Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen

Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."

See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.

"sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u.  But I catch your meaning.

Sheffe




>________________________________
> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@...>
>To:
>Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
>Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
>
>
> 
>Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
>
>See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
>
>
>
>
>

Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
Marie

--- In , Sheffe <shethra77@...> wrote:
>
> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u.  But I catch your meaning.
>
> Sheffe
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@...>
> >To:
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> >Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> >
> >
> > 
> >Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> >
> >See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
G
On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> Marie
>
> --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@...> wrote:
>>
>> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
>>
>> Sheffe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@...>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
>>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
>>>
>>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
Marie

--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> G
> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> >>
> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> >>
> >> Sheffe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> >>> To:
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Â
> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> >>>
> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

LOL
G

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 1, 2012, at 12:33 PM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:

> Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> Marie
>
> --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
> >
> > I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> > G
> > On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> > > Marie
> > >
> > > --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> > >>
> > >> Sheffe
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> ________________________________
> > >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> > >>> To:
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> > >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Â
> > >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> > >>>
> > >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

Oh, come on, G, it's the most beautiful language (did you know Richard had Welsh supporters as well, and his father even had poetry written for him in Welsh?). Try this out:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEjKiryqjI


Marie


--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> LOL
> G
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 1, 2012, at 12:33 PM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> > > G
> > > On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > > --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> > > >>
> > > >> Sheffe
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> ________________________________
> > > >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> > > >>> To:
> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> > > >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Â
> > > >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> > > >>>
> > > >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Indeed.

PS: Does 'fetch a vowel' actually mean anything in ENGLISH?! :p

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, come on, G, it's the most beautiful language (did you know Richard had Welsh supporters as well, and his father even had poetry written for him in Welsh?). Try this out:-
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEjKiryqjI
>
>
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> >
> > LOL
> > G
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Nov 1, 2012, at 12:33 PM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> > > Marie
> > >
> > > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> > > > G
> > > > On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Sheffe
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> ________________________________
> > > > >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> > > > >>> To:
> > > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> > > > >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Â
> > > > >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Quite beautiful.  My Dad was a first language Welsh speaker and I to my shame, only know a few words.
 
Liz


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2012, 16:47
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen

 
Oh, come on, G, it's the most beautiful language (did you know Richard had Welsh supporters as well, and his father even had poetry written for him in Welsh?). Try this out:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEjKiryqjI

Marie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> LOL
> G
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 1, 2012, at 12:33 PM, mariewalsh2003 <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> > > G
> > > On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u.Ã But I catch your meaning.
> > > >>
> > > >> Sheffe
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> ________________________________
> > > >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> > > >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> > > >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Ã
> > > >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> > > >>>
> > > >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

And remember Professor Higgins' approving comment in response to Alfie
P.Doolittle's declaration "I w
illing to tell you; I'm wanting to tell you; I'm waiting to tell you."

"Pickering, this chap has a certain natural gift of
rhetoric<http://grammar.about.com/od/rs/g/rhetoricterm.htm>.
Observe the rhythm of his native woodnotes wild. 'I'm willing to tell you.
I'm wanting to tell you. I'm waiting to tell you.' Sentimental rhetoric!
That's the Welsh strain in him."

Maria
ejbronte@...
(who likes listening to Welsh though cannot comprehend it)

On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 2:56 PM, blancsanglier1452 <
blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Indeed.
>
> PS: Does 'fetch a vowel' actually mean anything in ENGLISH?! :p
>
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, come on, G, it's the most beautiful language (did you know Richard
> had Welsh supporters as well, and his father even had poetry written for
> him in Welsh?). Try this out:-
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEjKiryqjI
> >
> >
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In , George Butterfield
> <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > LOL
> > > G
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Nov 1, 2012, at 12:33 PM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it
> on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > > --- In , George Butterfield
> <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had
> bronchitis :-0
> > > > > G
> > > > > On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <
> [email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels
> as used in Welsh.
> > > > > > Marie
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , Sheffe
> <shethra77@> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u.ýý But I catch your
> meaning.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sheffe
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> ________________________________
> > > > > >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> > > > > >>> To:
> > > > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> > > > > >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was
> That Called Richard a Saracen
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> ýý
> > > > > >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi:
> "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little
> ape'..."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two
> whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

Apparently some of my ancestors were Welsh, but the only word I know in Welsh is Jones.

:D  Sheffe (Jones-Hoopes)




>________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:40 AM
>Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
>
>
> 
>Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
>Marie
>
>--- In , Sheffe <shethra77@...> wrote:
>>
>> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u.  But I catch your meaning.
>>
>> Sheffe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@...>
>> >To:
>> >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
>> >Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> >Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
>> >
>> >See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Sheffe




>________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
>To:
>Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:33 PM
>Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
>
>
> 
>Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
>Marie
>
>--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>>
>> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
>> G
>> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
>> > Marie
>> >
>> > --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
>> >>
>> >> Sheffe
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> ________________________________
>> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
>> >>> To:
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
>> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Â
>> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
>> >>>
>> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>

Does Wales always win the game they play in Heaven? Or do the All Blacks
still get their way?

Karen

From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: ""
<>
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen






Ha ha ha ha ha!

Sheffe

>________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]
<mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> >
>To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:33 PM
>Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called
Richard a Saracen
>
>
>
>Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good
authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
>Marie
>
>--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
<gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>>
>> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
>> G
>> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]
<mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> > wrote:
>>
>> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in
Welsh.
>> > Marie
>> >
>> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
>> >>
>> >> Sheffe
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> ________________________________
>> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
>> >>> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
>> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Â
>> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh
poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
>> >>>
>> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names
without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi!

Re: Dafydd Llwydd's description of Richard (whom he probably never
saw) as a "Saracen":
Surely the implication is 'heathen', traditional enemy of
Christendom, & c? He's trying to bring crusading rhetoric to bear on
Henry's side (which is amusing, given Richard's apparent interest in
crusading, at least in conversation). It's not as if it was an
appearance-based nickname (I can think of a case where it was, with
one of the Parodi family near Genoa, if I recall aright.)

cheers,
Marianne

Marianne wrote:
>
> Re: Dafydd Llwydd's description of Richard (whom he probably never
> saw) as a "Saracen": Surely the implication is 'heathen', traditional enemy of Christendom, & c? He's trying to bring crusading rhetoric to bear on Henry's side (which is amusing, given Richard's apparent interest in crusading, at least in conversation). It's not as if it was an appearance-based nickname <snip>

Carol responds:

I agree that he never saw Richard (and probably no real Saracens, either), but considering that the full line is "Shame on the hang-lipped Saracen for slaying the angels of Christ [Richard's nephews]," it suggests physical ugliness (and dark skin) as well as unchristian evil (another link between dark coloring and a dark soul). I haven't found the whole poem yet, but McJohn's statement that Dafydd Llwydd also called Richard "a little ape" suggests much the same thing, except that in this case, it's small size, ugliness, and a less than human nature. So I guess we can blame the Welsh bards, who wanted to see Henry Tudor as the fulfillment of a myth about their rescue from the English oppressors, for the start of the Tudor propaganda campaign. They said what Henry didn't dare to say himself, that Richard had murdered his nephews.

