Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers" by G.K. Chesterton

If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle
Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one shoulder
slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the men
he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even the
tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable even
of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music, and
he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or evil,
and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships of
the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for the
crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace among
its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.



But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as for
the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this case
at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as the
sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as that
of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not likely
to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force destroyed.
So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
the crown of England under a bush of thorn.



- End Pt. 2

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Typo -

". . . yet with think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on
sufferance."



Should read: ". . . yet we think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly,
as on sufferance."



I hope that's the only typo.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers" by
G.K. Chesterton





If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle
Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one shoulder
slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the men
he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even the
tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable even
of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music, and
he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or evil,
and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships of
the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for the
crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace among
its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.

But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as for
the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this case
at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as the
sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as that
of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not likely
to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force destroyed.
So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
the crown of England under a bush of thorn.

- End Pt. 2

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>

or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Beautiful.........

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Nov 14, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:

> If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle
> Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
> better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
> him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
> the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one shoulder
> slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
> swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
> not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
> of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the men
> he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even the
> tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
> tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
> crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
> very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable even
> of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
> good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
> think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
> anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music, and
> he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
> pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
> cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
> of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
> throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
> touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
> high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
> face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
> pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
> before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
> is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or evil,
> and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
> civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
> canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships of
> the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
> inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for the
> crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace among
> its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.
>
> But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
> there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
> kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
> down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as for
> the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this case
> at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
> the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as the
> sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
> trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as that
> of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not likely
> to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
> ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
> Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force destroyed.
> So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
> usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
> the crown of England under a bush of thorn.
>
> - End Pt. 2
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>

Bravo.....Eileen

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle
> Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
> better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
> him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
> the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one shoulder
> slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
> swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
> not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
> of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the men
> he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even the
> tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
> tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
> crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
> very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable even
> of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
> good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
> think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
> anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music, and
> he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
> pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
> cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
> of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
> throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
> touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
> high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
> face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
> pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
> before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
> is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or evil,
> and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
> civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
> canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships of
> the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
> inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for the
> crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace among
> its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.
>
>
>
> But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
> there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
> kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
> down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as for
> the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this case
> at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
> the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as the
> sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
> trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as that
> of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not likely
> to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
> ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
> Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force destroyed.
> So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
> usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
> the crown of England under a bush of thorn.
>
>
>
> - End Pt. 2
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

::sniffle::

Maybe that sums up why we miss him. And maybe it also sums up what seems to be missing from much of the world today. Honor and loyalty.

Thank you for finding and posting this, Johanne. It's a lovely tribute to him, idn't it?

~Wednesday

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle
> Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
> better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
> him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
> the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one shoulder
> slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
> swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
> not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
> of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the men
> he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even the
> tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
> tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
> crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
> very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable even
> of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
> good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
> think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
> anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music, and
> he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
> pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
> cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
> of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
> throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
> touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
> high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
> face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
> pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
> before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
> is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or evil,
> and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
> civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
> canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships of
> the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
> inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for the
> crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace among
> its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.
>
>
>
> But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
> there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
> kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
> down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as for
> the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this case
> at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
> the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as the
> sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
> trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as that
> of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not likely
> to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
> ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
> Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force destroyed.
> So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
> usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
> the crown of England under a bush of thorn.
>
>
>
> - End Pt. 2
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

It is an absolutely beautiful piece of writing. I came upon that extract a couple of months back whilst sorting through the Richard III items in the Barton Papers Library and was very struck by both its beauty and its essential truth.
Marie

--- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Beautiful.........
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> > If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle
> > Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
> > better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
> > him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
> > the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one shoulder
> > slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
> > swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
> > not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
> > of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the men
> > he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even the
> > tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
> > tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
> > crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
> > very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable even
> > of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
> > good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
> > think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
> > anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music, and
> > he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
> > pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
> > cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
> > of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
> > throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
> > touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
> > high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
> > face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
> > pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
> > before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
> > is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or evil,
> > and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
> > civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
> > canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships of
> > the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
> > inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for the
> > crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace among
> > its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.
> >
> > But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
> > there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
> > kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
> > down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as for
> > the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this case
> > at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
> > the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as the
> > sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
> > trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as that
> > of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not likely
> > to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
> > ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
> > Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force destroyed.
> > So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
> > usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
> > the crown of England under a bush of thorn.
> >
> > - End Pt. 2
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Hi, Wed -



"Haunting" is the word that occurs to me . . . I love being able to find
things that others find evocative, and Chesterton's words certainly are. It
would be interesting to find if he ever wrote anything else about Richard.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:28 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
by G.K. Chesterton





::sniffle::

Maybe that sums up why we miss him. And maybe it also sums up what seems to
be missing from much of the world today. Honor and loyalty.

Thank you for finding and posting this, Johanne. It's a lovely tribute to
him, idn't it?

~Wednesday

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the
Middle
> Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
> better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
> him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
> the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one
shoulder
> slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
> swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
> not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
> of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the
men
> he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even
the
> tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
> tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
> crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
> very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable
even
> of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
> good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
> think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
> anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music,
and
> he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
> pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
> cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
> of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
> throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
> touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
> high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
> face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
> pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
> before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
> is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or
evil,
> and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
> civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
> canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships
of
> the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
> inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for
the
> crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace
among
> its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.
>
>
>
> But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
> there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
> kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
> down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as
for
> the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this
case
> at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
> the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as
the
> sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
> trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as
that
> of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not
likely
> to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
> ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
> Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force
destroyed.
> So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
> usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
> the crown of England under a bush of thorn.
>
>
>
> - End Pt. 2
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes it would be interesting to know his views on the bastard-feudal economy. Any takers?

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Wed -
>
>
>
> "Haunting" is the word that occurs to me . . . I love being able to find
> things that others find evocative, and Chesterton's words certainly are. It
> would be interesting to find if he ever wrote anything else about Richard.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:28 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
> by G.K. Chesterton
>
>
>
>
>
> ::sniffle::
>
> Maybe that sums up why we miss him. And maybe it also sums up what seems to
> be missing from much of the world today. Honor and loyalty.
>
> Thank you for finding and posting this, Johanne. It's a lovely tribute to
> him, idn't it?
>
> ~Wednesday
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the
> Middle
> > Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
> > better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
> > him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
> > the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one
> shoulder
> > slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
> > swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
> > not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
> > of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the
> men
> > he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even
> the
> > tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
> > tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
> > crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
> > very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable
> even
> > of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
> > good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
> > think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
> > anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music,
> and
> > he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
> > pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
> > cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
> > of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
> > throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
> > touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
> > high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
> > face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
> > pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
> > before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
> > is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or
> evil,
> > and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
> > civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
> > canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships
> of
> > the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
> > inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for
> the
> > crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace
> among
> > its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.
> >
> >
> >
> > But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
> > there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
> > kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
> > down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as
> for
> > the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this
> case
> > at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
> > the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as
> the
> > sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
> > trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as
> that
> > of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not
> likely
> > to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
> > ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
> > Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force
> destroyed.
> > So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
> > usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
> > the crown of England under a bush of thorn.
> >
> >
> >
> > - End Pt. 2
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Marie -

Is it presumptuous to suggest that it evidences an essentially Catholic
sensibility? I am thinking that in his homage to Richard he is also creating
an homage to a lost era which Richard symbolized.



Is this extract already available online in the Barton Papers Library? And
how much of the rest of the chapter which precedes the discussion of RIII?
You will notice that some of his consideration of the nature of kingship,
the different views of the Yorks versus the Lancasters with their power
bases, the brief discussion of the role of the bishops is both fascinating
and relevant to the dilemma faced by Richard. And I wonder how Edward IV
dealt with it? Or - did he just ignore the world and the changing times and
hope they would go away - leaving Richard to try to clean up the mess??



