Re-reading *The Daughter of Time*

Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J I
thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
*The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne....The Daughter of Time has begun the interest in Richard for so many....I read it about 40 years ago....methinks its time to have a re-read....Eileen
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J I
> thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
> the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
> *The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
> fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
> the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi, Eileen -



It's a good time for a re-read. It's a dark, chilly, damp day here in Nova
Scotia, and I've got a fire burning brightly in the woodstove. Just a
perfect day to sit down with a good book and a cuppa. If it weren't
something Ricardian, it would be *The Lord of the Rings.* Maybe I'll save
that for my December vacation.



I'm going to try to erase all the 40+ years since I first read *Daughter of
Time* and read it as if I'm reading it for the first time. It made such an
impact on me when I read it. (I just wish I remembered more of the
discussion on the book in my English History class that was led by Professor
Henry Young. I wonder if I've got my class notes packed away somewhere. J)
Anyway, the great strength of the book was that it was a great popular read
and yet introduced people like me who knew nothing about Richard, or if they
did know had accepted the Tudor-era screed rather unquestioningly, to the
fact that there was another side of the story. I would raise a glass to
Josephine Tey for that achievement alone, although her book is a corker of a
tale just taken on its own.



Enjoy reading!



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~







From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:05 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re-reading *The Daughter of Time*





Johanne....The Daughter of Time has begun the interest in Richard for so
many....I read it about 40 years ago....methinks its time to have a
re-read....Eileen

Hi, Johanne!

It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and reread) Tolkien.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Re-reading *The Daughter of Time*


 
Hi, Eileen -

It's a good time for a re-read. It's a dark, chilly, damp day here in Nova
Scotia, and I've got a fire burning brightly in the woodstove. Just a
perfect day to sit down with a good book and a cuppa. If it weren't
something Ricardian, it would be *The Lord of the Rings.* Maybe I'll save
that for my December vacation.

I'm going to try to erase all the 40+ years since I first read *Daughter of
Time* and read it as if I'm reading it for the first time. It made such an
impact on me when I read it. (I just wish I remembered more of the
discussion on the book in my English History class that was led by Professor
Henry Young. I wonder if I've got my class notes packed away somewhere. J)
Anyway, the great strength of the book was that it was a great popular read
and yet introduced people like me who knew nothing about Richard, or if they
did know had accepted the Tudor-era screed rather unquestioningly, to the
fact that there was another side of the story. I would raise a glass to
Josephine Tey for that achievement alone, although her book is a corker of a
tale just taken on its own.

Enjoy reading!

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:05 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re-reading *The Daughter of Time*

Johanne....The Daughter of Time has begun the interest in Richard for so
many....I read it about 40 years ago....methinks its time to have a
re-read....Eileen

Lol Johanne...Nova Scotia...wow...Well Im in the Cotswolds... also with a woodburner burning away...and its chilly but bright and lovely blue sky...Have been out for a 4 mile walk today...Bliss.

I can recall my sister gave me my copy of The Daughter of Time which she spotted and picked up secondhand for me as thought I would like as she had read it....I think it cost about two shillings...I remember on the first page the author had dedicated the book to her mother who had been the one to teach her that "Truth is the Daughter of Time"....Could there ever have been a more appropriate title for a book about Richard.

Josephine Tey.....Ricardians everywhere owe a great thank you to this lady...

Eileen....

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Eileen -
>
>
>
> It's a good time for a re-read. It's a dark, chilly, damp day here in Nova
> Scotia, and I've got a fire burning brightly in the woodstove. Just a
> perfect day to sit down with a good book and a cuppa. If it weren't
> something Ricardian, it would be *The Lord of the Rings.* Maybe I'll save
> that for my December vacation.
>
>
>
> I'm going to try to erase all the 40+ years since I first read *Daughter of
> Time* and read it as if I'm reading it for the first time. It made such an
> impact on me when I read it. (I just wish I remembered more of the
> discussion on the book in my English History class that was led by Professor
> Henry Young. I wonder if I've got my class notes packed away somewhere. J)
> Anyway, the great strength of the book was that it was a great popular read
> and yet introduced people like me who knew nothing about Richard, or if they
> did know had accepted the Tudor-era screed rather unquestioningly, to the
> fact that there was another side of the story. I would raise a glass to
> Josephine Tey for that achievement alone, although her book is a corker of a
> tale just taken on its own.
>
>
>
> Enjoy reading!
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:05 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re-reading *The Daughter of Time*
>
>
>
>
>
> Johanne....The Daughter of Time has begun the interest in Richard for so
> many....I read it about 40 years ago....methinks its time to have a
> re-read....Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into *The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."

Carol responds:

There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a thoroughly enjoyable read.

Carol

Hi, Carol & Everyone -



Thanks for the tip, Carol! I have read a couple of Peters' Amelia Peabody
mysteries, set in turn of the century Egypt, but I have not read *The
Murders of Richard III.* I see Amazon.ca has copies available in paperback
for $.01 plus shipping! Not a bad deal, I would say! (It's not available for
the kindle, unfortunately.)



