ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face

I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."

His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already.

Full article here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9681019/Scientists-to-reconstruct-Richard-IIIs-face.html

Oh, excellent news!

Karen

From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 03:56:31 -0000
To: <>
Subject: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
R3's face






I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The
answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University
experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a
three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."

His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks
promising already.

Full article here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9681019/Scientists-to-reconstruct-Richard
-IIIs-face.html

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
>
> His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already.

Is that how you read it? How long does a DNA test take? "Further tests are being carried out to verify the lineage of Michael Ibsen...."
What are we to think?
Marie




>
> Full article here:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9681019/Scientists-to-reconstruct-Richard-IIIs-face.html
>

wednesday_mc wrote:
>
> I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
>
> His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>

Carol responds:

Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.

Carol

One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> wednesday_mc wrote:
> >
> > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> >
> > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
>
> Carol
>

Since certain soft tissue features remain speculative in these reconstructions, based upon averages for the ethnicity, etc., of the individual, there may be a slight reliance on the artwork....

Judy 
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face


 

One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> wednesday_mc wrote:
> >
> > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> >
> > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
>
> Carol
>

Eileen, I was wondering g about that too.

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Nov 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

>
> One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> >
> > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > >
> > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > >
> > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>

Yeah Ishita....hopefully I am wrong...Eileen

--- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Eileen, I was wondering g about that too.
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Nov 16, 2012, at 10:56 AM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> > --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > > >
> > > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Thanks Judy...just seen you reply. You are kind of saying what I am worry about....Eileen

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Since certain soft tissue features remain speculative in these reconstructions, based upon averages for the ethnicity, etc., of the individual, there may be a slight reliance on the artwork....
>
> Judy 
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:56 AM
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
>
>
>  
>
> One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > >
> > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > >
> > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

On second reading, I think they're hedging their bets as far as the documentary is concerned. As in, scan the bones, we want to have the computer-generated appearance, height, weight, etc. ready for our documentary when the DNA analysis is complete."

I also think they're curious as all heck to see if that skull resembles the portraits. Forensic reconstruction has reached the point that the reconstructionists can create a three-dimensional image of, say, a murder victim of a cold case, release the image, and have someone call to say, "Oh, sweet heaven, that's my sister."

What are we to think? I personally think the university, the town, and the Society are analyzing the remains so completely that if they announce the bones are Richard's, there's very little possibility of anyone accusing them of cutting corners, jumping to conclusions, or skewing the results because of personal agendas. There will be so much scientific evidence that it's him, arguments against it being him will be few, if not nil.

Just my opinion; your mileage may vary.

~Wednesday

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:

Wednesday wrote:
> > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already.
>
> Is that how you read it? How long does a DNA test take? "Further tests are being carried out to verify the lineage of Michael Ibsen...."
> What are we to think?
> Marie
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Full article here:
> > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9681019/Scientists-to-reconstruct-Richard-IIIs-face.html
> >
>

But I wouldn't worry overmuch. The tissues in question (details of lips, nostrils, amount of adipose (fat), etc.) won't be so questionable. The orbits of the eyes, the cheeks, the jaw line, brow, and the general structure of the nose will all create exacting proportional configurations that narrow down the other possibilities. The scientists will carefully judge if these suggest if the lineaments we would otherwise recognize. But the fact remains, there are these subtle limitations, and a certain "artistic" discretion falls into the mix.

I previously cited the reconstruction of a mummy's face; the body is now tentatively ID'd as that of Queen Nefertiti, Great Wife of Pharaoh Akhenaton. There exist what are thought to be life studies of her and her daughters, discovered in the studio of the sculptor Tutmose at Tell El Amarna (Akhetaton), along with the famous bust (now in the Berlin museum). While the bust was somewhat idealized, the studies still greatly resemble it. Yet when a facial reconstruction was first performed on the mummy, more general ethnic features, based upon averages, were relied upon, and there was less resemblance....

Who can you believe? These things aren't perfect, yet.

