Annes marriage with Richard….

Someone mentioned in a new book, that Anne had a terrible time married to Richard. Can someone list a series of points, to this effect? I assumed her early years with him, in the North, were happy. I do like to think that they both did enjoy a span of happy times, considering the end&.Thanks!!!! Carol D.

Carol Darling wrote:
>
> Someone mentioned in a new book, that Anne had a terrible time married to Richard. Can someone list a series of points, to this effect? I assumed her early years with him, in the North, were happy. I do like to think that they both did enjoy a span of happy times, considering the end….Thanks!!!! Carol D.

Carol T responds:

I thought that we already discussed this point, but maybe we only mentioned some of the novels that present that idea. What evidence we have goes against it.

As you know, Richard and Anne were first cousins once removed and spent quite a few of their early years together at Middleham. At one of his feasts, Warwick placed the young Richard with Anne, Isabel, the countess, and Richard's older sister, Elizabeth, Countess of Suffolk--a family grouping, as Kendall pointed out. (Let's hope that Richard wasn't embarrassed to be the only male at the table!)

Richard rescued her from George of Clarence in the famous kitchen maid episode and then placed her with great respect for her feelings and modesty in sanctuary where she would be safe from George until he could make the arrangements to marry her. He seems to have married her with only one papal dispensation (recently discovered), but without waiting for the all important dispensation to marry his first cousin once removed--and she certainly agreed to the marriage or it could not have been performed.

They returned to Middleham, which had been home to both of them, and Richard brought Anne's mother out of sanctuary to live with them. (I'll say nothing about the countess or her lands here.) Anne came rather quickly to London after Richard had been proclaimed Protector, leaving the son she dearly loved to be with her husband. Richard and Anne were crowned together. (Contrast Henry VII, who had himself crowned before his marriage and waited nearly two after he married her and three months after their first son was born to have Elizabeth of York crowned).

Even Mancini says that Richard had a reputation for a spotless personal life, which suggests that he was faithful to Anne after their marriage. (His two illegitimate children appear to have been born or at least conceived before their marriage.) Richard and Anne had only one child whom they both loved and whose death they mourned together. (The Croyland Chronicler described them both as nearly mad in their grief.) Richard could have found some excuse to divorce Anne when she could produce no more children (such as the absence of a full papal dispensation), but he didn't. And he vehemently and publicly denied the rumors that he was planning to marry Elizabeth of York while his wife was still alive (we now know that those rumors were false). He arranged an appropriate funeral for her (in sad contrast with his own).

The only reason for supposing that their marriage was unhappy would be the fact that Anne's father and Richard fought on opposite sides in the Battle of Barnet, but we have no reason to believe that Richard hated Warwick (he seems to have argued against attainting him) or that Anne resented Richard for choosing his brother over his father in those circumstances. It is certainly unlikely that she preferred her first husband, Edward of Lancaster, whom she was forced to marry almost certainly against her wishes, to Richard. Historians like Hicks, who can find no good in Richard and believe that he did everything for the sake of ambition, land, and power, might cause some readers and some novelists to believe that it was a loveless marriage, but what evidence we have indicates the contrary.

If you don't mind a piece of advice, I strongly recommend that you reread Kendall's biography. True, he's not up to date on all points, and I suspect that he's wrong about the bones in the urn belonging to the Princes, but his biography will reassure you on many points and you won't worry about what some novelist says.

Carol T

The Duchess of Suffolk, Richard, Anne and Isobel Nevill shared that table
with Isobel Ingoldisthorpe (John Nevill's wife) and the Countess of
Westmorland. The Countess of Warwick was at a table with the dowager Duchess
of Suffolk and three of her sisters-in-law, Katheryn Hastings, Margaret
countess of Oxford and Alice Fitzhugh. This was the Archbishop of Yorks's
enthronement feast at Cawood.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=mdkBAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepa
ge&q=out%20of%20an%20old%20roll&f=false

But the point is well made, Anne and Richard knew each other. The age
difference would have prevented them from being childhood friends or
playmates, though. On balance of evidence, their marriage does seem to have
been a success, at least until the death of their son.

I don't know that Anne was 'forced' to marry Edward Prince of Wales against
her wishes. The children of nobles, young men and women alike, married who
their parents chose for them. Anne's feelings about this marriage, and about
her first husband, are unknown. Bearing in mind that, had all gone well, it
would have made her queen one day, and bearing in mind that she may well
have been as ambitious as anyone else in her family, she may have welcomed
the marriage. We don't know what she thought of if at all.

