Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*

Stephen Lark wrote:

I have noticed him described as "the late", with regard to his position soon
after 13th. This would make him dead if that phrase meant the same in 1483
but could it not just mean "the former"?

I think nowadays, "the former" usually denotes a position held by somone
still living, while "the late" almost always refers to a position held by
someone who is deceased. Ar rhe same time I seem to recall, perhaps in
televised Parliamentary debates?, the present-day use of "the late" to refer
to a position recently held by a still-living person. Although, to be
completely honest, the reference may have been "lately" rather than "the
late", which, as far as I know, hasn't the same connotation at all as "the
late".
Another research project!

If I have time, I'll check my OED for usage, Stephen. 

Judy 
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*


 

Stephen Lark wrote:

I have noticed him described as "the late", with regard to his position soon
after 13th. This would make him dead if that phrase meant the same in 1483
but could it not just mean "the former"?

I think nowadays, "the former" usually denotes a position held by somone
still living, while "the late" almost always refers to a position held by
someone who is deceased. Ar rhe same time I seem to recall, perhaps in
televised Parliamentary debates?, the present-day use of "the late" to refer
to a position recently held by a still-living person. Although, to be
completely honest, the reference may have been "lately" rather than "the
late", which, as far as I know, hasn't the same connotation at all as "the
late".
Another research project!

Mediaeval usage of the term "the late" and its mediaeval Latin equivalent "nuper" is a thorny problem which I have canvassed with scholars of Latin and of M.E., and even with the compilers of an ongoing dictionary project. The general consensus is that you really need to deduce its meaning from the context, and if the context doesn't give you a clue, it's best not to assume. This even applies to wills (RIII Society members will know that the Logge Wills have entailed extensive analysis of this kind of terminology). In M.E. sometimes "the late" means deceased and sometimes it means "the former but still living". But let me not dissuade anybody from spending happy hours going over this ground if they wish to!
Regards, Annette


----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*




Stephen Lark wrote:

I have noticed him described as "the late", with regard to his position soon
after 13th. This would make him dead if that phrase meant the same in 1483
but could it not just mean "the former"?

I think nowadays, "the former" usually denotes a position held by somone
still living, while "the late" almost always refers to a position held by
someone who is deceased. Ar rhe same time I seem to recall, perhaps in
televised Parliamentary debates?, the present-day use of "the late" to refer
to a position recently held by a still-living person. Although, to be
completely honest, the reference may have been "lately" rather than "the
late", which, as far as I know, hasn't the same connotation at all as "the
late".
Another research project!

Thankyou.

Today, ",the late Lord Chamberlain" would imply death and ",the former Lord Chamberlain" would not necessarily. This may not have applied in C15 in that "the late" may have incorporated the meaning of "lately".

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*



If I have time, I'll check my OED for usage, Stephen.

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*




Stephen Lark wrote:

I have noticed him described as "the late", with regard to his position soon
after 13th. This would make him dead if that phrase meant the same in 1483
but could it not just mean "the former"?

I think nowadays, "the former" usually denotes a position held by somone
still living, while "the late" almost always refers to a position held by
someone who is deceased. Ar rhe same time I seem to recall, perhaps in
televised Parliamentary debates?, the present-day use of "the late" to refer
to a position recently held by a still-living person. Although, to be
completely honest, the reference may have been "lately" rather than "the
late", which, as far as I know, hasn't the same connotation at all as "the
late".
Another research project!

Correct; the next use in written form was 1548, so it probably wasn't a common term in conversation.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*


 
Thankyou.

Today, ",the late Lord Chamberlain" would imply death and ",the former Lord Chamberlain" would not necessarily. This may not have applied in C15 in that "the late" may have incorporated the meaning of "lately".

----- Original Message -----
From: Judy Thomson
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*

If I have time, I'll check my OED for usage, Stephen.

Judy

Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: Hastings execution in *Daughter of Time*

Stephen Lark wrote:

I have noticed him described as "the late", with regard to his position soon
after 13th. This would make him dead if that phrase meant the same in 1483
but could it not just mean "the former"?

I think nowadays, "the former" usually denotes a position held by somone
still living, while "the late" almost always refers to a position held by
someone who is deceased. Ar rhe same time I seem to recall, perhaps in
televised Parliamentary debates?, the present-day use of "the late" to refer
to a position recently held by a still-living person. Although, to be
completely honest, the reference may have been "lately" rather than "the
late", which, as far as I know, hasn't the same connotation at all as "the
late".
Another research project!

Annette Carson wrote:
>
> Mediaeval usage of the term "the late" and its mediaeval Latin equivalent "nuper" is a thorny problem which I have canvassed with scholars of Latin and of M.E., and even with the compilers of an ongoing dictionary project. <snip> In M.E. sometimes "the late" means deceased and sometimes it means "the former but still living". <snip>

Carol responds:

If I recall correctly, Richard's list of traitors refers to Jasper Tudor, very much alive at the time, as "late Earl of Pembroke" (meaning that Jasper had once been Earl of Pembroke but had forfeited his title through treason to Edward IV).

Carol

Brilliant!

I have also seen reconstructions of the announcement: "Ladies and gentlemen, the late Marilyn Monroe" - she was unpunctual and alive, if not for long.

----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:57 PM
Subject: "Late" meaning "former," not "deceased" (Was: Hastings' execution)





Annette Carson wrote:
>
> Mediaeval usage of the term "the late" and its mediaeval Latin equivalent "nuper" is a thorny problem which I have canvassed with scholars of Latin and of M.E., and even with the compilers of an ongoing dictionary project. <snip> In M.E. sometimes "the late" means deceased and sometimes it means "the former but still living". <snip>

Carol responds:

If I recall correctly, Richard's list of traitors refers to Jasper Tudor, very much alive at the time, as "late Earl of Pembroke" (meaning that Jasper had once been Earl of Pembroke but had forfeited his title through treason to Edward IV).

Carol