Judy 
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face


 
Thanks Judy...just seen you reply. You are kind of saying what I am worry about....Eileen

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> Since certain soft tissue features remain speculative in these reconstructions, based upon averages for the ethnicity, etc., of the individual, there may be a slight reliance on the artwork....
>
> Judy 
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:56 AM
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
>
>
>  
>
> One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > >
> > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > >
> > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

If his CGI image is clothed, perhaps that might mean he's come full circle...he entered Leicester naked, but he exits to meet the world clothed.

~Wednesday

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
>
> Carol
>

Forensic reconstructors are used in police procedure. They have to be able to make bones look like the actual person to identify the actual victim or body, because, like Richard, there isn't any soft tissue left to help I.D. the victim.

What the reconstructors are supposed to do is take a three dimensional image of the skull and body, and build the features from the bone structure. They put in the muscle and ligaments, and then drape the skin over it, insert the eyes per the sockets, the lids per the sockets, the nose per the bone...and what they get is supposed to be a true three-dimensional reconstruction of the actual face--not a model of a portrait.

Maybe someone could research forensic body/face construction and answer better than this? But it's my understanding that what you'd see is what Richard actually looked like. The existing historical portraits shouldn't come into it at all.

~Wednesday


--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
>
> One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> >
> > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > >
> > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > >
> > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>

--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
How long does a DNA test take? "Further tests are being carried out to verify the lineage of Michael Ibsen...."
> What are we to think?
> Marie
>



Sounds to me as though they are verifying Michael Ibsen's DNA before they use it to compare to that of the "warrior knight." But what would they compare Ibsen's DNA to? If his female ancestors remains are available, why not just use them to compare to the 15th century ones?

Maybe they are tracing Ibsen's family tree to verify that he is a genuine descendant of Anne of York. But we all know that family trees can be unreliable -- they may contain "bastard slips" in both senses of the word "slips."

Katy

Judy....I don't like the 'facial reconstruction........based upon averages, were relied on, and there was less resemblance' part.....Still....I dont want to be negative....and Im sure that any facial construction will result in an image that anyone who knew or loved Richard would be able to recognise....The fact that they have managed to locate Richard..hopefully...is still the most marvellous thing and something that once we would not have believed possible. Anything else will be icing on the cake...Eileen



--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> But I wouldn't worry overmuch. The tissues in question (details of lips, nostrils, amount of adipose (fat), etc.) won't be so questionable. The orbits of the eyes, the cheeks, the jaw line, brow, and the general structure of the nose will all create exacting proportional configurations that narrow down the other possibilities. The scientists will carefully judge if these suggest if the lineaments we would otherwise recognize. But the fact remains, there are these subtle limitations, and a certain "artistic" discretion falls into the mix.
>
> I previously cited the reconstruction of a mummy's face; the body is now tentatively ID'd as that of Queen Nefertiti, Great Wife of Pharaoh Akhenaton. There exist what are thought to be life studies of her and her daughters, discovered in the studio of the sculptor Tutmose at Tell El Amarna (Akhetaton), along with the famous bust (now in the Berlin museum). While the bust was somewhat idealized, the studies still greatly resemble it. Yet when a facial reconstruction was first performed on the mummy, more general ethnic features, based upon averages, were relied upon, and there was less resemblance....
>
> Who can you believe? These things aren't perfect, yet.
>
> Judy 
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 10:33 AM
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
>
>
>  
> Thanks Judy...just seen you reply. You are kind of saying what I am worry about....Eileen
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Since certain soft tissue features remain speculative in these reconstructions, based upon averages for the ethnicity, etc., of the individual, there may be a slight reliance on the artwork....
> >
> > Judy 
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> > --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > > >
> > > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Wednesday wrote:
<snip>
> What the reconstructors are supposed to do is take a three dimensional image of the skull and body, and build the features from the bone structure. They put in the muscle and ligaments, and then drape the skin over it, insert the eyes per the sockets, the lids per the sockets, the nose per the bone...and what they get is supposed to be a true three-dimensional reconstruction of the actual face--not a model of a portrait.
>
> Maybe someone could research forensic body/face construction and answer better than this? But it's my understanding that what you'd see is what Richard actually looked like. The existing historical portraits shouldn't come into it at all.

