Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward
Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward
2012-11-26 11:42:10
Dear All -
Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age.
BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing. The King followed
his brother into the centre of the line, opposite Prince Edward, the son of
Margaret, and Lord Wenlock, the friend of Warwick. Hastings, with the
rearguard filled up the position to the right until his flank touched the
Swillbrook.
"Richard at once led an assault. But the 'foul lanes' and many hedges made
it impossible for him to get at the enemy. There followed a fierce exchange
of arrows, with some cannon fire. Then Somerset, perceiving that his foes
were checked, decided upon a bold stroke. Concealed by the hedges and
thickets, he led his army westward to the slope of the wooded knoll and
charged down upon the Yorkist left flank. Coolly Richard rallied his men.
Though they gave some ground they did not fall into panic. Once he and his
captains had reformed their line to face Somerset, they pressed the attack
so vigorously that the Lancastrians began to fall back. At this moment a
small band of spears, whom King Edward had stationed on the knoll for just
such an emergency, descended upon Somerset's rear shouting as if they were
an army. Confused by this diversion and shaken by the fierce assault of the
Duke of Gloucester, Somerset's men wavered, then broke in headlong flight
towards the Avon. The pursuit which followed has given the name of 'Bloody
Meadow' to this ground.
"When Edward perceived that his brother had routed the Lancastrian right
wing, he himself attacked the centre, while Richard swung round upon its now
unprotected right flank. As Prince Edward was experiencing his first bitter
taste of battle, the Duke of Somerset rode up to Lord Wenlock in a fury,
cried that Wenlock had deliberately betrayed him by not supporting his flank
attack on Richard's wing, and with a single blow of his battle-axe cleft
Wenlock's skull. Beholding their leaders butchering each other as King
Edward and the Duke of Gloucester splintered their line, the Lancastrian
centre crumbled into flight. Many were drowned trying to cross the Avon;
many fell beneath the swords of the closely pursuing Yorkists; some hid
themselves in the abbey or the town. Swept away by the rout and spurring
toward Tewkesbury in terror, Prince Edward was overtaken by a detachment
commanded by the Duke of Clarence. Though the youth cried for succor to the
man who had shortly before been his ally, he was immediately slain. Clarence
was no doubt eager to assert his new-found loyalty." (pgs. 102-103)
Here are Kendall's notes about the passage:
1 . . . quotations are from the Arrivall (pp. 27-28). I have reconstructed
the battle from its wonderfully vivid, though patchy, account, the only
contemporary narrative, and from my own study of the field. The best modern
account is that of Col. A.H. Burne, Battlefields of England, pp. 117-136,
which I have found most helpful.
2 "No less than seven contemporary sources offer unanimous testimony that
Prince Edward 'was slain on the field,' i.e. in the pursuit.
1) The Arrivall, admittedly Yorkist in viewpoint, says simply that
'Edward, called Prince, was taken, fleeing to the townwards, and slain, in
the field' (p. 30)
2) The Croyland chronicler, although a councilor of King Edward's, was a
learned churchman and he wrote his account after the death of Richard, when
he was free to say what he pleased (for the identity of this chronicler, see
Appendix II, p. 432). Although his statement is not couched in the clearest
terms, he indicates that the Prince, as the Arrivall declared, was slain in
the field. Gairdner supports this interpretation (Hist. Croy. Chron., p.
555).
3) Warkworth, a contemporary chronicler who cannot be accused of Yorkist
bias, says that the Prince was overtaken in the pursuit and slain even as
'he cried for succor to his brother-in-law, the Duke of Clarence' (p. 18).
4) Clarence himself, who would not be likely to feel any scruples in
reporting to a friend exactly how the Prince died, wrote, two days after the
field, that 'Edward, late called Prince,' and 'other estates, knights,
squires, and gentlemen were slain in plain battle' (HMC, Rutland, I, p. 4).
5) Commynes says that Prince Edward was 'killed on the field.' (I, p.
220).
6) A paper written, apparently, immediately after the battle lists as 'Ded
in the Field' a number of lords headed by 'Edward that was called Prynce'
(P.L., III, pp. 8-9).
7) The Tewkesbury Chronicle - of which Professor Myers has kindly reminded
me - 'in an account of the battle probably written soon afterwards, and in a
spirit rather hostile to Edward IV, merely states that Prince Edward was
slain in the field' (Myers) See C.L. Kingsford, English Historical
Literature in the Fifteenth Century, pp. 376-78.
"I have followed Warkworth in attributing the Prince's death to Clarence,
because Warkworth's statement accords well with the character of Clarence
and the nature of the battle. Since Richard and the King were leading the
assaults against the centre of the Lancastrian line, it seems likely that
Clarence, perhaps commanding the reserve, would be in a better position to
mount as horse and lead the pursuit than his brothers who were in the thick
of combat."
Looking at all the contemporary testimony, including Clarence's own
statement, which did not claim responsibility for killing the Prince of
Wales, I cannot see why PMK, whom I respect and appreciate, would have laid
responsibility at Clarence's feet - even if it's the kind of thing he might
do.
Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age.
BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing. The King followed
his brother into the centre of the line, opposite Prince Edward, the son of
Margaret, and Lord Wenlock, the friend of Warwick. Hastings, with the
rearguard filled up the position to the right until his flank touched the
Swillbrook.
"Richard at once led an assault. But the 'foul lanes' and many hedges made
it impossible for him to get at the enemy. There followed a fierce exchange
of arrows, with some cannon fire. Then Somerset, perceiving that his foes
were checked, decided upon a bold stroke. Concealed by the hedges and
thickets, he led his army westward to the slope of the wooded knoll and
charged down upon the Yorkist left flank. Coolly Richard rallied his men.