I found this article, which quotes the "hang-lipped Saracen" line, interesting despite the author's view of Richard as a usurper and other points of disagreement, such as his inaccurate description of Tudor as "half-Plantagenet":

http://www.historytoday.com/peter-r-roberts/welshness-tudors

McJohn, do you have the whole poem, and if so, can you link us to it or copy and paste it?

Carol

This reminds me of the Welsh contestant on Countdown, who asked for nine consonants.

----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen





Marianne wrote:
>
> Re: Dafydd Llwydd's description of Richard (whom he probably never
> saw) as a "Saracen": Surely the implication is 'heathen', traditional enemy of Christendom, & c? He's trying to bring crusading rhetoric to bear on Henry's side (which is amusing, given Richard's apparent interest in crusading, at least in conversation). It's not as if it was an appearance-based nickname <snip>

Carol responds:

I agree that he never saw Richard (and probably no real Saracens, either), but considering that the full line is "Shame on the hang-lipped Saracen for slaying the angels of Christ [Richard's nephews]," it suggests physical ugliness (and dark skin) as well as unchristian evil (another link between dark coloring and a dark soul). I haven't found the whole poem yet, but McJohn's statement that Dafydd Llwydd also called Richard "a little ape" suggests much the same thing, except that in this case, it's small size, ugliness, and a less than human nature. So I guess we can blame the Welsh bards, who wanted to see Henry Tudor as the fulfillment of a myth about their rescue from the English oppressors, for the start of the Tudor propaganda campaign. They said what Henry didn't dare to say himself, that Richard had murdered his nephews.

I found this article, which quotes the "hang-lipped Saracen" line, interesting despite the author's view of Richard as a usurper and other points of disagreement, such as his inaccurate description of Tudor as "half-Plantagenet":

http://www.historytoday.com/peter-r-roberts/welshness-tudors

McJohn, do you have the whole poem, and if so, can you link us to it or copy and paste it?

Carol

[Laughing.] George, dude, you and I are gonna have seats right next to each other on a bench in hell.

--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> G
> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> >>
> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> >>
> >> Sheffe
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> >>> To:
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Â
> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> >>>
> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>

I'm not sure! I'm only an American!

--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> Indeed.
>
> PS: Does 'fetch a vowel' actually mean anything in ENGLISH?! :p
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Oh, come on, G, it's the most beautiful language (did you know Richard had Welsh supporters as well, and his father even had poetry written for him in Welsh?). Try this out:-
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhEjKiryqjI
> >
> >
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > LOL
> > > G
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Nov 1, 2012, at 12:33 PM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > > --- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> > > > > G
> > > > > On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in Welsh.
> > > > > > Marie
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Sheffe
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>> ________________________________
> > > > > >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> > > > > >>> To:
> > > > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> > > > > >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Â
> > > > > >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Beg pardon, Carol, but all I saw was Dockray's comment. Let's see what we can turn up with the magic of Google...

Here's the relevant Wikipedia entry, but no live link to a Web version of the poem--the last compilation seems to have been published in 1946:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dafydd_Llwyd_ap_Llywelyn_ap_Gruffudd_%28Dafydd_Llwyd_o_Fathafarn%29

Found a FASCINATING, if largely unrelated, discussion of his work in conjunction with... well, conjunctions, the astrological variety:

http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16816

I dunno a tenth of what they're saying, but they do have a couple stabs at English translations of part of the Richard As Dork poem.

Ah, here we go, a MOST respected voice chimes in on whether Llwydd's poem was revelatory of reality or a pile of vowel-challenged horse hockey:

http://www.richardiii-nsw.org.au/?page_id=289

I really don't see a requirement to go much further than Annette Carson saying she don't think he's all that and a Bounty bar.

By the way, anyone who researches... "Dafydd Llwydd" is an incredibly common name, both within this gentleman's family and without, and there are lots of illustrious bearers of the moniker, even up to today. You're looking for the guy who wrote poetry around the time of the Wars of the Roses: he's generally identified that way. Be prepared for quite a few busted links, I'm afraid.


--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Marianne wrote:
> >
> > Re: Dafydd Llwydd's description of Richard (whom he probably never
> > saw) as a "Saracen": Surely the implication is 'heathen', traditional enemy of Christendom, & c? He's trying to bring crusading rhetoric to bear on Henry's side (which is amusing, given Richard's apparent interest in crusading, at least in conversation). It's not as if it was an appearance-based nickname <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I agree that he never saw Richard (and probably no real Saracens, either), but considering that the full line is "Shame on the hang-lipped Saracen for slaying the angels of Christ [Richard's nephews]," it suggests physical ugliness (and dark skin) as well as unchristian evil (another link between dark coloring and a dark soul). I haven't found the whole poem yet, but McJohn's statement that Dafydd Llwydd also called Richard "a little ape" suggests much the same thing, except that in this case, it's small size, ugliness, and a less than human nature. So I guess we can blame the Welsh bards, who wanted to see Henry Tudor as the fulfillment of a myth about their rescue from the English oppressors, for the start of the Tudor propaganda campaign. They said what Henry didn't dare to say himself, that Richard had murdered his nephews.
>
> I found this article, which quotes the "hang-lipped Saracen" line, interesting despite the author's view of Richard as a usurper and other points of disagreement, such as his inaccurate description of Tudor as "half-Plantagenet":
>
> http://www.historytoday.com/peter-r-roberts/welshness-tudors
>
> McJohn, do you have the whole poem, and if so, can you link us to it or copy and paste it?
>
> Carol
>

Mcjohn wrote:
<snip>
> Ah, here we go, a MOST respected voice chimes in on whether Llwydd's poem was revelatory of reality or a pile of vowel-challenged horse hockey:
>
> http://www.richardiii-nsw.org.au/?page_id=289
>
> I really don't see a requirement to go much further than Annette Carson saying she don't think he's all that and a Bounty bar.
>
> By the way, anyone who researches... "Dafydd Llwydd" is an incredibly common name, both within this gentleman's family and without <snip>

Carol responds:

Thanks, McJohn. I had forgotten about Annette's letter. I suspect that the article she's responding to so effectively contains the whole poem or at least quotes extensively from it.

I guess we would need to search for DAFYDD LLWYD ap LLYWELYN ap GRUFFUDD (pardon the capitals; I copied and pasted from an otherwise unhelpful article). The name suggests that he might be descended from the line of Welsh princes that Sharon Kay Penman writes about in some of her novels and from whom, IIRC, Richard and his brothers were also descended (but the Tudors were not). Ironic, if that's the case.

Carol

Yes Richard and Edward are descended from the Llywellyn Fawr's daughter Gwladys who married one of the Mortimers. Henry Tudor on the other hand is descended from Llewellyn's Steward Ednyfed Fychan.

