Question about George Neville inheritance

Good morning, knowledgeable Ricardians!



I am enjoying skipping around in all the fascinating books I've picked up
recently - it's a surfeit of riches! Last night I was reading Annette
Carson's *Richard III: The Maligned King*.



The Anglo-Irish 7th. Earl of Desmond was ordered to be summarily executed in
Ireland during Edward IV's reign. But apparently he had been an old family
friend and supporter of Edward's. Carson indicates that in 1484 Richard sent
a letter with an ambassador to his successor, the 8th. Earl, sympathizing
with him and encouraging him in an effort to seek retributive justice in the
courts for the persons responsible for the 7th. Earl's death. According to
Carson, information had been conveyed to the Desmond family that that the
death was due to Elizabeth Woodville and that Richard may also have been
aware of that fact. Carson feels that Richard may have also held the
Woodvilles responsible for Clarence's execution.



My question is about Ms. Carson's consideration of possible other instances
of similar fates suffered by 'other nigh kinsmen and great friends,' to use
Richard's phrase in his written brief to the ambassador. Carson suggests
that Richard may have had George of Clarence, Henry, Earl of Essex and
Treasurer of England, and possibly even Edward IV himself in mind. She also
mentions George Neville, Richard's young cousin: ". . . has anyone ever
queried the whereabouts and circumstances of the death of his young cousin,
George Neville, which for reasons of inheritance had an enormously negative
impact on Richard's prospects?" (pg. 25)



I have followed the discussion on another thread of the (non-)attainder of
the Kingmaker's widow. Is the above in any way connected with her situation?
Does anyone know any more details about what happened to George Neville? I
take it from the Index that he was Duke of Bedford.



I hope someone can clarify this for me, as I find all these family
connections very confusing! Too many Edwards, Richards, and Georges!



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

George Neville, D. of Bedord was the intended betrothed of Anne Plantagenet (sister of Edward & richard) before that tie was grabbed by Thos. Grey (eldest son of Eliz. Woodville). He was a refugee in Calais in the period up to Tewkeskbury but returned pardonned (with the rest of the garrison?).

It was granted in 1470 (poss. as a sop to the Nevilles), and he was deprived of the Dukedom in 1478 supposedly because he did not garner the income worthy of and necessary for supporting the title (but that's probably bollocks though- just another example of Edward IV's card-sharping; treating the son like the father). The title was then given to George Plantagenet, son of Edward IV in 1478 but he died by 1479 (outbreak of plague). Arguably he wwas deprived of the title as part and parcel of the same squalid business surrounding the inheritence of the Countess of Warwick's estates, in which all three brothers distinguished themselvees with a singular lack of lustre.

Etc, etc.

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Good morning, knowledgeable Ricardians!
>
>
>
> I am enjoying skipping around in all the fascinating books I've picked up
> recently - it's a surfeit of riches! Last night I was reading Annette
> Carson's *Richard III: The Maligned King*.
>
>
>
> The Anglo-Irish 7th. Earl of Desmond was ordered to be summarily executed in
> Ireland during Edward IV's reign. But apparently he had been an old family
> friend and supporter of Edward's. Carson indicates that in 1484 Richard sent
> a letter with an ambassador to his successor, the 8th. Earl, sympathizing
> with him and encouraging him in an effort to seek retributive justice in the
> courts for the persons responsible for the 7th. Earl's death. According to
> Carson, information had been conveyed to the Desmond family that that the
> death was due to Elizabeth Woodville and that Richard may also have been
> aware of that fact. Carson feels that Richard may have also held the
> Woodvilles responsible for Clarence's execution.
>
>
>
> My question is about Ms. Carson's consideration of possible other instances
> of similar fates suffered by 'other nigh kinsmen and great friends,' to use
> Richard's phrase in his written brief to the ambassador. Carson suggests
> that Richard may have had George of Clarence, Henry, Earl of Essex and
> Treasurer of England, and possibly even Edward IV himself in mind. She also
> mentions George Neville, Richard's young cousin: ". . . has anyone ever
> queried the whereabouts and circumstances of the death of his young cousin,
> George Neville, which for reasons of inheritance had an enormously negative
> impact on Richard's prospects?" (pg. 25)
>
>
>
> I have followed the discussion on another thread of the (non-)attainder of
> the Kingmaker's widow. Is the above in any way connected with her situation?
> Does anyone know any more details about what happened to George Neville? I
> take it from the Index that he was Duke of Bedford.
>
>
>
> I hope someone can clarify this for me, as I find all these family
> connections very confusing! Too many Edwards, Richards, and Georges!
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> George Neville, D. of Bedord was the intended betrothed of Anne Plantagenet (sister of Edward & richard) before that tie was grabbed by Thos. Grey (eldest son of Eliz. Woodville). He was a refugee in Calais in the period up to Tewkeskbury but returned pardonned (with the rest of the garrison?).

