Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-30 14:42:27
One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-30 16:27:26
We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
Marie
--- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>
> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>
Marie
--- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>
> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-30 16:40:21
I wholeheartedly agree.
Karen
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:27:25 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass
comercialism
We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
Marie
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>
> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must
mean more than greed.
>
Karen
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:27:25 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass
comercialism
We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
Marie
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>
> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must
mean more than greed.
>
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-30 20:54:23
David Cameron doesn't have a Conservative Government, he is Prime Minister of a Coalition Government with the Liberal Democrats.
--- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>
> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>
--- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>
> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-30 21:14:06
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-30 22:42:44
Perhaps the fact that Anne was interred in Westminster is an indication that
Richard eventually expected to be buried there. I'm not suggesting that he
be buried in the Abbey, however! I think any place would probably be
preferable to the Abbey - maybe even Worksop! LOL!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:14 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than
crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the
evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the
reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true
before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have
bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after
he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a
northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he
would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had
he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
> Marie
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things
must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Richard eventually expected to be buried there. I'm not suggesting that he
be buried in the Abbey, however! I think any place would probably be
preferable to the Abbey - maybe even Worksop! LOL!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:14 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than
crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the
evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the
reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true
before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have
bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after
he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a
northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he
would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had
he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
> Marie
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things
must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-30 23:56:16
There is documentation in York that does state Richard indicated he wished to be buried in York Minster. I agree with Marie though, and do not see why both organizations cannot work together. Both donated and supported funds when they were needed along with the group in York, but the latter organizations get no recognition or acknowledgement, and that is not fair. Surely all the groups who work on the King's behalf should be acknowledged.
________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-31 08:37:27
Thank you, Marie. I couldn't agree more. An ongoing public discussion about where and how can only hurt ALL Ricardian organisations, as well as their individual members.
Renate
--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> >
> > One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> >
>
Renate
--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> >
> > One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> >
>
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-31 08:54:12
HI Paul, I am informed by a very knowledgeable member of the society that you can find information re Richard and York inRichard and the Church in York in Kings and Nobles
in the Late Medieval Period, Barrie Dobson and Ralph Griffiths, its in the Barton Library. I have also just purchased this book so might be able to give you more info soon.
Regards
Christine
________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 21:14
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
in the Late Medieval Period, Barrie Dobson and Ralph Griffiths, its in the Barton Library. I have also just purchased this book so might be able to give you more info soon.
Regards
Christine
________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 21:14
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-31 08:57:23
Hi Johanne, Perhaps Anne was buried in Westminster because events were overtaking Richard at the time.
He could have had her moved when things settled down and negotiations with York Minster had come to fruition.
People were moved in those times ie Richard's father moved from Pontefract to Fotheringhay.
regards
Christine
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 22:42
Subject: RE: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Perhaps the fact that Anne was interred in Westminster is an indication that
Richard eventually expected to be buried there. I'm not suggesting that he
be buried in the Abbey, however! I think any place would probably be
preferable to the Abbey - maybe even Worksop! LOL!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:14 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than
crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the
evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the
reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true
before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have
bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after
he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a
northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he
would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had
he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things
must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
He could have had her moved when things settled down and negotiations with York Minster had come to fruition.
People were moved in those times ie Richard's father moved from Pontefract to Fotheringhay.
regards
Christine
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 22:42
Subject: RE: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Perhaps the fact that Anne was interred in Westminster is an indication that
Richard eventually expected to be buried there. I'm not suggesting that he
be buried in the Abbey, however! I think any place would probably be
preferable to the Abbey - maybe even Worksop! LOL!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:14 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than
crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the
evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the
reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true
before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have
bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after
he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a
northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he
would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had
he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things
must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-31 10:11:53
Furthermore, this is a matter for the Head of State - as Richard was -
rather than the prime minister. I rather doubt that the 'member of
Parliament' - which one was it, what is his/her agenda? - actually knows
anything.
Best wishes
Christine Headley
On 30/10/2012 20:54, ricard1an wrote:
> David Cameron doesn't have a Conservative Government, he is Prime Minister of a Coalition Government with the Liberal Democrats.
> --- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
Best wishes
Christine
Christine Headley
Butterrow, Stroud, Glos
rather than the prime minister. I rather doubt that the 'member of
Parliament' - which one was it, what is his/her agenda? - actually knows
anything.
Best wishes
Christine Headley
On 30/10/2012 20:54, ricard1an wrote:
> David Cameron doesn't have a Conservative Government, he is Prime Minister of a Coalition Government with the Liberal Democrats.