Carol responds:

Actually, they're copies of historical portraits. The originals are lost. But I suspect that they'll consult the portraits (ideally, the restored Society of Antiquities portrait and the National Gallery portrait, not the later, distorted versions) for coloring and possibly the shape of the nose. I only hope that they do so *after* they've created the three-dimensional image, skin and all.

Carol

I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this site before
Please take a look at past histories
George

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 16, 2012, at 12:12 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> Forensic reconstructors are used in police procedure. They have to be able to make bones look like the actual person to identify the actual victim or body, because, like Richard, there isn't any soft tissue left to help I.D. the victim.
>
> What the reconstructors are supposed to do is take a three dimensional image of the skull and body, and build the features from the bone structure. They put in the muscle and ligaments, and then drape the skin over it, insert the eyes per the sockets, the lids per the sockets, the nose per the bone...and what they get is supposed to be a true three-dimensional reconstruction of the actual face--not a model of a portrait.
>
> Maybe someone could research forensic body/face construction and answer better than this? But it's my understanding that what you'd see is what Richard actually looked like. The existing historical portraits shouldn't come into it at all.
>
> ~Wednesday
>
> --- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> > --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > > >
> > > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
>
>

Hi, Wednesday -

My awareness of 3D facial reconstructions was sparked by the novel *Gorky
Park* by Martin Cruz Smith, which first featured facial reconstructions of
three murder victims. The movie *Gorky Park* was released in 1983. There is
quite a detailed account of the process, as I recall, at least in the book.
There is also quite a bit of information about the process in those "Ancient
Autopsy" programs that we have talked about here before.



I think they would probably use the portraits for details of Richard's dress
and hair and eye colour. As I recall, the facial reconstruction from a skull
can give a good likeness, but there details that it can't determine, and
besides the aforementioned, one of those is a person's expression in life.
So there has to be a bit of discretion applied to determine the final
appearance. I remember the reconstruction of the face of Jesus from the
Shroud of Turin, which is available on the DVD "The Real Face of Jesus?"
(produced by the History Channel). The artist was conscious of the burden of
the work that he was engaged in, and it was more difficult (I think) than a
reconstruction from a skull, because the image on the Shroud was distorted
because of the Shroud being draped over the person's head. Therefore, the
artist had to correct the distortion before he could finalize the image as
he believed it to be in life.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 1:13 PM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
R3's face





Forensic reconstructors are used in police procedure. They have to be able
to make bones look like the actual person to identify the actual victim or
body, because, like Richard, there isn't any soft tissue left to help I.D.
the victim.

What the reconstructors are supposed to do is take a three dimensional image
of the skull and body, and build the features from the bone structure. They
put in the muscle and ligaments, and then drape the skin over it, insert the
eyes per the sockets, the lids per the sockets, the nose per the bone...and
what they get is supposed to be a true three-dimensional reconstruction of
the actual face--not a model of a portrait.

Maybe someone could research forensic body/face construction and answer
better than this? But it's my understanding that what you'd see is what
Richard actually looked like. The existing historical portraits shouldn't
come into it at all.

~Wednesday




<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMjAxYnU0B
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I remember this documentary from some time ago...You can still watch it UTube...just google History Cold Case Sterling Man...
http://www.stirlingcastle.gov.uk/home/newsevents/bbchistorycoldcase.htm

