Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 11:24:28
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
or help. Thanks!
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
or help. Thanks!
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 12:08:28
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others. Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content, it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se, but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
or help. Thanks!
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others. Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content, it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se, but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
or help. Thanks!
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 12:17:19
gem0571
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 12:20:22
Thank you very much for the response! Yes, it's specifically the More "History" for the style, although I wasn't aware the English versions weren't translations (oops). There's a copy of the Alison Hanham book you recommended in the school library (not Potter unfortunately) so I'll have a look. Thanks again!
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with Latin/English juxtaposed.
>
> However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three English, the latter not being translations of the former.
>
> The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold of!
>
> For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others. Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content, it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se, but a very good read.
> Best of luck!
> Regards, Annette
> P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gem0571
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
> Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
>
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
> the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
> Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
> actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
> in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
> effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
> school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
> all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
> translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
> or help. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with Latin/English juxtaposed.
>
> However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three English, the latter not being translations of the former.
>
> The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold of!
>
> For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others. Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content, it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se, but a very good read.
> Best of luck!
> Regards, Annette
> P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gem0571
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
> Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
>
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
> the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
> Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
> actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
> in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
> effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
> school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
> all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
> translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
> or help. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 12:23:21
Good Lord - they've got everything digitized now!
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Clark
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
gem0571
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Clark
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
gem0571
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 12:31:49
Wow, didn't expect to find it so complete online! Thank you!
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Good Lord - they've got everything digitized now!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Karen Clark
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
>
>
> gem0571
>
> You could try this:
>
> http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
>
> Karen
>
> From: Annette Carson <email@...>
> Reply-To: <>
> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
> To: <>
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
> Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
> Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
> Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with
> Latin/English juxtaposed.
>
> However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
> a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
> some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
> English, the latter not being translations of the former.
>
> The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
> and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
> Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
> of!
>
> For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
> that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
> Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content,
> it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
> Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
> 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
> mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
> thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
> various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
> spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se,
> but a very good read.
> Best of luck!
> Regards, Annette
> P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
> if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
> October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gem0571
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
> Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
> the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
> Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
> actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
> because
> in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
> that
> effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
> at
> school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
> all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
> translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
> recommendations
> or help. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Good Lord - they've got everything digitized now!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Karen Clark
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
>
>
> gem0571
>
> You could try this:
>
> http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
>
> Karen
>
> From: Annette Carson <email@...>
> Reply-To: <>
> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
> To: <>
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
> Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
> Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
> Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with
> Latin/English juxtaposed.
>
> However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
> a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
> some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
> English, the latter not being translations of the former.
>
> The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
> and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
> Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
> of!
>
> For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
> that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
> Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content,
> it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
> Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
> 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
> mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
> thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
> various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
> spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se,
> but a very good read.
> Best of luck!
> Regards, Annette
> P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
> if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
> October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gem0571
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
> Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
> the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
> Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
> actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
> because
> in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
> that
> effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
> at
> school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
> all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
> translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
> recommendations
> or help. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 12:32:26
Perhaps I should have said the English versions are "not necessarily" translations of the Latin, and the Latin versions are "not necessarily" translations of the English! Dr Hanham will make everything clear ....
Annette
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Thank you very much for the response! Yes, it's specifically the More "History" for the style, although I wasn't aware the English versions weren't translations (oops). There's a copy of the Alison Hanham book you recommended in the school library (not Potter unfortunately) so I'll have a look. Thanks again!
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with Latin/English juxtaposed.
>
> However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three English, the latter not being translations of the former.
>
> The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold of!
>
> For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others. Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content, it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se, but a very good read.
> Best of luck!
> Regards, Annette
> P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gem0571
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
> Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
>
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
> the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
> Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
> actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
> in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
> effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
> school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
> all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
> translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
> or help. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Annette
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Thank you very much for the response! Yes, it's specifically the More "History" for the style, although I wasn't aware the English versions weren't translations (oops). There's a copy of the Alison Hanham book you recommended in the school library (not Potter unfortunately) so I'll have a look. Thanks again!
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available with Latin/English juxtaposed.
>
> However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three English, the latter not being translations of the former.
>
> The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold of!
>
> For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others. Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall content, it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians 1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per se, but a very good read.
> Best of luck!
> Regards, Annette
> P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: gem0571
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
> Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
>
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
> the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
> Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
> actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because
> in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that
> effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at
> school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
> all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
> translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations
> or help. Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 12:48:42
Pretty much, Annette. The internet has provided me without 74% of my
research material. It oozes with primary sources!
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:23:16 +0100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Good Lord - they've got everything digitized now!