Though they gave some ground they did not fall into panic. Once he and his
captains had reformed their line to face Somerset, they pressed the attack
so vigorously that the Lancastrians began to fall back. At this moment a
small band of spears, whom King Edward had stationed on the knoll for just
such an emergency, descended upon Somerset's rear shouting as if they were
an army. Confused by this diversion and shaken by the fierce assault of the
Duke of Gloucester, Somerset's men wavered, then broke in headlong flight
towards the Avon. The pursuit which followed has given the name of 'Bloody
Meadow' to this ground.
"When Edward perceived that his brother had routed the Lancastrian right
wing, he himself attacked the centre, while Richard swung round upon its now
unprotected right flank. As Prince Edward was experiencing his first bitter
taste of battle, the Duke of Somerset rode up to Lord Wenlock in a fury,
cried that Wenlock had deliberately betrayed him by not supporting his flank
attack on Richard's wing, and with a single blow of his battle-axe cleft
Wenlock's skull. Beholding their leaders butchering each other as King
Edward and the Duke of Gloucester splintered their line, the Lancastrian
centre crumbled into flight. Many were drowned trying to cross the Avon;
many fell beneath the swords of the closely pursuing Yorkists; some hid
themselves in the abbey or the town. Swept away by the rout and spurring
toward Tewkesbury in terror, Prince Edward was overtaken by a detachment
commanded by the Duke of Clarence. Though the youth cried for succor to the
man who had shortly before been his ally, he was immediately slain. Clarence
was no doubt eager to assert his new-found loyalty." (pgs. 102-103)
Here are Kendall's notes about the passage:
1 . . . quotations are from the Arrivall (pp. 27-28). I have reconstructed
the battle from its wonderfully vivid, though patchy, account, the only
contemporary narrative, and from my own study of the field. The best modern
account is that of Col. A.H. Burne, Battlefields of England, pp. 117-136,
which I have found most helpful.
2 "No less than seven contemporary sources offer unanimous testimony that
Prince Edward 'was slain on the field,' i.e. in the pursuit.
1) The Arrivall, admittedly Yorkist in viewpoint, says simply that
'Edward, called Prince, was taken, fleeing to the townwards, and slain, in
the field' (p. 30)
2) The Croyland chronicler, although a councilor of King Edward's, was a
learned churchman and he wrote his account after the death of Richard, when
he was free to say what he pleased (for the identity of this chronicler, see
Appendix II, p. 432). Although his statement is not couched in the clearest
terms, he indicates that the Prince, as the Arrivall declared, was slain in
the field. Gairdner supports this interpretation (Hist. Croy. Chron., p.
555).
3) Warkworth, a contemporary chronicler who cannot be accused of Yorkist
bias, says that the Prince was overtaken in the pursuit and slain even as
'he cried for succor to his brother-in-law, the Duke of Clarence' (p. 18).
4) Clarence himself, who would not be likely to feel any scruples in
reporting to a friend exactly how the Prince died, wrote, two days after the
field, that 'Edward, late called Prince,' and 'other estates, knights,
squires, and gentlemen were slain in plain battle' (HMC, Rutland, I, p. 4).
5) Commynes says that Prince Edward was 'killed on the field.' (I, p.
220).
6) A paper written, apparently, immediately after the battle lists as 'Ded
in the Field' a number of lords headed by 'Edward that was called Prynce'
(P.L., III, pp. 8-9).
7) The Tewkesbury Chronicle - of which Professor Myers has kindly reminded
me - 'in an account of the battle probably written soon afterwards, and in a
spirit rather hostile to Edward IV, merely states that Prince Edward was
slain in the field' (Myers) See C.L. Kingsford, English Historical
Literature in the Fifteenth Century, pp. 376-78.
"I have followed Warkworth in attributing the Prince's death to Clarence,
because Warkworth's statement accords well with the character of Clarence
and the nature of the battle. Since Richard and the King were leading the
assaults against the centre of the Lancastrian line, it seems likely that
Clarence, perhaps commanding the reserve, would be in a better position to
mount as horse and lead the pursuit than his brothers who were in the thick
of combat."
Looking at all the contemporary testimony, including Clarence's own
statement, which did not claim responsibility for killing the Prince of
Wales, I cannot see why PMK, whom I respect and appreciate, would have laid
responsibility at Clarence's feet - even if it's the kind of thing he might
do.
Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 13:37:29
> Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Quoted from Edward IV's to-do list?
Jonathan
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 11:42
Subject: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Dear All -
Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age.
BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing. The King followed
his brother into the centre of the line, opposite Prince Edward, the son of
Margaret, and Lord Wenlock, the friend of Warwick. Hastings, with the
rearguard filled up the position to the right until his flank touched the
Swillbrook.
"Richard at once led an assault. But the 'foul lanes' and many hedges made
it impossible for him to get at the enemy. There followed a fierce exchange
of arrows, with some cannon fire. Then Somerset, perceiving that his foes
were checked, decided upon a bold stroke. Concealed by the hedges and
thickets, he led his army westward to the slope of the wooded knoll and
charged down upon the Yorkist left flank. Coolly Richard rallied his men.
Though they gave some ground they did not fall into panic. Once he and his
captains had reformed their line to face Somerset, they pressed the attack
so vigorously that the Lancastrians began to fall back. At this moment a
small band of spears, whom King Edward had stationed on the knoll for just
such an emergency, descended upon Somerset's rear shouting as if they were
an army. Confused by this diversion and shaken by the fierce assault of the
Duke of Gloucester, Somerset's men wavered, then broke in headlong flight
towards the Avon. The pursuit which followed has given the name of 'Bloody
Meadow' to this ground.