I am into Chapter two of *The Daughter of Time.* I am reading a hardback
edition issued by ImPress Mystery in 1979, figured it would hold together
better than my paperback copy. There is no dust jacket, but it is quite a
well bound book, with *The Daughter of Time* and "Josephine Tey" in a
facsimile of her signature embossed in gold vertically on the front, and the
letters spelling "TRUTH" impressed into the cover (self-coloured, in other
words), each letter alternating with the words of the title and name of the
author. It is really quite handsome-looking.



There is a preface by an English mystery writer named Robert Barnard, a bit
snarky in tone. He says that Tey doesn't escape some of the failings of her
contemporaries of the Golden Age of crime fiction, including "Anti-Semitism,
contempt for the working class, a deep uneasiness about any enthusiasm (for
example Scottish nationalism) that, to her, smacks of crankiness." Well,
I've only just started Chapter Two, but if Tey's portrayal of Mrs. Tinker,
Grant's housekeeper, is an example of her "contempt for the working class,"
I think he's got it wrong; Mrs. Tinker so far is a solid working-class lady
and reminds me a bit of Michael Caine's portrait of his Cockney mother.
Endearing, in other words. She does diss Mary Queen of Scots a bit but
cleverly not vehemently. Does anyone know of any evidence of Tey's being
Anti-Semitic?



I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the
front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of
Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read
in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior
knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older
sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree.
Perhaps they are incomplete? Or perhaps the name is misstated in the
newspaper articles?



Comments?



Johanne



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:08 PM
To:
Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other
light Ricardian reading.





Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J
I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
*The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."

Carol responds:

There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also
light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly
recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of
eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity
to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the
title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a
thoroughly enjoyable read.

Carol

Oh no. Michael Ibsen is descended from Anne, Duchess of Exeter who was Richard's sister.

----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.



Hi, Carol & Everyone -

Thanks for the tip, Carol! I have read a couple of Peters' Amelia Peabody
mysteries, set in turn of the century Egypt, but I have not read *The
Murders of Richard III.* I see Amazon.ca has copies available in paperback
for $.01 plus shipping! Not a bad deal, I would say! (It's not available for
the kindle, unfortunately.)

I am into Chapter two of *The Daughter of Time.* I am reading a hardback
edition issued by ImPress Mystery in 1979, figured it would hold together
better than my paperback copy. There is no dust jacket, but it is quite a
well bound book, with *The Daughter of Time* and "Josephine Tey" in a
facsimile of her signature embossed in gold vertically on the front, and the
letters spelling "TRUTH" impressed into the cover (self-coloured, in other
words), each letter alternating with the words of the title and name of the
author. It is really quite handsome-looking.

There is a preface by an English mystery writer named Robert Barnard, a bit
snarky in tone. He says that Tey doesn't escape some of the failings of her
contemporaries of the Golden Age of crime fiction, including "Anti-Semitism,
contempt for the working class, a deep uneasiness about any enthusiasm (for
example Scottish nationalism) that, to her, smacks of crankiness." Well,
I've only just started Chapter Two, but if Tey's portrayal of Mrs. Tinker,
Grant's housekeeper, is an example of her "contempt for the working class,"
I think he's got it wrong; Mrs. Tinker so far is a solid working-class lady
and reminds me a bit of Michael Caine's portrait of his Cockney mother.
Endearing, in other words. She does diss Mary Queen of Scots a bit but
cleverly not vehemently. Does anyone know of any evidence of Tey's being
Anti-Semitic?

I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the
front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of
Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read
in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior
knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older
sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree.
Perhaps they are incomplete? Or perhaps the name is misstated in the
newspaper articles?

Comments?

Johanne

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:08 PM
To:
Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other
light Ricardian reading.

Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J
I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
*The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."

Carol responds:

There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also
light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly
recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of
eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity
to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the
title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a
thoroughly enjoyable read.

Carol

Hi, Stephen & Everyone -

The family tree showing the descendants of Ralph Neville, Earl of
Westmoreland, lists four siblings of Richard's: 1) Elizabeth, married John
de la Pole, the Duke of Suffolk, 2) Edward IV, 3) George, Duke of Clarence,
and 4) Margaret, who married Charles, the Duke of Burgundy. There is no
mention of Anne, Duchess of Exeter. Where did she come in order? And are
there any other siblings that are missing from the tree?



Johanne



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:10 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Oh no. Michael Ibsen is descended from Anne, Duchess of Exeter who was
Richard's sister.

----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Hi, Carol & Everyone -



[Johanne Tournier] <schnipp>


I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the
front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of
Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read
in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior
knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older
sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree.
Perhaps they are incomplete? Or perhaps the name is misstated in the
newspaper articles?

Comments?

Johanne

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:08 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other
light Ricardian reading.

Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J
I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
*The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."

Carol responds:

There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also
light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly
recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of
eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity
to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the
title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a
thoroughly enjoyable read.

