Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Did Henry VI really bleed?

In a message dated 3/5/03 7:08:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
willison2001@... writes:


> That's a charming little story. I was just about to bite into a
> favourite snack as well.
>
> I wonder if the dog threw up?

Yeah it was from a medical list that helps writers who need information on
diseases and stuff. As for Henry VIII, I'm surprised he didn't fall through
completely
Victoria

{Loyaulte Me Lie{

In a message dated 3/6/03 4:21:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
marie@... writes:


> So the bleeding would have to do with the enbalming process, not
> wounds?
>
> Marie
>

According to this, it sounds that way. Another response said it wasn't even
blood, just the breakdown of muscle tissue and such that appears red
Victoria

{Loyaulte Me Lie{

Edward IV was probably the most popular monarch since Henry V in fairness to
him. He actually was extremely concious of his reputation - his court was
considered to be rather a well managed one, he was hospitable, entertaining
and a lavish builder - compared to Henry VI he was everything a medieval
monarch should be. The surviving wardrobe accounts suggest that he was
extremely concious of how his court and courtiers appeared given the orders
for clothing for them during state visits. He certainly modelled his court
as did most of Europe on the wealthy and elegant Burgundian one and he made
rather a good attempt on a much smaller budget judging by the surviving
descriptions. The Black Book and other Royal Edicts suggest that his aim
was to be as lavish as possible without wasting a farthing. He entertained
and was entertained by the Mayor of London and other Alderman according to
the London Chronicles this in itself was unusual and shows that the King was
quite surprisingly un snobbish about the merchant class aswell as
politically aware of how important they could be particularly in financial
terms.

In his first reign he was far more concilliatory and far more forgiving - I
certainly believe that the rebellion of 1469 and 70 changed him but he was
also growing older. Henry VI was a fairly pitiable creature but while he
lived he would remain a focus of rebellion so he was quietly got rid of.
Clarence was certainly a surprise given how many times he'd been a focus of
trouble and dissent but I suspect that Edward was more concerned about the
long term and the worrying thought of what might happen if Clarence outlived
him. The brother's were actually very simple and by all accounts Clarence
had tremendous charisma and charm. As to treating woman like "sex puppets"
well that's just not factual -there is no evidence that he ever forced a
woman into bed with him, he treated his wife very well indeed judging by the
confidence he placed in her in his 1475 will and certainly their
relationship seemed to survive his occassional alternative partners given
that they were clearly still sleeping together long after the necessity for
it had vanished. We know of very few women with whom Edward was linked -
Elizabeth Wydville, the mother of Viscount Lisle, the presumed mother of his
daughter Grace (mentioned at the funeral of EW), and Jane Shore plus Eleanor
Butler if you go in for the precontract allegation. Hardly a lot at all -
whilst he may well have been attractive to women and may have taken
advantage of the fact on a number of occassion there is little hard evidence
that these forays outside the marriage bed were particularly long lasting or
in fact all that frequent. Had he been an aggressive pursuer of woman with
or without their consent I would expect the chronicles from the period to
remark on it but they don't they tend to harp on about his personable nature
and charm.

Animalistic I think not.






> >
> > I doubt if many minded about Edward's love life and some may well
> > have enjoyed the idea. That's if the great unwashed even knew
> about
> > it. The point I was making was that Edward was sloppy about his
> > reputation. Richard made in clear that he was less than impressed
> with
> > the womanising, over-eating etc., Some would say that Richard was
> a
> > bit of a prig. But there is something animalistic about Edward.
> Did
> > he have to KILL Henry VI, a focal point of rebellion, but in
> prison,
> > or Clarence, a nuisance, but in prison? Did he have to treat women
> > like sex puppets?
> >
> > David
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
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>

Hi Tim

< As to treating woman like "sex puppets"
> well that's just not factual -there is no evidence that he ever
forced a woman into bed with him [snipped, w. apols]

Yep - you're absolutely right, and as I've said in the past, E4
has a recorded 'character reference' to that effect - one of the
chroniclers mentioned he took no woman by force. He kissed one
woman and she upped the financial donation she was intending to
give him - this suggests a charm and easy way with women, rather
than a brutal one.