(If the above link doesn't take you to where it should, type 'Out of a paper
roll' in the search box.)

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 01:45:05 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Annes marriage with Richard?.






Carol Darling wrote:
>
> Someone mentioned in a new book, that Anne had a terrible time married to
Richard. Can someone list a series of points, to this effect? I assumed her
early years with him, in the North, were happy. I do like to think that they
both did enjoy a span of happy times, considering the end?.Thanks!!!! Carol D.

Carol T responds:

I thought that we already discussed this point, but maybe we only mentioned
some of the novels that present that idea. What evidence we have goes
against it.

As you know, Richard and Anne were first cousins once removed and spent
quite a few of their early years together at Middleham. At one of his
feasts, Warwick placed the young Richard with Anne, Isabel, the countess,
and Richard's older sister, Elizabeth, Countess of Suffolk--a family
grouping, as Kendall pointed out. (Let's hope that Richard wasn't
embarrassed to be the only male at the table!)

Richard rescued her from George of Clarence in the famous kitchen maid
episode and then placed her with great respect for her feelings and modesty
in sanctuary where she would be safe from George until he could make the
arrangements to marry her. He seems to have married her with only one papal
dispensation (recently discovered), but without waiting for the all
important dispensation to marry his first cousin once removed--and she
certainly agreed to the marriage or it could not have been performed.

They returned to Middleham, which had been home to both of them, and Richard
brought Anne's mother out of sanctuary to live with them. (I'll say nothing
about the countess or her lands here.) Anne came rather quickly to London
after Richard had been proclaimed Protector, leaving the son she dearly
loved to be with her husband. Richard and Anne were crowned together.
(Contrast Henry VII, who had himself crowned before his marriage and waited
nearly two after he married her and three months after their first son was
born to have Elizabeth of York crowned).

Even Mancini says that Richard had a reputation for a spotless personal
life, which suggests that he was faithful to Anne after their marriage. (His
two illegitimate children appear to have been born or at least conceived
before their marriage.) Richard and Anne had only one child whom they both
loved and whose death they mourned together. (The Croyland Chronicler
described them both as nearly mad in their grief.) Richard could have found
some excuse to divorce Anne when she could produce no more children (such as
the absence of a full papal dispensation), but he didn't. And he vehemently
and publicly denied the rumors that he was planning to marry Elizabeth of
York while his wife was still alive (we now know that those rumors were
false). He arranged an appropriate funeral for her (in sad contrast with his
own).

The only reason for supposing that their marriage was unhappy would be the
fact that Anne's father and Richard fought on opposite sides in the Battle
of Barnet, but we have no reason to believe that Richard hated Warwick (he
seems to have argued against attainting him) or that Anne resented Richard
for choosing his brother over his father in those circumstances. It is
certainly unlikely that she preferred her first husband, Edward of
Lancaster, whom she was forced to marry almost certainly against her wishes,
to Richard. Historians like Hicks, who can find no good in Richard and
believe that he did everything for the sake of ambition, land, and power,
might cause some readers and some novelists to believe that it was a
loveless marriage, but what evidence we have indicates the contrary.

If you don't mind a piece of advice, I strongly recommend that you reread
Kendall's biography. True, he's not up to date on all points, and I suspect
that he's wrong about the bones in the urn belonging to the Princes, but his
biography will reassure you on many points and you won't worry about what
some novelist says.

Carol T

Karen wrote:
>
> The Duchess of Suffolk, Richard, Anne and Isobel Nevill shared that table with Isobel Ingoldisthorpe (John Nevill's wife) and the Countess of Westmorland. <snip>

> But the point is well made, Anne and Richard knew each other. The age
> difference would have prevented them from being childhood friends or
> playmates, though. On balance of evidence, their marriage does seem to have been a success, at least until the death of their son.
>
> I don't know that Anne was 'forced' to marry Edward Prince of Wales against her wishes. The children of nobles, young men and women alike, married who their parents chose for them. Anne's feelings about this marriage, and about her first husband, are unknown. Bearing in mind that, had all gone well, it would have made her queen one day, and bearing in mind that she may well have been as ambitious as anyone else in her family, she may have welcomed the marriage. We don't know what she thought of if at all.