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mariewalsh2003
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:41 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
by G.K. Chesterton





It is an absolutely beautiful piece of writing. I came upon that extract a
couple of months back whilst sorting through the Richard III items in the
Barton Papers Library and was very struck by both its beauty and its
essential truth.
Marie

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Richard Yahoo
<bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Beautiful.........
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>



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Totally agree. Incredibly poetic.



________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 19:41
Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers" by G.K. Chesterton

 
It is an absolutely beautiful piece of writing. I came upon that extract a couple of months back whilst sorting through the Richard III items in the Barton Papers Library and was very struck by both its beauty and its essential truth.
Marie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Beautiful.........
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 12:39 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> > If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle
> > Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no
> > better study than the riddle of Richard III. Of course, scarcely a line of
> > him was like the caricature with which his much meaner successor placarded
> > the world when he was dead. He was not even a hunchback; he had one shoulder
> > slightly higher than the other, probably the effect of his furious
> > swordsmanship on a naturally slender and sensitive frame. Yet his soul, if
> > not his body, haunts us somehow as the crooked shadow of a straight knight
> > of better days. He was not an ogre shedding rivers of blood; some of the men
> > he executed deserved it as much as any men of that wicked time; and even the
> > tale of his murdered nephews is not certain, and is told by those who also
> > tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair. Yet a
> > crimson cloud cannot be dispelled from his memory, and, so tainted is the
> > very air of that time with carnage, that we cannot say he was incapable even
> > of the things of which he may have been innocent. Whether or no he was a
> > good man, he was apparently a good king and even a popular one; yet with
> > think of him vaguely, and not, I fancy, untruly, as on sufferance. He
> > anticipated the Renaissance in an abnormal enthusiasm to art and music, and
> > he seems to have held to the old paths of religion and charity. He did not
> > pluck perpetually at his sword and dagger because his only pleasure was in
> > cutting throats; he probably did it because he was nervous. It was the age
> > of our first portrait-painting, and a fine contemporary portrait of him
> > throws a more plausible light on this particular detail. For it shows him
> > touching, and probably twisting, a ring on his finger, the very act of a
> > high-strung personality who would also fidget with a dagger. And in his
> > face, as there painted, we can study all that has made it worth while to
> > pause so long upon his name; an atmosphere very different from everything
> > before and after. The face has a remarkable intellectual beauty; but there
> > is something else on the face that is hardly in itself either good or evil,
> > and that thing is death; the death of an epoch, the death of a great
> > civilization, the death of something which once sang to the sun in the
> > canticle of St. Francis and sailed to the ends of the earth in the ships of
> > the First Crusade, but which in peace wearied and turned its weapons
> > inwards, wounded its own brethren, broke its own loyalties, gambled for the
> > crown, and grew feverish even about the creed, and has this one grace among
> > its dying virtues, that its valour is the last to die.
> >
> > But whatever else may have been bad or good about Richard of Gloucester,
> > there was a touch about him which makes him truly the last of the medieval
> > kings. It is expressed in the one word which he cried aloud as he struck
> > down foe after foe in the last charge at Bosworth - treason. For him, as for
> > the first Norman kings, treason was the same as treachery; and in this case
> > at least it was the same as treachery. When his nobles deserted him before
> > the battle, he did not regard it as a new political combination, but as the
> > sin of false friends and faithless servants. Using his own voice like the
> > trumpet of a herald, he challenged his rival to a fight as personal as that
> > of two paladins of Charlemagne. His rival did not reply, and was not likely
> > to reply. The modern world had begun. The call echoed unanswered down the
> > ages; for since that day no English king has fought after that fashion.
> > Having slain many, he was himself slain and his diminished force destroyed.
> > So ended the war of the usurpers; and the last and most doubtful of the
> > usurpers, a wanderer from the Welsh marches, a knight from nowhere, found
> > the crown of England under a bush of thorn.
> >
> > - End Pt. 2
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Marie -
>
> Is it presumptuous to suggest that it evidences an essentially Catholic
> sensibility? I am thinking that in his homage to Richard he is also creating
> an homage to a lost era which Richard symbolized.


