Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 18:35:09
Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
Carol
as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
Carol
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 19:15:41
I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
George
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
> By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
> For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
> I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
> Carol
>
>
George
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
> By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
> For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
> I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
> Carol
>
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 19:28:45
If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> George
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> >
> > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> >
> > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> >
> > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> George
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> >
> > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> >
> > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> >
> > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 19:48:35
I don't think so. The insuperable stumblig block for me with the sweating sickness theory is that sweeating sickness was such an acute illness, not like flu or even malaria - it killed within 24-48 hours. I just cannot conceive of a sufferer donning armour and leading a battle charge.
Marie
--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
>
> --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> >
> > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > George
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > >
> > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > >
> > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Marie
--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
>
> --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> >
> > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > George
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > >
> > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > >
> > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 19:53:27
Yes..In one of the fictional books...was it The Sunne in Splendour?....just before the end...Richard has developed a cough which is worrying those around him...and you are left wondering had he caught TB from Anne....It is feasible I suppose......Eileen
--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think so. The insuperable stumblig block for me with the sweating sickness theory is that sweeating sickness was such an acute illness, not like flu or even malaria - it killed within 24-48 hours. I just cannot conceive of a sufferer donning armour and leading a battle charge.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
> >
> > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > > George
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > > >
> > > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think so. The insuperable stumblig block for me with the sweating sickness theory is that sweeating sickness was such an acute illness, not like flu or even malaria - it killed within 24-48 hours. I just cannot conceive of a sufferer donning armour and leading a battle charge.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
> >
> > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > > George
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > > >
> > > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 20:02:06
Ah, but whatever The Sweat Anglaise was, it came and went, several times, with differing degrees of lethality....
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
George
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
> By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
> For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
> I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
> Carol
>
>
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
George
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
> By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
> For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
> I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
> Carol
>
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 20:02:18
> If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
Who can say? He may or may not have been ill and, if he were, a sudden burst of adrenalin can accomplish a lot. And it's not as if he were fighting all morning. The chronology is very uncertain, but it seems to have been a brief battle. Ashdown-Hill - and I'm merely reporting rather than agreeing - has the first clash at 8.30, the charge at 9 and Richard dead by 9.15.
Jonathan
--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
>
> --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> >
> > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > George
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > >
> > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > >
> > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Who can say? He may or may not have been ill and, if he were, a sudden burst of adrenalin can accomplish a lot. And it's not as if he were fighting all morning. The chronology is very uncertain, but it seems to have been a brief battle. Ashdown-Hill - and I'm merely reporting rather than agreeing - has the first clash at 8.30, the charge at 9 and Richard dead by 9.15.
Jonathan
--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
>
> --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> >
> > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > George
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > >
> > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > >
> > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 20:08:27
In the blink of an eye....all over.
Ashdown-Hill - and I'm merely reporting rather than agreeing - has the first clash at 8.30, the charge at 9 and Richard dead by 9.15.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
> >
> > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > > George
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > > >
> > > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Ashdown-Hill - and I'm merely reporting rather than agreeing - has the first clash at 8.30, the charge at 9 and Richard dead by 9.15.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@> wrote:
> >
> > If Richard been suffering from some sort of sickness that day would he have been able to fight so effectively/fiercely as he did. He unhorsed Sir John Cheyney (spelling?) who was supposed to be a giant of a man...and died in the thickest of the battle fighting manfully it is written...Eileen
> >
> > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
> > > George
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On Oct 28, 2012, at 2:35 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> > > > as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> > > >
> > > > For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 20:26:47
George Butterfield <wrote:
>
> I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
Carol responds:
I tend to agree. However, Ashdown0Hill cited this source only with the comment that "some scholars" saw a connection with the hanta virus. His primary source was, as I indicated earlier, www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm, which says nothing whatever about the hanta virus and instead describes the various outbreaks of this illness (including the badly timed one at the same time as Bosworth) and the symptoms, which Ashdown-Hill also describes and ties in with the accounts of Richard at Bosworth:
www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm The article distinguishes the sweating sickness from other epidemics.