Carol responds:

Thanks for the correction regarding the people at the table. I was writing from memory. But thanks for agreeing with the point despite the error in details!

Regarding Anne's feelings about her first marriage, I'm obviously speculating, but I don't think that Anne would have been quite so complacent about being used to further her father's ambitions in this particular instance. She had already seen her sister Isabel marry Richard's brother George, and she may have anticipated a similar marriage for herself with Richard (for her father's political gain, of course, but at least she knew Richard). If so, that expectation would have been uprooted by her father's sudden rapprochement with a woman whom he had long considered an enemy. (As an authority on the Nevilles, you can probably tell me whether there's any basis to the often-repeated contention that he had called Margaret unsavory names, challenged the legitimacy of her son, and regarded her as responsible for the deaths of his father and brother.) My impression is that he had always hated her; certainly, he had fought against her for as long as Anne could remember. The idea of marrying her son so that her father could join Margaret in battle against her Yorkist cousins (especially Richard, whom she knew) must have been disturbing. Her grief after Barnet (not for Edward of Lancaster but for her father and her uncle) must have been unbearable, especially knowing whom they died rebelling against.

All speculation, I know, but if the one characterization we have of Edward of Lancaster is accurate ("This boy speaks of nothing except war and cutting off heads," to quote from memory) he marriage to him, whether or not it was consummated, could not have been happy. He would, I suspect, have shared his mother's view of her father, and we know that she was a very haughty and most reluctant ally.

Carol

Sorry, Carol, I hadn't meant to correct you, just give information you might
not have had and point you to the best record of the archbishop's feast that
there is.

Warwick does seem to have been behind the nasty gossip about Margaret, he
really was a master of spin. (Now that's spin for you!) Pollard suggests
that it wasn't just the same old self-seeking, or being terminally annoyed
with Edward, that turned him to Margaret of Anjou and Henry VI. He allows
that there might have been a genuine change of heart there, about deposing a
king, with the hopes that went with Edward's reign, and realising maybe he'd
helped to make things worse. I don't know where I stand on that one just
yet, but it's an interesting idea.

The Edward of Lancaster quote refers to him as a seven year old boy and ends
with (and I'm doing this from memory) 'as if he were already king'. He also
grew up in an atmosphere of war. An fb friend of mine has a four year old
who runs around shouting 'Death to the Lancastrians!'. That probably
shouldn't be held against him as he grows up! There's so very little to go
on re the young Prince of Wales. Bits of that point to a quite serious boy.
He wrote a letter ('in my own hand') to (iirc) John Fortescue. Susan
Higginbotham blogged about it some time ago. It seems that Anne was happy to
marry Richard, but we don't have anything to go on regarding her feelings
(or lack) for her first husband.

I'm not quite an authority on the Nevills, but thanks for the vote of
confidence!

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 02:35:22 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Annes marriage with Richard?.






Karen wrote:
>
> The Duchess of Suffolk, Richard, Anne and Isobel Nevill shared that table with
Isobel Ingoldisthorpe (John Nevill's wife) and the Countess of Westmorland.
<snip>

> But the point is well made, Anne and Richard knew each other. The age
> difference would have prevented them from being childhood friends or
> playmates, though. On balance of evidence, their marriage does seem to have
been a success, at least until the death of their son.
>
> I don't know that Anne was 'forced' to marry Edward Prince of Wales against
her wishes. The children of nobles, young men and women alike, married who their
parents chose for them. Anne's feelings about this marriage, and about her first
husband, are unknown. Bearing in mind that, had all gone well, it would have
made her queen one day, and bearing in mind that she may well have been as
ambitious as anyone else in her family, she may have welcomed the marriage. We
don't know what she thought of if at all.

Carol responds:

Thanks for the correction regarding the people at the table. I was writing
from memory. But thanks for agreeing with the point despite the error in
details!

Regarding Anne's feelings about her first marriage, I'm obviously
speculating, but I don't think that Anne would have been quite so complacent
about being used to further her father's ambitions in this particular
instance. She had already seen her sister Isabel marry Richard's brother
George, and she may have anticipated a similar marriage for herself with
Richard (for her father's political gain, of course, but at least she knew
Richard). If so, that expectation would have been uprooted by her father's
sudden rapprochement with a woman whom he had long considered an enemy. (As
an authority on the Nevilles, you can probably tell me whether there's any
basis to the often-repeated contention that he had called Margaret unsavory
names, challenged the legitimacy of her son, and regarded her as responsible
for the deaths of his father and brother.) My impression is that he had
always hated her; certainly, he had fought against her for as long as Anne
could remember. The idea of marrying her son so that her father could join
Margaret in battle against her Yorkist cousins (especially Richard, whom she
knew) must have been disturbing. Her grief after Barnet (not for Edward of
Lancaster but for her father and her uncle) must have been unbearable,
especially knowing whom they died rebelling against.