Carol

13 children in all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Plantagenet,_3rd_Duke_of_York#Issue







________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 22:34
Subject: Richard's siblings (was RE: *The Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.)


 
Hi, Stephen & Everyone -

The family tree showing the descendants of Ralph Neville, Earl of
Westmoreland, lists four siblings of Richard's: 1) Elizabeth, married John
de la Pole, the Duke of Suffolk, 2) Edward IV, 3) George, Duke of Clarence,
and 4) Margaret, who married Charles, the Duke of Burgundy. There is no
mention of Anne, Duchess of Exeter. Where did she come in order? And are
there any other siblings that are missing from the tree?

Johanne

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:10 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Oh no. Michael Ibsen is descended from Anne, Duchess of Exeter who was
Richard's sister.

----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Hi, Carol & Everyone -

[Johanne Tournier] <schnipp>

I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the
front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of
Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read
in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior
knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older
sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree.
Perhaps they are incomplete? Or perhaps the name is misstated in the
newspaper articles?

Comments?

Johanne

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:08 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other
light Ricardian reading.

Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J
I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
*The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."

Carol responds:

There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also
light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly
recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of
eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity
to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the
title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a
thoroughly enjoyable read.

Carol

Yes, Edmund (Earl of Rutland) and others (Henry, Thomas .......). Tey's list suggests that she has included only those who reproduced, however Anne belongs in this category. She was also among the eldest.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:34 PM
Subject: Richard's siblings (was RE: *The Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.)



Hi, Stephen & Everyone -

The family tree showing the descendants of Ralph Neville, Earl of
Westmoreland, lists four siblings of Richard's: 1) Elizabeth, married John
de la Pole, the Duke of Suffolk, 2) Edward IV, 3) George, Duke of Clarence,
and 4) Margaret, who married Charles, the Duke of Burgundy. There is no
mention of Anne, Duchess of Exeter. Where did she come in order? And are
there any other siblings that are missing from the tree?

Johanne

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:10 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Oh no. Michael Ibsen is descended from Anne, Duchess of Exeter who was
Richard's sister.

----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Hi, Carol & Everyone -

[Johanne Tournier] <schnipp>

I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the
front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of
Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read
in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior
knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older
sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree.
Perhaps they are incomplete? Or perhaps the name is misstated in the
newspaper articles?

Comments?

Johanne

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:08 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other
light Ricardian reading.

Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J
I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
*The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."

Carol responds:

There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also
light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly
recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of
eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity
to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the
title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a
thoroughly enjoyable read.

Carol

Johanne Tournier wrote:
<snip>

> I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree. <snip>

Carol responds:

My paperback edition of "Daughter of Time" doesn't have a family tree, but it sounds as if Tey included only the main characters, so to speak. Richard had three older sisters, Anne, Elizabeth, and Margaret, and three older brothers, Edward, Edmund (who died at seventeen), and George (not counting about four older brothers and one younger sister who died in infancy). Regarding the sisters and mitochondrial DNA, Margaret was childless and Elizabeth's daughters evidently didn't marry. One, if I recall correctly, became a nun. I've tried to find out what happened to the de la Pole daughters but without success.

Here's a detailed list of Richard's brothers and sisters, including an older sister, Joan, who evidently also died in infancy but is seldom mentioned:

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_20.htm

Anyway, the mtDNA is being traced through Anne of York and her daughter, Anne St. Leger (Anne's husbands left something to be desired in terms of loyalty to her brothers). You might also find this link (about Richard's mtDNA) to be of interest:

http://plantagenetdna.webs.com/richardiiisdna.htm

Carol





Carol

Hi Carol, Stephen and David -
I am away from my 'puter but just wanted to write a quick thank you for lots of helpful info and links to do more reading. It amazes me that they can actually trace families back so far and even further as the Ibsen family would go back at least to Edward III and I am sure his family can be traced back even farther than that.
Johanne

-----Original Message-----

From: justcarol67
Sent: 14 Oct 2012 21:51:36 GMT
To:
Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.



Johanne Tournier wrote:
<snip>

> I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree. <snip>

Carol responds:

My paperback edition of "Daughter of Time" doesn't have a family tree, but it sounds as if Tey included only the main characters, so to speak. Richard had three older sisters, Anne, Elizabeth, and Margaret, and three older brothers, Edward, Edmund (who died at seventeen), and George (not counting about four older brothers and one younger sister who died in infancy). Regarding the sisters and mitochondrial DNA, Margaret was childless and Elizabeth's daughters evidently didn't marry. One, if I recall correctly, became a nun. I've tried to find out what happened to the de la Pole daughters but without success.

Here's a detailed list of Richard's brothers and sisters, including an older sister, Joan, who evidently also died in infancy but is seldom mentioned:

http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_20.htm

Anyway, the mtDNA is being traced through Anne of York and her daughter, Anne St. Leger (Anne's husbands left something to be desired in terms of loyalty to her brothers). You might also find this link (about Richard's mtDNA) to be of interest:

http://plantagenetdna.webs.com/richardiiisdna.htm

Carol





Carol

Apart from a mention of an older sister, Joan, in some sources, I understand
that Anne was the eldest.

