Kendall's REAL source for saying Stallworth said Russel not wanted
Kendall's REAL source for saying Stallworth said Russel not wanted
2003-01-19 00:08:19
I am SLOWLY reading those English Historical Journal articles.
Mostly on the bus. Only place I have time at the moment.
Alison Hanham's article in EHR, 1972, turns out to be where Ross
actually got the idea that Stallworth said John Russel was reluctant
to be chancellor. In fact, Hanham's article strongly appears to be
where Ross got much, as she has an only slightly more logical and
less vituperative attitude, but she does fully present her evidence.
Consistent with his manic depressive style is the notion that Ross
simply lacked sufficient patience to present the full chain of his
sources on an idea that supported something so OBVIOUS to him.
When I posted the full contents of the two Stonor letters, I
mentioned that I was unable to translate some of it, and I doubt
other people found it much easier. Hanham did not have the same
problem, though I can't agree with her reasoning.
"It is worth observing, however, that carefully positioned between
factual statements in his letter are two sentences that to a
contemporary reader would carry unmistakale innuendo. The remark
that the troops had been summoned 'to what intent I knowe note but to
kep the peas' is a guarded but clear indication that the writer
himself does not vouch for the reason quoted. Superficially, 'my
lord haith mysche besynes, and more then he is content withall, yf
any other ways wold be tayn' can be taken as a rather pedestrian
comment that Russell is overburdened with work and took office
reluctantly. The wording chosen, however, has the over-riding
connotation: 'he has a great many duties, some of whih he is not at
all happy abaout, but no other course seems possible.' (In a
footnote, Hanham writes that the word "content" had a much stronger
meaning then than it does now, and example is the mercers not content
with a scheme to destroy the mercers' monopoly of trade in
Flanders.) The letter would be carried by a private messenger, who
could probably elaborate on this hint that the chancellor was greatly
disturbed by the turn of events. It was certainly unwise, and
probably unnecessary, to be more explicit in writing. We cannot be
sure how much Russell, or Stallworth himself, knew about Richard's
next move at this point, but it is difficult to avoid deducing that
Ruseel had realized by now that the princes were to be deposed, adn
felt forced to acquiesce against his will."
Well, now we know where Ross got it. Those were two of the sentences
that I couldn't translate, except to get the general sense that
Russell wasn't feeling happy - and I still don't know where Hanham is
getting part of it. It may have been difficult for Hanham and Ross
to avoid deducing that, but I find it difficult to arrive at the
conclusion at which they did.
The words don't carry innuendo to me, and I don't think they did to
the contemporary reader. Troops being scheduled to arrive, I don't
know why but to keep the peace doesn't look sarcastic to me; more a
reflection of the question that must have been on Londoner's minds,
and more than likely a forthright statement as to why he thought they
had really been summoned, which is consistent with why most people
who don't think Richard murdered the princes thinks he summoned them.
It is interesting that Ross didn't say anything about simple overwork
being a reason why Russell didn't want to be chancellor.
I don't kow what the words "besynes" and "tayn" mean, and their
meaning is crucial, though in context I think it is possible they
mean besides and taken, which seems to be how Hanham takes them.
Stallworth does make it very clear that he is feeling troubled by the
path events have taken, and he appears to me to convey that Russel is
feeling troubled too, and also a sense that Russel can't think
whatever other course would be a good idea to follow but to make
Richard king. I am reading that idea into it, but so does Penman.
Hanham, in my opinion, makes a convoluted argument and fails, in
favor of hte notion that Ricahrd plotted to be king, noone knew that
yet when he took the other prince to the tower and when he arrested
the plotters and killed Hastings - but Russell had DEDUCED that
Richard was "plotting" to take the throne.
I don't think that was concealed, or not concealed with the idea
toward a plot. I think Penman is right in arguing that Ricahrd was
dealing with this plot at about the same time that he learned of
Stillwhosit's knowledge. I also think Penman is right in arguing
that the plot alone could have suggested to Richard that he had
better have troops, though that hadn't induced Richard to call for
scary numbers of troops before, and Penman really argues that Richard
actually realized that when he dealt with the screws Stillwhosit's
revelation threw into the situation and claimed the throne, together
with the discovery of the plot, he would REALLY need troops to keep
th epeace.
From what I am seeing, historians and analyists of the Ricahrd III
situation alike appear agreed that the majority of hte council, who
were clergy adn civil servants, wanted peace and order and based
their decisions at any given time on what they thought would assure
that. First they opposed Woodville power because of the obvious
civil turmoil that would cause. Gradually they became scared and
worried that Richard also would lead to problems. Some writers
abaout Richard and aboaut the Wars of the Roses argue that some of
Richard's actions, particularly the death of Hastings, scared them.
They must have been discussing why the troops.
But I don't see anything about Russell having been reluctant to take
the job. Nor does it say he is overworked, though it appears to say
he is worried!
It is pretty clear that Russell and much of the rest of the council,
as well as the leaders of the city of London, supported Richard FOR
KING for a time, because they thought the country needed an adult and
a not Woodille at the helm. They may have already been concerned
about some things Richard did, and some argues this is about when a
sea change in their feelings began.
But the fear seems to be a more general one of civil disorder. These
were civil servants; they were primarily concerned with peace, and
they were also probably somewhat cowardly of character, because such
people usually are. Sicne they did support Richard for king, it
makes no sense to think they specifically feared he was plotting to
take the throne.
