Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-09 20:30:31
I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
~Wednesday
It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
~Wednesday
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 01:45:35
"wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it.. <snip>
Carol responds:
I love Kendall, but he's been criticized for being too novelistic, and he didn't have access to newly discovered sources and so is mistaken on a few counts (for example, he calls Mistress Shore Jane instead of Elizabeth and is unaware that she really married Richard's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. If you haven't read Richard's letter on the matter yet, it's a treasure.) The standard full-length biography these days is by Charles Ross, who is less favorable than Kendall but far better than Desmond Seward, whose book I react to in exactly the way you describe. I have written corrections in the margins, along with intemperate reactions like "you absolute moron!"
I've also asked, quite seriously, what to do with such a book. If I keep it till I die, my executors will give it away to a book drive (no used book dealer would buy it; it's too marked up), and I really don't want some unsuspecting person to read it and believe Seward's venomous, er, misconceptions. I'd call them lies, but I think he really believes his own tripe. I don't believe in book burning, so I guess there's no choice but the recycle bin. Or I could put it in with such smelly garbage that no one would want to touch it. After all, why not put trash with trash (or rubbish, as the British say).
Whether any reputable historian has actually used him as a source, I don't know. Alison Weir might have used him, but since her views are as More-based and illogical as his, it wouldn't really matter.
My recommendations, besides Kendall and Ross, are Annette Carson's "Richard III: The Maligned King," John Ashdown-Hill's "The Last Days of Richard III," and Audrey Williamson's "Mystery of the Princes."
Most of the other books I've read are either too dry, too scholarly, or too hostile for me to feel comfortable recommending them. Michael Hicks may be an authority on the Nevilles in general, but I distrust anything he says about Anne Neville or her marriage to Edward of Lancaster, and he has an animus against Richard. The illustrations in Anthony Pollard's Richard III book are wonderful, but his "headstrong and ambitious Richard" is, as far as I'm concerned, the product of his own preconceptions.
Others may disagree, of course, but we seem to have similar reactions to Kendall and Seward, so I'm hoping that you'll like the three books I've recommended.
Carol
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it.. <snip>
Carol responds:
I love Kendall, but he's been criticized for being too novelistic, and he didn't have access to newly discovered sources and so is mistaken on a few counts (for example, he calls Mistress Shore Jane instead of Elizabeth and is unaware that she really married Richard's solicitor, Thomas Lynom. If you haven't read Richard's letter on the matter yet, it's a treasure.) The standard full-length biography these days is by Charles Ross, who is less favorable than Kendall but far better than Desmond Seward, whose book I react to in exactly the way you describe. I have written corrections in the margins, along with intemperate reactions like "you absolute moron!"
I've also asked, quite seriously, what to do with such a book. If I keep it till I die, my executors will give it away to a book drive (no used book dealer would buy it; it's too marked up), and I really don't want some unsuspecting person to read it and believe Seward's venomous, er, misconceptions. I'd call them lies, but I think he really believes his own tripe. I don't believe in book burning, so I guess there's no choice but the recycle bin. Or I could put it in with such smelly garbage that no one would want to touch it. After all, why not put trash with trash (or rubbish, as the British say).
Whether any reputable historian has actually used him as a source, I don't know. Alison Weir might have used him, but since her views are as More-based and illogical as his, it wouldn't really matter.
My recommendations, besides Kendall and Ross, are Annette Carson's "Richard III: The Maligned King," John Ashdown-Hill's "The Last Days of Richard III," and Audrey Williamson's "Mystery of the Princes."
Most of the other books I've read are either too dry, too scholarly, or too hostile for me to feel comfortable recommending them. Michael Hicks may be an authority on the Nevilles in general, but I distrust anything he says about Anne Neville or her marriage to Edward of Lancaster, and he has an animus against Richard. The illustrations in Anthony Pollard's Richard III book are wonderful, but his "headstrong and ambitious Richard" is, as far as I'm concerned, the product of his own preconceptions.
Others may disagree, of course, but we seem to have similar reactions to Kendall and Seward, so I'm hoping that you'll like the three books I've recommended.
Carol
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 09:07:01
Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
Regards
Loyaulte me Lie.