Karen

From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:46:10 +0100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Richard's siblings (was RE: *The
Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.)






Yes, Edmund (Earl of Rutland) and others (Henry, Thomas .......). Tey's list
suggests that she has included only those who reproduced, however Anne
belongs in this category. She was also among the eldest.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:34 PM
Subject: Richard's siblings (was RE: *The
Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.)

Hi, Stephen & Everyone -

The family tree showing the descendants of Ralph Neville, Earl of
Westmoreland, lists four siblings of Richard's: 1) Elizabeth, married John
de la Pole, the Duke of Suffolk, 2) Edward IV, 3) George, Duke of Clarence,
and 4) Margaret, who married Charles, the Duke of Burgundy. There is no
mention of Anne, Duchess of Exeter. Where did she come in order? And are
there any other siblings that are missing from the tree?

Johanne

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Stephen
Lark
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:10 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Oh no. Michael Ibsen is descended from Anne, Duchess of Exeter who was
Richard's sister.

----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
other light Ricardian reading.

Hi, Carol & Everyone -

[Johanne Tournier] <schnipp>

I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the
front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of
Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read
in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior
knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older
sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree.
Perhaps they are incomplete? Or perhaps the name is misstated in the
newspaper articles?

Comments?

Johanne

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
justcarol67
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:08 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other
light Ricardian reading.

Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J
I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears
by
the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
*The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."

Carol responds:

There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also
light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly
recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of
eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity
to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the
title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a
thoroughly enjoyable read.

Carol

Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Apart from a mention of an older sister, Joan, in some sources, I understand that Anne was the eldest.
>
> Karen

Carp; responds:

Anne was the eldest surviving daughter, just as Edward was the eldest surviving son. Most historians ignore the babies who died in infancy, Joan and Henry (the eldest nonsurviving son) among them. Many even ignore Edmund, who died at seventeen (unless they're writing about Wakefield).

Carol

Joan's a bit more hazy than any of the other children who died. I've only
seen her mentioned in a couple of genealogies. Secondary sources that
mention Henry, John, Thomas, William (? Slight brain freeze) and Ursula,
don't mention Joan, or not the ones I've seen. She's a mystery, that's for
sure!

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:00:34 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Richard's siblings (was RE: *The
Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.)








Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Apart from a mention of an older sister, Joan, in some sources, I understand
that Anne was the eldest.
>
> Karen

Carp; responds:

Anne was the eldest surviving daughter, just as Edward was the eldest
surviving son. Most historians ignore the babies who died in infancy, Joan
and Henry (the eldest nonsurviving son) among them. Many even ignore Edmund,
who died at seventeen (unless they're writing about Wakefield).

Carol

Guilty too.

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Johanne!
>
> It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and reread) Tolkien.
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:46 AM
> Subject: RE: Re: Re-reading *The Daughter of Time*
>
>
>  
> Hi, Eileen -
>
> It's a good time for a re-read. It's a dark, chilly, damp day here in Nova
> Scotia, and I've got a fire burning brightly in the woodstove. Just a
> perfect day to sit down with a good book and a cuppa. If it weren't
> something Ricardian, it would be *The Lord of the Rings.* Maybe I'll save
> that for my December vacation.
>
> I'm going to try to erase all the 40+ years since I first read *Daughter of
> Time* and read it as if I'm reading it for the first time. It made such an
> impact on me when I read it. (I just wish I remembered more of the
> discussion on the book in my English History class that was led by Professor
> Henry Young. I wonder if I've got my class notes packed away somewhere. J)
> Anyway, the great strength of the book was that it was a great popular read
> and yet introduced people like me who knew nothing about Richard, or if they
> did know had accepted the Tudor-era screed rather unquestioningly, to the
> fact that there was another side of the story. I would raise a glass to
> Josephine Tey for that achievement alone, although her book is a corker of a
> tale just taken on its own.
>
> Enjoy reading!
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 10:05 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re-reading *The Daughter of Time*
>
> Johanne....The Daughter of Time has begun the interest in Richard for so
> many....I read it about 40 years ago....methinks its time to have a
> re-read....Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Judy wrote:
> > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and reread) Tolkien.

Carol responnds belatedly:
So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians for JRRT?

Carol

I'm a half-member: in our late teens, my friend and I read the Trilogy +
Hobbit; a lot of Ayn Rand; and Herman Hesse. Hesse barely made an
impression; we were very bay Randites as we always chose the wrong people
to root for; but Tolkien stuck. We also read the Silmarillion and some
other of his short works. But we never have re-read him.

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:24 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> Judy wrote:
> > > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and
> reread) Tolkien.
>
> Carol responnds belatedly:
> So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should
> form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians
> for JRRT?
>
> Carol
>
>
>

Tolkein knows few boundaries. And there's an odd link between reading and
writing both fantasy and historical fiction, not that everyone reads or
writers according to genre! I write both, though my reading is more varied
than that, and I know a few others who do as well.