After losing Anne of Exeter King Edward tried to buy Montagu's loyalty by promising a marriage between little George and his own eldest daughter, Elizabeth of York. That is when George was created Duke of Bedford.
Marie



>
> It was granted in 1470 (poss. as a sop to the Nevilles), and he was deprived of the Dukedom in 1478 supposedly because he did not garner the income worthy of and necessary for supporting the title (but that's probably bollocks though- just another example of Edward IV's card-sharping; treating the son like the father).

This was a royal duchy. I think you only have to look back at the reason why George Neville had been given the title in the first place, and Edward's fury at Montagu's treason as expressed in that earlier Act of parliament, to understand why Edward was happy to snatch the title back again for his baby son. I'm just surprised he hadn't done it earlier.The title was then given to George Plantagenet, son of Edward IV in 1478 but he died by 1479 (outbreak of plague).
Marie


Arguably he wwas deprived of the title as part and parcel of the same squalid business surrounding the inheritence of the Countess of Warwick's estates, in which all three brothers distinguished themselvees with a singular lack of lustre.

It's been argued but there's no evidence it had anything to do with Richard. Just part of that same train of argument used by Hicks and Pollard whereby Richard was resposnsible for everything Edward did.
Marie

<blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> George Neville, D. of Bedord was the intended betrothed of Anne Plantagenet (sister of Edward & richard) before that tie was grabbed by Thos. Grey (eldest son of Eliz. Woodville). He was a refugee in Calais in the period up to Tewkeskbury but returned pardonned (with the rest of the garrison?).

> It [his titles?] was granted in 1470 (poss. as a sop to the Nevilles), and he was deprived of the Dukedom in 1478 supposedly because he did not garner the income worthy of and necessary for supporting the title (but that's probably bollocks though- just another example of Edward IV's card-sharping; treating the son like the father). The title was then given to George Plantagenet, son of Edward IV in 1478 but he died by 1479 (outbreak of plague). Arguably he wwas deprived of the title as part and parcel of the same squalid business surrounding the inheritence of the Countess of Warwick's estates, in which all three brothers distinguished themselvees with a singular lack of lustre.

Carol responds:

Since George Neville was born in 1461, he would have been ten years old or thereabouts when Tewkesbury was fought. I've never heard of his being a refugee (in contrast to Richard and George Plantagenet at around the same age), and certainly he wasn't a member of the Calais garrison. Why would a child need a pardon? And why Tewkesbury since his father died at Barnet?

Also, are you sure that it was Anne that he was betrothed to? I thought that it was Elizabeth (until Picquigny, when Edward betrothed Elizabeth to the Dauphin). As you mention, he was deprived of his title in 1478, but I'm not sure of the circumstances (something about not enough money to maintain it; more likely, Edward just wanted it for his youngest son and no longer had any reason to reward the Nevilles). It had no direct connection with the nonattainder of his father seven years earlier, as far as I know.