Eileen


--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Wednesday -
>
> My awareness of 3D facial reconstructions was sparked by the novel *Gorky
> Park* by Martin Cruz Smith, which first featured facial reconstructions of
> three murder victims. The movie *Gorky Park* was released in 1983. There is
> quite a detailed account of the process, as I recall, at least in the book.
> There is also quite a bit of information about the process in those "Ancient
> Autopsy" programs that we have talked about here before.
>
>
>
> I think they would probably use the portraits for details of Richard's dress
> and hair and eye colour. As I recall, the facial reconstruction from a skull
> can give a good likeness, but there details that it can't determine, and
> besides the aforementioned, one of those is a person's expression in life.
> So there has to be a bit of discretion applied to determine the final
> appearance. I remember the reconstruction of the face of Jesus from the
> Shroud of Turin, which is available on the DVD "The Real Face of Jesus?"
> (produced by the History Channel). The artist was conscious of the burden of
> the work that he was engaged in, and it was more difficult (I think) than a
> reconstruction from a skull, because the image on the Shroud was distorted
> because of the Shroud being draped over the person's head. Therefore, the
> artist had to correct the distortion before he could finalize the image as
> he believed it to be in life.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 1:13 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
> R3's face
>
>
>
>
>
> Forensic reconstructors are used in police procedure. They have to be able
> to make bones look like the actual person to identify the actual victim or
> body, because, like Richard, there isn't any soft tissue left to help I.D.
> the victim.
>
> What the reconstructors are supposed to do is take a three dimensional image
> of the skull and body, and build the features from the bone structure. They
> put in the muscle and ligaments, and then drape the skin over it, insert the
> eyes per the sockets, the lids per the sockets, the nose per the bone...and
> what they get is supposed to be a true three-dimensional reconstruction of
> the actual face--not a model of a portrait.
>
> Maybe someone could research forensic body/face construction and answer
> better than this? But it's my understanding that what you'd see is what
> Richard actually looked like. The existing historical portraits shouldn't
> come into it at all.
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMjAxYnU0B
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzA4NTk1OA--> Visit Your Group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOGNxYWtlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzUzMDg1OTU4>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =19242/stime=1353085958/nc1=3848614/nc2=5008817/nc3=4025304>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

As my mum would say, let's not cry until we're hit :-)

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face


 
Judy....I don't like the 'facial reconstruction........based upon averages, were relied on, and there was less resemblance' part.....Still....I dont want to be negative....and Im sure that any facial construction will result in an image that anyone who knew or loved Richard would be able to recognise....The fact that they have managed to locate Richard..hopefully...is still the most marvellous thing and something that once we would not have believed possible. Anything else will be icing on the cake...Eileen

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> But I wouldn't worry overmuch. The tissues in question (details of lips, nostrils, amount of adipose (fat), etc.) won't be so questionable. The orbits of the eyes, the cheeks, the jaw line, brow, and the general structure of the nose will all create exacting proportional configurations that narrow down the other possibilities. The scientists will carefully judge if these suggest if the lineaments we would otherwise recognize. But the fact remains, there are these subtle limitations, and a certain "artistic" discretion falls into the mix.
>
> I previously cited the reconstruction of a mummy's face; the body is now tentatively ID'd as that of Queen Nefertiti, Great Wife of Pharaoh Akhenaton. There exist what are thought to be life studies of her and her daughters, discovered in the studio of the sculptor Tutmose at Tell El Amarna (Akhetaton), along with the famous bust (now in the Berlin museum). While the bust was somewhat idealized, the studies still greatly resemble it. Yet when a facial reconstruction was first performed on the mummy, more general ethnic features, based upon averages, were relied upon, and there was less resemblance....
>
> Who can you believe? These things aren't perfect, yet.
>
> Judy 
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 10:33 AM
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
>
>
>  
> Thanks Judy...just seen you reply. You are kind of saying what I am worry about....Eileen
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > Since certain soft tissue features remain speculative in these reconstructions, based upon averages for the ethnicity, etc., of the individual, there may be a slight reliance on the artwork....
> >
> > Judyà
> > à
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
> >
> >
> > à
> >
> > One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> > --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > >
> > > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > > >
> > > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this site before
> Please take a look at past histories
> George


"Ad nauseum?" I see no reason to declare a subject closed, no matter how often it has been discussed. Someone may have a new angle we haven't considered, or something new may have turned up.