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 00:24:01 -0000
To: <>
Subject: The Richard/Tolkien connection







Judy wrote:
> > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and
reread) Tolkien.

Carol responnds belatedly:
So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should
form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians
for JRRT?

Carol

Several more, if I include people not on this Forum...

Judy

 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 7:24 PM
Subject: The Richard/Tolkien connection


 

Judy wrote:
> > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and reread) Tolkien.

Carol responnds belatedly:
So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians for JRRT?

Carol

Tolkien took great pains to create an "authentic" world, complete with its own languages, etc. I've sometimes wondered if he had an opinion on the historical Richard, but I have never come across anything to suggest he held anything beyond the conventional, Shakepearean views.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: The Richard/Tolkien connection


 
Tolkein knows few boundaries. And there's an odd link between reading and
writing both fantasy and historical fiction, not that everyone reads or
writers according to genre! I write both, though my reading is more varied
than that, and I know a few others who do as well.

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 00:24:01 -0000
To: <>
Subject: The Richard/Tolkien connection

Judy wrote:
> > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and
reread) Tolkien.

Carol responnds belatedly:
So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should
form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians
for JRRT?

Carol

12 - Joan is a fantasy
Marie

--- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> 13 children in all
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Plantagenet,_3rd_Duke_of_York#Issue
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 22:34
> Subject: Richard's siblings (was RE: *The Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.)
>
>
>  
> Hi, Stephen & Everyone -
>
> The family tree showing the descendants of Ralph Neville, Earl of
> Westmoreland, lists four siblings of Richard's: 1) Elizabeth, married John
> de la Pole, the Duke of Suffolk, 2) Edward IV, 3) George, Duke of Clarence,
> and 4) Margaret, who married Charles, the Duke of Burgundy. There is no
> mention of Anne, Duchess of Exeter. Where did she come in order? And are
> there any other siblings that are missing from the tree?
>
> Johanne
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:10 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
> other light Ricardian reading.
>
> Oh no. Michael Ibsen is descended from Anne, Duchess of Exeter who was
> Richard's sister.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Johanne Tournier
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:59 PM
> Subject: RE: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and
> other light Ricardian reading.
>
> Hi, Carol & Everyone -
>
> [Johanne Tournier] <schnipp>
>
> I had forgotten that there are a couple of family trees reproduced at the
> front of the book - the descendants of Edward III and the descendants of
> Ralph Neville, Earl of Westmoreland. Looking it over, I thought I had read
> in some of the newspaper articles about the DNA testing of the warrior
> knight in Leicester that Michael Ibsen is descended from "Richard's older
> sister Anne." But there is no such sibling shown on either family tree.
> Perhaps they are incomplete? Or perhaps the name is misstated in the
> newspaper articles?
>
> Comments?
>
> Johanne
>
> From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 4:08 PM
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: *The Daughter of Time* and other
> light Ricardian reading.
>
> Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Time to reacquaint myself with my earliest encounter with Ricardianism. J
> I thought . . . maybe I should re-read Kendall, which reduced me to tears by
> the sad climax at the Battle of Bosworth. But I decided I would dig into
> *The Daughter of Time* by Josephine Tey, probably the lightest Ricardian
> fare, and my first exposure to the issues surrounding RIII, the Princes in
> the Tower, and nasty Henry VII, Bishop Morton, and "the sainted More."
>
> Carol responds:
>
> There's another, less well known, Ricardian detective novel, which is also
> light reading and just plain fun despite the misleading title. I highly
> recommend Elizabeth Peters's "The Murders of Richard III" (about a group of
> eccentric Ricardians, one of whom uses Richard's "crimes" as an opportunity
> to commit a murder). I won't spoil it by saying any more, but don't let the
> title (or the silliness of some of the characters) deter you from a
> thoroughly enjoyable read.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Marie wrote:
>
> 12 [not 13 children of Cecily Neville and Richard Duke of York]- Joan is a fantasy

Carol responds:

Interesting! Do you mean that she's not mentioned in the famous rhyme in the Clare Roll (the one containing the line, "Richard liveth yet")? Who would invent her and why? (Unanswerable question, I realize, but I'd be interested in informed speculation.)

Carol

Hmm. Speculation...that 13 would be unlucky, and in retrospect would foretell Doom and Gloom for Richard?

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Richard's siblings (was RE: *The Daughter of Time* and other light Ricardian reading.)


 
Marie wrote:
>
> 12 [not 13 children of Cecily Neville and Richard Duke of York]- Joan is a fantasy

Carol responds:

Interesting! Do you mean that she's not mentioned in the famous rhyme in the Clare Roll (the one containing the line, "Richard liveth yet")? Who would invent her and why? (Unanswerable question, I realize, but I'd be interested in informed speculation.)