Christine
________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
~Wednesday
Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
Regards
Loyaulte me Lie.
Christine
________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
~Wednesday
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 14:07:59
Amen!
My list of essential pro-Ricardian texts:
Tey, "The Daughter of Time"
Kendall
Carson, "The Maligned King"
Lamb, "The Betrayal of Richard III"
Hammond and Sutton, "Richard III: the Road to Bosworth Field"
Ashdown-Hill (anything of his, really, but "The Last Days of Richard III" in particular)
Potter, "Good King Richard?"
Penman, "The Sunne in Splendor"
There are some others that are both VERY good and VERY costly, so I'd keep an eye out for anything by Rosemary Horrox or Anne Sutton, who did excellent compilations of documents issued by Richard's clerical staff before and during his kingship, and his coronation--stuff like that. Anybody other than the folks on this list have been, as far as I can tell, imbued with the spirit of attributing a bone-evil character to the most innocent actions: a good gambit to watch out for is their reaction to Richard's public announcement, after he was widowed, that he had no intention whatsoever of marrying his niece. A reasonable historian will attribute this to Richard taking firm steps to stop the whisper campaign of his rivals; an unreasonable one will assert that Richard really MEANT to marry Elizabeth and only denied it publicly to take off the heat.
Everybody hassles Kendall for writing cinematically--the Barnet and Tewkesbury sections, in particular, are in a breathless you-are-there style--but I've seen that before and remain relentlessly unbothered, so enh. Ms. Carson recommended Dr. Hanham's "Richard III and His Early Historians", but I found it Januslike in its ability to record faithfully the content of historical documents and draw conclusions 180% in opposition to what they showed. Ross made me cross; I think I may have gotten as far as the second chapter before deciding that the bookseller I paid for it got the best of the bargain.
My standards in historical reportage are simple: you're not allowed to say stuff like, "It's true that there's no record of a credible contemporary accusation of the murder of Richard's nephews... so he probably paid off a bunch of people to keep it quiet." I made a note just recently in a book to the effect that this particular chapter was riddled with "perhaps"es, "maybe"s, and "probably"s, which rendered it largely suppository in nature.
--- In , C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
> Â
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
My list of essential pro-Ricardian texts:
Tey, "The Daughter of Time"
Kendall
Carson, "The Maligned King"
Lamb, "The Betrayal of Richard III"
Hammond and Sutton, "Richard III: the Road to Bosworth Field"
Ashdown-Hill (anything of his, really, but "The Last Days of Richard III" in particular)
Potter, "Good King Richard?"
Penman, "The Sunne in Splendor"
There are some others that are both VERY good and VERY costly, so I'd keep an eye out for anything by Rosemary Horrox or Anne Sutton, who did excellent compilations of documents issued by Richard's clerical staff before and during his kingship, and his coronation--stuff like that. Anybody other than the folks on this list have been, as far as I can tell, imbued with the spirit of attributing a bone-evil character to the most innocent actions: a good gambit to watch out for is their reaction to Richard's public announcement, after he was widowed, that he had no intention whatsoever of marrying his niece. A reasonable historian will attribute this to Richard taking firm steps to stop the whisper campaign of his rivals; an unreasonable one will assert that Richard really MEANT to marry Elizabeth and only denied it publicly to take off the heat.
Everybody hassles Kendall for writing cinematically--the Barnet and Tewkesbury sections, in particular, are in a breathless you-are-there style--but I've seen that before and remain relentlessly unbothered, so enh. Ms. Carson recommended Dr. Hanham's "Richard III and His Early Historians", but I found it Januslike in its ability to record faithfully the content of historical documents and draw conclusions 180% in opposition to what they showed. Ross made me cross; I think I may have gotten as far as the second chapter before deciding that the bookseller I paid for it got the best of the bargain.
My standards in historical reportage are simple: you're not allowed to say stuff like, "It's true that there's no record of a credible contemporary accusation of the murder of Richard's nephews... so he probably paid off a bunch of people to keep it quiet." I made a note just recently in a book to the effect that this particular chapter was riddled with "perhaps"es, "maybe"s, and "probably"s, which rendered it largely suppository in nature.