"When Edward perceived that his brother had routed the Lancastrian right
wing, he himself attacked the centre, while Richard swung round upon its now
unprotected right flank. As Prince Edward was experiencing his first bitter
taste of battle, the Duke of Somerset rode up to Lord Wenlock in a fury,
cried that Wenlock had deliberately betrayed him by not supporting his flank
attack on Richard's wing, and with a single blow of his battle-axe cleft
Wenlock's skull. Beholding their leaders butchering each other as King
Edward and the Duke of Gloucester splintered their line, the Lancastrian
centre crumbled into flight. Many were drowned trying to cross the Avon;
many fell beneath the swords of the closely pursuing Yorkists; some hid
themselves in the abbey or the town. Swept away by the rout and spurring
toward Tewkesbury in terror, Prince Edward was overtaken by a detachment
commanded by the Duke of Clarence. Though the youth cried for succor to the
man who had shortly before been his ally, he was immediately slain. Clarence
was no doubt eager to assert his new-found loyalty." (pgs. 102-103)
Here are Kendall's notes about the passage:
1 . . . quotations are from the Arrivall (pp. 27-28). I have reconstructed
the battle from its wonderfully vivid, though patchy, account, the only
contemporary narrative, and from my own study of the field. The best modern
account is that of Col. A.H. Burne, Battlefields of England, pp. 117-136,
which I have found most helpful.
2 "No less than seven contemporary sources offer unanimous testimony that
Prince Edward 'was slain on the field,' i.e. in the pursuit.
1) The Arrivall, admittedly Yorkist in viewpoint, says simply that
'Edward, called Prince, was taken, fleeing to the townwards, and slain, in
the field' (p. 30)
2) The Croyland chronicler, although a councilor of King Edward's, was a
learned churchman and he wrote his account after the death of Richard, when
he was free to say what he pleased (for the identity of this chronicler, see
Appendix II, p. 432). Although his statement is not couched in the clearest
terms, he indicates that the Prince, as the Arrivall declared, was slain in
the field. Gairdner supports this interpretation (Hist. Croy. Chron., p.
555).
3) Warkworth, a contemporary chronicler who cannot be accused of Yorkist
bias, says that the Prince was overtaken in the pursuit and slain even as
'he cried for succor to his brother-in-law, the Duke of Clarence' (p. 18).
4) Clarence himself, who would not be likely to feel any scruples in
reporting to a friend exactly how the Prince died, wrote, two days after the
field, that 'Edward, late called Prince,' and 'other estates, knights,
squires, and gentlemen were slain in plain battle' (HMC, Rutland, I, p. 4).
5) Commynes says that Prince Edward was 'killed on the field.' (I, p.
220).
6) A paper written, apparently, immediately after the battle lists as 'Ded
in the Field' a number of lords headed by 'Edward that was called Prynce'
(P.L., III, pp. 8-9).
7) The Tewkesbury Chronicle - of which Professor Myers has kindly reminded
me - 'in an account of the battle probably written soon afterwards, and in a
spirit rather hostile to Edward IV, merely states that Prince Edward was
slain in the field' (Myers) See C.L. Kingsford, English Historical
Literature in the Fifteenth Century, pp. 376-78.
"I have followed Warkworth in attributing the Prince's death to Clarence,
because Warkworth's statement accords well with the character of Clarence
and the nature of the battle. Since Richard and the King were leading the
assaults against the centre of the Lancastrian line, it seems likely that
Clarence, perhaps commanding the reserve, would be in a better position to
mount as horse and lead the pursuit than his brothers who were in the thick
of combat."
Looking at all the contemporary testimony, including Clarence's own
statement, which did not claim responsibility for killing the Prince of
Wales, I cannot see why PMK, whom I respect and appreciate, would have laid
responsibility at Clarence's feet - even if it's the kind of thing he might
do.
Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quoted from Edward IV's to-do list?
Jonathan
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 11:42
Subject: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Dear All -
Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age.
BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing. The King followed
his brother into the centre of the line, opposite Prince Edward, the son of
Margaret, and Lord Wenlock, the friend of Warwick. Hastings, with the
rearguard filled up the position to the right until his flank touched the
Swillbrook.
"Richard at once led an assault. But the 'foul lanes' and many hedges made
it impossible for him to get at the enemy. There followed a fierce exchange
of arrows, with some cannon fire. Then Somerset, perceiving that his foes
were checked, decided upon a bold stroke. Concealed by the hedges and
thickets, he led his army westward to the slope of the wooded knoll and
charged down upon the Yorkist left flank. Coolly Richard rallied his men.
Though they gave some ground they did not fall into panic. Once he and his
captains had reformed their line to face Somerset, they pressed the attack
so vigorously that the Lancastrians began to fall back. At this moment a
small band of spears, whom King Edward had stationed on the knoll for just
such an emergency, descended upon Somerset's rear shouting as if they were
an army. Confused by this diversion and shaken by the fierce assault of the
Duke of Gloucester, Somerset's men wavered, then broke in headlong flight
towards the Avon. The pursuit which followed has given the name of 'Bloody
Meadow' to this ground.