By the way, I just paid my Richard III Society dues.
Dora
Mostly on the bus. Only place I have time at the moment.
Alison Hanham's article in EHR, 1972, turns out to be where Ross
actually got the idea that Stallworth said John Russel was reluctant
to be chancellor. In fact, Hanham's article strongly appears to be
where Ross got much, as she has an only slightly more logical and
less vituperative attitude, but she does fully present her evidence.
Consistent with his manic depressive style is the notion that Ross
simply lacked sufficient patience to present the full chain of his
sources on an idea that supported something so OBVIOUS to him.
When I posted the full contents of the two Stonor letters, I
mentioned that I was unable to translate some of it, and I doubt
other people found it much easier. Hanham did not have the same
problem, though I can't agree with her reasoning.
"It is worth observing, however, that carefully positioned between
factual statements in his letter are two sentences that to a
contemporary reader would carry unmistakale innuendo. The remark
that the troops had been summoned 'to what intent I knowe note but to
kep the peas' is a guarded but clear indication that the writer
himself does not vouch for the reason quoted. Superficially, 'my
lord haith mysche besynes, and more then he is content withall, yf
any other ways wold be tayn' can be taken as a rather pedestrian
comment that Russell is overburdened with work and took office
reluctantly. The wording chosen, however, has the over-riding
connotation: 'he has a great many duties, some of whih he is not at
all happy abaout, but no other course seems possible.' (In a
footnote, Hanham writes that the word "content" had a much stronger
meaning then than it does now, and example is the mercers not content
with a scheme to destroy the mercers' monopoly of trade in
Flanders.) The letter would be carried by a private messenger, who
could probably elaborate on this hint that the chancellor was greatly
disturbed by the turn of events. It was certainly unwise, and
probably unnecessary, to be more explicit in writing. We cannot be
sure how much Russell, or Stallworth himself, knew about Richard's
next move at this point, but it is difficult to avoid deducing that
Ruseel had realized by now that the princes were to be deposed, adn
felt forced to acquiesce against his will."
Well, now we know where Ross got it. Those were two of the sentences
that I couldn't translate, except to get the general sense that
Russell wasn't feeling happy - and I still don't know where Hanham is
getting part of it. It may have been difficult for Hanham and Ross
to avoid deducing that, but I find it difficult to arrive at the
conclusion at which they did.
The words don't carry innuendo to me, and I don't think they did to
the contemporary reader. Troops being scheduled to arrive, I don't
know why but to keep the peace doesn't look sarcastic to me; more a
reflection of the question that must have been on Londoner's minds,
and more than likely a forthright statement as to why he thought they
had really been summoned, which is consistent with why most people
who don't think Richard murdered the princes thinks he summoned them.
It is interesting that Ross didn't say anything about simple overwork
being a reason why Russell didn't want to be chancellor.
I don't kow what the words "besynes" and "tayn" mean, and their
meaning is crucial, though in context I think it is possible they
mean besides and taken, which seems to be how Hanham takes them.
Stallworth does make it very clear that he is feeling troubled by the
path events have taken, and he appears to me to convey that Russel is
feeling troubled too, and also a sense that Russel can't think
whatever other course would be a good idea to follow but to make
Richard king. I am reading that idea into it, but so does Penman.
Hanham, in my opinion, makes a convoluted argument and fails, in
favor of hte notion that Ricahrd plotted to be king, noone knew that
yet when he took the other prince to the tower and when he arrested
the plotters and killed Hastings - but Russell had DEDUCED that
Richard was "plotting" to take the throne.
I don't think that was concealed, or not concealed with the idea
toward a plot. I think Penman is right in arguing that Ricahrd was
dealing with this plot at about the same time that he learned of
Stillwhosit's knowledge. I also think Penman is right in arguing
that the plot alone could have suggested to Richard that he had
better have troops, though that hadn't induced Richard to call for
scary numbers of troops before, and Penman really argues that Richard
actually realized that when he dealt with the screws Stillwhosit's
revelation threw into the situation and claimed the throne, together
with the discovery of the plot, he would REALLY need troops to keep
th epeace.
From what I am seeing, historians and analyists of the Ricahrd III
situation alike appear agreed that the majority of hte council, who
were clergy adn civil servants, wanted peace and order and based
their decisions at any given time on what they thought would assure
that. First they opposed Woodville power because of the obvious
civil turmoil that would cause. Gradually they became scared and
worried that Richard also would lead to problems. Some writers
abaout Richard and aboaut the Wars of the Roses argue that some of
Richard's actions, particularly the death of Hastings, scared them.
They must have been discussing why the troops.
But I don't see anything about Russell having been reluctant to take
the job. Nor does it say he is overworked, though it appears to say
he is worried!
It is pretty clear that Russell and much of the rest of the council,
as well as the leaders of the city of London, supported Richard FOR
KING for a time, because they thought the country needed an adult and
a not Woodille at the helm. They may have already been concerned
about some things Richard did, and some argues this is about when a
sea change in their feelings began.
But the fear seems to be a more general one of civil disorder. These
were civil servants; they were primarily concerned with peace, and
they were also probably somewhat cowardly of character, because such
people usually are. Sicne they did support Richard for king, it
makes no sense to think they specifically feared he was plotting to
take the throne.
By the way, I just paid my Richard III Society dues.
Dora