Katy

Very true...For myself I think I feel a bit mean to be nit picking about something like how accurate/inaccurate any facial reconstruction would be. After all it was not so long ago, after the news of the find broke, I was waking up in the morning feeling like I had won the Lottery.......Eileen

--- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
>
> As my mum would say, let's not cry until we're hit :-)
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
>
>
>  
> Judy....I don't like the 'facial reconstruction........based upon averages, were relied on, and there was less resemblance' part.....Still....I dont want to be negative....and Im sure that any facial construction will result in an image that anyone who knew or loved Richard would be able to recognise....The fact that they have managed to locate Richard..hopefully...is still the most marvellous thing and something that once we would not have believed possible. Anything else will be icing on the cake...Eileen
>
> --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> >
> > But I wouldn't worry overmuch. The tissues in question (details of lips, nostrils, amount of adipose (fat), etc.) won't be so questionable. The orbits of the eyes, the cheeks, the jaw line, brow, and the general structure of the nose will all create exacting proportional configurations that narrow down the other possibilities. The scientists will carefully judge if these suggest if the lineaments we would otherwise recognize. But the fact remains, there are these subtle limitations, and a certain "artistic" discretion falls into the mix.
> >
> > I previously cited the reconstruction of a mummy's face; the body is now tentatively ID'd as that of Queen Nefertiti, Great Wife of Pharaoh Akhenaton. There exist what are thought to be life studies of her and her daughters, discovered in the studio of the sculptor Tutmose at Tell El Amarna (Akhetaton), along with the famous bust (now in the Berlin museum). While the bust was somewhat idealized, the studies still greatly resemble it. Yet when a facial reconstruction was first performed on the mummy, more general ethnic features, based upon averages, were relied upon, and there was less resemblance....
> >
> > Who can you believe? These things aren't perfect, yet.
> >
> > Judy 
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 10:33 AM
> > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
> >
> >
> >  
> > Thanks Judy...just seen you reply. You are kind of saying what I am worry about....Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Since certain soft tissue features remain speculative in these reconstructions, based upon averages for the ethnicity, etc., of the individual, there may be a slight reliance on the artwork....
> > >
> > > Judy 
> > >  
> > > Loyaulte me lie
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:56 AM
> > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > One small worry of mine is...and I might be totally barking up the wrong tree...but when these facial reconstructions are made, can the reconstructors be a bit led by any paintings that exist of that person. Of course you cannot blame them if they do but in that case is it an actual reconstruction or just a model of the person in the portrait...if you know what I mean? Eileen
> > > --- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I think someone asked whether they'd try to reconstruct Richard's face? The answer seems to be yes, and not just his face: "Now Leicester University experts who managed the dig have announced plans to produce a three-dimensional image of the body including a full facial reconstruction."
> > > > >
> > > > > His remains have already been scanned, so perhaps the DNA sequencing looks promising already. <snip link>
> > > >
> > > > Carol responds:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks very much for this link. I only hope that the full-body reconstruction--unlike those of Lucy, the Nariokotome boy, and the Neanderthal man--will be fully and appropriately clothed.
> > > >
> > > > Carol
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi,Katy -
Agreed - George has probably been on the list since Christ was a cowboy, as we used to say in the Navy, but I don't recall much recent discussion concerning facial reconstruction since I rejoined in September. And it's more fascinating now, since we know if this procedure. is about to be applied to His Grace, as we all hope the Greyfriars Warrior will soon be identified.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne

-----Original Message-----

From: oregon_katy
Sent: 16 Nov 2012 19:41:43 GMT
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face



--- In , George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this site before
> Please take a look at past histories
> George


"Ad nauseum?" I see no reason to declare a subject closed, no matter how often it has been discussed. Someone may have a new angle we haven't considered, or something new may have turned up.

Katy

Johanne

No I have not been on the list since Christ was a cowboy ( I did sit behind
him in 3rd grade however)

I just don't want the Forum to continuously go over the same ground However
I will always yield to the majority even though it has been dealt with and
in my addled and warped position cannot be added to until we get DNA
results from the remains in Greyfriars ( It has been suggested that it was
the Abbot who, while walking backward carrying an arrow through the choir,
tripped and fell on a chalice, then the font. He received an nasty gash in
his head just prior to hitting the font and falling unconscious on the arrow
he was carrying ( he had taken it away from a choirboy who was fiddling with
it) Sadly he just managed to crawl a little distance before falling into an
open grave causing a cave in!)



George



PS I am also ex-Navy!!