> --- In , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...> wrote:
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
--
Best wishes
Christine
Christine Headley
Butterrow, Stroud, Glos
Death of Anne, R.'s remarriage plans, Anne's burial (was RE Some thi
2012-10-31 12:56:46
Hi, Christine
Yes, that may have been in Richard's mind. Although I was reading John Ashdown-Hill's book, *The Last Days of Richard III* last night, and he has a great deal concerning Anne's last days and Richard's negotiations for a double marriage he to Joana of Portugal and Elizabeth of York to Manuel the Duke of Beja, who was later to become King Manuel I of Portugal. This suggests to me, not unreasonably I think, that Richard may have wanted in particular to get Elizabeth of York safely married and out of the country, and that may be part of the reason that he pursued the match with Joana, who was about his own age, never married and never borne children, as opposed to the much younger (about 14, I think) Infanta Dona Isabel from Spain, who was also the subject of marriage negotiations. In the case of the Spanish Infanta there may not have been the possibility of a double match which would involve Elizabeth of York (at least Ashdown-Hill does not mention a possible double match involving the Spanish Infanta). Ashdown-Hill seems pretty convinced that Anne suffered from tuberculosis, btw.
Here are some passages that are of particular interest regarding these matters:
As a childless and hitherto unmarried princess, thirty-three years of age, her [Joana's] chances of bearing for Richard the all-important son and heir he so badly needed must, in retrospect, be regarded as somewhat questionable. There is no doubt that in terms of age, the fourteen-year-old Spanish Infanta, Dona Isabel do Aragon y Castilla, who shared Richard III's birthday (2 October) but who was eighteen years his junior, would have been a far more promising prospective mother of a future Prince of Wales. (locations 490-498)
The young girl herself was very excited by the proposal, and apparently wrote to her uncle's right-hand man, John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, imploring him to urge the king, on his behalf, to press on with the project. The fact that Elizabeth of York's letter to Norfolk was written as early as mid-February 1484/5 shows that key members of the royal council were already aware of the possibility of a double royal marriage pact with Portugal at least four weeks before Queen Anne Neville breathed her last. But naturally no such plans could proceed until Richard's first consort died, and the fact that Anne was lingering in mortal illness seems to have led the young Elizabeth of York to remark, in a rather thoughtless and unkind way excusable perhaps on the grounds of her youth and her eagerness to be a princess once again that she feared the queen would never die.' (locations 551 -559)
It may also have been some ill-considered, indiscreet remark on the part of Elizabeth of York or some member of her mother's family that led to the leaking out of rumours of marriage plans for both the girl and the king. These rumours were promptly misunderstood. Instead of a dual marriage pact with the house of Avis, what began to be spoken of in England was a single marriage, between Richard III and his niece. Such rumours gave cause for concern, and their circulation was discussed by the royal council. As a result, Sir Richard Ratcliffe and William Catesby . . . told the king to his face that if he did not deny any such purpose' there could be serious consequences. Convinced of the need for some official statement, the king then acted very quickly to scotch this unfortunate misunderstanding. On the Wednesday of Holy Week (30 March), at the Priory of St. John on Clerkenwell, in the presence of the mayor and citizens of London, he publicly and very firmly denied any plans for a marriage between himself and Elizabeth of York. . . A couple of weeks after Easter, on 19 April, he wrote in similar terms to the city of York. Given that his own legitimacy as king depended absolutely upon the bastardy of his late brother's Woodville children, it must have seemed vital to Richard to set the record straight in respect of the unfortunate rumour. (locations 559-577)
In his extensive discussion of royal burials, Ashdown-Hill notes that there is some evidence that the chapel at Windsor was intended to become the burial-place of the York dynasty. It was here that Edward IV was buried, and here that Richard, interestingly, moved the remains of Henry VI from its obscure grave at Chertsey Abbey, who was already becoming the object of some veneration.(locations 1218 et. seq.)