All speculation, I know, but if the one characterization we have of Edward
of Lancaster is accurate ("This boy speaks of nothing except war and cutting
off heads," to quote from memory) he marriage to him, whether or not it was
consummated, could not have been happy. He would, I suspect, have shared his
mother's view of her father, and we know that she was a very haughty and
most reluctant ally.

Carol

Another hint of compatibility is noted in _Richard III's Books_, by Anne
Sutton and Livia Fuchs. This is a lovely study of the books known to have
belonged to Richard. At least one of them is signed by Anne and Richard
together, which suggests a mutual interest in the life of the particular
saint (I forget which one).

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 9:45 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Carol Darling wrote:
> >
> > Someone mentioned in a new book, that Anne had a terrible time married
> to Richard. Can someone list a series of points, to this effect? I assumed
> her early years with him, in the North, were happy. I do like to think that
> they both did enjoy a span of happy times, considering the endý.Thanks!!!!
> Carol D.
>
> Carol T responds:
>
> I thought that we already discussed this point, but maybe we only
> mentioned some of the novels that present that idea. What evidence we have
> goes against it.
>
> As you know, Richard and Anne were first cousins once removed and spent
> quite a few of their early years together at Middleham. At one of his
> feasts, Warwick placed the young Richard with Anne, Isabel, the countess,
> and Richard's older sister, Elizabeth, Countess of Suffolk--a family
> grouping, as Kendall pointed out. (Let's hope that Richard wasn't
> embarrassed to be the only male at the table!)
>
> Richard rescued her from George of Clarence in the famous kitchen maid
> episode and then placed her with great respect for her feelings and modesty
> in sanctuary where she would be safe from George until he could make the
> arrangements to marry her. He seems to have married her with only one papal
> dispensation (recently discovered), but without waiting for the all
> important dispensation to marry his first cousin once removed--and she
> certainly agreed to the marriage or it could not have been performed.
>
> They returned to Middleham, which had been home to both of them, and
> Richard brought Anne's mother out of sanctuary to live with them. (I'll say
> nothing about the countess or her lands here.) Anne came rather quickly to
> London after Richard had been proclaimed Protector, leaving the son she
> dearly loved to be with her husband. Richard and Anne were crowned
> together. (Contrast Henry VII, who had himself crowned before his marriage
> and waited nearly two after he married her and three months after their
> first son was born to have Elizabeth of York crowned).
>
> Even Mancini says that Richard had a reputation for a spotless personal
> life, which suggests that he was faithful to Anne after their marriage.
> (His two illegitimate children appear to have been born or at least
> conceived before their marriage.) Richard and Anne had only one child whom
> they both loved and whose death they mourned together. (The Croyland
> Chronicler described them both as nearly mad in their grief.) Richard could
> have found some excuse to divorce Anne when she could produce no more
> children (such as the absence of a full papal dispensation), but he didn't.
> And he vehemently and publicly denied the rumors that he was planning to
> marry Elizabeth of York while his wife was still alive (we now know that
> those rumors were false). He arranged an appropriate funeral for her (in
> sad contrast with his own).
>
> The only reason for supposing that their marriage was unhappy would be the
> fact that Anne's father and Richard fought on opposite sides in the Battle
> of Barnet, but we have no reason to believe that Richard hated Warwick (he
> seems to have argued against attainting him) or that Anne resented Richard
> for choosing his brother over his father in those circumstances. It is
> certainly unlikely that she preferred her first husband, Edward of
> Lancaster, whom she was forced to marry almost certainly against her
> wishes, to Richard. Historians like Hicks, who can find no good in Richard
> and believe that he did everything for the sake of ambition, land, and
> power, might cause some readers and some novelists to believe that it was a
> loveless marriage, but what evidence we have indicates the contrary.
>
> If you don't mind a piece of advice, I strongly recommend that you reread
> Kendall's biography. True, he's not up to date on all points, and I suspect
> that he's wrong about the bones in the urn belonging to the Princes, but
> his biography will reassure you on many points and you won't worry about
> what some novelist says.
>
> Carol T
>
>
>