Not at all presumptuous - I think you are absolutely right. The Middle Ages seems to have meant two completely different things to the Catholic and Protestant mindsets when I was a child (which was a long time ago) - hoepfully we're all coming out of that. To Protestants it was all a time of darkness, superstition and the burning of heretics. To Catholics the post-Reformation Tudor era was the time of martyrdom, and the Middle Ages a sort of ideal world when England was Mary's Dower. Each side only told half the story.


>
>
>
> Is this extract already available online in the Barton Papers Library? And
> how much of the rest of the chapter which precedes the discussion of RIII?

None of the Barton Papers Library is online except the catalogue, and that is out of date. Papers are available for UK members to borrow. Anything out of copyright can be emailed. I don't think there is much more in the extract in the library than was posted here today - just what someone typed out many years back.
Any US Society members should feel free to contact me if they see anything in the catalogue they would like to read, and I'll see qwhat can be done.
Marie




> You will notice that some of his consideration of the nature of kingship,
> the different views of the Yorks versus the Lancasters with their power
> bases, the brief discussion of the role of the bishops is both fascinating
> and relevant to the dilemma faced by Richard. And I wonder how Edward IV
> dealt with it? Or - did he just ignore the world and the changing times and
> hope they would go away - leaving Richard to try to clean up the mess??

I doubt any of them saw themselves as at the cusp of a new age. They just did what came naturally.
Marie



>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mariewalsh2003
> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:41 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
> by G.K. Chesterton
>
>
>
>
>
> It is an absolutely beautiful piece of writing. I came upon that extract a
> couple of months back whilst sorting through the Richard III items in the
> Barton Papers Library and was very struck by both its beauty and its
> essential truth.
> Marie
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Richard Yahoo
> <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Beautiful.........
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
>
>
>
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Marie wrote:
>
> It is an absolutely beautiful piece of writing. I came upon that extract a couple of months back whilst sorting through the Richard III items in the Barton Papers Library and was very struck by both its beauty and its essential truth.

Carol responds:

Unless we count "those who also tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair." Not even Rous or Vergil went that far. Also, I'm not at all convinced that Richard ever played with his dagger, an image that appears in Vergil but not the Croyland Chronicles or any contemporary description, IIRC. And, of course, Chesterton is writing at a time when many important documents had not yet been discovered. Still, I agree, it's a poetic tribute. It reminds me of a book whose author and title I can't remember (I read a sample of it online but didn't buy it) that talks about Richard's death on Bosworth Field as the last embodiment of chivalry, an idea that was already dying and died with him. I dislike marking the end of the Middle Ages so clearly (the Yorkist kings anticipated the Renaissance in many respects and much about the Tudors, especially Henry VII, was medieval), but I understand the appeal of this idea. Treason and treachery *were* synonymous to Richard, whose creed was loyalty.

Carol

By "its essential truth" I did not mean that it was totally factually correct; I meant that Chesterton had put his finger on something about the difference between Richard and Henry as individuals, and how the one personality belonged in many ways to the old world that was dying, and the other to the new one that was struggling to emerge. Other writers have remarked upon the same thing - Kendall, Michael K. Jones and David Hipshom to name but a few.
Marie