So, I rather reject David's description of E4 being 'animalistic'
as another bit of Willison Hyperbole, although he wasn't all
always nice to be around - I find the observation that he often
ate so much that he made himself sick a bit and then carried
on where he left off a tad off-putting! :)

Lorraine

Hi,
I was suggesting that Edward raped women, just that he bribed
them into bed and then passed them on when he's had his way, which
was fairly callous, in my book. Animalistic? Certainly,
unfeeling... & unthinking!


--- In , "lpickering2"
<lpickering2@y...> wrote:
> Hi Tim
>
> < As to treating woman like "sex puppets"
> > well that's just not factual -there is no evidence that he ever
> forced a woman into bed with him [snipped, w. apols]
>
> Yep - you're absolutely right, and as I've said in the past, E4
> has a recorded 'character reference' to that effect - one of the
> chroniclers mentioned he took no woman by force. He kissed one
> woman and she upped the financial donation she was intending to
> give him - this suggests a charm and easy way with women, rather
> than a brutal one.
>
> So, I rather reject David's description of E4 being 'animalistic'
> as another bit of Willison Hyperbole, although he wasn't all
> always nice to be around - I find the observation that he often
> ate so much that he made himself sick a bit and then carried
> on where he left off a tad off-putting! :)
>
> Lorraine

Another typo...that should've been 'WASN'T suggesting that Edward...'

--- In , "willison2001"
<willison2001@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
> I was suggesting that Edward raped women, just that he bribed
> them into bed and then passed them on when he's had his way, which
> was fairly callous, in my book. Animalistic? Certainly,
> unfeeling... & unthinking!
>
>
> --- In , "lpickering2"
> <lpickering2@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Tim
> >
> > < As to treating woman like "sex puppets"
> > > well that's just not factual -there is no evidence that he ever
> > forced a woman into bed with him [snipped, w. apols]
> >
> > Yep - you're absolutely right, and as I've said in the past, E4
> > has a recorded 'character reference' to that effect - one of the
> > chroniclers mentioned he took no woman by force. He kissed one
> > woman and she upped the financial donation she was intending to
> > give him - this suggests a charm and easy way with women, rather
> > than a brutal one.
> >
> > So, I rather reject David's description of E4 being 'animalistic'
> > as another bit of Willison Hyperbole, although he wasn't all
> > always nice to be around - I find the observation that he often
> > ate so much that he made himself sick a bit and then carried
> > on where he left off a tad off-putting! :)
> >
> > Lorraine

hi David/Tim

< just that he bribed them into bed and then passed them on when he's
had his way, which was fairly callous, in my book.>

I can't remember this particular routine being noted by any
chronicler. Certainly Titulus Regius lays it on a bit thick
about the licentiousness of his court, but then that
particular document was drafted by Bishop Russell.

This obsession with licentiousness seems to be a trait of
churchmen of the time: Bishop Langton in one breath says
R3 'contents the people as ever did Prince' and then gets
all prissy about increasing sensuality holding sway. Now
either Richard was the prude that has been implied or he
was as mad for it as his brother was. I suspect the truth
is somewhere inbetween.

Churchmen have simply always been far too interested in the sex
lives of their flock, and I reckon their opinions on such things
can't be trusted.

If Jane Shore is who you're thinking of, here, then there's
no evidence to suggest that she was 'passed on' to Hastings
and Dorset. I'm sure Ms Shore was every bit as delightful as More
appears to have found her - hence her attraction to R's Solicitor
and Richard's implied acceptance of the match. I also suspect she
went to all her lovers' beds as a willing partner, and a savvy one.
She used her (cough) position to advance the petitions of the
disadvantaged, we're told, and so garnered the sympathy of the
capital's populace on the public penance that was ordered by the
Bishop of London.

Lorraine

Well as he was King, reputedly personally and physically attractive and even
when getting a bit podgy rather charming David I doubt very much that he had
to bribe them all that much to be honest. As to passing them on - well we
only have a few vague references none of them dating from the 1470's that he
may have passed on his mistresses to others at court such as Hastings or his
stepson....and it wasn't that unheard of at the English Court or anywhere
else for that matter. A man on the make would often take up with a
discarded Royal mistress from any European court as it was often a good way
to get ahead if the King was known to be particularly good to them in
retirement so to speak. The fact that one of his bastards was still in his
wife's household at her death suggests that he was far from callous about
his by blows and it also suggests that his wife was far from the jealous
harpy she's often portrayed as. She had no reason to keep the woman with
her after Edward's death but her presence at her funeral suggests that she
did.