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Clark
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
gem0571
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
Reply-To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available
with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall
content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per
se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
research material. It oozes with primary sources!
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:23:16 +0100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Good Lord - they've got everything digitized now!
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Clark
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
gem0571
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
Reply-To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available
with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall
content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per
se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 13:13:19
75%. 74 was a little specific, and a typo.
Karen
From: Karen Clark <ragged_staff@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:48:28 +1100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Pretty much, Annette. The internet has provided me without 74% of my
research material. It oozes with primary sources!
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
Reply-To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:23:16 +0100
To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Good Lord - they've got everything digitized now!
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Clark
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
gem0571
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com>
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
Reply-To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available
with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall
content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per
se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
Karen
From: Karen Clark <ragged_staff@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:48:28 +1100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Pretty much, Annette. The internet has provided me without 74% of my
research material. It oozes with primary sources!
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
Reply-To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:23:16 +0100
To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Good Lord - they've got everything digitized now!
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Clark
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
gem0571
You could try this:
http://thomasmorestudies.org/r3LatinConcordance/framconc.htm
Karen
From: Annette Carson <email@...
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com>
<mailto:email%40annettecarson.plus.com> >
Reply-To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:08:23 +0100
To: <
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Hi and welcome! It seems you are looking for Thomas More's "History of King
Richard the Third" in Latin, although there are other Latin accounts of
Richard's reign, e.g. the chronicle of the Abbey of Crowland and "De
Occupatione" by Domenico Mancini. Both the latter are readily available
with
Latin/English juxtaposed.
However, if it's More you want, you should first be aware that it was never
a complete opus, therefore several versions survive and they all differ to
some degree. If memory serves, there are two Latin versions and three
English, the latter not being translations of the former.
The only publication I know that juxtaposes More's "Richard III" in Latin
and English is volume 2 of "The Yale Edition of the Complete Works of St
Thomas More" (Yale University Press, 1963). It's very difficult to get hold
of!
For Richard III's historiography there are two readily obtainable analyses
that I would recommend - perhaps other forum members will suggest others.
Since their sections on More are only a small part of their overall
content,
it wouldn't take long to consult them. They are "Good King Richard?" by
Jeremy Potter (Constable, 1983) and "Richard III and his Early Historians
1483-1535" by Alison Hanham (Clarendon Press, 1975). Both are hot on their
mediaeval Latin. Hanham is well worth reading for her ideas on More and her
thorough knowledge of all the texts, both English and Latin, in their
various printed forms. She is a Latin scholar herself. Potter is more
spirited, more wide-ranging and less concerned with textual analysis per
se,
but a very good read.
Best of luck!
Regards, Annette
P.S. I have just managed to get the Yale edition on inter-library loan, so
if you are unable to get it yourself, contact me again before the end of
October and maybe I can scan a few specific sections for you.
----- Original Message -----
From: gem0571
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:24 AM
Subject: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on
the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the
Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the
actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in
because
in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to
that
effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking
at
school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and
all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English
translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any
recommendations
or help. Thanks!
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 17:21:35
"gem0571" wrote:
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
Carol responds:
First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
Carol
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
Carol responds:
First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
Carol
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-12 18:03:55
//snip// You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette? //snip//
Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
Regards, Annette
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
"gem0571" wrote:
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
Carol responds:
First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
Carol
Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
Regards, Annette
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
"gem0571" wrote:
>
> I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
Carol responds:
First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
Carol
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-13 18:01:56
Of course, noting that there IS an ablutive case in Greek, only in Latin. Cheers!
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> //snip// You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette? //snip//
>
> Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
> Regards, Annette
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> "gem0571" wrote:
> >
> > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
>
> Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> //snip// You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette? //snip//
>
> Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
> Regards, Annette
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> "gem0571" wrote:
> >
> > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
>
> Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-13 18:03:27
--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> Of course, noting that there is NO ablutive case in Greek, only in Latin. Cheers!
>
> --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> >
> > //snip// You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette? //snip//
> >
> > Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
> > Regards, Annette
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: justcarol67
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
> >
> > "gem0571" wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
> >
> > Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Of course, noting that there is NO ablutive case in Greek, only in Latin. Cheers!
>
> --- In , "Annette Carson" <email@> wrote:
> >
> > //snip// You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette? //snip//
> >
> > Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
> > Regards, Annette
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: justcarol67
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
> >
> > "gem0571" wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
> >
> > Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-13 18:06:55
I believe you mean "ablative"? Unless you plan on washing your language... ;-)
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: blancsanglier1452 <blancsanglier1452@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Of course, noting that there IS an ablutive case in Greek, only in Latin. Cheers!