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Marie wrote:
> >
> > It is an absolutely beautiful piece of writing. I came upon that extract a couple of months back whilst sorting through the Richard III items in the Barton Papers Library and was very struck by both its beauty and its essential truth.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Unless we count "those who also tell us he was born with tusks and was originally covered with hair." Not even Rous or Vergil went that far. Also, I'm not at all convinced that Richard ever played with his dagger, an image that appears in Vergil but not the Croyland Chronicles or any contemporary description, IIRC. And, of course, Chesterton is writing at a time when many important documents had not yet been discovered. Still, I agree, it's a poetic tribute. It reminds me of a book whose author and title I can't remember (I read a sample of it online but didn't buy it) that talks about Richard's death on Bosworth Field as the last embodiment of chivalry, an idea that was already dying and died with him. I dislike marking the end of the Middle Ages so clearly (the Yorkist kings anticipated the Renaissance in many respects and much about the Tudors, especially Henry VII, was medieval), but I understand the appeal of this idea. Treason and treachery *were* synonymous to Richard, whose creed was loyalty.
>
> Carol
>

Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> > If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the Middle Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there is no better study than the riddle of Richard III. <snip>

Eileen commented:
>
> Bravo.....Eileen

Carol responds:

I think there may be some confusion here since some posters (not just Eileen) seem to think these are Johanne's own words. Johanne is actually quoting G.K. Chesterton's "War of the Usurpers" (which perhaps could have been clearer in the original post),

Carol

Hey, Carol -

There was not only my introduction to Pt. 1, but there are my subject lines
to both messages, which make it quite clear that I am excerpting Chesterton.




I don't mind of course getting kudos for something I've actually written,
but I do hope that there was no confusion as to what I was sending in this
case.



Take a look at Wednesday's post, "Thank you for finding and posting this
Johanne" - and Marie noting that she had found this when going through the
Barton Library materials.



So - I do hope it was clear. I am not into plagiarism!



I would apologize if anyone was confused - but my whole purpose was to
reproduce a classic essay on Richard that many people here might not have
been familiar with. (Remember, I mentioned the Short History by Chesterton a
couple days ago, and Karen said she would be interested to see it.)



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 12:01 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
by G.K. Chesterton







Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> > If we desire at all to catch the strange colours of the sunset of the
Middle Ages, to see what had changed yet not wholly killed chivalry, there
is no better study than the riddle of Richard III. <snip>

Eileen commented:
>
> Bravo.....Eileen

Carol responds:

I think there may be some confusion here since some posters (not just
Eileen) seem to think these are Johanne's own words. Johanne is actually
quoting G.K. Chesterton's "War of the Usurpers" (which perhaps could have
been clearer in the original post),

Carol

Marie wrote:
>
> By "its essential truth" I did not mean that it was totally factually correct; I meant that Chesterton had put his finger on something about the difference between Richard and Henry as individuals, and how the one personality belonged in many ways to the old world that was dying, and the other to the new one that was struggling to emerge. Other writers have remarked upon the same thing - Kendall, Michael K. Jones and David Hipshom to name but a few.

Carol responds:

David Hipshon! That's the name I couldn't remember. I've sampled his book on Richard III and the death of chivalry but haven't read the whole thing. Is it worth buying, do you think? ("You" meaning everybody, not just Marie).

Still, though, I don't think we can pinpoint a particular day when the Middle Ages became the Renaissance in England. For example, Henry VII's Catholicism was identical to Richard's. But, absolutely, he had no spark of chivalry in him; he was concerned with survival and making sure that no lord or noble became an "overmighty subject." And, of course, propaganda and killing off Yorkist heirs. How ironic and cynical that he should employ Arthurian legend as a propaganda device.

Carol

Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> Hey, Carol -
>
> There was not only my introduction to Pt. 1, but there are my subject lines to both messages, which make it quite clear that I am excerpting Chesterton.
>
> I don't mind of course getting kudos for something I've actually written, but I do hope that there was no confusion as to what I was sending in this case.
> <snip>

Carol responds:

Hi, Johanne. I did see the subject line as well as Marie's post, but I also saw other posts that seemed to suggest that the writers thought that you were the author of Chesterton's poetic passage. I just think that it would have been clearer if you had set off Chesterton's words in quotation marks and perhaps commented on them afterwards. The subject line an your short intro apparently didn't make that quite clear to some readers. (It did to Marie and me, but evidently not to everyone.)