'In the absence of known copies of Richard III's will his intentions concerning his own burial remain unknown . . . [but] Richard may have shared Edward [IV]'s concept of the new foundation [of St. George's Chapel at Windsor Castle] as the mausoleum of the Yorkist dynasty . . . The suggestion has been made that he had Henry [VI] interred in the second bay of the south choir aisle because he had reserved the first bay as his own place of burial.' The fact that Richard chose to bury Queen Anne Neville at Westminster rather than at Windsor is probably not significant. We have already seen that Richard was well aware of the fact that he would have to marry again and produce new heirs. If he did intend his own burial to be in St. George's Chapel, no doubt it would have been his second queen the mother of the new Prince of Wales who would have shared this tomb. (locations (locations 1235 -1243)
In particular, I find the notion that Richard was conducting negotiations about a possible remarriage before Anne departure from this life potentionally very hurtful. I think that, contrary to Ashdown-Hill's assertion, the fact that Elizabeth was aware of a possible match for herself, does not necessarily mean that negotiations had been commenced at that point in regard to a remarriage for Richard. Elizabeth was certainly of a marriageable age, and it appears she may have been a source of gossip and discord at the court, and therefore Richard may have been especially anxious to find a suitable match for her outside of the range of her ability to cause trouble outside of England, in other words.
If Anne was well enough to join in the Christmas celebrations, I doubt if it was certain that her condition was terminal at that point.
Loyaute me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - <mailto:jltournier60@...> jltournier60@...
or <mailto:jltournier@...> jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of C HOLMES
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:57 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Hi Johanne, Perhaps Anne was buried in Westminster because events were overtaking Richard at the time.
He could have had her moved when things settled down and negotiations with York Minster had come to fruition.
People were moved in those times ie Richard's father moved from Pontefract to Fotheringhay.
regards
Christine
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 22:42
Subject: RE: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Perhaps the fact that Anne was interred in Westminster is an indication that
Richard eventually expected to be buried there. I'm not suggesting that he
be buried in the Abbey, however! I think any place would probably be
preferable to the Abbey - maybe even Worksop! LOL!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:14 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than
crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the
evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the
reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true
before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have
bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after
he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a
northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he
would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had
he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things
must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Yes, that may have been in Richard's mind. Although I was reading John Ashdown-Hill's book, *The Last Days of Richard III* last night, and he has a great deal concerning Anne's last days and Richard's negotiations for a double marriage he to Joana of Portugal and Elizabeth of York to Manuel the Duke of Beja, who was later to become King Manuel I of Portugal. This suggests to me, not unreasonably I think, that Richard may have wanted in particular to get Elizabeth of York safely married and out of the country, and that may be part of the reason that he pursued the match with Joana, who was about his own age, never married and never borne children, as opposed to the much younger (about 14, I think) Infanta Dona Isabel from Spain, who was also the subject of marriage negotiations. In the case of the Spanish Infanta there may not have been the possibility of a double match which would involve Elizabeth of York (at least Ashdown-Hill does not mention a possible double match involving the Spanish Infanta). Ashdown-Hill seems pretty convinced that Anne suffered from tuberculosis, btw.
Here are some passages that are of particular interest regarding these matters:
As a childless and hitherto unmarried princess, thirty-three years of age, her [Joana's] chances of bearing for Richard the all-important son and heir he so badly needed must, in retrospect, be regarded as somewhat questionable. There is no doubt that in terms of age, the fourteen-year-old Spanish Infanta, Dona Isabel do Aragon y Castilla, who shared Richard III's birthday (2 October) but who was eighteen years his junior, would have been a far more promising prospective mother of a future Prince of Wales. (locations 490-498)
The young girl herself was very excited by the proposal, and apparently wrote to her uncle's right-hand man, John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, imploring him to urge the king, on his behalf, to press on with the project. The fact that Elizabeth of York's letter to Norfolk was written as early as mid-February 1484/5 shows that key members of the royal council were already aware of the possibility of a double royal marriage pact with Portugal at least four weeks before Queen Anne Neville breathed her last. But naturally no such plans could proceed until Richard's first consort died, and the fact that Anne was lingering in mortal illness seems to have led the young Elizabeth of York to remark, in a rather thoughtless and unkind way excusable perhaps on the grounds of her youth and her eagerness to be a princess once again that she feared the queen would never die.' (locations 551 -559)
It may also have been some ill-considered, indiscreet remark on the part of Elizabeth of York or some member of her mother's family that led to the leaking out of rumours of marriage plans for both the girl and the king. These rumours were promptly misunderstood. Instead of a dual marriage pact with the house of Avis, what began to be spoken of in England was a single marriage, between Richard III and his niece. Such rumours gave cause for concern, and their circulation was discussed by the royal council. As a result, Sir Richard Ratcliffe and William Catesby . . . told the king to his face that if he did not deny any such purpose' there could be serious consequences. Convinced of the need for some official statement, the king then acted very quickly to scotch this unfortunate misunderstanding. On the Wednesday of Holy Week (30 March), at the Priory of St. John on Clerkenwell, in the presence of the mayor and citizens of London, he publicly and very firmly denied any plans for a marriage between himself and Elizabeth of York. . . A couple of weeks after Easter, on 19 April, he wrote in similar terms to the city of York. Given that his own legitimacy as king depended absolutely upon the bastardy of his late brother's Woodville children, it must have seemed vital to Richard to set the record straight in respect of the unfortunate rumour. (locations 559-577)
In his extensive discussion of royal burials, Ashdown-Hill notes that there is some evidence that the chapel at Windsor was intended to become the burial-place of the York dynasty. It was here that Edward IV was buried, and here that Richard, interestingly, moved the remains of Henry VI from its obscure grave at Chertsey Abbey, who was already becoming the object of some veneration.(locations 1218 et. seq.)
