George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice & Fire"

I have a friend who's a retired librarian. She dug up this regarding Martin's series, "A Song of Ice & Fire," and the tie-in to the War of the Roses.

---

Just off the top of my head, yes. I definitely remember reading that he had based the northern island on England and the wall in the north is based on Hadrian's Wall.

"In 1991, Martin briefly returned to writing novels and began what would eventually turn into his epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire (reportedly inspired by the Wars of the Roses and Ivanhoe)..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin

GRRM took the War of the Roses as inspiration but there is not an exact one-to-one match between history and fiction. The story in the chronicles of "A Song of Ice and Fire" gives a longer history of a larger place roughly analogous to here-and-now England.

Martin draws some inspiration from historical persons for his characters and events but there is not an exact progression. One can see that the "First Men" are roughly equivalent to the historical Celts. The Andals with their seven kingdoms are roughly equivalent to the historical Saxons and the seven kingdoms they established in England (Kent, Mercia etc...), and the Targaryens are roughly the Normans. This is where the historical trends end their one-to-one mappings.

The direct historical parallels that can be clearly seen are:

Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick.
The Starks as the powerful Percy Family (Earls of Northumbria and rivals of the Nevilles)
Margaery Tyrell as Elizabeth Woodville.
Bran and Rickon Stark as the "Princes in the Tower"
Cersei Lannister as Margaret of Anjou.
Robert Baratheon as Henry Bolingbroke (Henry IV)

GRRM also drew inspiration from other events in history. For instance he has stated the that the "Black Dinner", which happened before the War of the Roses in Scotland, was his inspiration for the "Red Wedding".

Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict.

The book series, in short, captures the spirit of history but is not a one-to-one allegory.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

As was mentioned above, there are some similarities between the two. Lannister and Stark sounds similar to Lancaster and York. The feud between the Nevilles and Percys mirrors the feud between the Starks and Lannisters. The overthrow of Aerys II Targaryen by Robert Baratheon mirrors the overthrow of Richard II by Henry IV. Cersei Lannister is similar to Queen Margaret of Anjou.

There are other similarities that have yet to be mentioned. The brothers Henry V, John, Duke of Bedford, and Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester are respectively similar to the three Baratheon brothers Robert, Stannis and Renly. Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI and Queen Margaret, had his paternity questioned and had a reputation for relishing beheadings, which was perhaps the inspiration for Joffrey. The taint of madness in the royal families of France and England at the time is also seen in ASOIAF with the Targaryens.

So a lot of similarities and inspiration. But not a perfect match.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

Wednesday,
That's very helpful!! Thanks.



Ishita Bandyo

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________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2012 3:16 PM
Subject: George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice & Fire"


 
I have a friend who's a retired librarian. She dug up this regarding Martin's series, "A Song of Ice & Fire," and the tie-in to the War of the Roses.

---

Just off the top of my head, yes. I definitely remember reading that he had based the northern island on England and the wall in the north is based on Hadrian's Wall.

"In 1991, Martin briefly returned to writing novels and began what would eventually turn into his epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire (reportedly inspired by the Wars of the Roses and Ivanhoe)..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin

GRRM took the War of the Roses as inspiration but there is not an exact one-to-one match between history and fiction. The story in the chronicles of "A Song of Ice and Fire" gives a longer history of a larger place roughly analogous to here-and-now England.

Martin draws some inspiration from historical persons for his characters and events but there is not an exact progression. One can see that the "First Men" are roughly equivalent to the historical Celts. The Andals with their seven kingdoms are roughly equivalent to the historical Saxons and the seven kingdoms they established in England (Kent, Mercia etc...), and the Targaryens are roughly the Normans. This is where the historical trends end their one-to-one mappings.

The direct historical parallels that can be clearly seen are:

Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick.
The Starks as the powerful Percy Family (Earls of Northumbria and rivals of the Nevilles)
Margaery Tyrell as Elizabeth Woodville.
Bran and Rickon Stark as the "Princes in the Tower"
Cersei Lannister as Margaret of Anjou.
Robert Baratheon as Henry Bolingbroke (Henry IV)

GRRM also drew inspiration from other events in history. For instance he has stated the that the "Black Dinner", which happened before the War of the Roses in Scotland, was his inspiration for the "Red Wedding".

Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict.

The book series, in short, captures the spirit of history but is not a one-to-one allegory.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

As was mentioned above, there are some similarities between the two. Lannister and Stark sounds similar to Lancaster and York. The feud between the Nevilles and Percys mirrors the feud between the Starks and Lannisters. The overthrow of Aerys II Targaryen by Robert Baratheon mirrors the overthrow of Richard II by Henry IV. Cersei Lannister is similar to Queen Margaret of Anjou.

There are other similarities that have yet to be mentioned. The brothers Henry V, John, Duke of Bedford, and Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester are respectively similar to the three Baratheon brothers Robert, Stannis and Renly. Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI and Queen Margaret, had his paternity questioned and had a reputation for relishing beheadings, which was perhaps the inspiration for Joffrey. The taint of madness in the royal families of France and England at the time is also seen in ASOIAF with the Targaryens.

So a lot of similarities and inspiration. But not a perfect match.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

You could have come up with the story, then, by writing characters names on cards, then shuffling them and dealing out to fictional families for your book.

One of the best scenes from S1: so who is Tyrion supposed to be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbUeobf0MRg&feature=related


Apparently they changed a lot more things from the book in S2.  I hate that.


________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 20:16
Subject: George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice & Fire"


 
I have a friend who's a retired librarian. She dug up this regarding Martin's series, "A Song of Ice & Fire," and the tie-in to the War of the Roses.

---

Just off the top of my head, yes. I definitely remember reading that he had based the northern island on England and the wall in the north is based on Hadrian's Wall.

"In 1991, Martin briefly returned to writing novels and began what would eventually turn into his epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire (reportedly inspired by the Wars of the Roses and Ivanhoe)..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin

GRRM took the War of the Roses as inspiration but there is not an exact one-to-one match between history and fiction. The story in the chronicles of "A Song of Ice and Fire" gives a longer history of a larger place roughly analogous to here-and-now England.

Martin draws some inspiration from historical persons for his characters and events but there is not an exact progression. One can see that the "First Men" are roughly equivalent to the historical Celts. The Andals with their seven kingdoms are roughly equivalent to the historical Saxons and the seven kingdoms they established in England (Kent, Mercia etc...), and the Targaryens are roughly the Normans. This is where the historical trends end their one-to-one mappings.

The direct historical parallels that can be clearly seen are:

Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick.
The Starks as the powerful Percy Family (Earls of Northumbria and rivals of the Nevilles)
Margaery Tyrell as Elizabeth Woodville.
Bran and Rickon Stark as the "Princes in the Tower"
Cersei Lannister as Margaret of Anjou.
Robert Baratheon as Henry Bolingbroke (Henry IV)

GRRM also drew inspiration from other events in history. For instance he has stated the that the "Black Dinner", which happened before the War of the Roses in Scotland, was his inspiration for the "Red Wedding".

Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict.

The book series, in short, captures the spirit of history but is not a one-to-one allegory.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

As was mentioned above, there are some similarities between the two. Lannister and Stark sounds similar to Lancaster and York. The feud between the Nevilles and Percys mirrors the feud between the Starks and Lannisters. The overthrow of Aerys II Targaryen by Robert Baratheon mirrors the overthrow of Richard II by Henry IV. Cersei Lannister is similar to Queen Margaret of Anjou.

There are other similarities that have yet to be mentioned. The brothers Henry V, John, Duke of Bedford, and Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester are respectively similar to the three Baratheon brothers Robert, Stannis and Renly. Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI and Queen Margaret, had his paternity questioned and had a reputation for relishing beheadings, which was perhaps the inspiration for Joffrey. The taint of madness in the royal families of France and England at the time is also seen in ASOIAF with the Targaryens.

