Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine

Re. Jenner and smallpox vaccine:
Jenner had better public relations than an earlier vaccine experimenter, a fashionable medical practice and a London address. Earlier vaccine experiments were made by Benjamin Jesty, a farmer of Yetminster, Dorset (near Sherborne), whose vaccine came close to killing his wife. A search for <Benjamin Jesty> will reveal all.

Robert Fripp
(A Dorset booster)

Right you are, Robert. I used the more familiar Jenner so people might recognize it readily. Even before Jesty, there were probably some savvy milk maids who noticed how cow pox seemed to preclude its deadlier  "cousin."

How many Old Wives slapped moldy bread on festering wounds long before Fleming figured things out?

I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?" 

What if, for example, Da Vinci had gone to England (not Milan) in 1482? Maybe hung out with Caxton? Illustrated a couple of nifty books? F. Vegetius' De Re Militari, for instance

And later Richard's army had greeted the Welshman at Redemore in armoured "tanks"? 

And imagine those nice (and accurate) portraits hanging around Westminster palace....

Judy : )
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: rspfripp <r_fripp@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 12:04 PM
Subject: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine


 
Re. Jenner and smallpox vaccine:
Jenner had better public relations than an earlier vaccine experimenter, a fashionable medical practice and a London address. Earlier vaccine experiments were made by Benjamin Jesty, a farmer of Yetminster, Dorset (near Sherborne), whose vaccine came close to killing his wife. A search for <Benjamin Jesty> will reveal all.

Robert Fripp
(A Dorset booster)

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Right you are, Robert. I used the more familiar Jenner so people might recognize it readily. Even before Jesty, there were probably some savvy milk maids who noticed how cow pox seemed to preclude its deadlier  "cousin."
>
> How many Old Wives slapped moldy bread on festering wounds long before Fleming figured things out?
>
> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"

Me, too, Judy.

Here is one of my favorites:

Before Columbus managed to get his voyage to find a new route to the Far East backed by Ferdinand and Isabella, one of his brothers had an appointment with Henry VII to ask him to finance the exploration. Henry did not keep the appointment. What if Richard, having prevailed at Bosworth, was on the throne? I think he might have done so if the funds were available.

Kay

--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Right you are, Robert. I used the more familiar Jenner so people might recognize it readily. Even before Jesty, there were probably some savvy milk maids who noticed how cow pox seemed to preclude its deadlier  "cousin."
> >
> > How many Old Wives slapped moldy bread on festering wounds long before Fleming figured things out?
> >
> > I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"
>
> Me, too, Judy.
>
> Here is one of my favorites:
>
> Before Columbus managed to get his voyage to find a new route to the Far East backed by Ferdinand and Isabella, one of his brothers had an appointment with Henry VII to ask him to finance the exploration. Henry did not keep the appointment. What if Richard, having prevailed at Bosworth, was on the throne? I think he might have done so if the funds were available.
>
> Kay
>
I'm absolutely sure that he would have Katy. I believe that Richard very was a "modern" King for his time. I was very privileged to attend the wedding of some friends at the chapel in the Palace of Westminster recently and it made me remember that on 6 July 1483 in Westminster Hall Richard had exorted his judges that all his citizens were entitiled to a fair trial. This was the beginning of trial by jury. I can't think of another medieval King who would have instigated this.

Love it!!! 

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine


 


--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Right you are, Robert. I used the more familiar Jenner so people might recognize it readily. Even before Jesty, there were probably some savvy milk maids who noticed how cow pox seemed to preclude its deadlier  "cousin."
>
> How many Old Wives slapped moldy bread on festering wounds long before Fleming figured things out?
>
> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"

Me, too, Judy.

Here is one of my favorites:

Before Columbus managed to get his voyage to find a new route to the Far East backed by Ferdinand and Isabella, one of his brothers had an appointment with Henry VII to ask him to finance the exploration. Henry did not keep the appointment. What if Richard, having prevailed at Bosworth, was on the throne? I think he might have done so if the funds were available.

Kay

Holy Synchronicity, Batman!

Just minutes before reading your Email, I was inserting the following at the head of a chapter:

...justly
and duly administer the laws without delay or favor [dispensing justice],
indifferently to every person, as well as to poor as to rich&
 
 - King Richard III, Address at Westminster,
1483

No joke, Ricard1an! Way cool, eh?