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 2:55 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face





Hi,Katy -
Agreed - George has probably been on the list since Christ was a cowboy, as
we used to say in the Navy, but I don't recall much recent discussion
concerning facial reconstruction since I rejoined in September. And it's
more fascinating now, since we know if this procedure. is about to be
applied to His Grace, as we all hope the Greyfriars Warrior will soon be
identified.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne

-----Original Message-----

From: oregon_katy
Sent: 16 Nov 2012 19:41:43 GMT
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
R3's face

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
<gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this
site before
> Please take a look at past histories
> George

"Ad nauseum?" I see no reason to declare a subject closed, no matter how
often it has been discussed. Someone may have a new angle we haven't
considered, or something new may have turned up.

Katy

Lol...George...:0)

Lol...we have to go over the 'same ground' as we forget what we said last week....Eileen
--- In , "George Butterfield" <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> Johanne
>
> No I have not been on the list since Christ was a cowboy ( I did sit behind
> him in 3rd grade however)
>
> I just don't want the Forum to continuously go over the same ground However
> I will always yield to the majority even though it has been dealt with and
> in my addled and warped position cannot be added to until we get DNA
> results from the remains in Greyfriars ( It has been suggested that it was
> the Abbot who, while walking backward carrying an arrow through the choir,
> tripped and fell on a chalice, then the font. He received an nasty gash in
> his head just prior to hitting the font and falling unconscious on the arrow
> he was carrying ( he had taken it away from a choirboy who was fiddling with
> it) Sadly he just managed to crawl a little distance before falling into an
> open grave causing a cave in!)
>
>
>
> George
>
>
>
> PS I am also ex-Navy!!
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
> Tournier
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 2:55 PM
> To:
> Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
> reconstruct R3's face
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,Katy -
> Agreed - George has probably been on the list since Christ was a cowboy, as
> we used to say in the Navy, but I don't recall much recent discussion
> concerning facial reconstruction since I rejoined in September. And it's
> more fascinating now, since we know if this procedure. is about to be
> applied to His Grace, as we all hope the Greyfriars Warrior will soon be
> identified.
> Loyaulte me lie,
> Johanne
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: oregon_katy
> Sent: 16 Nov 2012 19:41:43 GMT
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
> R3's face
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
> <gbutterf1@> wrote:
> >
> > I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this
> site before
> > Please take a look at past histories
> > George
>
> "Ad nauseum?" I see no reason to declare a subject closed, no matter how
> often it has been discussed. Someone may have a new angle we haven't
> considered, or something new may have turned up.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dear George -

Sounds sort of like my dear late husband Arthur, who used to say he "got
kicked out of 5th. grade for not shaving."



Umm . . . you may have a warped and addled point; however, some of us here
are on tenterhooks with anticipation and find the only way they can even
stand waiting months and months is by dredging up and thoroughly examining
every possible aspect of every possible nook and cranny of Richard's life
and everything before and since. (Speaking for myself alone, mind you.
<disarming smile>)



Besides, as Katy said, we might come up with some new aspect of the matter
or something new may turn up. You never know.



I, for one, would certainly credit your theory with a certain novelty. Just
don't suggest it to the forensic team . . . we don't want them to get any
"funny" ideas. <grin>



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of George
Butterfield
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 4:40 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face





Johanne

No I have not been on the list since Christ was a cowboy ( I did sit behind
him in 3rd grade however)

I just don't want the Forum to continuously go over the same ground However
I will always yield to the majority even though it has been dealt with and
in my addled and warped position cannot be added to until we get DNA
results from the remains in Greyfriars ( It has been suggested that it was
the Abbot who, while walking backward carrying an arrow through the choir,
tripped and fell on a chalice, then the font. He received an nasty gash in
his head just prior to hitting the font and falling unconscious on the arrow
he was carrying ( he had taken it away from a choirboy who was fiddling with
it) Sadly he just managed to crawl a little distance before falling into an
open grave causing a cave in!)

George

PS I am also ex-Navy!!