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Mcjohn wrote:
> <snip>
> > Ah, here we go, a MOST respected voice chimes in on whether Llwydd's poem was revelatory of reality or a pile of vowel-challenged horse hockey:
> >
> > http://www.richardiii-nsw.org.au/?page_id=289
> >
> > I really don't see a requirement to go much further than Annette Carson saying she don't think he's all that and a Bounty bar.
> >
> > By the way, anyone who researches... "Dafydd Llwydd" is an incredibly common name, both within this gentleman's family and without <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, McJohn. I had forgotten about Annette's letter. I suspect that the article she's responding to so effectively contains the whole poem or at least quotes extensively from it.
>
> I guess we would need to search for DAFYDD LLWYD ap LLYWELYN ap GRUFFUDD (pardon the capitals; I copied and pasted from an otherwise unhelpful article). The name suggests that he might be descended from the line of Welsh princes that Sharon Kay Penman writes about in some of her novels and from whom, IIRC, Richard and his brothers were also descended (but the Tudors were not). Ironic, if that's the case.
>
> Carol
>

How glorious!  Not that I have any room to talk about my forebears, one of whom was described as "Edward Whittington, pleb." when he died



________________________________
From: ricard1an <maryfriend@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 2 November 2012, 19:18
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen

 
Yes Richard and Edward are descended from the Llywellyn Fawr's daughter Gwladys who married one of the Mortimers. Henry Tudor on the other hand is descended from Llewellyn's Steward Ednyfed Fychan.

Hi, Carol -

Some odds and sods here:



1) "Dafydd Llwydd" is just more authentic Welsh spelling for "David
Lloyd" (or possibly "Floyd") Double LL in Welsh is pronounced as a sort of
guttural clearing of the throat, or more simply, sort of like "FL."



2) I suppose it's possible that Dafydd Llwydd did see Richard in person
when he was on one of his progresses or something. That wouldn't preclude
D.L. from denigrating Richard's appearance and it wouldn't mean that his
description was necessarily accurate.



3) We've talked a lot back and forth about Richard's hair colour and
complexion. I think it's possible that the overall impression of Richard was
darker than Edward's, even with similar hair colour as adults. I notice that
pretty well all the existing paintings (even though they are all copies of
originals) do show Richard as having a pale complexion, whereas Edward's
seems ruddy. It looks almost like Richard may have had some health problems
which would have affected his skin tone. Didn't one someone in *Daughter of
Time* look at his painting and say, "Liver" ?



4) So if we generalize from these pejorative descriptions we get someone
who was small, dark, one shoulder higher than the other, usually a "crouch
back," and according to Llwydd a "hang-lip" whatever that is - a drooping
lip, I suppose? (Funny there is no indication of anything like that that I
can recall anywhere else, during or after his lifetime. I think More used
the phrase "hard-visaged" to describe his facial features, but that's pretty
vague).



Think of it, though, how difficult it would have been for Richard to make
his way in the world - in fact to triumph all through his early lifetime.
Given the stress on appearance, he had to overcome a lot of prejudice, I am
sure. Which suggests - he may have overcome ill health, and he may possibly
have lived with almost constant pain - but instead of becoming a sociopath,
he became a very spiritual man, one who thumbed through his Book of Hours
daily. One who had an attitude of humility toward people of every station in
life, thinking "There but for the grace of God go I." One who went the extra
mile to be fair and just to everyone, in generosity of spirit. The physical
limitations he faced may have made him one of the first social progressives
- among the English upper classes, at least! (Well, everything is relative.
<smile>)



I hope that we will soon know exactly how tall Richard was - but we won't be
able to tell anything about his complexion - unless they could determine
that from DNA.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - <mailto:jltournier60@...> jltournier60@...

or <mailto:jltournier@...> jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 1:42 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen







Marianne wrote:
>
> Re: Dafydd Llwydd's description of Richard (whom he probably never
> saw) as a "Saracen": Surely the implication is 'heathen', traditional
enemy of Christendom, & c? He's trying to bring crusading rhetoric to bear
on Henry's side (which is amusing, given Richard's apparent interest in
crusading, at least in conversation). It's not as if it was an
appearance-based nickname <snip>

Carol responds:

I agree that he never saw Richard (and probably no real Saracens, either),
but considering that the full line is "Shame on the hang-lipped Saracen for
slaying the angels of Christ [Richard's nephews]," it suggests physical
ugliness (and dark skin) as well as unchristian evil (another link between
dark coloring and a dark soul). I haven't found the whole poem yet, but
McJohn's statement that Dafydd Llwydd also called Richard "a little ape"
suggests much the same thing, except that in this case, it's small size,
ugliness, and a less than human nature. So I guess we can blame the Welsh
bards, who wanted to see Henry Tudor as the fulfillment of a myth about
their rescue from the English oppressors, for the start of the Tudor
propaganda campaign. They said what Henry didn't dare to say himself, that
Richard had murdered his nephews.

I found this article, which quotes the "hang-lipped Saracen" line,
interesting despite the author's view of Richard as a usurper and other
points of disagreement, such as his inaccurate description of Tudor as
"half-Plantagenet":

http://www.historytoday.com/peter-r-roberts/welshness-tudors

McJohn, do you have the whole poem, and if so, can you link us to it or copy
and paste it?

Carol

Quite. The later Tudors etc were descended in that way, but not the Weasel.

----- Original Message -----
From: ricard1an
To:
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen



Yes Richard and Edward are descended from the Llywellyn Fawr's daughter Gwladys who married one of the Mortimers. Henry Tudor on the other hand is descended from Llewellyn's Steward Ednyfed Fychan.

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Mcjohn wrote:
> <snip>
> > Ah, here we go, a MOST respected voice chimes in on whether Llwydd's poem was revelatory of reality or a pile of vowel-challenged horse hockey:
> >
> > http://www.richardiii-nsw.org.au/?page_id=289
> >
> > I really don't see a requirement to go much further than Annette Carson saying she don't think he's all that and a Bounty bar.
> >
> > By the way, anyone who researches... "Dafydd Llwydd" is an incredibly common name, both within this gentleman's family and without <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, McJohn. I had forgotten about Annette's letter. I suspect that the article she's responding to so effectively contains the whole poem or at least quotes extensively from it.
>
> I guess we would need to search for DAFYDD LLWYD ap LLYWELYN ap GRUFFUDD (pardon the capitals; I copied and pasted from an otherwise unhelpful article). The name suggests that he might be descended from the line of Welsh princes that Sharon Kay Penman writes about in some of her novels and from whom, IIRC, Richard and his brothers were also descended (but the Tudors were not). Ironic, if that's the case.
>
> Carol
>

Johanne Tournier wrote:
<snip>
>
> 2) I suppose it's possible that Dafydd Llwydd did see Richard in person when he was on one of his progresses or something. That wouldn't preclude D.L. from denigrating Richard's appearance and it wouldn't mean that his description was necessarily accurate.

Carol responds:

Seems unlikely to me; he never went on progress to York. This Dafydd was apparently associated with Jasper Tudor before Henry became the "Lancastrian" claimant, but Jasper never made it to Barnet, and Richard was too young to fight in the battles in which Jasper participated. It's possible that Dafydd (I'm about ready to call him David!) saw Richard when Richard was in charge of the Welsh Marches, but that was probably the only opportunity. Also, the Yorkist parts of Wales and the pro-Lancastrian parts were different. All in all, I'd say that the likelihood is small.