Carol

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Marie wrote:
> >
> > 12 [not 13 children of Cecily Neville and Richard Duke of York]- Joan is a fantasy
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Interesting! Do you mean that she's not mentioned in the famous rhyme in the Clare Roll (the one containing the line, "Richard liveth yet")? Who would invent her and why? (Unanswerable question, I realize, but I'd be interested in informed speculation.)
>
> Carol


Indeed, Carol, she's not mentioned in that OR in the list in William Worcestre's history (the one that gives birth dates for all of them and even times of birth for some). We looked at this on the forum a few years back, and Joan seems to owe her supposed existence to a later book on royal genealogies - I think it may even have been Alison Weir's.
Marie
>

Carol earlier:
> >
> > Interesting! Do you mean that she's not mentioned in the famous rhyme in the Clare Roll (the one containing the line, "Richard liveth yet")? Who would invent her and why? (Unanswerable question, I realize, but I'd be interested in informed speculation.)
> >

Marie responded:

> Indeed, Carol, she's not mentioned in that OR in the list in William Worcestre's history (the one that gives birth dates for all of them and even times of birth for some). We looked at this on the forum a few years back, and Joan seems to owe her supposed existence to a later book on royal genealogies - I think it may even have been Alison Weir's.

Carol again:

Alison Weir? Then Joan is definitely imaginary! But what possible motive could Weir have had for inventing her? (Rhetorical question.)

By the way, do you have a link to William Worcestre's list?

Thanks,
Carol

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> > >
> > > Interesting! Do you mean that she's not mentioned in the famous rhyme in the Clare Roll (the one containing the line, "Richard liveth yet")? Who would invent her and why? (Unanswerable question, I realize, but I'd be interested in informed speculation.)
> > >
>
> Marie responded:
>
> > Indeed, Carol, she's not mentioned in that OR in the list in William Worcestre's history (the one that gives birth dates for all of them and even times of birth for some). We looked at this on the forum a few years back, and Joan seems to owe her supposed existence to a later book on royal genealogies - I think it may even have been Alison Weir's.
>
> Carol again:
>
> Alison Weir? Then Joan is definitely imaginary! But what possible motive could Weir have had for inventing her? (Rhetorical question.)
>
> By the way, do you have a link to William Worcestre's list?
>
> Thanks,
> Carol
>


It's in 'Letters and Papers Illustrative of the Wars of the English in France', Volume 2 Parte 2, and it's on Gallica. Worcestre's name is spelt Wyrcester in this work.
The births of York's children are slotted into the annals, over several pages starting on page 762. I'm afraid it's all in Latin. Anyway, the link is:-
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50185g.r=%22Letters+and+papers%22.langEN
Marie
P.S. I may be slow to respond to other questions for the next few days as I have a guest staying.

Marie wrote:
> It's in 'Letters and Papers Illustrative of the Wars of the English in France', Volume 2 Parte 2, and it's on Gallica. Worcestre's name is spelt Wyrcester in this work.
> The births of York's children are slotted into the annals, over several pages starting on page 762. I'm afraid it's all in Latin. Anyway, the link is:-
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50185g.r=%22Letters+and+papers%22.langEN
<snip>

Carol responds:

Thanks, Marie. I found the bit I wanted: "1452 Natus eft Ricardus apud Fodryngay fecundo die Octobris die Lunœ." My Latin is *very* rusty, but I translate this note as "1452 Richard is born at Fotheringhay second day of October day Friday." And there's a note, which can't be by William of Worcester himself, " 4 Subintellige, filius 8v«s Richardi, ducis Eboraci. Qui quidem filius fcßia regnum Anglite ufurpavit,utpote qui Richardi tertii." Don't recall what "subintellige" means, but the rest is apparently "eighth son of Richard, Duke of York" and something about his usurping the crown of England and becoming Richard III. Really need to brush up on my Latin!

But what I was looking for is the hour of birth, which is not specified for Richard, making Rous's claim that his rising sign was Scorpio all the more spurious. Nevertheless, I found this edifying website claiming to give the detailed horoscope of the "criminal perpetrator" with Scorpio as his rising sign, along with the claim that he was born at 9:02 in the morning: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Richard_III,_King_of_England

What next?

Carol

subintellige I believe is understand or understanding
George

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 16, 2012, at 8:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> Marie wrote:
> > It's in 'Letters and Papers Illustrative of the Wars of the English in France', Volume 2 Parte 2, and it's on Gallica. Worcestre's name is spelt Wyrcester in this work.
> > The births of York's children are slotted into the annals, over several pages starting on page 762. I'm afraid it's all in Latin. Anyway, the link is:-
> > http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50185g.r=%22Letters+and+papers%22.langEN
> <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Marie. I found the bit I wanted: "1452 Natus eft Ricardus apud Fodryngay fecundo die Octobris die LunS." My Latin is *very* rusty, but I translate this note as "1452 Richard is born at Fotheringhay second day of October day Friday." And there's a note, which can't be by William of Worcester himself, " 4 Subintellige, filius 8v«s Richardi, ducis Eboraci. Qui quidem filius fcßia regnum Anglite ufurpavit,utpote qui Richardi tertii." Don't recall what "subintellige" means, but the rest is apparently "eighth son of Richard, Duke of York" and something about his usurping the crown of England and becoming Richard III. Really need to brush up on my Latin!
>
> But what I was looking for is the hour of birth, which is not specified for Richard, making Rous's claim that his rising sign was Scorpio all the more spurious. Nevertheless, I found this edifying website claiming to give the detailed horoscope of the "criminal perpetrator" with Scorpio as his rising sign, along with the claim that he was born at 9:02 in the morning: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Richard_III,_King_of_England
>
> What next?
>
> Carol
>
>

