery slope but as far as I know, Houndsditch encompassed the London ditch and rubbish dump (edging the grounds of the Holy Trinity Priory) approachable through the Aldgate and then following the wall immediately north  whereas the Portsoken Ward was reached by following Aldgate Street due east. Yes, low rent indeed, and the fumes of the tanneries which were kept some distance beyond the London ditch since tanning leather was forbidden within any city limits because of the stench.

My passion for researching medieval London set me off writing my earlier book SATIN CINNABAR (1485) and I find out a little more whenever possible  there's so much there to discover.

Have fun!

From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 9:41 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Thanks, Barbara. And might the notorious "Houndsditch" be adjacent to or part of Portsoken? Swear the words on my maps keep shrinking (couldn't be my eyesight, right?), but I've some dim memory of HD bordering on Aldgate, also. Either or both together would fit the bill. The aroma seems especially promising, and the names evoke low-rent areas (i.e., not the most choice locations for July holidays).

(Oh, and tempt me a little with your next book...please! please!)

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch

You're welcome  The Portsoken Ward doesn't exist anymore, but a short walk east through the Aldgate got you there in the 15th century  and you knew you were going in the right direction because you smelled it well before getting there! Good luck.

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 7:23 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Barbara, you're a Peach! Thanks! It's one of those fictional details that you want right, even if most people won't care.

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch

Judy  you could try the Portsoken Ward  outside the London wall east beyond The Tower  slums and tanneries. (Prominent in my next book.)

Good luck,

Barbara

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 1:57 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative?

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@... <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@... <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>

So you work in a fascinating area, Liz. Gracechurch (or Grasschurch) Street is so close to where Crosby Hall stood  Richard's London home for some time  just up the road from you at the beginning of Bishopsgate. Sadly it's no longer there, but a small part of it remains having been rather gaudily restored, renamed a Tudor mansion (ironic, I suppose) and transferred to the Embankment. The stocks stood not far from you as well  probably holding some shopkeeper stuck there for having tried to cheat his customers  and collecting the ridicule and abuse of passers-by. The City of London is small, and everything is gloriously close by  even if nothing resembles the past any longer. But there are a few little streets (especially further down towards the river) where the cobbles remain, with that tell-tale central gutter  luckily no longer clogged with the effluent and refuse from the locals' chamber pots!

You work in a magical reminder of that fascinating past  even if only the names remain to remind us. Wave to Crosby's for me.



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Monday, 11 June 2012 1:30 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Shoreditch





This is really interesting to me because I work in Gracechurch Street and every day as I walk back to the station, up Bishopsgate, I pass Houndsditch on my right! I also used to work near Aldgate (near Portsoken Street) and the street names are so reminiscent of the medieval past, although of course now it's almost shiny high rise glass buildings.

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012, 1:10
Subject: RE: Shoreditch


Now that's an invitation I can't resist --- I have a huge love and fascination for medieval London, and my new book is set very firmly against that background  1482/3 and all the political turmoil of those years. I am adamant about my fiction being firmly based on absolutely accurate fact.

My eyesight is also on a slippery slope but as far as I know, Houndsditch encompassed the London ditch and rubbish dump (edging the grounds of the Holy Trinity Priory) approachable through the Aldgate and then following the wall immediately north  whereas the Portsoken Ward was reached by following Aldgate Street due east. Yes, low rent indeed, and the fumes of the tanneries which were kept some distance beyond the London ditch since tanning leather was forbidden within any city limits because of the stench.

My passion for researching medieval London set me off writing my earlier book SATIN CINNABAR (1485) and I find out a little more whenever possible  there's so much there to discover.

Have fun!

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 9:41 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Thanks, Barbara. And might the notorious "Houndsditch" be adjacent to or part of Portsoken? Swear the words on my maps keep shrinking (couldn't be my eyesight, right?), but I've some dim memory of HD bordering on Aldgate, also. Either or both together would fit the bill. The aroma seems especially promising, and the names evoke low-rent areas (i.e., not the most choice locations for July holidays).

(Oh, and tempt me a little with your next book...please! please!)

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch

You're welcome  The Portsoken Ward doesn't exist anymore, but a short walk east through the Aldgate got you there in the 15th century  and you knew you were going in the right direction because you smelled it well before getting there! Good luck.

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 7:23 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Barbara, you're a Peach! Thanks! It's one of those fictional details that you want right, even if most people won't care.

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: barbara <barbaragd@... <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> <mailto:barbaragd%40activ8.net.au> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2012 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Shoreditch

Judy  you could try the Portsoken Ward  outside the London wall east beyond The Tower  slums and tanneries. (Prominent in my next book.)

Good luck,

Barbara

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Thomson
Sent: Sunday, 10 June 2012 1:57 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Dear Annette et al., if you've a moment to spare, is there a good "Shoreditch" alternative?

Any dodgy, well-known London locale will do; it's that connotation I need. I've already referenced "South'erk Stews" and the "Shambles" in other contexts - this one ought to be some notoriously poor and seedy place, frequented by beggars in Richard's time. Some infamous, stinky garbage dump? (Learning Shoreditch was erroneous was a big disappointment; the name conjures a terrific image - too bad it's not right. But there are bound to have been some genuine icky - and nasty sounding - places, where Londoners might frown and say: "I'd rather have a spike driven through my skull than spend an hour in ____."

Many thanks in advance,
Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Annette Carson <email@... <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> <mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2012 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

Brewer's (1999 edition, page 1080) cites this reference to Shoreditch as a legend deriving from an eighteenth-century ballad. "In fact", says the entry, "it is probably 'the ditch draining the slope'." Stow agrees that the legend is erroneous, saying that Shoreditch was named after "a wealthy and worshipful family. Sir John Shoreditch was lord of a manor called Shoreditch long before Mistress Jane Shore was born. Shoreditch Church was in this manor and has its name from it."

We should also remember that Richard III freely gave permission for Elizabeth ("Jane") Shore, nee Lambert, to marry the King's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. So if she really did end up in penury as Thomas More would have us believe, it had nothing to do with her treatment at Richard's hands.

She is said to have died in about 1532, but I have never come across any information about her burial. Her name at the time was, of course, Elizabeth Lynom. Perhaps the best approach would be to find out, if possible, where Thomas Lynom was laid to rest.
Regards, Annette

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Trump
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Shoreditch

I understand her memorial brass is at Hinxworth, but not sure she is actually buried at same place

Regards

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

On 2 Jun 2012, at 15:40, "HI" <hi.dung@... <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> <mailto:hi.dung%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Thomas More, not a favourite amongst Ricardians, gave a rather sad tale about Jane Shore, former mistress to Edward IV and Hastings, being left penurious and old `for still she lives', he said. Her body was reputedly found in a ditch, hence Shoreditch.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Shore
>
> doesn't say anything about where she was buried. Does anyone know?
>
>