--- In , C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
> Â
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 15:48:42
Seward's book should be torn up into sheets and hung in the lavatory for later use!
Paul
On 10 Nov 2012, at 09:06, C HOLMES wrote:
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
>
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Paul
On 10 Nov 2012, at 09:06, C HOLMES wrote:
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
>
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 15:59:56
I finally got my Maligned King and the print is so tiny cannot read it. So disappointed. Maybe I will contact amazon and request a larger print.
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Nov 10, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
> Seward's book should be torn up into sheets and hung in the lavatory for later use!
> Paul
>
> On 10 Nov 2012, at 09:06, C HOLMES wrote:
>
> > Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> > Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> > I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> > Regards
> > Loyaulte me Lie.
> > Christine
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> > Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
> >
> > It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
> >
> > Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
> >
> > I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
> >
> > Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
> >
> > ~Wednesday
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Nov 10, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
> Seward's book should be torn up into sheets and hung in the lavatory for later use!
> Paul
>
> On 10 Nov 2012, at 09:06, C HOLMES wrote:
>
> > Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> > Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> > I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> > Regards
> > Loyaulte me Lie.
> > Christine
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> > Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
> >
> > It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
> >
> > Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
> >
> > I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
> >
> > Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
> >
> > ~Wednesday
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 16:09:20
Hear, hear!
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
Seward's book should be torn up into sheets and hung in the lavatory for later use!
Paul
On 10 Nov 2012, at 09:06, C HOLMES wrote:
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
>
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
Seward's book should be torn up into sheets and hung in the lavatory for later use!
Paul
On 10 Nov 2012, at 09:06, C HOLMES wrote:
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
>
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 19:49:09
Another very useful book to add to your purchases Wednesday, would be Dr Ashdown-Hill's 'Eleanor - Secret Queen'. This book would give you a good insight into how things panned out the way they did regarding Edward's two sons. Eileen
--- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...> wrote:
>
> Amen!
>
> My list of essential pro-Ricardian texts:
> Tey, "The Daughter of Time"
> Kendall
> Carson, "The Maligned King"
> Lamb, "The Betrayal of Richard III"
> Hammond and Sutton, "Richard III: the Road to Bosworth Field"
> Ashdown-Hill (anything of his, really, but "The Last Days of Richard III" in particular)
> Potter, "Good King Richard?"
> Penman, "The Sunne in Splendor"
>
> There are some others that are both VERY good and VERY costly, so I'd keep an eye out for anything by Rosemary Horrox or Anne Sutton, who did excellent compilations of documents issued by Richard's clerical staff before and during his kingship, and his coronation--stuff like that. Anybody other than the folks on this list have been, as far as I can tell, imbued with the spirit of attributing a bone-evil character to the most innocent actions: a good gambit to watch out for is their reaction to Richard's public announcement, after he was widowed, that he had no intention whatsoever of marrying his niece. A reasonable historian will attribute this to Richard taking firm steps to stop the whisper campaign of his rivals; an unreasonable one will assert that Richard really MEANT to marry Elizabeth and only denied it publicly to take off the heat.
>
> Everybody hassles Kendall for writing cinematically--the Barnet and Tewkesbury sections, in particular, are in a breathless you-are-there style--but I've seen that before and remain relentlessly unbothered, so enh. Ms. Carson recommended Dr. Hanham's "Richard III and His Early Historians", but I found it Januslike in its ability to record faithfully the content of historical documents and draw conclusions 180% in opposition to what they showed. Ross made me cross; I think I may have gotten as far as the second chapter before deciding that the bookseller I paid for it got the best of the bargain.
>
> My standards in historical reportage are simple: you're not allowed to say stuff like, "It's true that there's no record of a credible contemporary accusation of the murder of Richard's nephews... so he probably paid off a bunch of people to keep it quiet." I made a note just recently in a book to the effect that this particular chapter was riddled with "perhaps"es, "maybe"s, and "probably"s, which rendered it largely suppository in nature.
>
> --- In , C HOLMES <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> > Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> > I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> > Regards
> > Loyaulte me Lie.