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 2:55 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face

Hi,Katy -
Agreed - George has probably been on the list since Christ was a cowboy, as
we used to say in the Navy, but I don't recall much recent discussion
concerning facial reconstruction since I rejoined in September. And it's
more fascinating now, since we know if this procedure. is about to be
applied to His Grace, as we all hope the Greyfriars Warrior will soon be
identified.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne

-----Original Message-----

From: oregon_katy
Sent: 16 Nov 2012 19:41:43 GMT
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
R3's face

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
<gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this
site before
> Please take a look at past histories
> George

"Ad nauseum?" I see no reason to declare a subject closed, no matter how
often it has been discussed. Someone may have a new angle we haven't
considered, or something new may have turned up.

Katy

Johanne

I agree with you being on tenterhooks, I would love to be a fly on the wall
in Buckingham Palace when HRH is advised that one of her predecessors has
been found.



J

George



By the way I watched the Abbot fall in the hole!





From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 4:00 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face





Dear George -

Sounds sort of like my dear late husband Arthur, who used to say he "got
kicked out of 5th. grade for not shaving."

Umm . . . you may have a warped and addled point; however, some of us here
are on tenterhooks with anticipation and find the only way they can even
stand waiting months and months is by dredging up and thoroughly examining
every possible aspect of every possible nook and cranny of Richard's life
and everything before and since. (Speaking for myself alone, mind you.
<disarming smile>)

Besides, as Katy said, we might come up with some new aspect of the matter
or something new may turn up. You never know.

I, for one, would certainly credit your theory with a certain novelty. Just
don't suggest it to the forensic team . . . we don't want them to get any
"funny" ideas. <grin>

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>

or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of George
Butterfield
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 4:40 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face

Johanne

No I have not been on the list since Christ was a cowboy ( I did sit behind
him in 3rd grade however)

I just don't want the Forum to continuously go over the same ground However
I will always yield to the majority even though it has been dealt with and
in my addled and warped position cannot be added to until we get DNA
results from the remains in Greyfriars ( It has been suggested that it was
the Abbot who, while walking backward carrying an arrow through the choir,
tripped and fell on a chalice, then the font. He received an nasty gash in
his head just prior to hitting the font and falling unconscious on the arrow
he was carrying ( he had taken it away from a choirboy who was fiddling with
it) Sadly he just managed to crawl a little distance before falling into an
open grave causing a cave in!)

George

PS I am also ex-Navy!!

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 2:55 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face

Hi,Katy -
Agreed - George has probably been on the list since Christ was a cowboy, as
we used to say in the Navy, but I don't recall much recent discussion
concerning facial reconstruction since I rejoined in September. And it's
more fascinating now, since we know if this procedure. is about to be
applied to His Grace, as we all hope the Greyfriars Warrior will soon be
identified.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne

-----Original Message-----

From: oregon_katy
Sent: 16 Nov 2012 19:41:43 GMT
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
R3's face

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
<gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this
site before
> Please take a look at past histories
> George

"Ad nauseum?" I see no reason to declare a subject closed, no matter how
often it has been discussed. Someone may have a new angle we haven't
considered, or something new may have turned up.

Katy

............ and that the resident of Westminster Abbey she thought was a predecessor almost certainly isn't.

----- Original Message -----
From: George Butterfield
To:
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct R3's face



Johanne

I agree with you being on tenterhooks, I would love to be a fly on the wall
in Buckingham Palace when HRH is advised that one of her predecessors has
been found.

J

George

By the way I watched the Abbot fall in the hole!

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 4:00 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face

Dear George -

Sounds sort of like my dear late husband Arthur, who used to say he "got
kicked out of 5th. grade for not shaving."

Umm . . . you may have a warped and addled point; however, some of us here
are on tenterhooks with anticipation and find the only way they can even
stand waiting months and months is by dredging up and thoroughly examining
every possible aspect of every possible nook and cranny of Richard's life
and everything before and since. (Speaking for myself alone, mind you.
<disarming smile>)

Besides, as Katy said, we might come up with some new aspect of the matter
or something new may turn up. You never know.