I joined the R III Society in 1973, and took the Ricardian tour that
summer. We were in London, and I was getting ready to go to a pub to meet
some of the people on the tour for dinner, when I heard
on the radio in my hotel room that Tolkien had died. I got to the pub,
where one person was already waiting. Guess I was looking glum; she asked
if anything was wrong. I told her the news, not sure if she or the others
would even know who Tolkien was, but it turned out that everyone who showed
up for dinner was already a "Ricardian for JRRT."

Ricardians are readers. I'm still grateful to one of the people on that
tour for introducing me to G M Fraser. "Flashman fans for Richard III,"
anyone? :-)


Peggy

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:24 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
> Judy wrote:
> > > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and
> reread) Tolkien.
>
> Carol responnds belatedly:
> So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should
> form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians
> for JRRT?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi, Peggy -



That is a wonderful reminiscence! Thank you for sharing! Besides Ricardians
being readers in general, which certainly seems true enough, I think the
special affinity for Tolkien may also have something to do with the fact
that his greatest heroes, the hobbits, were the smallest figures -
underdogs, in other words. After all, a certain amount of the appeal of
Richard for me, certainly, is the feeling that he has been misunderstood for
most of his history, and that he was a tremendous underdog of his era. I
think it takes exceptional individuals to be able to look beyond
conventional wisdom and understand the forces operating on Richard. There
was so much in his life at the end that was beyond his ability to control;
he must have been terribly unhappy and perhaps desperate by the time of the
battle of Bosworth.



1973 is also the Summer that I spent in Britain (most of the time finishing
up my MLS at an international school of librarianship in Aberystwyth,
Wales). After the Summer School was over I spent two weeks alone in London,
waiting for my mom to make arrangements to meet me in Portugal. I stayed at
the Harley House Hotel, near Russell Square, which is sadly no more. It was
run by a very kindly elderly lady, whose name escapes me, whom I recall
with great fondness. I was comfortably off for the first week, but by the
second week, I was running low on cash. My mom wired me money through
Western Union, but for some reason it never arrived. The lady let me sleep
on the sofa in the parlor (made up with bedding after closing in the
evening) and gave me the full English breakfast, all for one pound/night.
During the day I did a lot of walking around London, used the tubes
occasionally, which were pretty cheap, and spent a lot of time in the London
museums, especially the British, the National, and the National Portrait
Gallery, where - ta-da! - I bought my copy of the portrait of Richard. My
recollection is that the museums were free at that time. Usually I would
skip lunch and have inexpensive noshes like a pasty and pop for supper in
the evening.



This was also the time when the IRA were setting off letter bombs and such
in England. I remember we were at the Law Courts watching a marijuana trial
one day when they were evacuated because a car parked on the street had an
envelope postmarked in Ireland. More scarily, I was coming home by tube one
evening and a bomb went off in one of the stations I had gone through just
about a half hour before. Despite that narrow escape, I had a simply
wonderful Summer in Britain - in our 10-day study tour round England and
Wales we stayed at the universities of Manchester, Birmingham, and London
and visited Chatsworth, Ludlow, Coventry, Kenilworth, and Warwick, among
other sites. During the middle of our course we got to see "As You Like It"
performed at Stratford and were hosted at a lunch by Richard Booth,
proprietor of the greatest series of used bookstores in the world at
Hay-on-Wye, a small town located on the border between England and Wales.



Can you tell that I love Britain??



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~











From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of PD
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:04 AM
To:
Subject: Re: The Richard/Tolkien connection





I joined the R III Society in 1973, and took the Ricardian tour that
summer. We were in London, and I was getting ready to go to a pub to meet
some of the people on the tour for dinner, when I heard
on the radio in my hotel room that Tolkien had died. I got to the pub,
where one person was already waiting. Guess I was looking glum; she asked
if anything was wrong. I told her the news, not sure if she or the others
would even know who Tolkien was, but it turned out that everyone who showed
up for dinner was already a "Ricardian for JRRT."