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine


 


--- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Right you are, Robert. I used the more familiar Jenner so people might recognize it readily. Even before Jesty, there were probably some savvy milk maids who noticed how cow pox seemed to preclude its deadlier  "cousin."
> >
> > How many Old Wives slapped moldy bread on festering wounds long before Fleming figured things out?
> >
> > I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"
>
> Me, too, Judy.
>
> Here is one of my favorites:
>
> Before Columbus managed to get his voyage to find a new route to the Far East backed by Ferdinand and Isabella, one of his brothers had an appointment with Henry VII to ask him to finance the exploration. Henry did not keep the appointment. What if Richard, having prevailed at Bosworth, was on the throne? I think he might have done so if the funds were available.
>
> Kay
>
I'm absolutely sure that he would have Katy. I believe that Richard very was a "modern" King for his time. I was very privileged to attend the wedding of some friends at the chapel in the Palace of Westminster recently and it made me remember that on 6 July 1483 in Westminster Hall Richard had exorted his judges that all his citizens were entitiled to a fair trial. This was the beginning of trial by jury. I can't think of another medieval King who would have instigated this.

That's amazing Judy. Great minds think alike!!

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Holy Synchronicity, Batman!
>
> Just minutes before reading your Email, I was inserting the following at the head of a chapter:
>
> ...justly
> and duly administer the laws without delay or favor [dispensing justice],
> indifferently to every person, as well as to poor as to rich…
>  
>  - King Richard III, Address at Westminster,
> 1483
>
> No joke, Ricard1an! Way cool, eh?
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, June 4, 2012 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine
>
>
>  
>
>
> --- In , "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Right you are, Robert. I used the more familiar Jenner so people might recognize it readily. Even before Jesty, there were probably some savvy milk maids who noticed how cow pox seemed to preclude its deadlier  "cousin."
> > >
> > > How many Old Wives slapped moldy bread on festering wounds long before Fleming figured things out?
> > >
> > > I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"
> >
> > Me, too, Judy.
> >
> > Here is one of my favorites:
> >
> > Before Columbus managed to get his voyage to find a new route to the Far East backed by Ferdinand and Isabella, one of his brothers had an appointment with Henry VII to ask him to finance the exploration. Henry did not keep the appointment. What if Richard, having prevailed at Bosworth, was on the throne? I think he might have done so if the funds were available.
> >
> > Kay
> >
> I'm absolutely sure that he would have Katy. I believe that Richard very was a "modern" King for his time. I was very privileged to attend the wedding of some friends at the chapel in the Palace of Westminster recently and it made me remember that on 6 July 1483 in Westminster Hall Richard had exorted his judges that all his citizens were entitiled to a fair trial. This was the beginning of trial by jury. I can't think of another medieval King who would have instigated this.
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?" 



What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?

Kay

A distinct possibility, when you consider some of those ultra pointy-toed sabatons!

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: oregon_katy <oregon_katy@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine


 


--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?" 

What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?

Kay

Or what if Richard's men had found and captured Tudor the night before the battle when he went wandering and got lost?
Paul

On 5 Jun 2012, at 17:52, oregon_katy wrote:

>
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>>
>> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"Â
>
>
>
> What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?
>
> Kay
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

That´s a fascinating point to ponder upon. But I think it won´t have changed too much. Unless the capture of Henry Tudor would have had a deep psychologic effect on the inimical troops and prevented William Stanley from running over to the enemy. This might have been possible. On the other hand, events were already in motion and the political stirrings would not easily have calmed down. I think if Tudor had been lost the battle would not have been
dismissed but someone would have taken over his leaders position.

But I have to read more about the battle and it´s preceding events to be more sure about it, as I had only a rough overlook on the whole.
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> Or what if Richard's men had found and captured Tudor the night before the battle when he went wandering and got lost?
> Paul
>
> On 5 Jun 2012, at 17:52, oregon_katy wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"Â
> >
> >
> >
> > What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?
> >
> > Kay
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

From everything I've read, Henry and his myrmidons were the key disaffected players. Without him, it's unlikely anyone would have popped up soon after....

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: marionziemke <marionziemke@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine


 

That´s a fascinating point to ponder upon. But I think it won´t have changed too much. Unless the capture of Henry Tudor would have had a deep psychologic effect on the inimical troops and prevented William Stanley from running over to the enemy. This might have been possible. On the other hand, events were already in motion and the political stirrings would not easily have calmed down. I think if Tudor had been lost the battle would not have been
dismissed but someone would have taken over his leaders position.

But I have to read more about the battle and it´s preceding events to be more sure about it, as I had only a rough overlook on the whole.
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> Or what if Richard's men had found and captured Tudor the night before the battle when he went wandering and got lost?
> Paul
>
> On 5 Jun 2012, at 17:52, oregon_katy wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"Â
> >
> >
> >
> > What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?
> >
> > Kay
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

True, Judy, and it should also be remembered that the backbone of the army opposing Richard III was a foreign invading force recruited with French money by Henry Tudor's backers in France. They were mercenaries with no personal commitment to the battle, who had been led to believe they were fighting for the 'rightful' king of England. Maybe 1,500-2,000 hopeful Welsh recruits joined the army as it made its way through Wales, but they could not have withstood Richard's forces if the mercenaries had voted with their feet. Furthermore, if any of Henry's troops had managed to communicate with the locals and learn anything on their march to Bosworth, it would have been that Henry Tudor was certainly not the 'Henricus Rex' he signed himself, which would not have offered them much encouragement to pursue his cause in his absence.