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> //snip// You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette? //snip//
>
> Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
> Regards, Annette
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> "gem0571" wrote:
> >
> > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
>
> Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: blancsanglier1452 <blancsanglier1452@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
Of course, noting that there IS an ablutive case in Greek, only in Latin. Cheers!
--- In , "Annette Carson" <email@...> wrote:
>
> //snip// You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette? //snip//
>
> Fraid not, Carol - this little stand-alone offshoot of the Yale project is English without the Latin. Sylvester edited the original 1963 Yale complete works, so if you can get hold of it (RIII is vol 2), you get the Latin and English plus Sylvester's editorial comments as well.
> Regards, Annette
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
>
> "gem0571" wrote:
> >
> > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III. Alternatively any excerpt/copy of the actual Latin would be helpful! I'd like to see the style it's written in because in translation it reads a lot like Tacitus, and I've read odd comments to that effect, but it would be interesting to compare directly. I've been asking at school where I could find it but nobody seems to know where to start, and all I've been able to find is links to More's complete works or the English translation. I'm new to this so I'd be really grateful for any recommendations or help. Thanks!
>
> Carol responds:
>
> First, thank you for your choice of projects and I wish you success! I realize that you're still in what we Americans call high school, but if you have access to a university library, you can almost certainly find the printed books you're looking for rather than a digitized version with line numbers. If the library doesn't have it, you can usually get rare books through interlibrary loan. Also, if you have the time, you may want to search this list for references to Sir Thomas More, Alison Hanham, and related topics. We recently had a discussion of whether More's "History" was a dramatic satire--in, of all places, the mtDNA thread! You might also want to consult the standard annotated English edition of More's so-called "History" by Richard S. Sylvester, which Annette recommended to me but which I haven't had time to consult. Would that book be helpful with this project, Annette?
>
> Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Thomas More's "History" in Latin
2012-10-13 18:25:38
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> "gem0571" wrote:
> >
> > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III.
> Carol responds:
>
>
> Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
>
> Carol
Welcome to the group, gem.
All I can say, unscientifically, is that I was an editor for a long time, and to my eye, there is a definite stylistic break in the most commonly-seen version of the story. It occurs just before the murder of the boys in the Tower. The previous narrative is very well written, full of action and vivid details. The reader is swept along by the action.
Then suddenly we get characteristic More style. More doesn't trust the intelligence or emotional depth of his readers. He not only tells you what is happening -- usually more than once -- he tell you what it means and how to react to it.
There are computer programs that serve to compare styles -- word usage, vocabulary, grammar, and so on -- between questioned examples of prose. I know they've been used to compare the works attributed to Shakespeare to known works by Christopher Marlowe and maybe the Earl of Essex, too. And more mundanely, they're employed by police and legal professions to try to determine if wills, suicide notes, anonymous threatening letters, etc were composed by a particular person. John Morton probably mainly produced works in Latin, but if some of his writings in English could be found, comparing his style and vocabulary with that of More might shed some interesting light on who wrote what part of the History of King Richard III.
Katy
>
>
>
> "gem0571" wrote:
> >
> > I'm an A-level student doing an independent project on the historiography of Richard III and am looking for an analysis of the Latin of his History of Richard III.
> Carol responds:
>
>
> Regarding Latin style, many people consider More's chief source (at least for the earlier parts of the manuscript) to be a lost manuscript by Bishop Morton, so you might want to compare More's style with Morton's in some other document. Someone on this list (I think it was Katy) said that she detects a stylistic difference in the early and late portions of the English version. Maybe she could elaborate on this point and you could look for similar differences in the Latin version(s). Just a thought.
>
> Carol
Welcome to the group, gem.
All I can say, unscientifically, is that I was an editor for a long time, and to my eye, there is a definite stylistic break in the most commonly-seen version of the story. It occurs just before the murder of the boys in the Tower. The previous narrative is very well written, full of action and vivid details. The reader is swept along by the action.
Then suddenly we get characteristic More style. More doesn't trust the intelligence or emotional depth of his readers. He not only tells you what is happening -- usually more than once -- he tell you what it means and how to react to it.
There are computer programs that serve to compare styles -- word usage, vocabulary, grammar, and so on -- between questioned examples of prose. I know they've been used to compare the works attributed to Shakespeare to known works by Christopher Marlowe and maybe the Earl of Essex, too. And more mundanely, they're employed by police and legal professions to try to determine if wills, suicide notes, anonymous threatening letters, etc were composed by a particular person. John Morton probably mainly produced works in Latin, but if some of his writings in English could be found, comparing his style and vocabulary with that of More might shed some interesting light on who wrote what part of the History of King Richard III.
Katy
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