----- Original Message -----
From: "willison2001" <willison2001@...>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Did Henry VI really bleed?


> Hi,
> I was suggesting that Edward raped women, just that he bribed
> them into bed and then passed them on when he's had his way, which
> was fairly callous, in my book. Animalistic? Certainly,
> unfeeling... & unthinking!
>
>
> --- In , "lpickering2"
> <lpickering2@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Tim
> >
> > < As to treating woman like "sex puppets"
> > > well that's just not factual -there is no evidence that he ever
> > forced a woman into bed with him [snipped, w. apols]
> >
> > Yep - you're absolutely right, and as I've said in the past, E4
> > has a recorded 'character reference' to that effect - one of the
> > chroniclers mentioned he took no woman by force. He kissed one
> > woman and she upped the financial donation she was intending to
> > give him - this suggests a charm and easy way with women, rather
> > than a brutal one.
> >
> > So, I rather reject David's description of E4 being 'animalistic'
> > as another bit of Willison Hyperbole, although he wasn't all
> > always nice to be around - I find the observation that he often
> > ate so much that he made himself sick a bit and then carried
> > on where he left off a tad off-putting! :)
> >
> > Lorraine
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Edward certainly had plenty of goodies to bribe them with.... As
for his personality being charming, I doubt if the various people
he had executed thought that. He seems to have been a bit of a
barrage baloon towards the end. Much depends upon how many women
he seduced. Richard in Titulus Regius would have us believe that
no woman was safe. But if this view of Edward was true some of the
women may have resented being treated as 'handmedowns.'

Of course it's possible that Richard was being a prig or this was
hypocritical propaganda designed to show what an angel from Heaven
Richard was by comparison with his older degenerate brother.


--- In , "tim" <tmc_dale@y...>
wrote:
> Well as he was King, reputedly personally and physically attractive
and even
> when getting a bit podgy rather charming David I doubt very much
that he had
> to bribe them all that much to be honest. As to passing them on -
well we
> only have a few vague references none of them dating from the 1470's
that he
> may have passed on his mistresses to others at court such as
Hastings or his
> stepson....and it wasn't that unheard of at the English Court or
anywhere
> else for that matter. A man on the make would often take up with a
> discarded Royal mistress from any European court as it was often a
good way
> to get ahead if the King was known to be particularly good to them
in
> retirement so to speak. The fact that one of his bastards was still
in his
> wife's household at her death suggests that he was far from callous
about
> his by blows and it also suggests that his wife was far from the
jealous
> harpy she's often portrayed as. She had no reason to keep the woman
with
> her after Edward's death but her presence at her funeral suggests
that she
> did.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "willison2001" <willison2001@y...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 3:40 PM
> Subject: Re: Did Henry VI really bleed?
>
>
> > Hi,
> > I was suggesting that Edward raped women, just that he bribed
> > them into bed and then passed them on when he's had his way, which
> > was fairly callous, in my book. Animalistic? Certainly,
> > unfeeling... & unthinking!
> >
> >
> > --- In , "lpickering2"
> > <lpickering2@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi Tim
> > >
> > > < As to treating woman like "sex puppets"
> > > > well that's just not factual -there is no evidence that he
ever
> > > forced a woman into bed with him [snipped, w. apols]
> > >
> > > Yep - you're absolutely right, and as I've said in the past, E4
> > > has a recorded 'character reference' to that effect - one of the
> > > chroniclers mentioned he took no woman by force. He kissed one
> > > woman and she upped the financial donation she was intending to
> > > give him - this suggests a charm and easy way with women, rather
> > > than a brutal one.
> > >
> > > So, I rather reject David's description of E4 being
'animalistic'
> > > as another bit of Willison Hyperbole, although he wasn't all
> > > always nice to be around - I find the observation that he often
> > > ate so much that he made himself sick a bit and then carried
> > > on where he left off a tad off-putting! :)
> > >
> > > Lorraine
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >