Richard's Books
Richard's Books
2012-11-25 12:36:28
Hi, All -
I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.* For
one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She notes:
1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own (which
was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
handwriting, which is
". . . rather beautiful, and is generally neat and easy to read, in contrast
to the almost illegible jottings of many of his peers. Such handwriting
reveals a high level of learning and implies that Richard was someone who
felt comfortable with scholarship, books and writing."
2) Richard had acquired a good grounding in grammar, "such as would be
required of a churchman."
3) ". . . his ability to read Latin extended beyond that which would be
necessary in order to merely follow litany; it exceeds the knowledge that
would have been considered sufficient for a layman. Moreover, a recent study
of what remains of Richard's library has revealed that many of the books in
his collection were in Latin even where editions in English were easily
available." (kindle edition -locations 1418 -1428)
There's a footnote to the reference to "Richard's library," but it just
says, "Anne Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, Richard III's Books," with no
further details. Does anyone know what that refers to? Is it an article in
the Ricardian? Is it available online? I would love to read it! I would love
to know how many of Richard's books survive and more about their titles,
authors, and subject matter! Also, it's interesting that Richard obviously
read Latin, yet he also had a copy of Wycliffe's Bible in his collection.
Richard may have been intended for the Church; unfortunately (perhaps) for
him, as we say "RL intervened," when his father and older brother were
suddenly killed and he had to flee as a refugee. Perhaps the loss of Richard
of York and Edmund Earl of Rutland suddenly made Richard's existence as a
secular member of his family more valuable than he would have been in the
Church.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.* For
one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She notes:
1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own (which
was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
handwriting, which is
". . . rather beautiful, and is generally neat and easy to read, in contrast
to the almost illegible jottings of many of his peers. Such handwriting
reveals a high level of learning and implies that Richard was someone who
felt comfortable with scholarship, books and writing."
2) Richard had acquired a good grounding in grammar, "such as would be
required of a churchman."
3) ". . . his ability to read Latin extended beyond that which would be
necessary in order to merely follow litany; it exceeds the knowledge that
would have been considered sufficient for a layman. Moreover, a recent study
of what remains of Richard's library has revealed that many of the books in
his collection were in Latin even where editions in English were easily
available." (kindle edition -locations 1418 -1428)
There's a footnote to the reference to "Richard's library," but it just
says, "Anne Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, Richard III's Books," with no
further details. Does anyone know what that refers to? Is it an article in
the Ricardian? Is it available online? I would love to read it! I would love
to know how many of Richard's books survive and more about their titles,
authors, and subject matter! Also, it's interesting that Richard obviously
read Latin, yet he also had a copy of Wycliffe's Bible in his collection.
Richard may have been intended for the Church; unfortunately (perhaps) for
him, as we say "RL intervened," when his father and older brother were
suddenly killed and he had to flee as a refugee. Perhaps the loss of Richard
of York and Edmund Earl of Rutland suddenly made Richard's existence as a
secular member of his family more valuable than he would have been in the
Church.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Richard's Books
2012-11-25 13:05:39
As a high ranking member of the nobility, Richard-as-churchman would have
played a very active role in politics, but it would have seemed a long time
into the future in 1461. Unless Edward VI pulled a swifty similar to the one
that got Richard's cousin, George Nevill, a bishopric before he was legally
of age to hold one, Richard would have been 27 before he could properly take
up that role. As a trained soldier, he could be (and was) active some 10
years younger. Edward may have felt he needed all the brothers he could get!
I have Wilkinson's book but haven't much more than dipped into it yet.
Whether Richard was originally destined for the church, it makes a good deal
of sense that those plans were changed.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:36:26 -0400
To: <>
Subject: Richard's Books
Hi, All -
I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.* For
one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She notes:
1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own (which
was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
handwriting, which is
". . . rather beautiful, and is generally neat and easy to read, in contrast
to the almost illegible jottings of many of his peers. Such handwriting
reveals a high level of learning and implies that Richard was someone who
felt comfortable with scholarship, books and writing."
2) Richard had acquired a good grounding in grammar, "such as would be
required of a churchman."
3) ". . . his ability to read Latin extended beyond that which would be
necessary in order to merely follow litany; it exceeds the knowledge that
would have been considered sufficient for a layman. Moreover, a recent study
of what remains of Richard's library has revealed that many of the books in
his collection were in Latin even where editions in English were easily
available." (kindle edition -locations 1418 -1428)
There's a footnote to the reference to "Richard's library," but it just
says, "Anne Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, Richard III's Books," with no
further details. Does anyone know what that refers to? Is it an article in
the Ricardian? Is it available online? I would love to read it! I would love
to know how many of Richard's books survive and more about their titles,
authors, and subject matter! Also, it's interesting that Richard obviously
read Latin, yet he also had a copy of Wycliffe's Bible in his collection.
Richard may have been intended for the Church; unfortunately (perhaps) for
him, as we say "RL intervened," when his father and older brother were
suddenly killed and he had to flee as a refugee. Perhaps the loss of Richard
of York and Edmund Earl of Rutland suddenly made Richard's existence as a
secular member of his family more valuable than he would have been in the
Church.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
played a very active role in politics, but it would have seemed a long time
into the future in 1461. Unless Edward VI pulled a swifty similar to the one
that got Richard's cousin, George Nevill, a bishopric before he was legally
of age to hold one, Richard would have been 27 before he could properly take
up that role. As a trained soldier, he could be (and was) active some 10
years younger. Edward may have felt he needed all the brothers he could get!
I have Wilkinson's book but haven't much more than dipped into it yet.
Whether Richard was originally destined for the church, it makes a good deal
of sense that those plans were changed.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 08:36:26 -0400
To: <>
Subject: Richard's Books
Hi, All -
I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.* For
one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She notes:
1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own (which
was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
handwriting, which is
". . . rather beautiful, and is generally neat and easy to read, in contrast
to the almost illegible jottings of many of his peers. Such handwriting
reveals a high level of learning and implies that Richard was someone who
felt comfortable with scholarship, books and writing."
2) Richard had acquired a good grounding in grammar, "such as would be
required of a churchman."
3) ". . . his ability to read Latin extended beyond that which would be
necessary in order to merely follow litany; it exceeds the knowledge that
would have been considered sufficient for a layman. Moreover, a recent study
of what remains of Richard's library has revealed that many of the books in
his collection were in Latin even where editions in English were easily
available." (kindle edition -locations 1418 -1428)
There's a footnote to the reference to "Richard's library," but it just
says, "Anne Sutton and Livia Visser-Fuchs, Richard III's Books," with no
further details. Does anyone know what that refers to? Is it an article in
the Ricardian? Is it available online? I would love to read it! I would love
to know how many of Richard's books survive and more about their titles,
authors, and subject matter! Also, it's interesting that Richard obviously
read Latin, yet he also had a copy of Wycliffe's Bible in his collection.
Richard may have been intended for the Church; unfortunately (perhaps) for
him, as we say "RL intervened," when his father and older brother were
suddenly killed and he had to flee as a refugee. Perhaps the loss of Richard
of York and Edmund Earl of Rutland suddenly made Richard's existence as a
secular member of his family more valuable than he would have been in the
Church.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Richard's Books
2012-11-25 17:28:39
I thought most youngest sons of the nobility were destined for the church, as everything went to the oldest son? Would Richard have been slated for this tradition until destiny intervened?
So if his world hadn't been shattered/rearranged by the deaths of his father and Edmund, he would have soon been sent off to some monastery rather than to Warwick to train as a knight? Too bad he missed the Knights Templar.
I also just remembered Henry VIII was originally destined for the church as well until Arthur died. Henry as an archbishop or cardinal...the mind boggles.
~Wednesday
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, All -
>
>
>
> I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.* For
> one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
> may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
> this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
> Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She notes:
> 1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
> either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own (which
> was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
> that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
> handwriting, which is
<snipped for brevity>
So if his world hadn't been shattered/rearranged by the deaths of his father and Edmund, he would have soon been sent off to some monastery rather than to Warwick to train as a knight? Too bad he missed the Knights Templar.
I also just remembered Henry VIII was originally destined for the church as well until Arthur died. Henry as an archbishop or cardinal...the mind boggles.
~Wednesday
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, All -
>
>
>
> I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.* For
> one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
> may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
> this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
> Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She notes:
> 1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
> either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own (which
> was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
> that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
> handwriting, which is
<snipped for brevity>
Re: Richard's Books
2012-11-25 17:47:46
Hi, Wednesday -
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:29 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard's Books
I thought most youngest sons of the nobility were destined for the church,
as everything went to the oldest son? Would Richard have been slated for
this tradition until destiny intervened?
So if his world hadn't been shattered/rearranged by the deaths of his father
and Edmund, he would have soon been sent off to some monastery rather than
to Warwick to train as a knight? Too bad he missed the Knights Templar.
I also just remembered Henry VIII was originally destined for the church as
well until Arthur died. Henry as an archbishop or cardinal...the mind
boggles.
~Wednesday
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, All -
>
>
>
> I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.*
For
> one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
> may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
> this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
> Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She
notes:
> 1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
> either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own
(which
> was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
> that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
> handwriting, which is
<snipped for brevity>
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:29 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard's Books
I thought most youngest sons of the nobility were destined for the church,
as everything went to the oldest son? Would Richard have been slated for
this tradition until destiny intervened?
So if his world hadn't been shattered/rearranged by the deaths of his father
and Edmund, he would have soon been sent off to some monastery rather than
to Warwick to train as a knight? Too bad he missed the Knights Templar.
I also just remembered Henry VIII was originally destined for the church as
well until Arthur died. Henry as an archbishop or cardinal...the mind
boggles.
~Wednesday
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, All -
>
>
>
> I am enjoying Josephine Wilkinson's *Richard III: The Young King to Be.*
For
> one thing, recall that not too long ago it was suggested here that Richard
> may have been originally intended for the Church. Ms. Wilkinson discusses
> this at some length. She notes that there are several indicators that
> Richard may have been intended for the Church from an early age. She
notes:
> 1) that for a younger son in a noble family, the only likely routes were
> either a good marriage into a family equal to or better than his own
(which
> was in short supply at the time) or joining the Church. The subtle hints
> that suggest that Richard had been intended for the Church are: 1) his
> handwriting, which is
<snipped for brevity>
Re: Richard's Books
2012-11-25 18:00:47
Johanne
York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
To: <>
Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
Hi, Wednesday -
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~
York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
To: <>
Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
Hi, Wednesday -
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~
Re: Richard's Books
2012-11-25 18:26:29
Its rather different with royalty. Even younger sons could expect to get the pick of unmarried heiresses, and even if there were none the crown was always collecting estates from forfeitures and escheats which could be distributed to junior princes.
The obvious examples are the four sons of Henry IV, and the large family of Edward III. They were all provided for from royal estates and rich heiresses, and none were groomed for the church. I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne.
________________________________
From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2012, 18:00
Subject: Re: Re: Richard's Books
Johanne
York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
To: <>
Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
Hi, Wednesday -
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~
The obvious examples are the four sons of Henry IV, and the large family of Edward III. They were all provided for from royal estates and rich heiresses, and none were groomed for the church. I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne.
________________________________
From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2012, 18:00
Subject: Re: Re: Richard's Books
Johanne
York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
To: <>
Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
Hi, Wednesday -
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~
Re: Richard's Books
2012-11-25 18:44:32
David wrote:
I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne.
And I reply:
I think you're right; so much for my being gullible enough to believe what I read. A Snopes guide to history might be in order, and not just for Richard. A brief search says that the story of Henry's being destined by his parents for the church first appeared a full century after Henry's death (28th January 1547), in the account of one Lord Herbert of Cherbury.
Mea culpa and thank you for the correction. I forgot to check my sources.
~Amateur!Wednesday
--- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> Its rather different with royalty. Even younger sons could expect to get the pick of unmarried heiresses, and even if there were none the crown was always collecting estates from forfeitures and escheats which could be distributed to junior princes.
>
> The obvious examples are the four sons of Henry IV, and the large family of Edward III. They were all provided for from royal estates and rich heiresses, and none were groomed for the church. I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2012, 18:00
> Subject: Re: Re: Richard's Books
>
>
> Â
> Johanne
>
> York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
> consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
> put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
> He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
> Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
> of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
>
> Karen
>
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> Reply-To: <>
> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
> To: <>
> Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
>
> Hi, Wednesday -
>
> Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
> presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
> Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
> "primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
> all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
> sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
> who was always looking to feather his nest!
>
> The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
> George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
> At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
>
> Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
> Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
> Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
> <smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne.
And I reply:
I think you're right; so much for my being gullible enough to believe what I read. A Snopes guide to history might be in order, and not just for Richard. A brief search says that the story of Henry's being destined by his parents for the church first appeared a full century after Henry's death (28th January 1547), in the account of one Lord Herbert of Cherbury.
Mea culpa and thank you for the correction. I forgot to check my sources.
~Amateur!Wednesday
--- In , david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> Its rather different with royalty. Even younger sons could expect to get the pick of unmarried heiresses, and even if there were none the crown was always collecting estates from forfeitures and escheats which could be distributed to junior princes.
>
> The obvious examples are the four sons of Henry IV, and the large family of Edward III. They were all provided for from royal estates and rich heiresses, and none were groomed for the church. I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2012, 18:00
> Subject: Re: Re: Richard's Books
>
>
> Â
> Johanne
>
> York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
> consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
> put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
> He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
> Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
> of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
>
> Karen
>
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> Reply-To: <>
> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
> To: <>
> Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
>
> Hi, Wednesday -
>
> Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
> presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
> Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
> "primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
> all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
> sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
> who was always looking to feather his nest!
>
> The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
> George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
> At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
>
> Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
> Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
> Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
> <smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
Re: Richard's Books
2012-11-26 14:02:13
David Rayner wrote:
//snip//
"I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was
invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne."
Being created Duke of York wouldn't preclude a career in the church by
itself but, yes, unless Henry showed some intense desire for a religious
life and Arthur and Catherine had a nursery well-stocked with potential
heirs, Henry's first "job" would be "heir-in-waiting".
Although I do believe there was a King of Portugal who was also a Cardinal
which, if true, wouldn't have prevented Henry from still becoming king and
then passing the crown onto the children of his sister/s.
Doug
________________________________
From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2012, 18:00
Subject: Re: Re: Richard's Books
Johanne
York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
To: <>
Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
Hi, Wednesday -
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
//snip//
"I very much doubt Henry VIII was ever intended for a clergyman; he was
invested as Duke of York before he became heir to the throne."
Being created Duke of York wouldn't preclude a career in the church by
itself but, yes, unless Henry showed some intense desire for a religious
life and Arthur and Catherine had a nursery well-stocked with potential
heirs, Henry's first "job" would be "heir-in-waiting".
Although I do believe there was a King of Portugal who was also a Cardinal
which, if true, wouldn't have prevented Henry from still becoming king and
then passing the crown onto the children of his sister/s.
Doug
________________________________
From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 25 November 2012, 18:00
Subject: Re: Re: Richard's Books
Johanne
York was planning to pass his French properties (and I don't know what they
consisted of exactly) to Edmund. The loss of England's holdings in France
put paid to this. It was one of the reasons York was so very anti Somerset.
He blamed at least two dukes of Somerset for the English losses in France.
Edward was to inherit the bulk of the English estates. Johnson's biography
of York is pretty good, if you haven't come across it already.
Karen
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:47:44 -0400
To: <>
Subject: RE: Re: Richard's Books
Hi, Wednesday -
Wilkinson speaks of Edward as "heir apparent" and Edmund as "heir
presumptive," reminds me of "the heir and the spare," as I have heard
Princes Will and Harry referred to. However, I know the English followed
"primogeniture," which suggests that Edward would have gotten most if not
all of his dad's estate. Richard, however, was fourth of the boys, and I am
sure he was not likely to inherit. And in between there was good ol' George,
who was always looking to feather his nest!
The more I read about George and Richard, the more I realize it was true -
George was a greedy sumbitch and Richard was relatively frugal and thrifty.
At least that seems to be borne out by the record.
Interesting to read that Henry VIII was intended for the Church! Celibate
Henry??!! I think not! <snort> (Maybe he would have initiated the
Reformation on that ground alone, had he been Archbishop and not King.
<smile>) Could make an interesting "alternate history," couldn't it??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
Richard III on Amazon
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