Johanne:
> 3) We've talked a lot back and forth about Richard's hair colour and complexion. I think it's possible that the overall impression of Richard was darker than Edward's, even with similar hair colour as adults. I notice that pretty well all the existing paintings (even though they are all copies of originals) do show Richard as having a pale complexion, whereas Edward's seems ruddy. It looks almost like Richard may have had some health problems which would have affected his skin tone. Didn't one someone in *Daughter of Time* look at his painting and say, "Liver" ?
>
Carol:

But similar hair color and pale complexion does not equal darker. And Tey (whose characters don't always voice her own opinions) was under the impression that Richard had been a sickly child (the "Richard liveth yet" problem). Not that illness equates with darkness. I'm not quite following your reasoning.

Johanne:
> 4) So if we generalize from these pejorative descriptions we get someone who was small, dark, one shoulder higher than the other, usually a "crouch back," and according to Llwydd a "hang-lip" whatever that is - a drooping lip, I suppose? (Funny there is no indication of anything like that that I can recall anywhere else, during or after his lifetime. <snip>

Carol:

I'm afraid that "hang-lipped" is a very crude and politically incorrect attribute pertaining to Dafydd's idea of a Saracen, which he seems to have confused with African because all he knows about either is that they are dark-skinned "heathens." It has, I think, nothing to do with Richard's appearance at all (though Vergil later has him biting his lower lip as a nervous habit, along with sliding his dagger in its sheath--no earlier commentator says any such thing about him).
>
Johanne:
> Think of it, though, how difficult it would have been for Richard to make his way in the world - in fact to triumph all through his early lifetime. Given the stress on appearance, he had to overcome a lot of prejudice, I am sure.

Carol:
I'm considerably less sure. I doubt that he was much below the middle height or that his raised shoulder was noticeable when he was dressed. Pale, yes, and somewhat drawn under the stress of his last two years, especially after the deaths of his wife and son, but there's no evidence that anyone except the Croyland Chronicler held these traits against him during his lifetime. And there's no evidence at all that he had a dark complexion or that his coloring was held against him. (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a fair family" came from.)

Johanne:
Which suggests - he may have overcome ill health, and he may possibly have lived with almost constant pain - but instead of becoming a sociopath, he became a very spiritual man <snip>

Carol:

We really have no evidence of ill health. He was a very active man from his teens until his death. The archaeologists note that the Leicester warrior was, despite his scoliosis, a strong and active man. He may have had to deal with pain, especially when he was wearing armor, and may (if the stories about his traveling bed are true) have had some trouble sleeping, but scoliosis is no more an illness than it is a deformity. But I absolutely agree that he was a very spiritual man and not at all a sociopath!
>
Johanne:
> I hope that we will soon know exactly how tall Richard was - but we won't be able to tell anything about his complexion - unless they could determine that from DNA.

Carol:

True, though I hold out hope that the originals of the paintings of both Richard and Edward will show up, with portraits of their wives for good measure. If Titulus Regius could appear after all copies were supposedly burned, maybe other treasures will, too. But at least, knowing Richard's (approximate) height would be one step closer to knowing what he looked like and end one small area of speculation.

Carol

Hi, again -



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 6:51 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen





Johanne Tournier wrote:
<snip>
>
> 2) I suppose it's possible that Dafydd Llwydd did see Richard in person
when he was on one of his progresses or something. That wouldn't preclude
D.L. from denigrating Richard's appearance and it wouldn't mean that his
description was necessarily accurate.

Carol responds:

Seems unlikely to me; he never went on progress to York. This Dafydd was
apparently associated with Jasper Tudor before Henry became the
"Lancastrian" claimant, but Jasper never made it to Barnet, and Richard was
too young to fight in the battles in which Jasper participated. It's
possible that Dafydd (I'm about ready to call him David!) saw Richard when
Richard was in charge of the Welsh Marches, but that was probably the only
opportunity. Also, the Yorkist parts of Wales and the pro-Lancastrian parts
were different. All in all, I'd say that the likelihood is small.

[JLT] Umm. . . as I said recently, my memory is good but it's short these
days. I seem to recall that Annette refers to Richard travelling through
Wales, although perhaps it's the Welsh Marches. I wasn't thinking of York or
anywhere in England - I was assuming that it would be Richard travelling
through "D.L. Country."

But regardless, my point was that whether or not D.L. saw Richard in the
flesh or didn't, he could still have made up an unflattering description.

Johanne:
> 3) We've talked a lot back and forth about Richard's hair colour and
complexion. I think it's possible that the overall impression of Richard was
darker than Edward's, even with similar hair colour as adults. I notice that
pretty well all the existing paintings (even though they are all copies of
originals) do show Richard as having a pale complexion, whereas Edward's
seems ruddy. It looks almost like Richard may have had some health problems
which would have affected his skin tone. Didn't one someone in *Daughter of
Time* look at his painting and say, "Liver" ?
>
Carol:

But similar hair color and pale complexion does not equal darker. And Tey
(whose characters don't always voice her own opinions) was under the
impression that Richard had been a sickly child (the "Richard liveth yet"
problem). Not that illness equates with darkness. I'm not quite following
your reasoning.

[JLT] No, no, but sickness might have caused sallowness, which is a word I'm
not fond of, but does sort of describe what I see when I look at the Society
of Antiquaries Portrait, for example.

The portraits of Edward give an impression of rather "pink-cheeked" person,
and I think he may well have been the sort of complexion that would have
been blonde as a young man and then darkened as he got older. Looking at the
portraits of Richard, if they are at all accurate, he doesn't look like the
sort who was ever "blond-ish." In which case, he would have been relatively
darker than his siblings, even if he wasn't truly brunette or black-haired.


Johanne:
> 4) So if we generalize from these pejorative descriptions we get someone
who was small, dark, one shoulder higher than the other, usually a "crouch
back," and according to Llwydd a "hang-lip" whatever that is - a drooping
lip, I suppose? (Funny there is no indication of anything like that that I
can recall anywhere else, during or after his lifetime. <snip>

Carol:

I'm afraid that "hang-lipped" is a very crude and politically incorrect
attribute pertaining to Dafydd's idea of a Saracen, which he seems to have
confused with African because all he knows about either is that they are
dark-skinned "heathens." It has, I think, nothing to do with Richard's
appearance at all (though Vergil later has him biting his lower lip as a
nervous habit, along with sliding his dagger in its sheath--no earlier
commentator says any such thing about him).

[JLT] You're suggesting a mis-applied racial stereotype, right? Maybe you're
right. I would rather think that than that it was based on an actual
characteristic of Richard's.
>
Johanne:
> Think of it, though, how difficult it would have been for Richard to make
his way in the world - in fact to triumph all through his early lifetime.
Given the stress on appearance, he had to overcome a lot of prejudice, I am
sure.

Carol:
I'm considerably less sure. I doubt that he was much below the middle height
or that his raised shoulder was noticeable when he was dressed. Pale, yes,
and somewhat drawn under the stress of his last two years, especially after
the deaths of his wife and son, . . .