So a lot of similarities and inspiration. But not a perfect match.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

Wednesday (or the person she was quoting) wrote:

<snip>
> Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict. <snip>

Carol responds:
Wait. I'm confused. Richard Neville (the Earl of Warwick) was first the enemy and then the uneasy ally of Margaret of Anjou. His daughters were Isabel (married George of Clarence) and Anne (married Richard of Gloucester, later Richard III). They *were* members of different families--Margaret, or Marguerite, was Henry VI's French queen (and a bitter enemy of Edward IV and his brother Richard, whose father and brother Edmund died because of her opposition to their father. Since Warwick's father and brother died in the same battle, his reconciliation with her is hard to understand even given his anger at his cousin Edward IV.)

Wednesday (?) wrote:
Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI and Queen Margaret, had his paternity questioned and had a reputation for relishing beheadings, which was perhaps the inspiration for Joffrey.

Carol responds:

That would be Edward of *Lancaster*, the Lancastrian heir killed at Tewkesbury. "Edward of Winchester" is a term I used (following Paul's(?) use of "Richard of Shrewsbury" for Edward IV's younger son) for Prince Edward/Edward V/ Edward Bastard, the deposed and uncrowned older son of Edward IV. It's hard to know what to call him since he was bastardized by Titulus Regius and Richard's claim depends on his being illegitimate. I guess I'll stick with calling him Edward IV's older son.

Carol

I find it easier to refer to all three by the titles they held during their
lives. It saves confusion!

Warwick's alliance with Margaret of Anjou, given their history, is what
leaves the door open for Warwick to have had a genuine rethink about the
rightness of the Yorkist claim to the throne. Not that I'd suggest for a
moment that this was the driving force behind his change of sides, but if
it's looked at dynastically (his support was for Edward Prince of Wales's
claim, rather than Margaret of Anjou's return to queenship) it makes a
little more sense. Interestingly, the questioning of the paternity of the
Prince of Wales was concocted and fomented by Warwick and York. It seems to
have been pretty much baseless.

Salisbury wasn't killed at the battle of Wakefield (though Warwick's
brother, Thomas, was). He survived, laid low and was captured. He was
beheaded the following day at Pontefract castle, reportedly by the Bastard
of Exeter (one of only a handful of men with a price on their head after
Towton). He is usually listed with the Wakefield dead, so the confusion here
is understandable.

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 01:36:00 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: George R.R. Martin's "A Song of
Ice & Fire"






Wednesday (or the person she was quoting) wrote:

<snip>
> Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of
Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from
history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict. <snip>

Carol responds:
Wait. I'm confused. Richard Neville (the Earl of Warwick) was first the
enemy and then the uneasy ally of Margaret of Anjou. His daughters were
Isabel (married George of Clarence) and Anne (married Richard of Gloucester,
later Richard III). They *were* members of different families--Margaret, or
Marguerite, was Henry VI's French queen (and a bitter enemy of Edward IV and
his brother Richard, whose father and brother Edmund died because of her
opposition to their father. Since Warwick's father and brother died in the
same battle, his reconciliation with her is hard to understand even given
his anger at his cousin Edward IV.)

Wednesday (?) wrote:
Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI and Queen Margaret, had his paternity
questioned and had a reputation for relishing beheadings, which was perhaps
the inspiration for Joffrey.

Carol responds:

That would be Edward of *Lancaster*, the Lancastrian heir killed at
Tewkesbury. "Edward of Winchester" is a term I used (following Paul's(?) use
of "Richard of Shrewsbury" for Edward IV's younger son) for Prince
Edward/Edward V/ Edward Bastard, the deposed and uncrowned older son of
Edward IV. It's hard to know what to call him since he was bastardized by
Titulus Regius and Richard's claim depends on his being illegitimate. I
guess I'll stick with calling him Edward IV's older son.

Carol

Well, I have always seen it like this:

Robert Baratheon = Edward IV, whose death calls Richard of Gloucester (= Ned Stark) south to the capital (King's Landing = London). Elizabeth Woodville (= Cersei Lannister)'s sons are declared bastards (or, in ASOIAF, they are bastards indeed!), though in ASOIAF fiction they keep the throne, while Ned/Richard is executed by the Lannister/Woodville faction. The Boltons up north, waiting for the Starks' misfortunes, are like the Percys of the situation (more or less.)