> > Christine
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> > Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
> >
> > It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
> >
> > Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
> >
> > I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
> >
> > Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
> >
> > ~Wednesday
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...> wrote:
>
> Amen!
>
> My list of essential pro-Ricardian texts:
> Tey, "The Daughter of Time"
> Kendall
> Carson, "The Maligned King"
> Lamb, "The Betrayal of Richard III"
> Hammond and Sutton, "Richard III: the Road to Bosworth Field"
> Ashdown-Hill (anything of his, really, but "The Last Days of Richard III" in particular)
> Potter, "Good King Richard?"
> Penman, "The Sunne in Splendor"
>
> There are some others that are both VERY good and VERY costly, so I'd keep an eye out for anything by Rosemary Horrox or Anne Sutton, who did excellent compilations of documents issued by Richard's clerical staff before and during his kingship, and his coronation--stuff like that. Anybody other than the folks on this list have been, as far as I can tell, imbued with the spirit of attributing a bone-evil character to the most innocent actions: a good gambit to watch out for is their reaction to Richard's public announcement, after he was widowed, that he had no intention whatsoever of marrying his niece. A reasonable historian will attribute this to Richard taking firm steps to stop the whisper campaign of his rivals; an unreasonable one will assert that Richard really MEANT to marry Elizabeth and only denied it publicly to take off the heat.
>
> Everybody hassles Kendall for writing cinematically--the Barnet and Tewkesbury sections, in particular, are in a breathless you-are-there style--but I've seen that before and remain relentlessly unbothered, so enh. Ms. Carson recommended Dr. Hanham's "Richard III and His Early Historians", but I found it Januslike in its ability to record faithfully the content of historical documents and draw conclusions 180% in opposition to what they showed. Ross made me cross; I think I may have gotten as far as the second chapter before deciding that the bookseller I paid for it got the best of the bargain.
>
> My standards in historical reportage are simple: you're not allowed to say stuff like, "It's true that there's no record of a credible contemporary accusation of the murder of Richard's nephews... so he probably paid off a bunch of people to keep it quiet." I made a note just recently in a book to the effect that this particular chapter was riddled with "perhaps"es, "maybe"s, and "probably"s, which rendered it largely suppository in nature.
>
> --- In , C HOLMES <christineholmes651@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> > Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> > I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> > Regards
> > Loyaulte me Lie.
> > Christine
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> > Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> > I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
> >
> > It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
> >
> > Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
> >
> > I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
> >
> > Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
> >
> > ~Wednesday
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
2012-11-10 21:01:15
What about We Speak No Treason? It's the first Ricardian novel I ever read and one of the best.
________________________________
From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 14:07
Subject: Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
Amen!
My list of essential pro-Ricardian texts:
Tey, "The Daughter of Time"
Kendall
Carson, "The Maligned King"
Lamb, "The Betrayal of Richard III"
Hammond and Sutton, "Richard III: the Road to Bosworth Field"
Ashdown-Hill (anything of his, really, but "The Last Days of Richard III" in particular)
Potter, "Good King Richard?"
Penman, "The Sunne in Splendor"
There are some others that are both VERY good and VERY costly, so I'd keep an eye out for anything by Rosemary Horrox or Anne Sutton, who did excellent compilations of documents issued by Richard's clerical staff before and during his kingship, and his coronation--stuff like that. Anybody other than the folks on this list have been, as far as I can tell, imbued with the spirit of attributing a bone-evil character to the most innocent actions: a good gambit to watch out for is their reaction to Richard's public announcement, after he was widowed, that he had no intention whatsoever of marrying his niece. A reasonable historian will attribute this to Richard taking firm steps to stop the whisper campaign of his rivals; an unreasonable one will assert that Richard really MEANT to marry Elizabeth and only denied it publicly to take off the heat.
Everybody hassles Kendall for writing cinematically--the Barnet and Tewkesbury sections, in particular, are in a breathless you-are-there style--but I've seen that before and remain relentlessly unbothered, so enh. Ms. Carson recommended Dr. Hanham's "Richard III and His Early Historians", but I found it Januslike in its ability to record faithfully the content of historical documents and draw conclusions 180% in opposition to what they showed. Ross made me cross; I think I may have gotten as far as the second chapter before deciding that the bookseller I paid for it got the best of the bargain.