Here is the most relevant portion:
"Symptoms
"The symptoms as described by Caius and others were as follows. The disease began very suddenly with a sense of apprehension, followed by cold shivers (sometimes very violent), giddiness, headache and severe pains in the neck, shoulders and limbs, with great prostration. After the cold stage, which might last from half-an-hour to three hours, followed the stage of heat and sweating. The characteristic sweat broke out suddenly, and, as it seemed to those accustomed to the disease, without any obvious cause. With the sweat, or after that was poured out, came a sense of heat, and with this headache and delirium, rapid pulse and intense thirst. Palpitation and pain in the heart were frequent symptoms. No eruption of any kind on the skin was generally observed; Caius makes no allusion to such a symptom. In the later stages there was either general prostration and collapse, or an irresistible tendency to sleep, which was thought to be fatal if the patient were permitted to give way to it. The malady was remarkably rapid in its course, being sometimes fatal even in two or three hours, and some patients died in less than that time. More commonly it was protracted to a period of twelve to twenty-four hours, beyond which it rarely lasted. Those who survived for twenty-four hours were considered safe.
"The disease, unlike the plague, was not especially fatal to the poor, but rather, as Caius affirms, attacked the richer sort and those who were free livers according to the custom of England in those days. "They which had this sweat sore with peril of death were either men of wealth, ease or welfare, or of the poorer sort, such as were idle persons, good ale drinkers and taverne haunters."
"Causes.
"Some attributed the disease to the English climate, its moisture and its fogs, or to the intemperate habits of the English people, and to the frightful want of cleanliness in their houses and surroundings which is noticed by Erasmus in a well-known passage, and about which Caius is equally explicit. But we must conclude that climate, season, and manner of life were not adequate, either separately or collectively, to produce the disease, though each may have acted sometimes as a predisposing cause. The sweating-sickness was in fact, to use modern language, a specific infective disease, in the same sense as plague, typhus, scarlet fever, or malaria."
The Caius mentioned in the article is John Caius, who wrote "A Boke or Counseill against the Disease Commonly Called the Sweate, or Sweating Sicknesse (London, 1552). I won't cite his other sources, which include Bacon, but you can easily find them by clicking on the link I provided.
Carol
>
> I would suggest that hunta virus would be extremely unlikely as it is found in the SW of the USA in mouse urine to my knowledge it did not come over to the old world , however there are several common Medieval ailments that could cause similar symptoms, smallpox , yellow fever malaria even food poisoning were not uncommon when hygiene and sanitation were not understood The return of the crusaders brought these and others back to Europe and would have still been very prevalent during his lifetime
Carol responds:
I tend to agree. However, Ashdown0Hill cited this source only with the comment that "some scholars" saw a connection with the hanta virus. His primary source was, as I indicated earlier, www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm, which says nothing whatever about the hanta virus and instead describes the various outbreaks of this illness (including the badly timed one at the same time as Bosworth) and the symptoms, which Ashdown-Hill also describes and ties in with the accounts of Richard at Bosworth:
www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm The article distinguishes the sweating sickness from other epidemics.
Here is the most relevant portion:
"Symptoms
"The symptoms as described by Caius and others were as follows. The disease began very suddenly with a sense of apprehension, followed by cold shivers (sometimes very violent), giddiness, headache and severe pains in the neck, shoulders and limbs, with great prostration. After the cold stage, which might last from half-an-hour to three hours, followed the stage of heat and sweating. The characteristic sweat broke out suddenly, and, as it seemed to those accustomed to the disease, without any obvious cause. With the sweat, or after that was poured out, came a sense of heat, and with this headache and delirium, rapid pulse and intense thirst. Palpitation and pain in the heart were frequent symptoms. No eruption of any kind on the skin was generally observed; Caius makes no allusion to such a symptom. In the later stages there was either general prostration and collapse, or an irresistible tendency to sleep, which was thought to be fatal if the patient were permitted to give way to it. The malady was remarkably rapid in its course, being sometimes fatal even in two or three hours, and some patients died in less than that time. More commonly it was protracted to a period of twelve to twenty-four hours, beyond which it rarely lasted. Those who survived for twenty-four hours were considered safe.
"The disease, unlike the plague, was not especially fatal to the poor, but rather, as Caius affirms, attacked the richer sort and those who were free livers according to the custom of England in those days. "They which had this sweat sore with peril of death were either men of wealth, ease or welfare, or of the poorer sort, such as were idle persons, good ale drinkers and taverne haunters."
"Causes.
"Some attributed the disease to the English climate, its moisture and its fogs, or to the intemperate habits of the English people, and to the frightful want of cleanliness in their houses and surroundings which is noticed by Erasmus in a well-known passage, and about which Caius is equally explicit. But we must conclude that climate, season, and manner of life were not adequate, either separately or collectively, to produce the disease, though each may have acted sometimes as a predisposing cause. The sweating-sickness was in fact, to use modern language, a specific infective disease, in the same sense as plague, typhus, scarlet fever, or malaria."
The Caius mentioned in the article is John Caius, who wrote "A Boke or Counseill against the Disease Commonly Called the Sweate, or Sweating Sicknesse (London, 1552). I won't cite his other sources, which include Bacon, but you can easily find them by clicking on the link I provided.
Carol
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 21:00:41
Eileen wrote:
>
> Yes..In one of the fictional books...was it The Sunne in Splendour?....just before the end...Richard has developed a cough which is worrying those around him...and you are left wondering had he caught TB from Anne....It is feasible I suppose......Eileen
Carol responds:
Definitely not "Sunne in Splendour"!
Carol
>
> Yes..In one of the fictional books...was it The Sunne in Splendour?....just before the end...Richard has developed a cough which is worrying those around him...and you are left wondering had he caught TB from Anne....It is feasible I suppose......Eileen
Carol responds:
Definitely not "Sunne in Splendour"!
Carol
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 21:14:32
I'll take a peep at the ones I have.....
It may have been Under the Hog....Eileen
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Eileen wrote:
> >
> > Yes..In one of the fictional books...was it The Sunne in Splendour?....just before the end...Richard has developed a cough which is worrying those around him...and you are left wondering had he caught TB from Anne....It is feasible I suppose......Eileen
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Definitely not "Sunne in Splendour"!
>
> Carol
>
It may have been Under the Hog....Eileen
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Eileen wrote:
> >
> > Yes..In one of the fictional books...was it The Sunne in Splendour?....just before the end...Richard has developed a cough which is worrying those around him...and you are left wondering had he caught TB from Anne....It is feasible I suppose......Eileen
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Definitely not "Sunne in Splendour"!
>
> Carol
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-28 21:15:53
Jonathan wrote:
>
> Who can say? He may or may not have been ill and, if he were, a sudden burst of adrenalin can accomplish a lot. And it's not as if he were fighting all morning. The chronology is very uncertain, but it seems to have been a brief battle. Ashdown-Hill - and I'm merely reporting rather than agreeing - has the first clash at 8.30, the charge at 9 and Richard dead by 9.15.
Carol responds:
I agree with you about the burst of adrenaline. I once lifted a Ford Galaxy out of a ditch and back onto a dirt road because I was alone in a forest, and I weighed 129 pounds at the time. It's amazing what a burst of adrenaline can accomplish! And I agree with you that Ashdown-Hill's sweating sickness idea, though, is interesting and his arguments are worth considering.
But I definitely disagree with him about the details of the battle since he has Norfolk and Oxford still fighting after Richard's death. I'm quite sure that, whether Richard was ill, depressed, or psyched for the battle and hoping for a new marriage, it was Norfolk's death that precipitated his apparently desperate charge.