[JLT] I believe you cannot overestimate the importance then and now of being
an "alpha male" type - for example, Edward IV and Fat Harry as young men -
bluff, hale and hearty with some real leadership qualities. But I think
maybe they got spoiled because they had it too easy, in the end. Richard
never had it easy, in my view. I think what he accomplished he did from
sheer virtuosity and intelligence and basically being a decent man at heart.
Ability rather than a handsome exterior. As one of the US Presidents once
said, "I'm a Ford, not a Lincoln." <smile>

Carol continued:

. . . but there's no evidence that anyone except the Croyland Chronicler
held these traits against him during his lifetime. And there's no evidence
at all that he had a dark complexion or that his coloring was held against
him. (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a fair family" came
from.)

[JLT] I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
and at random I found it! First she quotes a long passage from Miss
Payne-Ellis's book *The Rose of Raby* - a family tableau with Cecily bidding
farewell to her husband, son Edmund (at 17, going off on his first
campaign), and brother Salisbury heading off.

"She glanced behind her at the three younger children who had come out in
her wake: Margaret and George, the two solid fair ones, and behind them, a
pace in the rear as always, her changeling baby, Richard, his dark brows and
brown hair making him look like a visitor."

After Tey has Grant finish reading the passage, she writes that Grant is
thinking to himself: "Well, that might be fiction, but it was an
illuminating glimpse of Richard. The dark one in a blond family. The one who
"looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""

Johanne:
Which suggests - he may have overcome ill health, and he may possibly have
lived with almost constant pain - but instead of becoming a sociopath, he
became a very spiritual man <snip>

Carol:

We really have no evidence of ill health. He was a very active man from his
teens until his death. The archaeologists note that the Leicester warrior
was, despite his scoliosis, a strong and active man. He may have had to deal
with pain, especially when he was wearing armor, and may (if the stories
about his traveling bed are true) have had some trouble sleeping, but
scoliosis is no more an illness than it is a deformity. But I absolutely
agree that he was a very spiritual man and not at all a sociopath!

[JLT] I certainly may be wrong, but I believe that the general conditions of
life at the time were that people carried on with all sorts of conditions -
tooth decay for one - that we would find debilitating today. I still am
inclined to credit "Richard liveth yet" as giving some indication of a
struggle as a baby - perhaps he was a preemie. With the scoliosis, who knows
what other conditions he may have lived with that we would find crippling.
Yes, Richard was vigorous - in part I think he did his best to live
abstemiously, unlike Edward, so that probably helped him stay as healthy as
possible in the circumstances. He had trained as a knight from a young boy,
and I am sure it toughened him, and as Annette mentions, he was probably
rather wiry, rather than heavily muscled.

All for now, maybe more tomorrow - nighty-night!

Johanne


>Johanne:
> I hope that we will soon know exactly how tall Richard was - but we won't
be able to tell anything about his complexion - unless they could determine
that from DNA.

Carol:

True, though I hold out hope that the originals of the paintings of both
Richard and Edward will show up, with portraits of their wives for good
measure. If Titulus Regius could appear after all copies were supposedly
burned, maybe other treasures will, too. But at least, knowing Richard's
(approximate) height would be one step closer to knowing what he looked like
and end one small area of speculation.

Carol

The All Blacks win unless England is playing!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 1, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...> wrote:

> Does Wales always win the game they play in Heaven? Or do the All Blacks
> still get their way?
>
> Karen
>
> From: Sheffe <shethra77@...>
> Reply-To: <>
> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
> To: ""
> <>
> Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> Ha ha ha ha ha!
>
> Sheffe
>
> >________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]
> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> >
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:33 PM
> >Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called
> Richard a Saracen
> >
> >
> >
> >Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good
> authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> >Marie
> >
> >--- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
> <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> >> G
> >> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]
> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in
> Welsh.
> >> > Marie
> >> >
> >> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sheffe
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> ________________________________
> >> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> >> >>> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Â
> >> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh
> poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names
> without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

This is rugby in Heaven George - they have to score tries ....




________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 2 November 2012, 23:19
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen

 
The All Blacks win unless England is playing!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 1, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Karen Clark <mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com> wrote:

> Does Wales always win the game they play in Heaven? Or do the All Blacks
> still get their way?
>
> Karen
>
> From: Sheffe <mailto:shethra77%40yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> Ha ha ha ha ha!
>
> Sheffe
>
> >________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003 <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> >
> >To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:33 PM
> >Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called
> Richard a Saracen
> >
> >
> >
> >Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good
> authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> >Marie
> >
> >--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
> <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> >> G
> >> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003 <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in
> Welsh.
> >> > Marie
> >> >
> >> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sheffe
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> ________________________________
> >> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> >> >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Â
> >> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for [Welsh
> poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names
> without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a fair family" came from.)
>
Johanne responded:

I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family. The one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""

Carol again:

Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind. I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)

I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I wanted to answer this one right away.

By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an imaginary novel invented by Tey.

Carol

Dear Johanne,

> I notice that
> pretty well all the existing paintings (even though they are all
> copies of
> originals) do show Richard as having a pale complexion, whereas
> Edward's
> seems ruddy.

No. The Society of Antiquaries' painting may have lost some of its
colour because of the very dirty condition it had been in: the
pigments may have been affected; also...

> It looks almost like Richard may have had some health problems
> which would have affected his skin tone.

...there is no good reason for claiming for this at all. If anything,
Richard's apparent fair complexion looks normal for someone with such
light eyes.

> Didn't one someone in *Daughter of
> Time* look at his painting and say, "Liver" ?

That can safely be ignored:
a) It's a novel of dubious accuracy;
b) The painting in question is one of the latest copies of the
Windsor one - very late 16C;
c) At the time the novel was written it had not been cleaned and had
a rather jaundiced look because of yellowed varnish. Since cleaning,
not only has the pretty filigree decoration at the corners been
uncovered, but the complexion is quite fresh and fair. Making
judgements on that painting's colouration as it was in the early '50s
is like assessing Titian's 'Man with the Blue Sleeve' at the time it
was known as 'Man with the Green Sleeve' - a result of dirty varnish.

best wishes,
Marianne

Johanne wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> But regardless, my point was that whether or not D.L. saw Richard in the flesh or didn't, he could still have made up an unflattering description.

Carol responds:

Okay, we agree, except that I'd say he *did* make up an unflattering description ("hang-lipped Saracen" and "little ape," neither of which applies at all to the real Richard).
>
Carol earlier:
>
> But similar hair color and pale complexion does not equal darker. <snip>
>
> [JLT] No, no, but sickness might have caused sallowness, which is a word I'm not fond of, but does sort of describe what I see when I look at the Society of Antiquaries Portrait, for example.

Carol again:
I'm not fond of the word, either, or of that portrait, come to think of it. To me, he looks more pale than sallow, but, of course, it's a copy and the colors (despite restoration) may have altered over time or not have been quite true to life. We're not dealing here with a skilled court painter.