My standards in historical reportage are simple: you're not allowed to say stuff like, "It's true that there's no record of a credible contemporary accusation of the murder of Richard's nephews... so he probably paid off a bunch of people to keep it quiet." I made a note just recently in a book to the effect that this particular chapter was riddled with "perhaps"es, "maybe"s, and "probably"s, which rendered it largely suppository in nature.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
> Â
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: mcjohn_wt_net <mcjohn@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 10 November 2012, 14:07
Subject: Re: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
Amen!
My list of essential pro-Ricardian texts:
Tey, "The Daughter of Time"
Kendall
Carson, "The Maligned King"
Lamb, "The Betrayal of Richard III"
Hammond and Sutton, "Richard III: the Road to Bosworth Field"
Ashdown-Hill (anything of his, really, but "The Last Days of Richard III" in particular)
Potter, "Good King Richard?"
Penman, "The Sunne in Splendor"
There are some others that are both VERY good and VERY costly, so I'd keep an eye out for anything by Rosemary Horrox or Anne Sutton, who did excellent compilations of documents issued by Richard's clerical staff before and during his kingship, and his coronation--stuff like that. Anybody other than the folks on this list have been, as far as I can tell, imbued with the spirit of attributing a bone-evil character to the most innocent actions: a good gambit to watch out for is their reaction to Richard's public announcement, after he was widowed, that he had no intention whatsoever of marrying his niece. A reasonable historian will attribute this to Richard taking firm steps to stop the whisper campaign of his rivals; an unreasonable one will assert that Richard really MEANT to marry Elizabeth and only denied it publicly to take off the heat.
Everybody hassles Kendall for writing cinematically--the Barnet and Tewkesbury sections, in particular, are in a breathless you-are-there style--but I've seen that before and remain relentlessly unbothered, so enh. Ms. Carson recommended Dr. Hanham's "Richard III and His Early Historians", but I found it Januslike in its ability to record faithfully the content of historical documents and draw conclusions 180% in opposition to what they showed. Ross made me cross; I think I may have gotten as far as the second chapter before deciding that the bookseller I paid for it got the best of the bargain.
My standards in historical reportage are simple: you're not allowed to say stuff like, "It's true that there's no record of a credible contemporary accusation of the murder of Richard's nephews... so he probably paid off a bunch of people to keep it quiet." I made a note just recently in a book to the effect that this particular chapter was riddled with "perhaps"es, "maybe"s, and "probably"s, which rendered it largely suppository in nature.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Wednesday, Have you read Annette Carson's The Maligned King, it's very good, not like the Hicks and Weir etc.
> Its a good clear read which I would recommend to anyone either new to Richard or just wanting to read more on Richard.
> I also feel like getting rid of some of the books I have read as much as I love books and would hate to destroy one, but it's very tempting with some of them.
> Regards
> Loyaulte me Lie.
> Christine
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 9 November 2012, 20:30
> Subject: Seward's "Black Legend" and Kendall's Biography
>
>
> Â
>
> I'm currently reading Kendall's appendices, after which I'll go back to the beginning and read from there. I don't usually read books in reverse, it's just that I got pulled into his assessment of Henry VII's nail-biting reign and kept going when he brought up the mystery of the murders.
>
> It's so nice to sink into his style; it's like listening to a reliable lecturer who takes the time to lay out his arguments while you're curled up in front of a warm fire.
>
> Seward, on the other hand...ngh. I keep picking up the book, reading a little, feeling sick at the relentless, poisonous presentation, putting the book back down, dreading going back to it...and so must ask: how much respect did this work command back in 1979/82 when it was published, and what's its reputation now? I think I've found multiple historical errors in the first few pages, but I'm no expert, and the author seems determined to paint Richard as a Machievellian sociopath with no redeeming attributes at all.
>
> I usually enjoy reading differing points of view, but this book makes me feel like I need to clean my brain and light a candle for Richard. I'm about to chuck it back at the library unfinished.
>
> Opinions? Help? And perhaps a list of biographies beyond Kendall that withstand time and prejudice?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
>
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