Also, in general, the Baratheons stands for the York side, having taken the throne from the previous rulers, Targaryens/Lancaster whose coat of arms is the dragon (so, will Daenerys Targaryen finally come back to Westeros as Henry Tudor with his dragon badge?).

Of course, other situations/characters are very loosely connected, so it's really an alternative version of the War of the Roses.

Cecilia



________________________________
Da: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
A:
Inviato: Mercoledì 14 Novembre 2012 21:16
Oggetto: George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice & Fire"


 
I have a friend who's a retired librarian. She dug up this regarding Martin's series, "A Song of Ice & Fire," and the tie-in to the War of the Roses.

---

Just off the top of my head, yes. I definitely remember reading that he had based the northern island on England and the wall in the north is based on Hadrian's Wall.

"In 1991, Martin briefly returned to writing novels and began what would eventually turn into his epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire (reportedly inspired by the Wars of the Roses and Ivanhoe)..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin

GRRM took the War of the Roses as inspiration but there is not an exact one-to-one match between history and fiction. The story in the chronicles of "A Song of Ice and Fire" gives a longer history of a larger place roughly analogous to here-and-now England.

Martin draws some inspiration from historical persons for his characters and events but there is not an exact progression. One can see that the "First Men" are roughly equivalent to the historical Celts. The Andals with their seven kingdoms are roughly equivalent to the historical Saxons and the seven kingdoms they established in England (Kent, Mercia etc...), and the Targaryens are roughly the Normans. This is where the historical trends end their one-to-one mappings.

The direct historical parallels that can be clearly seen are:

Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick.
The Starks as the powerful Percy Family (Earls of Northumbria and rivals of the Nevilles)
Margaery Tyrell as Elizabeth Woodville.
Bran and Rickon Stark as the "Princes in the Tower"
Cersei Lannister as Margaret of Anjou.
Robert Baratheon as Henry Bolingbroke (Henry IV)

GRRM also drew inspiration from other events in history. For instance he has stated the that the "Black Dinner", which happened before the War of the Roses in Scotland, was his inspiration for the "Red Wedding".

Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict.

The book series, in short, captures the spirit of history but is not a one-to-one allegory.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

As was mentioned above, there are some similarities between the two. Lannister and Stark sounds similar to Lancaster and York. The feud between the Nevilles and Percys mirrors the feud between the Starks and Lannisters. The overthrow of Aerys II Targaryen by Robert Baratheon mirrors the overthrow of Richard II by Henry IV. Cersei Lannister is similar to Queen Margaret of Anjou.

There are other similarities that have yet to be mentioned. The brothers Henry V, John, Duke of Bedford, and Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester are respectively similar to the three Baratheon brothers Robert, Stannis and Renly. Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI and Queen Margaret, had his paternity questioned and had a reputation for relishing beheadings, which was perhaps the inspiration for Joffrey. The taint of madness in the royal families of France and England at the time is also seen in ASOIAF with the Targaryens.

So a lot of similarities and inspiration. But not a perfect match.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses

Most of the characters are an amalgam. Robb Stark can also be I yet preyed as Edward IV as he wins the three battles and declares himself as king. While little Stan can be seen as Dickon, ruling the north as his brother's deputy. Like I said I think GRMM left his characters open ended and for us to marvel about.