Johanne:
> The portraits of Edward give an impression of rather "pink-cheeked" person, and I think he may well have been the sort of complexion that would have been blonde as a young man and then darkened as he got older. Looking at the portraits of Richard, if they are at all accurate, he doesn't look like the sort who was ever "blond-ish." In which case, he would have been relatively darker than his siblings, even if he wasn't truly brunette or black-haired.
>
Carol:

Okay, I see your reasoning re the ruddy-complexioned Edward and blondness, but we have no contemporary descriptions that refer) to either his or Richard's coloring (except with regard to Richard's paleness, which takes me back to the question I asked before. I don't think that Tey's "dark one in a fair family" comes from those paired portraits since she was looking at the National Portrait Gallery portrait of Richard. Here's the painting of Edward from the same gallery: http://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portraitLarge/mw02029/King-Edward-IV Similar to but not identical to the Society of Antiquities portrait--note the brown hair and brown eyes. (The hands are very clumsily painted, but, like Henry VII's, they rest on the frame of the portrait.)

Carol earlier:
>
> I'm afraid that "hang-lipped" is a very crude and politically incorrect attribute pertaining to Dafydd's idea of a Saracen, which he seems to have confused with African because all he knows about either is that they are dark-skinned "heathens." It has, I think, nothing to do with Richard's appearance at all <snip>
>
Johanne:

> You're suggesting a mis-applied racial stereotype, right? Maybe you're right. I would rather think that than that it was based on an actual characteristic of Richard's.

Carol:

Right. I was tiptoeing around the subject and I said it rather clumsily, but, yes, that's what I meant. There's no evidence that Richard had any such trait. In fact, the later (distorted) portraits tend in the opposite direction, making him tight-lipped. Even the Society of Antiquities portrait was altered in that way as the restoration revealed.

Carol

Not sure how the Heavenly Host would cope with the haka, so it's the All
Blacks to take out the Celestial Cup for me.

Karen

From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 23:31:07 +0000 (GMT)
To: ""
<>
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen






This is rugby in Heaven George - they have to score tries ....

________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@... <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com>
>
To: "
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> "
<
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Friday, 2 November 2012, 23:19
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen


The All Blacks win unless England is playing!

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 1, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Karen Clark <mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
wrote:

> Does Wales always win the game they play in Heaven? Or do the All Blacks
> still get their way?
>
> Karen
>
> From: Sheffe <mailto:shethra77%40yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> Ha ha ha ha ha!
>
> Sheffe
>
> >________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003 <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> >
> >To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:33 PM
> >Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called
> Richard a Saracen
> >
> >
> >
> >Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good
> authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> >Marie
> >
> >--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
> <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> >> G
> >> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003
<mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in
> Welsh.
> >> > Marie
> >> >
> >> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sheffe
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> ________________________________
> >> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> >> >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> >> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Â
> >> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for
[Welsh
> poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names
> without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Not sure how the Heavenly Host would cope with the haka, so it's the All Blacks to take out the Celestial Cup for me.

Carol responds:

You're talking rugby here, right? It's all Welsh to me.

Carol

:-D

I just assumed a connection between the language spoken and the game played
in Heaven.

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2012 01:11:14 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen






Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Not sure how the Heavenly Host would cope with the haka, so it's the All
Blacks to take out the Celestial Cup for me.

Carol responds:

You're talking rugby here, right? It's all Welsh to me.

Carol

You did say Rugby heaven !

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 2, 2012, at 8:59 PM, Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...> wrote:

> Not sure how the Heavenly Host would cope with the haka, so it's the All
> Blacks to take out the Celestial Cup for me.
>
> Karen
>
> From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
> Reply-To: <>
> Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2012 23:31:07 +0000 (GMT)
> To: ""
> <>
> Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> This is rugby in Heaven George - they have to score tries ....
>
> ________________________________
> From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@... <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com>
> >
> To: "
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> "
> <
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
> Sent: Friday, 2 November 2012, 23:19
> Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> The All Blacks win unless England is playing!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 1, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Karen Clark <mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Does Wales always win the game they play in Heaven? Or do the All Blacks
> > still get their way?
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: Sheffe <mailto:shethra77%40yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> > Called Richard a Saracen
> >
> > Ha ha ha ha ha!
> >
> > Sheffe
> >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003 <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > >To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:33 PM
> > >Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called
> > Richard a Saracen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Well, you may be in for a tough eternity then, because it I have it on good
> > authority that it is the language spoken in heaven.
> > >Marie
> > >
> > >--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
> > <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I had no idea that was a language, I always thought they had bronchitis :-0
> > >> G
> > >> On Nov 1, 2012, at 8:40 AM, mariewalsh2003
> <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Well, I do realise it was a jest; of course y and w are vowels as used in
> > Welsh.
> > >> > Marie
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Sheffe <shethra77@> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "sometimes Y" after a, e, i, o, and u. But I catch your meaning.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Sheffe
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>> ________________________________
> > >> >>> From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@>
> > >> >>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 8:30 PM
> > >> >>> Subject: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> > Called Richard a Saracen
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> Â
> > >> >>> Keith Dockray, "Richard III: A Source Book", 1997, p. xxi: "...for
> [Welsh
> > poet] Dafydd Llwydd, Richard was a saracen, "a little ape'..."
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> See, never take the word of anybody who can get through two whole names
> > without even bothering to fetch a vowel.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

This has got to be it:

http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331

Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a fair
> family" came from.)
> >
> Johanne responded:
>
>
> I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family. The
> one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
>
> Carol again:
>
> Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind. I
> meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many others)
> got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from the Saracen
> reference in the Welsh poem?)
>
> I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I wanted
> to answer this one right away.
>
> By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an imaginary
> novel invented by Tey.
>
> Carol
>
>
>

That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or the
Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!

More later,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Maria Torres
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:43 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen

This has got to be it:

http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331

Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a
> fair family" came from.)
> >
> Johanne responded:
>
>
> I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family.
> > The
> one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
>
> Carol again:
>
> Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind.
> I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many
> others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from
> the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)
>
> I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I
> wanted to answer this one right away.
>
> By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an
> imaginary novel invented by Tey.
>
> Carol

Also found _Daughter of Time_ online:

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/tey/josephine/daughter_of_time/index.html

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or the
> Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!
>
> More later,
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
> or jltournier@...
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Maria Torres
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:43 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> This has got to be it:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331
>
> Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
> http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a
> > fair family" came from.)
> > >
> > Johanne responded:
> >
> >
> > I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> > > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family.
> > > The
> > one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
> >
> > Carol again:
> >
> > Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind.
> > I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many
> > others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from
> > the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)
> >
> > I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I
> > wanted to answer this one right away.
> >
> > By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an
> > imaginary novel invented by Tey.
> >
> > Carol
>
>
>

Marianne wrote:
//snip//

"...Making judgements on that painting's colouration as it was in the early
'50s
is like assessing Titian's 'Man with the Blue Sleeve' at the time it was
known as 'Man with the Green Sleeve' - a result of dirty varnish."

Sort of what we're trying to do here, remove the "dirty varnish" on
Richard's reputation?
Doug

Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>
> This has got to be it {
The Rose of Raby" cited in "Daughter of Time"]:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331
>
> Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
> http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog

Carol responds:

Thanks, Maria, but this 1791 novel can't be the one that Tey is quoting, which is much more modern sounding and the (probably fictitious) author she names is Evelyn Payne-Ellis.

By the way, "Daughter of Time" is available as an e-book, much easier to read than the old Musgrave novel, at http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/tey/josephine/daughter_of_time/

Carol

Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or the Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!