"When Edward perceived that his brother had routed the Lancastrian right
wing, he himself attacked the centre, while Richard swung round upon its now
unprotected right flank. As Prince Edward was experiencing his first bitter
taste of battle, the Duke of Somerset rode up to Lord Wenlock in a fury,
cried that Wenlock had deliberately betrayed him by not supporting his flank
attack on Richard's wing, and with a single blow of his battle-axe cleft
Wenlock's skull. Beholding their leaders butchering each other as King
Edward and the Duke of Gloucester splintered their line, the Lancastrian
centre crumbled into flight. Many were drowned trying to cross the Avon;
many fell beneath the swords of the closely pursuing Yorkists; some hid
themselves in the abbey or the town. Swept away by the rout and spurring
toward Tewkesbury in terror, Prince Edward was overtaken by a detachment
commanded by the Duke of Clarence. Though the youth cried for succor to the
man who had shortly before been his ally, he was immediately slain. Clarence
was no doubt eager to assert his new-found loyalty." (pgs. 102-103)
Here are Kendall's notes about the passage:
1 . . . quotations are from the Arrivall (pp. 27-28). I have reconstructed
the battle from its wonderfully vivid, though patchy, account, the only
contemporary narrative, and from my own study of the field. The best modern
account is that of Col. A.H. Burne, Battlefields of England, pp. 117-136,
which I have found most helpful.
2 "No less than seven contemporary sources offer unanimous testimony that
Prince Edward 'was slain on the field,' i.e. in the pursuit.
1) The Arrivall, admittedly Yorkist in viewpoint, says simply that
'Edward, called Prince, was taken, fleeing to the townwards, and slain, in
the field' (p. 30)
2) The Croyland chronicler, although a councilor of King Edward's, was a
learned churchman and he wrote his account after the death of Richard, when
he was free to say what he pleased (for the identity of this chronicler, see
Appendix II, p. 432). Although his statement is not couched in the clearest
terms, he indicates that the Prince, as the Arrivall declared, was slain in
the field. Gairdner supports this interpretation (Hist. Croy. Chron., p.
555).
3) Warkworth, a contemporary chronicler who cannot be accused of Yorkist
bias, says that the Prince was overtaken in the pursuit and slain even as
'he cried for succor to his brother-in-law, the Duke of Clarence' (p. 18).
4) Clarence himself, who would not be likely to feel any scruples in
reporting to a friend exactly how the Prince died, wrote, two days after the
field, that 'Edward, late called Prince,' and 'other estates, knights,
squires, and gentlemen were slain in plain battle' (HMC, Rutland, I, p. 4).
5) Commynes says that Prince Edward was 'killed on the field.' (I, p.
220).
6) A paper written, apparently, immediately after the battle lists as 'Ded
in the Field' a number of lords headed by 'Edward that was called Prynce'
(P.L., III, pp. 8-9).
7) The Tewkesbury Chronicle - of which Professor Myers has kindly reminded
me - 'in an account of the battle probably written soon afterwards, and in a
spirit rather hostile to Edward IV, merely states that Prince Edward was
slain in the field' (Myers) See C.L. Kingsford, English Historical
Literature in the Fifteenth Century, pp. 376-78.
"I have followed Warkworth in attributing the Prince's death to Clarence,
because Warkworth's statement accords well with the character of Clarence
and the nature of the battle. Since Richard and the King were leading the
assaults against the centre of the Lancastrian line, it seems likely that
Clarence, perhaps commanding the reserve, would be in a better position to
mount as horse and lead the pursuit than his brothers who were in the thick
of combat."
Looking at all the contemporary testimony, including Clarence's own
statement, which did not claim responsibility for killing the Prince of
Wales, I cannot see why PMK, whom I respect and appreciate, would have laid
responsibility at Clarence's feet - even if it's the kind of thing he might
do.
Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 14:27:41
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Jonathan Evans
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 9:37 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Quoted from Edward IV's to-do list?
Jonathan
[JLT] <snort>
Gee, a new, previously-unknown and authoritative source!._
ROFL, Jonathan!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
__
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdWc4cGo4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzE5ODUzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MA--?act=reply&messageNum=19853> Reply via web post
<mailto:jmcevans98@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%20notes%20on%20the%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%20notes%20on%20the%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldXI3c3RtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MA--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/19851;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGI3amJsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzE5ODUzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MAR0cGNJZAMxOTg1MQ--> Messages in this topic (2)
Recent Activity:
· <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNGJiZ2p0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5MzcwNTA-?o=6> New Members 2
· <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJmb2U3ODNpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5MzcwNTA-> New Photos 1
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlazRqOHRrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MA--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb2E4cXBvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzUzOTM3MDUw> Yahoo! Groups
Switch to: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=19853/stime=1353937050/nc1=3848621/nc2=5008817/nc3=4025291>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 9:37 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Quoted from Edward IV's to-do list?
Jonathan
[JLT] <snort>
Gee, a new, previously-unknown and authoritative source!._
ROFL, Jonathan!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
__
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdWc4cGo4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzE5ODUzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MA--?act=reply&messageNum=19853> Reply via web post
<mailto:jmcevans98@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%20notes%20on%20the%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%20notes%20on%20the%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldXI3c3RtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MA--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/19851;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cGI3amJsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzE5ODUzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MAR0cGNJZAMxOTg1MQ--> Messages in this topic (2)
Recent Activity:
· <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNGJiZ2p0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5MzcwNTA-?o=6> New Members 2
· <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJmb2U3ODNpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5MzcwNTA-> New Photos 1
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlazRqOHRrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1MzkzNzA1MA--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb2E4cXBvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzUzOTM3MDUw> Yahoo! Groups
Switch to: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=19853/stime=1353937050/nc1=3848621/nc2=5008817/nc3=4025291>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 14:27:42
Johanne Tournier wrote:
"Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
"BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
//snip//
Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
tch, tch!
Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
Doug
"Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
"BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
//snip//
Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
tch, tch!
Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
Doug
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 14:44:43
".......... his first major battle .........."
You mean he wasn't at St. Albans, hacking Lancastrians apart between nappy changes?
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Dear All -
Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age.
BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing. The King followed
his brother into the centre of the line, opposite Prince Edward, the son of
Margaret, and Lord Wenlock, the friend of Warwick. Hastings, with the
rearguard filled up the position to the right until his flank touched the
Swillbrook.
"Richard at once led an assault. But the 'foul lanes' and many hedges made
it impossible for him to get at the enemy. There followed a fierce exchange
of arrows, with some cannon fire. Then Somerset, perceiving that his foes
were checked, decided upon a bold stroke. Concealed by the hedges and
thickets, he led his army westward to the slope of the wooded knoll and
charged down upon the Yorkist left flank. Coolly Richard rallied his men.
Though they gave some ground they did not fall into panic. Once he and his
captains had reformed their line to face Somerset, they pressed the attack
so vigorously that the Lancastrians began to fall back. At this moment a
small band of spears, whom King Edward had stationed on the knoll for just
such an emergency, descended upon Somerset's rear shouting as if they were
an army. Confused by this diversion and shaken by the fierce assault of the
Duke of Gloucester, Somerset's men wavered, then broke in headlong flight
towards the Avon. The pursuit which followed has given the name of 'Bloody
Meadow' to this ground.
"When Edward perceived that his brother had routed the Lancastrian right
wing, he himself attacked the centre, while Richard swung round upon its now
unprotected right flank. As Prince Edward was experiencing his first bitter
taste of battle, the Duke of Somerset rode up to Lord Wenlock in a fury,
cried that Wenlock had deliberately betrayed him by not supporting his flank
attack on Richard's wing, and with a single blow of his battle-axe cleft
Wenlock's skull. Beholding their leaders butchering each other as King
Edward and the Duke of Gloucester splintered their line, the Lancastrian
centre crumbled into flight. Many were drowned trying to cross the Avon;
many fell beneath the swords of the closely pursuing Yorkists; some hid
themselves in the abbey or the town. Swept away by the rout and spurring
toward Tewkesbury in terror, Prince Edward was overtaken by a detachment
commanded by the Duke of Clarence. Though the youth cried for succor to the
man who had shortly before been his ally, he was immediately slain. Clarence
was no doubt eager to assert his new-found loyalty." (pgs. 102-103)
Here are Kendall's notes about the passage:
1 . . . quotations are from the Arrivall (pp. 27-28). I have reconstructed
the battle from its wonderfully vivid, though patchy, account, the only
contemporary narrative, and from my own study of the field. The best modern
account is that of Col. A.H. Burne, Battlefields of England, pp. 117-136,
which I have found most helpful.
2 "No less than seven contemporary sources offer unanimous testimony that
Prince Edward 'was slain on the field,' i.e. in the pursuit.
1) The Arrivall, admittedly Yorkist in viewpoint, says simply that
'Edward, called Prince, was taken, fleeing to the townwards, and slain, in
the field' (p. 30)
2) The Croyland chronicler, although a councilor of King Edward's, was a
learned churchman and he wrote his account after the death of Richard, when
he was free to say what he pleased (for the identity of this chronicler, see
Appendix II, p. 432). Although his statement is not couched in the clearest
terms, he indicates that the Prince, as the Arrivall declared, was slain in
the field. Gairdner supports this interpretation (Hist. Croy. Chron., p.
555).
3) Warkworth, a contemporary chronicler who cannot be accused of Yorkist
bias, says that the Prince was overtaken in the pursuit and slain even as
'he cried for succor to his brother-in-law, the Duke of Clarence' (p. 18).
4) Clarence himself, who would not be likely to feel any scruples in
reporting to a friend exactly how the Prince died, wrote, two days after the
field, that 'Edward, late called Prince,' and 'other estates, knights,
squires, and gentlemen were slain in plain battle' (HMC, Rutland, I, p. 4).
5) Commynes says that Prince Edward was 'killed on the field.' (I, p.
220).
6) A paper written, apparently, immediately after the battle lists as 'Ded
in the Field' a number of lords headed by 'Edward that was called Prynce'
(P.L., III, pp. 8-9).
7) The Tewkesbury Chronicle - of which Professor Myers has kindly reminded
me - 'in an account of the battle probably written soon afterwards, and in a
spirit rather hostile to Edward IV, merely states that Prince Edward was
slain in the field' (Myers) See C.L. Kingsford, English Historical
Literature in the Fifteenth Century, pp. 376-78.
"I have followed Warkworth in attributing the Prince's death to Clarence,
because Warkworth's statement accords well with the character of Clarence
and the nature of the battle. Since Richard and the King were leading the
assaults against the centre of the Lancastrian line, it seems likely that
Clarence, perhaps commanding the reserve, would be in a better position to
mount as horse and lead the pursuit than his brothers who were in the thick
of combat."
Looking at all the contemporary testimony, including Clarence's own
statement, which did not claim responsibility for killing the Prince of
Wales, I cannot see why PMK, whom I respect and appreciate, would have laid
responsibility at Clarence's feet - even if it's the kind of thing he might
do.
Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You mean he wasn't at St. Albans, hacking Lancastrians apart between nappy changes?
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Dear All -
Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age.
BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing. The King followed
his brother into the centre of the line, opposite Prince Edward, the son of
Margaret, and Lord Wenlock, the friend of Warwick. Hastings, with the
rearguard filled up the position to the right until his flank touched the
Swillbrook.
"Richard at once led an assault. But the 'foul lanes' and many hedges made
it impossible for him to get at the enemy. There followed a fierce exchange
of arrows, with some cannon fire. Then Somerset, perceiving that his foes
were checked, decided upon a bold stroke. Concealed by the hedges and
thickets, he led his army westward to the slope of the wooded knoll and
charged down upon the Yorkist left flank. Coolly Richard rallied his men.
Though they gave some ground they did not fall into panic. Once he and his
captains had reformed their line to face Somerset, they pressed the attack
so vigorously that the Lancastrians began to fall back. At this moment a
small band of spears, whom King Edward had stationed on the knoll for just
such an emergency, descended upon Somerset's rear shouting as if they were
an army. Confused by this diversion and shaken by the fierce assault of the
Duke of Gloucester, Somerset's men wavered, then broke in headlong flight
towards the Avon. The pursuit which followed has given the name of 'Bloody
Meadow' to this ground.
"When Edward perceived that his brother had routed the Lancastrian right
wing, he himself attacked the centre, while Richard swung round upon its now
unprotected right flank. As Prince Edward was experiencing his first bitter
taste of battle, the Duke of Somerset rode up to Lord Wenlock in a fury,
cried that Wenlock had deliberately betrayed him by not supporting his flank
attack on Richard's wing, and with a single blow of his battle-axe cleft
Wenlock's skull. Beholding their leaders butchering each other as King
Edward and the Duke of Gloucester splintered their line, the Lancastrian
centre crumbled into flight. Many were drowned trying to cross the Avon;
many fell beneath the swords of the closely pursuing Yorkists; some hid
themselves in the abbey or the town. Swept away by the rout and spurring
toward Tewkesbury in terror, Prince Edward was overtaken by a detachment
commanded by the Duke of Clarence. Though the youth cried for succor to the
man who had shortly before been his ally, he was immediately slain. Clarence
was no doubt eager to assert his new-found loyalty." (pgs. 102-103)
Here are Kendall's notes about the passage:
1 . . . quotations are from the Arrivall (pp. 27-28). I have reconstructed
the battle from its wonderfully vivid, though patchy, account, the only
contemporary narrative, and from my own study of the field. The best modern
account is that of Col. A.H. Burne, Battlefields of England, pp. 117-136,
which I have found most helpful.
2 "No less than seven contemporary sources offer unanimous testimony that
Prince Edward 'was slain on the field,' i.e. in the pursuit.
1) The Arrivall, admittedly Yorkist in viewpoint, says simply that
'Edward, called Prince, was taken, fleeing to the townwards, and slain, in
the field' (p. 30)
2) The Croyland chronicler, although a councilor of King Edward's, was a
learned churchman and he wrote his account after the death of Richard, when
he was free to say what he pleased (for the identity of this chronicler, see
Appendix II, p. 432). Although his statement is not couched in the clearest
terms, he indicates that the Prince, as the Arrivall declared, was slain in
the field. Gairdner supports this interpretation (Hist. Croy. Chron., p.
555).
3) Warkworth, a contemporary chronicler who cannot be accused of Yorkist
bias, says that the Prince was overtaken in the pursuit and slain even as
'he cried for succor to his brother-in-law, the Duke of Clarence' (p. 18).
4) Clarence himself, who would not be likely to feel any scruples in
reporting to a friend exactly how the Prince died, wrote, two days after the
field, that 'Edward, late called Prince,' and 'other estates, knights,
squires, and gentlemen were slain in plain battle' (HMC, Rutland, I, p. 4).
5) Commynes says that Prince Edward was 'killed on the field.' (I, p.
220).
6) A paper written, apparently, immediately after the battle lists as 'Ded
in the Field' a number of lords headed by 'Edward that was called Prynce'
(P.L., III, pp. 8-9).
7) The Tewkesbury Chronicle - of which Professor Myers has kindly reminded
me - 'in an account of the battle probably written soon afterwards, and in a
spirit rather hostile to Edward IV, merely states that Prince Edward was
slain in the field' (Myers) See C.L. Kingsford, English Historical
Literature in the Fifteenth Century, pp. 376-78.
"I have followed Warkworth in attributing the Prince's death to Clarence,
because Warkworth's statement accords well with the character of Clarence
and the nature of the battle. Since Richard and the King were leading the
assaults against the centre of the Lancastrian line, it seems likely that
Clarence, perhaps commanding the reserve, would be in a better position to
mount as horse and lead the pursuit than his brothers who were in the thick
of combat."
Looking at all the contemporary testimony, including Clarence's own
statement, which did not claim responsibility for killing the Prince of
Wales, I cannot see why PMK, whom I respect and appreciate, would have laid
responsibility at Clarence's feet - even if it's the kind of thing he might
do.
Tomorrow I'll try to get the death of Henry VI done.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 15:28:13
Tch, tch, is right!
Remember, I was in the Navy, not the Army! I remember discussions of this
sort of thing when I used to read about Napoleon's battles or the American
Civil War, and I did my best to skip over them!
Ack! I went back and looked at Kendall's diagram of the layout of the
forces, and you're right: Richard was on the *left* at Tewkesbury, facing
the Lancastrian right wing led by Somerset. PMK did say, however, that
Richard *was* leading the van, or the vanguard.
Taking a look back at Barnet - there Richard was also leading the van or
vanguard, but there he was on the *right* side of the Yorkist forces.
Trying to cast my mind back (my memory is good but it's short, remember!) to
our discussion of a couple of weeks ago about where the van and reserve
forces disposed themselves in these battles, I thought the consensus was
that if Richard led the van, he would have been on the Yorkist right side,
facing the Lancastran left wing. It appears that that is not necessarily the
case, since at Barnet Richard was on the right, but at Tewkesbury he was on
the left, yet in both cases he was leading the van.