Its these little touches, so personal, that , to me, speak volumes about Richard and Anne's married life....Does anyone know any more...? I am trying to remember correctly but I remember something like "to my beloved Consort" regarding a gift of some sort Richard made to Anne....Eileen

--- In , Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>
> Another hint of compatibility is noted in _Richard III's Books_, by Anne
> Sutton and Livia Fuchs. This is a lovely study of the books known to have
> belonged to Richard. At least one of them is signed by Anne and Richard
> together, which suggests a mutual interest in the life of the particular
> saint (I forget which one).
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 9:45 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Carol Darling wrote:
> > >
> > > Someone mentioned in a new book, that Anne had a terrible time married
> > to Richard. Can someone list a series of points, to this effect? I assumed
> > her early years with him, in the North, were happy. I do like to think that
> > they both did enjoy a span of happy times, considering the end….Thanks!!!!
> > Carol D.
> >
> > Carol T responds:
> >
> > I thought that we already discussed this point, but maybe we only
> > mentioned some of the novels that present that idea. What evidence we have
> > goes against it.
> >
> > As you know, Richard and Anne were first cousins once removed and spent
> > quite a few of their early years together at Middleham. At one of his
> > feasts, Warwick placed the young Richard with Anne, Isabel, the countess,
> > and Richard's older sister, Elizabeth, Countess of Suffolk--a family
> > grouping, as Kendall pointed out. (Let's hope that Richard wasn't
> > embarrassed to be the only male at the table!)
> >
> > Richard rescued her from George of Clarence in the famous kitchen maid
> > episode and then placed her with great respect for her feelings and modesty
> > in sanctuary where she would be safe from George until he could make the
> > arrangements to marry her. He seems to have married her with only one papal
> > dispensation (recently discovered), but without waiting for the all
> > important dispensation to marry his first cousin once removed--and she
> > certainly agreed to the marriage or it could not have been performed.
> >
> > They returned to Middleham, which had been home to both of them, and
> > Richard brought Anne's mother out of sanctuary to live with them. (I'll say
> > nothing about the countess or her lands here.) Anne came rather quickly to
> > London after Richard had been proclaimed Protector, leaving the son she
> > dearly loved to be with her husband. Richard and Anne were crowned
> > together. (Contrast Henry VII, who had himself crowned before his marriage
> > and waited nearly two after he married her and three months after their
> > first son was born to have Elizabeth of York crowned).
> >
> > Even Mancini says that Richard had a reputation for a spotless personal
> > life, which suggests that he was faithful to Anne after their marriage.
> > (His two illegitimate children appear to have been born or at least
> > conceived before their marriage.) Richard and Anne had only one child whom
> > they both loved and whose death they mourned together. (The Croyland
> > Chronicler described them both as nearly mad in their grief.) Richard could
> > have found some excuse to divorce Anne when she could produce no more
> > children (such as the absence of a full papal dispensation), but he didn't.
> > And he vehemently and publicly denied the rumors that he was planning to
> > marry Elizabeth of York while his wife was still alive (we now know that
> > those rumors were false). He arranged an appropriate funeral for her (in
> > sad contrast with his own).
> >
> > The only reason for supposing that their marriage was unhappy would be the
> > fact that Anne's father and Richard fought on opposite sides in the Battle
> > of Barnet, but we have no reason to believe that Richard hated Warwick (he
> > seems to have argued against attainting him) or that Anne resented Richard
> > for choosing his brother over his father in those circumstances. It is
> > certainly unlikely that she preferred her first husband, Edward of
> > Lancaster, whom she was forced to marry almost certainly against her
> > wishes, to Richard. Historians like Hicks, who can find no good in Richard
> > and believe that he did everything for the sake of ambition, land, and
> > power, might cause some readers and some novelists to believe that it was a
> > loveless marriage, but what evidence we have indicates the contrary.
> >
> > If you don't mind a piece of advice, I strongly recommend that you reread
> > Kendall's biography. True, he's not up to date on all points, and I suspect
> > that he's wrong about the bones in the urn belonging to the Princes, but
> > his biography will reassure you on many points and you won't worry about
> > what some novelist says.
> >
> > Carol T
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>