'In the absence of known copies of Richard III's will his intentions concerning his own burial remain unknown . . . [but] Richard may have shared Edward [IV]'s concept of the new foundation [of St. George's Chapel at Windsor Castle] as the mausoleum of the Yorkist dynasty . . . The suggestion has been made that he had Henry [VI] interred in the second bay of the south choir aisle because he had reserved the first bay as his own place of burial.' The fact that Richard chose to bury Queen Anne Neville at Westminster rather than at Windsor is probably not significant. We have already seen that Richard was well aware of the fact that he would have to marry again and produce new heirs. If he did intend his own burial to be in St. George's Chapel, no doubt it would have been his second queen the mother of the new Prince of Wales who would have shared this tomb. (locations (locations 1235 -1243)
In particular, I find the notion that Richard was conducting negotiations about a possible remarriage before Anne departure from this life potentionally very hurtful. I think that, contrary to Ashdown-Hill's assertion, the fact that Elizabeth was aware of a possible match for herself, does not necessarily mean that negotiations had been commenced at that point in regard to a remarriage for Richard. Elizabeth was certainly of a marriageable age, and it appears she may have been a source of gossip and discord at the court, and therefore Richard may have been especially anxious to find a suitable match for her outside of the range of her ability to cause trouble outside of England, in other words.
If Anne was well enough to join in the Christmas celebrations, I doubt if it was certain that her condition was terminal at that point.
Loyaute me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - <mailto:jltournier60@...> jltournier60@...
or <mailto:jltournier@...> jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of C HOLMES
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:57 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Hi Johanne, Perhaps Anne was buried in Westminster because events were overtaking Richard at the time.
He could have had her moved when things settled down and negotiations with York Minster had come to fruition.
People were moved in those times ie Richard's father moved from Pontefract to Fotheringhay.
regards
Christine
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2012, 22:42
Subject: RE: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Perhaps the fact that Anne was interred in Westminster is an indication that
Richard eventually expected to be buried there. I'm not suggesting that he
be buried in the Abbey, however! I think any place would probably be
preferable to the Abbey - maybe even Worksop! LOL!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:14 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than
crass comercialism
Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the
evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the
reburial of disinterred bones.
Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true
before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have
bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after
he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a
northern burial!
Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he
would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had
he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
Paul
On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones
would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the
supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII
Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The
problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard
wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I
personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous
offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have
been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "bkohatl" <bkohatl@...>
wrote:
>>
>> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's
Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that
Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's
desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things
must mean more than greed.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-10-31 14:15:17
I think if you researched the records at York, you would find Richard wanted to be buried at York, and of course you would say its best to have him buried at Leicester. Isn't that the original deal all along?
________________________________
From: walkerjaneway <renatemm@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Thank you, Marie. I couldn't agree more. An ongoing public discussion about where and how can only hurt ALL Ricardian organisations, as well as their individual members.
Renate
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> >
> > One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> >
>
________________________________
From: walkerjaneway <renatemm@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
Thank you, Marie. I couldn't agree more. An ongoing public discussion about where and how can only hurt ALL Ricardian organisations, as well as their individual members.
Renate
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> Marie
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> >
> > One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> >
>
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-11-01 07:42:02
brittania97,
could it be that this was intended as reply to another post? I don't see how it refers to my post.
Renate
--- In , Brittany Wynter <brittania97@...> wrote:
>
> I think if you researched the records at York, you would find Richard wanted to be buried at York, and of course you would say its best to have him buried at Leicester. Isn't that the original deal all along?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: walkerjaneway <renatemm@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
>
>
> Â
>
> Thank you, Marie. I couldn't agree more. An ongoing public discussion about where and how can only hurt ALL Ricardian organisations, as well as their individual members.