How did they decide who would go where without tripping over one another or
getting in the line of their own troops' fire? It's not like they had
walkie talkies or cell phones. Help!
Loyaulte but incompetentle me lie,
Johanne
(Just put me with George, in the reserves)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Douglas Eugene
Stamate
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 11:30 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanne Tournier wrote:
"Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
"BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
//snip//
Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
tch, tch!
Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
Doug
Remember, I was in the Navy, not the Army! I remember discussions of this
sort of thing when I used to read about Napoleon's battles or the American
Civil War, and I did my best to skip over them!
Ack! I went back and looked at Kendall's diagram of the layout of the
forces, and you're right: Richard was on the *left* at Tewkesbury, facing
the Lancastrian right wing led by Somerset. PMK did say, however, that
Richard *was* leading the van, or the vanguard.
Taking a look back at Barnet - there Richard was also leading the van or
vanguard, but there he was on the *right* side of the Yorkist forces.
Trying to cast my mind back (my memory is good but it's short, remember!) to
our discussion of a couple of weeks ago about where the van and reserve
forces disposed themselves in these battles, I thought the consensus was
that if Richard led the van, he would have been on the Yorkist right side,
facing the Lancastran left wing. It appears that that is not necessarily the
case, since at Barnet Richard was on the right, but at Tewkesbury he was on
the left, yet in both cases he was leading the van.
How did they decide who would go where without tripping over one another or
getting in the line of their own troops' fire? It's not like they had
walkie talkies or cell phones. Help!
Loyaulte but incompetentle me lie,
Johanne
(Just put me with George, in the reserves)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Douglas Eugene
Stamate
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 11:30 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanne Tournier wrote:
"Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
"BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
"Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
//snip//
Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
tch, tch!
Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
Doug
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 17:11:43
I have it on good authority that he slept with a miniature battle-axe clutched in his tiny fist, just in case the battle moved closer to home.
~Weds
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ".......... his first major battle .........."
>
> You mean he wasn't at St. Albans, hacking Lancastrians apart between nappy changes?
~Weds
--- In , "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ".......... his first major battle .........."
>
> You mean he wasn't at St. Albans, hacking Lancastrians apart between nappy changes?
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 17:33:28
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:12 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
I have it on good authority that he slept with a miniature battle-axe
clutched in his tiny fist, just in case the battle moved closer to home.
~Weds
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ".......... his first major battle .........."
>
> You mean he wasn't at St. Albans, hacking Lancastrians apart between nappy
changes?
[JLT] badum, badum!
But seriously . . . according to PMK, Richard at the end of January, 1464,
was named sole Commissioner of Array to raise troops in nine of the 22
counties in the southern part of England at the age of 12! (And also
according to PMK, the usual rule was to name 6 commissioners for each
county.) So you may be close to the mark when you suggest that Richard was
hacking up Lancastrians in between nappy changes! I wonder if he had a war
cry, like a "rebel yell" or something. Or did they just rely on trumpets?
(And, for what it's worth, 3 years older George was not named commissioner
for a single county.)
Richard must have been a truly exceptional young lad! I wish I could have
known him!
Does anyone know of any instances of substantial responsibilities like this
being given to a 12 year old? I'm assuming there were kings who sometimes
ruled at age 12 - but wouldn't they have had mature counselors to advise
them? I wonder if there was a seasoned veteran who was assigned to assist
Richard?
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:12 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
I have it on good authority that he slept with a miniature battle-axe
clutched in his tiny fist, just in case the battle moved closer to home.
~Weds
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ".......... his first major battle .........."
>
> You mean he wasn't at St. Albans, hacking Lancastrians apart between nappy
changes?
[JLT] badum, badum!
But seriously . . . according to PMK, Richard at the end of January, 1464,
was named sole Commissioner of Array to raise troops in nine of the 22
counties in the southern part of England at the age of 12! (And also
according to PMK, the usual rule was to name 6 commissioners for each
county.) So you may be close to the mark when you suggest that Richard was
hacking up Lancastrians in between nappy changes! I wonder if he had a war
cry, like a "rebel yell" or something. Or did they just rely on trumpets?
(And, for what it's worth, 3 years older George was not named commissioner
for a single county.)
Richard must have been a truly exceptional young lad! I wish I could have
known him!
Does anyone know of any instances of substantial responsibilities like this
being given to a 12 year old? I'm assuming there were kings who sometimes
ruled at age 12 - but wouldn't they have had mature counselors to advise
them? I wonder if there was a seasoned veteran who was assigned to assist
Richard?
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 17:38:37
It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the "van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury (which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 18:00:14
Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
blancsanglier1452
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
<destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
"van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
(which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
blancsanglier1452
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
<destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
"van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
(which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 18:11:08
Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!
http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Facebook
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
blancsanglier1452
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
<destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
"van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
(which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
blancsanglier1452
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
<destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
"van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
(which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 18:14:44
Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> Facebook
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook   Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook   Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 18:26:11
Hi, Ishita and Eileen –
Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his “Departure from
Leicester” – it’s almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
“Military Art” website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
them that feature Richard and/or Edward – here:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
it=Go....
Here’s a tinyurl –
http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
He’s great!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
<bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> Facebook
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his “Departure from
Leicester” – it’s almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
“Military Art” website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
them that feature Richard and/or Edward – here:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
it=Go....
Here’s a tinyurl –
http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
He’s great!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
<bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 18:43:23
Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Facebook
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hi, Ishita and Eileen
Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his Departure from
Leicester it's almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
Military Art website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
them that feature Richard and/or Edward here:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
it=Go....