Just a friendly suggestion.

Carol

Hi, Carol -

But I did that for Part 1 and I believed that everyone would read Pt. 1
first and then go on to Pt. 2.



I understand what you're saying and maybe you're right, but it seemed quite
clear to me.



I hope that if anyone else who commented -Eileen? Ishita? Anyone else? -
would let me know if you were confused about who was the author of that
essay, I would appreciate it.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:40 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
by G.K. Chesterton





Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> Hey, Carol -
>
> There was not only my introduction to Pt. 1, but there are my subject
lines to both messages, which make it quite clear that I am excerpting
Chesterton.
>
> I don't mind of course getting kudos for something I've actually written,
but I do hope that there was no confusion as to what I was sending in this
case.
> <snip>

Carol responds:

Hi, Johanne. I did see the subject line as well as Marie's post, but I also
saw other posts that seemed to suggest that the writers thought that you
were the author of Chesterton's poetic passage. I just think that it would
have been clearer if you had set off Chesterton's words in quotation marks
and perhaps commented on them afterwards. The subject line an your short
intro apparently didn't make that quite clear to some readers. (It did to
Marie and me, but evidently not to everyone.)

Just a friendly suggestion.

Carol

On 15 Nov 2012, at 16:51, justcarol67 wrote:

> David Hipshon! That's the name I couldn't remember. I've sampled his book on Richard III and the death of chivalry but haven't read the whole thing. Is it worth buying, do you think? ("You" meaning everybody, not just Marie).

Hipshon's book The Death of Chivalry made me look forward to his biography of Richard. I was majorly disappointed. But the first book is well worth reading.
Paul

Richard Liveth Yet!

No problem...I was aware that Johanne was not the author...Eileen

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Carol -
>
> But I did that for Part 1 and I believed that everyone would read Pt. 1
> first and then go on to Pt. 2.
>
>
>
> I understand what you're saying and maybe you're right, but it seemed quite
> clear to me.
>
>
>
> I hope that if anyone else who commented -Eileen? Ishita? Anyone else? -
> would let me know if you were confused about who was the author of that
> essay, I would appreciate it.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:40 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
> by G.K. Chesterton
>
>
>
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> > Hey, Carol -
> >
> > There was not only my introduction to Pt. 1, but there are my subject
> lines to both messages, which make it quite clear that I am excerpting
> Chesterton.
> >
> > I don't mind of course getting kudos for something I've actually written,
> but I do hope that there was no confusion as to what I was sending in this
> case.
> > <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, Johanne. I did see the subject line as well as Marie's post, but I also
> saw other posts that seemed to suggest that the writers thought that you
> were the author of Chesterton's poetic passage. I just think that it would
> have been clearer if you had set off Chesterton's words in quotation marks
> and perhaps commented on them afterwards. The subject line an your short
> intro apparently didn't make that quite clear to some readers. (It did to
> Marie and me, but evidently not to everyone.)
>
> Just a friendly suggestion.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"Notebooks out, plagarists!!!" -Mark E. Smith

LOL

--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Carol -
>
> But I did that for Part 1 and I believed that everyone would read Pt. 1
> first and then go on to Pt. 2.
>
>
>
> I understand what you're saying and maybe you're right, but it seemed quite
> clear to me.
>
>
>
> I hope that if anyone else who commented -Eileen? Ishita? Anyone else? -
> would let me know if you were confused about who was the author of that
> essay, I would appreciate it.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:40 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
> by G.K. Chesterton
>
>
>
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> > Hey, Carol -
> >
> > There was not only my introduction to Pt. 1, but there are my subject
> lines to both messages, which make it quite clear that I am excerpting
> Chesterton.
> >
> > I don't mind of course getting kudos for something I've actually written,
> but I do hope that there was no confusion as to what I was sending in this
> case.
> > <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, Johanne. I did see the subject line as well as Marie's post, but I also
> saw other posts that seemed to suggest that the writers thought that you
> were the author of Chesterton's poetic passage. I just think that it would
> have been clearer if you had set off Chesterton's words in quotation marks
> and perhaps commented on them afterwards. The subject line an your short
> intro apparently didn't make that quite clear to some readers. (It did to
> Marie and me, but evidently not to everyone.)
>
> Just a friendly suggestion.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Probably I did not help with my reply 'Bravo' as it was not clear who I was actually bravoing....Although Johanne did deserve thanks for typing that lovely piece out for us...