>
> Renate
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> > Marie
>
could it be that this was intended as reply to another post? I don't see how it refers to my post.
Renate
--- In , Brittany Wynter <brittania97@...> wrote:
>
> I think if you researched the records at York, you would find Richard wanted to be buried at York, and of course you would say its best to have him buried at Leicester. Isn't that the original deal all along?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: walkerjaneway <renatemm@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
>
>
> Â
>
> Thank you, Marie. I couldn't agree more. An ongoing public discussion about where and how can only hurt ALL Ricardian organisations, as well as their individual members.
>
> Renate
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> > Marie
>
Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-11-01 12:07:48
Please could you let us have details of that documentation?
Marie
--- In , Brittany Wynter <brittania97@...> wrote:
>
> There is documentation in York that does state Richard indicated he wished to be buried in York Minster.  I agree with Marie though, and do not see why both organizations cannot work together. Both donated and supported funds when they were needed along with the group in York, but the latter organizations get no recognition or acknowledgement, and that is not fair. Surely all the groups who work on the King's behalf should be acknowledged.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
>
>
> Â
>
> Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
> On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
>
> Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
> Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
> Paul
>
> On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> > We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> >>
> >> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
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Marie
--- In , Brittany Wynter <brittania97@...> wrote:
>
> There is documentation in York that does state Richard indicated he wished to be buried in York Minster.  I agree with Marie though, and do not see why both organizations cannot work together. Both donated and supported funds when they were needed along with the group in York, but the latter organizations get no recognition or acknowledgement, and that is not fair. Surely all the groups who work on the King's behalf should be acknowledged.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
>
>
> Â
>
> Well said Marie. Glad somebody noted I asked the question asking where the evidence that Richard wanted to be buried in York is.
> On top of what you say, there is also the legal matter regarding the reburial of disinterred bones.
>
> Regarding the claims he wanted to be buried inYork. This may have been true before 1483, though there is no proof he did, but after he would hardly have bent over backwards to try to win over the southern lords and gentry after he became king, only to slap them in the face by declaring his desire for a northern burial!
> Than again by 1485 he was looking forward to marriage with Portugal and he would have had to spend the majority of his time in London as king, so had he had any such plans these could, probably would, have changed over time.
> Paul
>
> On 30 Oct 2012, at 16:27, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> > We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> >>
> >> One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
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Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
2012-11-01 12:22:25
Christine,
Please can you give us the references? I thought we only knew that Richard was building a magnificent new chapel there; I wasn't aware the documentation made reference to burial plans; I though that was the surmise of modern historians.
Marie
--- In , Brittany Wynter <brittania97@...> wrote:
>
> I think if you researched the records at York, you would find Richard wanted to be buried at York, and of course you would say its best to have him buried at Leicester. Isn't that the original deal all along?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: walkerjaneway <renatemm@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
>
>
> Â
>
> Thank you, Marie. I couldn't agree more. An ongoing public discussion about where and how can only hurt ALL Ricardian organisations, as well as their individual members.
>
> Renate
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Please can you give us the references? I thought we only knew that Richard was building a magnificent new chapel there; I wasn't aware the documentation made reference to burial plans; I though that was the surmise of modern historians.
Marie
--- In , Brittany Wynter <brittania97@...> wrote:
>
> I think if you researched the records at York, you would find Richard wanted to be buried at York, and of course you would say its best to have him buried at Leicester. Isn't that the original deal all along?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: walkerjaneway <renatemm@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:37 AM
> Subject: Re: Some things matter more than crass comercialism
>
>
> Â
>
> Thank you, Marie. I couldn't agree more. An ongoing public discussion about where and how can only hurt ALL Ricardian organisations, as well as their individual members.
>
> Renate
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > We must be careful, I think. An unseemly argument over who gets the bones would not be good. I've already read one sensationalised article about the supposed tussle over this between the "rival" Ricardian societies the RIII Soc and the RIII Foundation which really does not make edifying reading. The problem is it is only an assumption - albeit a reasonable one - that Richard wanted to be buried in York. There is no document telling us this. I personally think the only dignified thing to do is to accept the generous offer of Leicester cathedral whatever our personal preferences may have been.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "bkohatl" <bkohatl@> wrote:
> > >
> > > One member of Parliament inadvertently indicated that David Cameron's Conservative Government's choice of Leicester was governed by the hope that Leicester would become more of a tourist attraction. I think that Richard's desire to be buried in York, should be the overriding factor. Some things must mean more than greed.
> > >
> >
>
>
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>
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