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Nov 15, 2012, at 3:20 AM, Cecilia Latella <cabepfir@...> wrote:

> Well, I have always seen it like this:
>
> Robert Baratheon = Edward IV, whose death calls Richard of Gloucester (= Ned Stark) south to the capital (King's Landing = London). Elizabeth Woodville (= Cersei Lannister)'s sons are declared bastards (or, in ASOIAF, they are bastards indeed!), though in ASOIAF fiction they keep the throne, while Ned/Richard is executed by the Lannister/Woodville faction. The Boltons up north, waiting for the Starks' misfortunes, are like the Percys of the situation (more or less.)
>
> Also, in general, the Baratheons stands for the York side, having taken the throne from the previous rulers, Targaryens/Lancaster whose coat of arms is the dragon (so, will Daenerys Targaryen finally come back to Westeros as Henry Tudor with his dragon badge?).
>
> Of course, other situations/characters are very loosely connected, so it's really an alternative version of the War of the Roses.
>
> Cecilia
>
> ________________________________
> Da: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
> A:
> Inviato: Mercoledì 14 Novembre 2012 21:16
> Oggetto: George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice & Fire"
>
>
>
> I have a friend who's a retired librarian. She dug up this regarding Martin's series, "A Song of Ice & Fire," and the tie-in to the War of the Roses.
>
> ---
>
> Just off the top of my head, yes. I definitely remember reading that he had based the northern island on England and the wall in the north is based on Hadrian's Wall.
>
> "In 1991, Martin briefly returned to writing novels and began what would eventually turn into his epic fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire (reportedly inspired by the Wars of the Roses and Ivanhoe)..."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin
>
> GRRM took the War of the Roses as inspiration but there is not an exact one-to-one match between history and fiction. The story in the chronicles of "A Song of Ice and Fire" gives a longer history of a larger place roughly analogous to here-and-now England.
>
> Martin draws some inspiration from historical persons for his characters and events but there is not an exact progression. One can see that the "First Men" are roughly equivalent to the historical Celts. The Andals with their seven kingdoms are roughly equivalent to the historical Saxons and the seven kingdoms they established in England (Kent, Mercia etc...), and the Targaryens are roughly the Normans. This is where the historical trends end their one-to-one mappings.
>
> The direct historical parallels that can be clearly seen are:
>
> Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick.
> The Starks as the powerful Percy Family (Earls of Northumbria and rivals of the Nevilles)
> Margaery Tyrell as Elizabeth Woodville.
> Bran and Rickon Stark as the "Princes in the Tower"
> Cersei Lannister as Margaret of Anjou.
> Robert Baratheon as Henry Bolingbroke (Henry IV)
>
> GRRM also drew inspiration from other events in history. For instance he has stated the that the "Black Dinner", which happened before the War of the Roses in Scotland, was his inspiration for the "Red Wedding".
>
> Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict.
>
> The book series, in short, captures the spirit of history but is not a one-to-one allegory.
> http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses
>
> As was mentioned above, there are some similarities between the two. Lannister and Stark sounds similar to Lancaster and York. The feud between the Nevilles and Percys mirrors the feud between the Starks and Lannisters. The overthrow of Aerys II Targaryen by Robert Baratheon mirrors the overthrow of Richard II by Henry IV. Cersei Lannister is similar to Queen Margaret of Anjou.
>
> There are other similarities that have yet to be mentioned. The brothers Henry V, John, Duke of Bedford, and Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester are respectively similar to the three Baratheon brothers Robert, Stannis and Renly. Edward of Westminster, son of Henry VI and Queen Margaret, had his paternity questioned and had a reputation for relishing beheadings, which was perhaps the inspiration for Joffrey. The taint of madness in the royal families of France and England at the time is also seen in ASOIAF with the Targaryens.
>
> So a lot of similarities and inspiration. But not a perfect match.
> http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/4029/is-there-a-connection-between-game-of-thrones-and-the-war-of-the-roses
>
>
>
>

Wednesday (or the person she was quoting) wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Casting Tywin Lannister as Richard Neville and Cersei Lannister as Margret of Anjou places father and daughter from fiction in two different families from history, indeed on two different sides of the conflict. <snip>
>
> Carol responded:
> Wait. I'm confused. Richard Neville (the Earl of Warwick) was first the enemy and then the uneasy ally of Margaret of Anjou. His daughters were Isabel (married George of Clarence) and Anne (married Richard of Gloucester, later Richard III). They *were* members of different families <snip>

Carol again:

My apologies, Wednesday. I just realized that you meant the fictional Lannisters were father and daughter. Sorry about my confusion!

Carol