I don't quite share your view of the "squalid business" of the nonattainder, in which Richard (unlike Edward and George) behaved as well as was possible, but I won't go back over that well-trod ground.

Carol

I'll re-phrase that last paragraph then :)

>>>He was deprived of the title as part and parcel of the same squalid
business surrounding the inheritence of the Countess of Warwick's estates, in which ARGUABLY all three brothers distinguished themselvees with a singular lack of
lustre.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@> wrote:
> >
> > George Neville, D. of Bedord was the intended betrothed of Anne Plantagenet (sister of Edward & richard) before that tie was grabbed by Thos. Grey (eldest son of Eliz. Woodville). He was a refugee in Calais in the period up to Tewkeskbury but returned pardonned (with the rest of the garrison?).
>
> After losing Anne of Exeter King Edward tried to buy Montagu's loyalty by promising a marriage between little George and his own eldest daughter, Elizabeth of York. That is when George was created Duke of Bedford.
> Marie
>
>
>
> >
> > It was granted in 1470 (poss. as a sop to the Nevilles), and he was deprived of the Dukedom in 1478 supposedly because he did not garner the income worthy of and necessary for supporting the title (but that's probably bollocks though- just another example of Edward IV's card-sharping; treating the son like the father).
>
> This was a royal duchy. I think you only have to look back at the reason why George Neville had been given the title in the first place, and Edward's fury at Montagu's treason as expressed in that earlier Act of parliament, to understand why Edward was happy to snatch the title back again for his baby son. I'm just surprised he hadn't done it earlier.The title was then given to George Plantagenet, son of Edward IV in 1478 but he died by 1479 (outbreak of plague).
> Marie
>
>
> Arguably he wwas deprived of the title as part and parcel of the same squalid business surrounding the inheritence of the Countess of Warwick's estates, in which all three brothers distinguished themselvees with a singular lack of lustre.
>
> It's been argued but there's no evidence it had anything to do with Richard. Just part of that same train of argument used by Hicks and Pollard whereby Richard was resposnsible for everything Edward did.
> Marie
>

blancsanglier1452wrote:
> >
> > George Neville, D. of Bedord was the intended betrothed of Anne Plantagenet (sister of Edward & richard) before that tie was grabbed by Thos. Grey (eldest son of Eliz. Woodville).<snip>

Marie responded:
> After losing Anne of Exeter King Edward tried to buy Montagu's loyalty by promising a marriage between little George and his own eldest daughter, Elizabeth of York. That is when George was created Duke of Bedford.

Carol responds:

Oh. Not Richard and Edward's sister, Anne, but her first daughter, Anne Holland, who was married (as a child?) to Thomas Grey, the Marquess of Dorset, and died before 1474. After that betrothal ended, Edward elevated George Neville to Duke of Bedford and betrothed him to Elizabeth of York until Edward took *her* away, too.

I thought it was more than a bit odd that George Neville, a child, would be betrothed to the (unhappily) married Anne of York, who was born in 1439!

Carol

Exactly!

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
> blancsanglier1452wrote:
> > >
> > > George Neville, D. of Bedord was the intended betrothed of Anne Plantagenet (sister of Edward & richard) before that tie was grabbed by Thos. Grey (eldest son of Eliz. Woodville).<snip>
>
> Marie responded:
> > After losing Anne of Exeter King Edward tried to buy Montagu's loyalty by promising a marriage between little George and his own eldest daughter, Elizabeth of York. That is when George was created Duke of Bedford.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Oh. Not Richard and Edward's sister, Anne, but her first daughter, Anne Holland, who was married (as a child?) to Thomas Grey, the Marquess of Dorset, and died before 1474. After that betrothal ended, Edward elevated George Neville to Duke of Bedford and betrothed him to Elizabeth of York until Edward took *her* away, too.
>
> I thought it was more than a bit odd that George Neville, a child, would be betrothed to the (unhappily) married Anne of York, who was born in 1439!
>
> Carol
>