Ricardians are readers. I'm still grateful to one of the people on that
tour for introducing me to G M Fraser. "Flashman fans for Richard III,"
anyone? :-)

Peggy

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:24 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...
<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

>
> Judy wrote:
> > > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and
> reread) Tolkien.
>
> Carol responnds belatedly:
> So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should
> form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians
> for JRRT?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Marie wrote:
> > It's in 'Letters and Papers Illustrative of the Wars of the English in France', Volume 2 Parte 2, and it's on Gallica. Worcestre's name is spelt Wyrcester in this work.
> > The births of York's children are slotted into the annals, over several pages starting on page 762. I'm afraid it's all in Latin. Anyway, the link is:-
> > http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k50185g.r=%22Letters+and+papers%22.langEN
> <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Marie. I found the bit I wanted: "1452 Natus eft Ricardus apud Fodryngay fecundo die Octobris die Lunœ." My Latin is *very* rusty, but I translate this note as "1452 Richard is born at Fotheringhay second day of October day Friday."

Right, but Monday, not Friday,
Marie


And there's a note, which can't be by William of Worcester himself, " 4 Subintellige, filius 8v«s Richardi, ducis Eboraci. Qui quidem filius fcßia regnum Anglite ufurpavit,utpote qui Richardi tertii." Don't recall what "subintellige" means, but the rest is apparently "eighth son of Richard, Duke of York" and something about his usurping the crown of England and becoming Richard III. Really need to brush up on my Latin!
>
> But what I was looking for is the hour of birth, which is not specified for Richard, making Rous's claim that his rising sign was Scorpio all the more spurious. Nevertheless, I found this edifying website claiming to give the detailed horoscope of the "criminal perpetrator" with Scorpio as his rising sign, along with the claim that he was born at 9:02 in the morning: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Richard_III,_King_of_England
>
> What next?
>
> Carol
>

Read all the Flashmans 2 or 3 times. And the "core" Tolkeins.

One thing that occurred to me recently was that I hardly ever read a book (fiction or non-fiction) that doesn't have a genealogical table and/or map somewhere (preferably both); though this also reflects my duel history/boardgame interests.

I think the only fiction I've read for years is "Game of Thrones", pretty obvious really.

Find it hard to read Ricardian fiction; usually too obvious who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are. The great thing about Flashman is that he rarely does this.


________________________________
From: PD <outtolaunch@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 12:03
Subject: Re: The Richard/Tolkien connection


 
I joined the R III Society in 1973, and took the Ricardian tour that
summer. We were in London, and I was getting ready to go to a pub to meet
some of the people on the tour for dinner, when I heard
on the radio in my hotel room that Tolkien had died. I got to the pub,
where one person was already waiting. Guess I was looking glum; she asked
if anything was wrong. I told her the news, not sure if she or the others
would even know who Tolkien was, but it turned out that everyone who showed
up for dinner was already a "Ricardian for JRRT."

Ricardians are readers. I'm still grateful to one of the people on that
tour for introducing me to G M Fraser. "Flashman fans for Richard III,"
anyone? :-)

Peggy

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:24 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
> Judy wrote:
> > > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and
> reread) Tolkien.
>
> Carol responnds belatedly:
> So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should
> form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians
> for JRRT?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

My friend, the late Michael Straight was intrigued by the historical Richard. He also adored LotR and actually met Prof. Tolkien. In the mid-1950s, Michael wrote a magazine review of LotR, praising it enormously and predicting it would become a Classic. Before he died, Michael was very encouraging toward my Ricardian researches. We talked for hours about both Richard and Tolkien. If I ever complete a book, fiction or non-, I'm dedicating it to Michael...and now I write as if he were reading over my shoulder.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: david rayner <theblackprussian@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: The Richard/Tolkien connection


 
Read all the Flashmans 2 or 3 times. And the "core" Tolkeins.

One thing that occurred to me recently was that I hardly ever read a book (fiction or non-fiction) that doesn't have a genealogical table and/or map somewhere (preferably both); though this also reflects my duel history/boardgame interests.

I think the only fiction I've read for years is "Game of Thrones", pretty obvious really.

Find it hard to read Ricardian fiction; usually too obvious who the "good guys" and "bad guys" are. The great thing about Flashman is that he rarely does this.

________________________________
From: PD <outtolaunch@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 12:03
Subject: Re: The Richard/Tolkien connection


 
I joined the R III Society in 1973, and took the Ricardian tour that
summer. We were in London, and I was getting ready to go to a pub to meet
some of the people on the tour for dinner, when I heard
on the radio in my hotel room that Tolkien had died. I got to the pub,
where one person was already waiting. Guess I was looking glum; she asked
if anything was wrong. I told her the news, not sure if she or the others
would even know who Tolkien was, but it turned out that everyone who showed
up for dinner was already a "Ricardian for JRRT."

Ricardians are readers. I'm still grateful to one of the people on that
tour for introducing me to G M Fraser. "Flashman fans for Richard III,"
anyone? :-)

Peggy

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 8:24 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
> Judy wrote:
> > > It's interesting to me how many of my Ricardian friends also love (and
> reread) Tolkien.
>
> Carol responnds belatedly:
> So far, that's you, Johanne, Marie, and me. Did I miss anyone? We should
> form a new club, Tolkien fans for Richard III. Or should it be Ricardians
> for JRRT?
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>