I, for one, would certainly credit your theory with a certain novelty. Just
don't suggest it to the forensic team . . . we don't want them to get any
"funny" ideas. <grin>

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>

or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of George
Butterfield
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 4:40 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face

Johanne

No I have not been on the list since Christ was a cowboy ( I did sit behind
him in 3rd grade however)

I just don't want the Forum to continuously go over the same ground However
I will always yield to the majority even though it has been dealt with and
in my addled and warped position cannot be added to until we get DNA
results from the remains in Greyfriars ( It has been suggested that it was
the Abbot who, while walking backward carrying an arrow through the choir,
tripped and fell on a chalice, then the font. He received an nasty gash in
his head just prior to hitting the font and falling unconscious on the arrow
he was carrying ( he had taken it away from a choirboy who was fiddling with
it) Sadly he just managed to crawl a little distance before falling into an
open grave causing a cave in!)

George

PS I am also ex-Navy!!

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 2:55 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct R3's face

Hi,Katy -
Agreed - George has probably been on the list since Christ was a cowboy, as
we used to say in the Navy, but I don't recall much recent discussion
concerning facial reconstruction since I rejoined in September. And it's
more fascinating now, since we know if this procedure. is about to be
applied to His Grace, as we all hope the Greyfriars Warrior will soon be
identified.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne

-----Original Message-----

From: oregon_katy
Sent: 16 Nov 2012 19:41:43 GMT
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
R3's face

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , George Butterfield
<gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> I believe that this exact subject has been discussed ad nausium on this
site before
> Please take a look at past histories
> George

"Ad nauseum?" I see no reason to declare a subject closed, no matter how
often it has been discussed. Someone may have a new angle we haven't
considered, or something new may have turned up.

Katy

That's terrific, Eileen! How fascinating - and how lifelike and modern that
knight looks!



It looks like there's a lot of stuff to do on the Stirling Castle website -
like getting your own "coat of arms" and "colouring the jester" (good for
kids, I think).



Lots of info - particularly if you are interested in the Stewarts!



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 2:35 PM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to reconstruct
R3's face





I remember this documentary from some time ago...You can still watch it
UTube...just google History Cold Case Sterling Man...
http://www.stirlingcastle.gov.uk/home/newsevents/bbchistorycoldcase.htm

Eileen

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Wednesday -
>
> My awareness of 3D facial reconstructions was sparked by the novel *Gorky
> Park* by Martin Cruz Smith, which first featured facial reconstructions of
> three murder victims. The movie *Gorky Park* was released in 1983. There
is
> quite a detailed account of the process, as I recall, at least in the
book.
> There is also quite a bit of information about the process in those
"Ancient
> Autopsy" programs that we have talked about here before.
>
>
>
> I think they would probably use the portraits for details of Richard's
dress
> and hair and eye colour. As I recall, the facial reconstruction from a
skull
> can give a good likeness, but there details that it can't determine, and
> besides the aforementioned, one of those is a person's expression in life.
> So there has to be a bit of discretion applied to determine the final
> appearance. I remember the reconstruction of the face of Jesus from the
> Shroud of Turin, which is available on the DVD "The Real Face of Jesus?"
> (produced by the History Channel). The artist was conscious of the burden
of
> the work that he was engaged in, and it was more difficult (I think) than
a
> reconstruction from a skull, because the image on the Shroud was distorted
> because of the Shroud being draped over the person's head. Therefore, the
> artist had to correct the distortion before he could finalize the image as
> he believed it to be in life.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
wednesday_mc
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2012 1:13 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Scientists to
reconstruct
> R3's face
>
>
>
>
>
> Forensic reconstructors are used in police procedure. They have to be able
> to make bones look like the actual person to identify the actual victim or
> body, because, like Richard, there isn't any soft tissue left to help I.D.
> the victim.
>
> What the reconstructors are supposed to do is take a three dimensional
image
> of the skull and body, and build the features from the bone structure.
They
> put in the muscle and ligaments, and then drape the skin over it, insert
the
> eyes per the sockets, the lids per the sockets, the nose per the
bone...and
> what they get is supposed to be a true three-dimensional reconstruction of
> the actual face--not a model of a portrait.
>
> Maybe someone could research forensic body/face construction and answer
> better than this? But it's my understanding that what you'd see is what
> Richard actually looked like. The existing historical portraits shouldn't
> come into it at all.
>
> ~Wednesday
>
>
>
>
>
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