Carol responds:

Same title but not the same book. Tey would have had no reason to change a dead author's name, and the writing style of the novel Tey quotes (or pretends to quote) is her own. Also, there's no passage about Richard as the dark one in a fair family in the 1795 (1791?) book. However, the author does refer to "the dark, designing Gloucester, who, working upon the pride of Edward, brought about the fall of the unsuspecting Clarence."

Nope. Not the same book at all, and very much in the Tudor tradition from the little I sampled. Google books has a more readable 1839 edition without the antique font if anyone cares to read it.

Carol

Hi again, Maria -

Do you (or anyone) know how I can download that *Daughter of Time* to my
kindle from that website?

Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-----Original Message-----
From: Johanne Tournier [mailto:jltournier60@...]
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 9:04 AM
To: ''
Subject: RE: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen

That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or the
Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!

More later,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Maria Torres
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:43 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen

This has got to be it:

http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331

Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a
> fair family" came from.)
> >
> Johanne responded:
>
>
> I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family.
> > The
> one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
>
> Carol again:
>
> Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind.
> I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many
> others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from
> the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)
>
> I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I
> wanted to answer this one right away.
>
> By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an
> imaginary novel invented by Tey.
>
> Carol

No clue: I made a folder in my laptop called Daughter of Time and
downloaded all the files to that. I'm sure there's probably a way. I have
iTunes, too, though I don't know much about it. Maybe it can be added to
the iTunes library. I'll figure it out at leisure now that I have all the
files.

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi again, Maria -
>
> Do you (or anyone) know how I can download that *Daughter of Time* to my
> kindle from that website?
>
>
> Johanne
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johanne Tournier [mailto:jltournier60@...]
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: ''
> Subject: RE: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or the
> Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!
>
> More later,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Maria Torres
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:43 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> This has got to be it:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331
>
> Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
> http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a
> > fair family" came from.)
> > >
> > Johanne responded:
> >
> >
> > I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> > > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family.
> > > The
> > one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
> >
> > Carol again:
> >
> > Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind.
> > I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many
> > others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from
> > the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)
> >
> > I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I
> > wanted to answer this one right away.
> >
> > By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an
> > imaginary novel invented by Tey.
> >
> > Carol
>
>
>

Carol earlier:
> Nope. Not the same book at all, and very much in the Tudor tradition from the little I sampled. Google books has a more readable 1839 edition without the antique font if anyone cares to read it.

Carol again:

Erg. Make that 1859 edition. Not that anyone besides me cares that I keep mistyping numbers!

Carol

I would try downloading the file and save it once you have saved the data use Calibre software either to transcribe it or send it to your reader
Calibre software is free
Let me know if this works or I can assist
Regards
George

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 3, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:

> Hi again, Maria -
>
> Do you (or anyone) know how I can download that *Daughter of Time* to my
> kindle from that website?
>
> Johanne
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johanne Tournier [mailto:jltournier60@...]
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: ''
> Subject: RE: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or the
> Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!
>
> More later,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Maria Torres
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:43 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> This has got to be it:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331
>
> Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
> http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a
> > fair family" came from.)
> > >
> > Johanne responded:
> >
> >
> > I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> > > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family.
> > > The
> > one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
> >
> > Carol again:
> >
> > Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind.
> > I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many
> > others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from
> > the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)
> >
> > I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I
> > wanted to answer this one right away.
> >
> > By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an
> > imaginary novel invented by Tey.
> >
> > Carol
>
>

Thanks heaps, George!



I've got some errands to do, but I'll give it a try later.



TTFN,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of George Butterfield
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 1:26 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That Called Richard a Saracen





I would try downloading the file and save it once you have saved the data use Calibre software either to transcribe it or send it to your reader
Calibre software is free
Let me know if this works or I can assist
Regards
George

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 3, 2012, at 11:55 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:

> Hi again, Maria -
>
> Do you (or anyone) know how I can download that *Daughter of Time* to my
> kindle from that website?
>
> Johanne
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johanne Tournier [mailto:jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> ]
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 9:04 AM
> To: ' <mailto:%27%40yahoogroups.com> '
> Subject: RE: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or the
> Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!
>
> More later,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Maria Torres
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:43 AM
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
> Called Richard a Saracen
>
> This has got to be it:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331
>
> Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
> http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40gmail.com>
>
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@... <mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a
> > fair family" came from.)
> > >
> > Johanne responded:
> >
> >
> > I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened Tey
> > > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family.
> > > The
> > one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
> >
> > Carol again:
> >
> > Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind.
> > I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many
> > others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it from
> > the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)
> >
> > I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I
> > wanted to answer this one right away.
> >
> > By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an
> > imaginary novel invented by Tey.
> >
> > Carol
>
>

Thanks, Maria! That's great!

It's always nice to have a digital copy as well as a hard copy.

TTYL,

Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Maria Torres
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 9:38 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen

Also found _Daughter of Time_ online:

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/tey/josephine/daughter_of_time/index.html

Maria
ejbronte@...


On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> That makes sense - and Tey changed the name of the author. *Cecily: Or
> the Rose of Raby* is dated 1795 and Amazon.com has it in stock! Amazing!
>
> More later,
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
> or jltournier@...
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
> - Jesus of Nazareth
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Maria
> Torres
> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 8:43 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was
> That Called Richard a Saracen
>
> This has got to be it:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Cicely-Rose-Raby-Musgrave/dp/1148364331
>
> Oh! And here is the actual text from Archive.org:
> http://archive.org/details/cicelyorroserab02cicegoog
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM, justcarol67 <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> > **
>
> >
> >
> > Carol earlier: (I'm still trying to figure out where "dark one in a
> > fair family" came from.)
> > >
> > Johanne responded:
> >
> >
> > I'm thinking it's either in Tey or Kendall, or both. I just opened
> > Tey
> > > and at random I found it! <snip>" The dark one in a blond family.
> > > The
> > one who "looked like a visitor." The "changeling.""
> >
> > Carol again:
> >
> > Sorry I was unclear. I was paraphrasing Tey with that passage in mind.
> > I meant that I'm still trying to figure out where Tey (and so many
> > others) got that idea. Maybe Rhoda Taylor ("Broken Sword" got it
> > from the Saracen reference in the Welsh poem?)
> >
> > I may come back to this long post to address specific points, but I
> > wanted to answer this one right away.
> >
> > By the way, I'm not sure, but I think "The Rose of Raby" is an
> > imaginary novel invented by Tey.
> >
> > Carol
>
>
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

On 02/11/2012 23:13, Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> 3) We've talked a lot back and forth about Richard's hair colour and
> complexion. I think it's possible that the overall impression of Richard was
> darker than Edward's, even with similar hair colour as adults. I notice that
> pretty well all the existing paintings (even though they are all copies of
> originals) do show Richard as having a pale complexion, whereas Edward's
> seems ruddy. It looks almost like Richard may have had some health problems
> which would have affected his skin tone. Didn't one someone in *Daughter of
> Time* look at his painting and say, "Liver" ?
>
> Carol:
>
> But similar hair color and pale complexion does not equal darker. And Tey
> (whose characters don't always voice her own opinions) was under the
> impression that Richard had been a sickly child (the "Richard liveth yet"
> problem). Not that illness equates with darkness. I'm not quite following
> your reasoning.
>
> [JLT] No, no, but sickness might have caused sallowness, which is a word I'm
> not fond of, but does sort of describe what I see when I look at the Society
> of Antiquaries Portrait, for example.
>
> The portraits of Edward give an impression of rather "pink-cheeked" person,
> and I think he may well have been the sort of complexion that would have
> been blonde as a young man and then darkened as he got older. Looking at the
> portraits of Richard, if they are at all accurate, he doesn't look like the
> sort who was ever "blond-ish." In which case, he would have been relatively
> darker than his siblings, even if he wasn't truly brunette or black-haired.
>
The portrait used in The Daughter of Time is one of the Royal
Collection/National Portrait Gallery stable, painted well into the
sixteenth century from a lost original. We can only speculate what sort
of colouring Richard had in the original.