Henry Tudor's chief general on the field was the attainted Earl of Oxford, who pretended no claim to the throne and was little known in England, having only recently escaped from Hammes castle where he'd been banged up for the better part of the previous decade. He was nobody's good lord, commanded no retinue and offered no personal rallying point. Although a formidable fighting man, he didn't provide a credible alternative to the existing and accepted King Richard.

As for the Stanley family, I think we can discount any move by them against Richard if Henry Tudor was in the hands of the authorities. Basically the Stanleys were the only party who had a dog in the fight (apologies for the analogy), and once that dog was removed they would have played it safe, especially if the matriarch Margaret Beaufort had felt that she might have saved her son's life that way.

I really and truly know of no events or political stirrings in England in 1485 that might have encouraged a home-based revolt against Richard, which I think you'll agree is evidenced by the fact that no English troops rallied to Tudor's banner as he advanced, nor any members of the English nobility not already committed. By 'already committed' I mean anti-Yorkists and opponents of Richard whose opposition dated from the events of 1483, and who had openly joined the Tudor faction. The actions of the Stanleys (and the likely inaction of Northumberland) can properly be classed as opportunism on the battlefield.

Paul's idea would certainly have saved England and the English a lot of bloodshed and destruction, especially if Richard married his Lancastrian Portuguese princess and produced heirs. If they were childless, who knows .... ?
Regards, Annette


----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine



From everything I've read, Henry and his myrmidons were the key disaffected players. Without him, it's unlikely anyone would have popped up soon after....

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: marionziemke <marionziemke@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine




That´s a fascinating point to ponder upon. But I think it won´t have changed too much. Unless the capture of Henry Tudor would have had a deep psychologic effect on the inimical troops and prevented William Stanley from running over to the enemy. This might have been possible. On the other hand, events were already in motion and the political stirrings would not easily have calmed down. I think if Tudor had been lost the battle would not have been
dismissed but someone would have taken over his leaders position.

But I have to read more about the battle and it´s preceding events to be more sure about it, as I had only a rough overlook on the whole.
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
> Or what if Richard's men had found and captured Tudor the night before the battle when he went wandering and got lost?
> Paul
>
> On 5 Jun 2012, at 17:52, oregon_katy wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"Â
> >
> >
> >
> > What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?
> >
> > Kay
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

There was no-one else to take the lead, and there would have been no battle.
Paul


On 6 Jun 2012, at 15:23, marionziemke wrote:

>
> That´s a fascinating point to ponder upon. But I think it won´t have changed too much. Unless the capture of Henry Tudor would have had a deep psychologic effect on the inimical troops and prevented William Stanley from running over to the enemy. This might have been possible. On the other hand, events were already in motion and the political stirrings would not easily have calmed down. I think if Tudor had been lost the battle would not have been
> dismissed but someone would have taken over his leaders position.
>
> But I have to read more about the battle and it´s preceding events to be more sure about it, as I had only a rough overlook on the whole.
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>>
>> Or what if Richard's men had found and captured Tudor the night before the battle when he went wandering and got lost?
>> Paul
>>
>> On 5 Jun 2012, at 17:52, oregon_katy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"Â
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?
>>>
>>> Kay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Paul, you're right....
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, June 7, 2012 5:38 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Responding re. Jenner and small pox vaccine


 
There was no-one else to take the lead, and there would have been no battle.
Paul

On 6 Jun 2012, at 15:23, marionziemke wrote:

>
> That´s a fascinating point to ponder upon. But I think it won´t have changed too much. Unless the capture of Henry Tudor would have had a deep psychologic effect on the inimical troops and prevented William Stanley from running over to the enemy. This might have been possible. On the other hand, events were already in motion and the political stirrings would not easily have calmed down. I think if Tudor had been lost the battle would not have been
> dismissed but someone would have taken over his leaders position.
>
> But I have to read more about the battle and it´s preceding events to be more sure about it, as I had only a rough overlook on the whole.
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>>
>> Or what if Richard's men had found and captured Tudor the night before the battle when he went wandering and got lost?
>> Paul
>>
>> On 5 Jun 2012, at 17:52, oregon_katy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have always loved indulging in the "What&only ifs?"Â
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What if Henry Tudor's standard-bearer, William Brandon, had tripped over his own feet and not managed to get in Richard's way as he reached Tudor in that wonderfully-brave full-on charge?
>>>
>>> Kay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!