Carol
>
> Who can say? He may or may not have been ill and, if he were, a sudden burst of adrenalin can accomplish a lot. And it's not as if he were fighting all morning. The chronology is very uncertain, but it seems to have been a brief battle. Ashdown-Hill - and I'm merely reporting rather than agreeing - has the first clash at 8.30, the charge at 9 and Richard dead by 9.15.
Carol responds:
I agree with you about the burst of adrenaline. I once lifted a Ford Galaxy out of a ditch and back onto a dirt road because I was alone in a forest, and I weighed 129 pounds at the time. It's amazing what a burst of adrenaline can accomplish! And I agree with you that Ashdown-Hill's sweating sickness idea, though, is interesting and his arguments are worth considering.
But I definitely disagree with him about the details of the battle since he has Norfolk and Oxford still fighting after Richard's death. I'm quite sure that, whether Richard was ill, depressed, or psyched for the battle and hoping for a new marriage, it was Norfolk's death that precipitated his apparently desperate charge.
Carol
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-29 14:27:21
Thanks for the link! I read
Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
Just a thought.
Sheffe
>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
>Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
>as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
>By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
>For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
>I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>
Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
Just a thought.
Sheffe
>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
>Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
>as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
>By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
>For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
>I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-29 15:59:07
My recollection of my notes regarding the idea the rich were disproportionately affected is that certainly for later outbreaks (up until 1551), examination of Parish records (which only came into being in the 1530s) show plenty of poor, rural people died of The Sweat. But I'm at a disadvantage in that I tried to find my notes (among 1200 sheets of paper), and only succeeded in digging up a couple "germane" to the issue ;-)
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
Thanks for the link! I read
Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
Just a thought.
Sheffe
>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
>Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
>as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
>By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
>For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
>I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
Thanks for the link! I read
Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
Just a thought.
Sheffe
>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
>Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
>as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>
>By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>
>For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>
>I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-29 17:25:30
I imagine the idea that the rich were disproportionately affected comes from the fact that we know most about the rich. Parish registers sound a good source for gauging the effect on the poor of the later outbreaks.
Marie
--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> My recollection of my notes regarding the idea the rich were disproportionately affected is that certainly for later outbreaks (up until 1551), examination of Parish records (which only came into being in the 1530s) show plenty of poor, rural people died of The Sweat. But I'm at a disadvantage in that I tried to find my notes (among 1200 sheets of paper), and only succeeded in digging up a couple "germane" to the issue ;-)
>
> Judy
> Â
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
> Â
> Thanks for the link! I read
>
> Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
>
> and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
> Just a thought.
> Sheffe
>
> >________________________________
> > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> >To:
> >Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
> >Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
> >
> >
> >Â
> >Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> >as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> >
> >By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> >
> >For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> >
> >I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> >
> >Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Marie
--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> My recollection of my notes regarding the idea the rich were disproportionately affected is that certainly for later outbreaks (up until 1551), examination of Parish records (which only came into being in the 1530s) show plenty of poor, rural people died of The Sweat. But I'm at a disadvantage in that I tried to find my notes (among 1200 sheets of paper), and only succeeded in digging up a couple "germane" to the issue ;-)
>
> Judy
> Â
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
> Â
> Thanks for the link! I read
>
> Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
>
> and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
> Just a thought.
> Sheffe
>
> >________________________________
> > From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> >To:
> >Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
> >Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
> >
> >
> >Â
> >Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
> >as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
> >
> >By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
> >
> >For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
> >
> >I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
> >
> >Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
2012-10-30 00:40:11
I read a couple of things after having posted that last, and it looks as though recent research found that yes, plenty of the poor died too, but more in the country than in the city.
Here are Carol's links:
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 Rita Putatanda's article is not bad, but she cites no sources at all.
http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm This has more links at the bottom.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1043971/?page=1%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 Just three pages for an overview of the relevant literature with loads of citations.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4455857?uid=3739864&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101321491631%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 This article concentrates on the 1551 outbreak in Chester, and is only available for cash, or if you have access to a JSTOR member library.