Most of the portraits of Edward IV seem to come from the same source - a
search on Google images gives a line of pictures where the subject is
wearing the same top, but has a different head on; I suspect that the
heads get more "realistic" (though maybe less like him) as time goes
on.... Portraiture came on by leaps and bounds after Holbein and
historical likenesses developed in the same way.

Best wishes
Christine Headley

Hi, Marianne -



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Dr M M
Gilchrist
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2012 9:05 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Talkin' Smack: Who It Was That
Called Richard a Saracen



You wrote:

Dear Johanne,

I wrote:
> I notice that pretty well all the existing >paintings (even though they
are all copies of
> originals) do show Richard as having a pale >complexion, whereas Edward's
seems ruddy.



You wrote:
No. The Society of Antiquaries' painting may have lost some of its colour
because of the very dirty condition it had been in: the pigments may have
been affected; also...

[JLT] There are 2 or 3 paintings of Richard that more or less resemble each
other. One is the Society of Antiquaries Portrait, which is supposed to be
the earliest surviving copy of the original portrait of Richard which was
made during his lifetime (according to John Ashdown-Hill, probably painted
to send to Dona Joanna of Portugal, after Anne was deceased). Annette Carson
uses the Society of Antiquaries Portrait for her cover illustration on
*Richard III: The Maligned King* and says it dates from ca. 1510. She notes
that it featured overpainting of a severely clenched mouth until it was
cleaned and restored in 2007, when the overpainting was removed. If at that
time there were any layers of the original underneath removed, the painting
would have been carefully touched up so as to be as close to the original as
possible.

The newer reproductions of the Society of Antiquaries Portrait, such as the
cover of *Maligned King* (it also appears on the new edition of Robert
Fripp's book, *Dark Sovereign*) should now reflect the painting as it exists
"in the flesh," as it were, and in its freshly cleaned and restored state it
should be very close to its original appearance in 1510. In this painting,
Richard's complexion is pale and his hair is a medium, sort of a mousy
brown.

Me before -
> It looks almost like Richard may have had >some health problems which
would have >affected his skin tone.



Marianne wrote:
...there is no good reason for claiming for this at all. If anything,
Richard's apparent fair complexion looks normal for someone with such light
eyes.

Me before -

> Didn't one someone in *Daughter of
> Time* look at his painting and say, "Liver" ?



Marianne wrote:


That can safely be ignored:
a) It's a novel of dubious accuracy;
b) The painting in question is one of the latest copies of the Windsor one -
very late 16C;
c) At the time the novel was written it had not been cleaned and had a
rather jaundiced look because of yellowed varnish. Since cleaning, not only
has the pretty filigree decoration at the corners been uncovered, but the
complexion is quite fresh and fair. Making judgements on that painting's
colouration as it was in the early '50s
is like assessing Titian's 'Man with the Blue Sleeve' at the time it was
known as 'Man with the Green Sleeve' - a result of dirty varnish.

best wishes,
Marianne

[JLT] My undergraduate degree was in history and art history. I well aware
of the possible darkening, yellowing effects of old varnish on oil
paintings.

Actually, I was not seriously putting forward anything about the NPG
portrait of Richard. I was making a tongue-in-cheek comment about the line
of dialog in the book, thinking that there might be a grain of truth in the
comment, almost fortuitously. (Notice, there is no mention in that passage
of which portrait they are looking at.)

I am well aware that the NPG portrait is said to be one of the latest
copies. On the other hand, and for what it's worth, it's a favourite,
perhaps because it's painted with more skill than the earlier versions and
seems to reveal a glimpse into Our Richard's soul, unlike the earlier
portraits. It is also possible that it is actually the most faithful to the
original, even though it may be the last completed, because it has been
painted with relatively greater skill than the earlier portraits. It may be
a better copy, in other words.

I am speculating when I suggest possible illness in addition to scoliosis,
but if Richard had congenital scoliosis, his condition may well have been
progressive and it may have eventually gotten to the point where he would
have been incapacitated. It's very possible that before he died - maybe all
of his life - he was in chronic pain. According to the Pub Med Health
website http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002221/

Complications of scoliosis can include:

* Breathing problems (in severe scoliosis)
* Low back pain
* Lower self-esteem
* Persistent pain if there is wear and tear of the spine bones
* Spinal infection after surgery
* Spine or nerve damage from an uncorrected curve or spinal surgery

Reminder: the archaeological team at Leicester has already declared that the
Greyfriars Warrior suffered from *severe scoliosis* whose right shoulder
would have been higher than the left. BTW, PubMedHealth also has pictures
showing the different types of spine curvature and an illustration of how
the raised shoulder would appear when one looks at the back and shoulders of
a sufferer bending over.

There was (as I recall) pretty much a consensus in our discussion of a few
weeks ago that Edward had a ruddy complexion. Almost a peaches-and-cream
complexion even though his hair had perhaps darkened. The portrait of Edward
which looks like a match to the Society of Antiquaries Portrait of Richard
is reproduced in *The Maligned King.* In that portrait, Edward's hair almost
looks like auburn. So, it may still have seemed that Richard had a darker
complexion that Edward, given that his hair was medium to dark brown.

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

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Johanne L. Tournier



Email - <mailto:jltournier60@...> jltournier60@...

or <mailto:jltournier@...> jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

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Dear Johanne,

> There was (as I recall) pretty much a consensus in our discussion
> of a few
> weeks ago that Edward had a ruddy complexion. Almost a peaches-and-
> cream
> complexion even though his hair had perhaps darkened. The portrait
> of Edward
> which looks like a match to the Society of Antiquaries Portrait of
> Richard
> is reproduced in *The Maligned King.* In that portrait, Edward's
> hair almost
> looks like auburn. So, it may still have seemed that Richard had a
> darker
> complexion that Edward, given that his hair was medium to dark brown

Yes, I'm familiar with this pair of portraits. Edward still looks to
me the darker of the two. Richard's hair is lighter (and has a very
pretty way of curling). If Edward's any pinker in complexion (can't
but think the wrong brother had the porcine emblem..!), and you're
looking to medicalise on appearances, it may be suggestive of high
blood-pressure, given that some sources suggest a heart attack or
stroke re: cause of death.

best wishes,
Marianne