--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> "Notebooks out, plagarists!!!" -Mark E. Smith
>
> LOL
>
> --- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Carol -
> >
> > But I did that for Part 1 and I believed that everyone would read Pt. 1
> > first and then go on to Pt. 2.
> >
> >
> >
> > I understand what you're saying and maybe you're right, but it seemed quite
> > clear to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope that if anyone else who commented -Eileen? Ishita? Anyone else? -
> > would let me know if you were confused about who was the author of that
> > essay, I would appreciate it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:40 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
> > by G.K. Chesterton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, Carol -
> > >
> > > There was not only my introduction to Pt. 1, but there are my subject
> > lines to both messages, which make it quite clear that I am excerpting
> > Chesterton.
> > >
> > > I don't mind of course getting kudos for something I've actually written,
> > but I do hope that there was no confusion as to what I was sending in this
> > case.
> > > <snip>
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Hi, Johanne. I did see the subject line as well as Marie's post, but I also
> > saw other posts that seemed to suggest that the writers thought that you
> > were the author of Chesterton's poetic passage. I just think that it would
> > have been clearer if you had set off Chesterton's words in quotation marks
> > and perhaps commented on them afterwards. The subject line an your short
> > intro apparently didn't make that quite clear to some readers. (It did to
> > Marie and me, but evidently not to everyone.)
> >
> > Just a friendly suggestion.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Thanks, Eileen! However, I did interpret your "Bravo" as being directed
toward Mr. Chesterton, not myself, although I appreciate your mention of my
typing skills. <smile>



I am glad to know that it doesn't appear that people misinterpreted the
authorship of that piece, thank goodness.



I will, however, take due care next time I send in another literary excerpt.




Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:53 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the Usurpers"
by G.K. Chesterton





Probably I did not help with my reply 'Bravo' as it was not clear who I was
actually bravoing....Although Johanne did deserve thanks for typing that
lovely piece out for us...

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "blancsanglier1452"
<blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> "Notebooks out, plagarists!!!" -Mark E. Smith
>
> LOL
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Carol -
> >
> > But I did that for Part 1 and I believed that everyone would read Pt. 1
> > first and then go on to Pt. 2.
> >
> >
> >
> > I understand what you're saying and maybe you're right, but it seemed
quite
> > clear to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > I hope that if anyone else who commented -Eileen? Ishita? Anyone else? -
> > would let me know if you were confused about who was the author of that
> > essay, I would appreciate it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2012 1:40 PM
> > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Pt. 2 - "The War of the
Usurpers"
> > by G.K. Chesterton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, Carol -
> > >
> > > There was not only my introduction to Pt. 1, but there are my subject
> > lines to both messages, which make it quite clear that I am excerpting
> > Chesterton.
> > >
> > > I don't mind of course getting kudos for something I've actually
written,
> > but I do hope that there was no confusion as to what I was sending in
this
> > case.
> > > <snip>
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Hi, Johanne. I did see the subject line as well as Marie's post, but I
also
> > saw other posts that seemed to suggest that the writers thought that you
> > were the author of Chesterton's poetic passage. I just think that it
would
> > have been clearer if you had set off Chesterton's words in quotation
marks
> > and perhaps commented on them afterwards. The subject line an your short
> > intro apparently didn't make that quite clear to some readers. (It did
to
> > Marie and me, but evidently not to everyone.)
> >
> > Just a friendly suggestion.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>