>________________________________
> From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 11:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>My recollection of my notes regarding the idea the rich were disproportionately affected is that certainly for later outbreaks (up until 1551), examination of Parish records (which only came into being in the 1530s) show plenty of poor, rural people died of The Sweat. But I'm at a disadvantage in that I tried to find my notes (among 1200 sheets of paper), and only succeeded in digging up a couple "germane" to the issue ;-)
>
>Judy
>
>Loyaulte me lie
>
>________________________________
>From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 9:27 AM
>Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>Thanks for the link! I read
>
>Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
>
>and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
>Just a thought.
>Sheffe
>
>>________________________________
>> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>>To:
>>Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
>>Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>>
>>
>>
>>Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
>>as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>>
>>By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>>
>>For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>>
>>I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>>
>>Carol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Here are Carol's links:
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 Rita Putatanda's article is not bad, but she cites no sources at all.
http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm This has more links at the bottom.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1043971/?page=1%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 Just three pages for an overview of the relevant literature with loads of citations.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4455857?uid=3739864&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101321491631%c2%a0%c2%a0%c2%a0 This article concentrates on the 1551 outbreak in Chester, and is only available for cash, or if you have access to a JSTOR member library.
>________________________________
> From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 11:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>My recollection of my notes regarding the idea the rich were disproportionately affected is that certainly for later outbreaks (up until 1551), examination of Parish records (which only came into being in the 1530s) show plenty of poor, rural people died of The Sweat. But I'm at a disadvantage in that I tried to find my notes (among 1200 sheets of paper), and only succeeded in digging up a couple "germane" to the issue ;-)
>
>Judy
>
>Loyaulte me lie
>
>________________________________
>From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
>To: "" <>
>Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 9:27 AM
>Subject: Re: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>
>
>
>Thanks for the link! I read
>
>Handbook of Geographical and Historical Pathology, trans. by Creighton (New Syd. Soc., 1885).
>
>and am now wondering if the disease was fungal in nature. The author states that the outbreaks occurred after rains, and that people who had more association with soil "those sleeping on the ground or in cellars" were not affected by it. It preyed most on the rich--those, perhaps, who had least resistance to the spores, because of having least exposure?
>Just a thought.
>Sheffe
>
>>________________________________
>> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>>To:
>>Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:35 PM
>>Subject: Sweating sickness and John Ashdown-Hill
>>
>>
>>
>>Ashdown-Hill cites www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/sweatingsickness.htm
>>as the source for much of his information. He also mentions, but apparently doesn't espouse, the idea that sweating sickness was an early form of the hanta virus as proposed in R. Putatunda, published 3/27/2008:www.buzzle.com/articles/sweating-sickness.html
>>
>>By the way, Ashdown-Hill does not reject the theory that Richard was depressed or at least extremely unhappy and disillusioned. He simply postulates the sweating sickness as an alternate or additional explanation for some of the reputed uncharacteristic behavior attributed to Richard at Bosworth, in particularly the seemingly rash charge down the hill to kill Henry Tudor, and for his "drawn countenance." Other elements of the Croyland account, such as the supposed nightmares, absence of Mass and breakfast, etc., he either counters or exposes as spin that later became part of the legend via Vergil.
>>
>>For those who have not read it, I recommend Ashdown-Hill's book, not all of which I agree with, for its insights and new ideas. Like Annette, he attempts to look at these events from a fresh perspective, and the sweating sickness idea should not, I think, be rejected out of hand. It is not as preposterous as I thought when I first encountered it, and Ashdown-Hill presents some cogent arguments.
>>
>>I'm not saying that he's right or even that I'm convinced by his thesis, only that we should not let our preconceptions prevent us from considering his arguments or allow us to condemn them unread. As I said, the sweating sickness idea is in no way incompatible with depression. The illness might have worsened Richard's depression and turned it to fatalism. It's at least worth considering that hypothesis, which certainly beats the Croyland Chronicler's version of events. (Remember how wrong he was about Richard's desire to marry his niece Elizabeth!)
>>
>>Carol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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