Here's a tinyurl
http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
He's great!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
<bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> Facebook
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hi, Ishita and Eileen
Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his Departure from
Leicester it's almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
Military Art website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
them that feature Richard and/or Edward here:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
it=Go....
Here's a tinyurl
http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
He's great!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
<bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 18:57:42
Departure from Leicester....crickey....glorious but yes, tinged with sadness....Eileen
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Ishita and Eileen –
>
> Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
> were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his "Departure from
> Leicester" – it's almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
> "Military Art" website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
> them that feature Richard and/or Edward – here:
>
>
>
> http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
> it=Go....
>
>
>
> Here's a tinyurl –
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
>
>
>
> He's great!
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
>
>
>
> Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
> it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
> <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
> have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> > http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
> >
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > Facebook
> >
> > Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
> Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
> >  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
> Like
> >   Get this email app! Â
> > Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> > left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
> Tewkesbury
> > battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> > and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
> right
> > wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
> >
> > I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
> up
> > on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > blancsanglier1452
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
> >
> > Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
> on
> > the left.
> >
> > Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
> tell
> > us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
> Stamate"
> > <destama@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> > of
> > > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
>
> > > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
> that
> > > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> > appears
> > > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
> age."
> > > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> > "van"
> > > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> > (which
> > > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> > >
> > > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
> vanguard,
> > > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> > position
> > > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > > //snip//
> > >
> > > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
> Tch,
> > > tch, tch!
> > > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > > Doug
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Ishita and Eileen –
>
> Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
> were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his "Departure from
> Leicester" – it's almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
> "Military Art" website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
> them that feature Richard and/or Edward – here:
>
>
>
> http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
> it=Go....
>
>
>
> Here's a tinyurl –
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
>
>
>
> He's great!
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
>
>
>
> Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
> it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
> <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
> have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> > http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
> >
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> >
> > Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
> Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
> >  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
> Like
> >   Get this email app! Â
> > Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> > left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
> Tewkesbury
> > battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> > and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
> right
> > wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
> >
> > I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
> up
> > on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > blancsanglier1452
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
> >
> > Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
> on
> > the left.
> >
> > Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
> tell
> > us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
> Stamate"
> > <destama@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> > of
> > > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
>
> > > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
> that
> > > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> > appears
> > > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
> age."
> > > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> > "van"
> > > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> > (which
> > > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> > >
> > > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
> vanguard,
> > > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> > position
> > > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > > //snip//
> > >
> > > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
> Tch,
> > > tch, tch!
> > > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > > Doug
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 19:03:04
Ironically, for the first time SINCE Tewkesbury, I wasn't having a go at ye ;) but at Kendall's occasional lack of clarity.
A hint as to why the Royal van ended up on the left: the battle of Barnet and the lessons the king drew...?
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> Facebook
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook   Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hi, Ishita and Eileen â€"
>
> Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
> were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his “Departure from
> Leicester†â€" it’s almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
> “Military Art†website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
> them that feature Richard and/or Edward â€" here:
>
> http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
> it=Go....
>
> Here’s a tinyurl â€"
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
>
> He’s great!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
> it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
> <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
> have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> > http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
> >
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > Facebook
> >
> > Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
> Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
> >  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
> Like
> >   Get this email app! Â
> > Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> > left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
> Tewkesbury
> > battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> > and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
> right
> > wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
> >
> > I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
> up
> > on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > blancsanglier1452
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
> >
> > Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
> on
> > the left.
> >
> > Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
> tell
> > us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
> Stamate"
> > <destama@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> > of
> > > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
>
> > > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
> that
> > > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> > appears
> > > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
> age."
> > > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> > "van"
> > > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> > (which
> > > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> > >
> > > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
> vanguard,
> > > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> > position
> > > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > > //snip//
> > >
> > > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
> Tch,
> > > tch, tch!
> > > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > > Doug
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
A hint as to why the Royal van ended up on the left: the battle of Barnet and the lessons the king drew...?
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook   Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hi, Ishita and Eileen â€"
>
> Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
> were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his “Departure from
> Leicester†â€" it’s almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
> “Military Art†website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
> them that feature Richard and/or Edward â€" here:
>
> http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
> it=Go....
>
> Here’s a tinyurl â€"
>
> http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
>
> He’s great!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of EileenB
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
> it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
> <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
> have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> > http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
> >
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> >
> > Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
> Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
> >  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
> Like
> >   Get this email app! Â
> > Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> > Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> > left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
> Tewkesbury
> > battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> > and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
> right
> > wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
> >
> > I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
> up
> > on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > blancsanglier1452
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
> description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
> >
> > Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
> on
> > the left.
> >
> > Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
> tell
> > us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
> Stamate"
> > <destama@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> > of
> > > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
>
> > > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
> that
> > > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> > appears
> > > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
> age."
> > > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> > "van"
> > > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> > (which
> > > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> > >
> > > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
> vanguard,
> > > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> > position
> > > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > > //snip//
> > >
> > > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
> Tch,
> > > tch, tch!
> > > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > > Doug
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 20:12:39
Graham Turner is the most brilliant artist. I love his pencil sketches just as much as the finished work.
Liz
________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 18:11
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!
http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Facebook
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
blancsanglier1452
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
<destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
"van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
(which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
Liz
________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 18:11
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!
http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the Tewkesbury
battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian right
wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up
on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
blancsanglier1452
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be on
the left.
Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT tell
us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene Stamate"
<destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
>
> "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
of
> Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think that
> this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
appears
> he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of age."
> "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
"van"
> or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
(which
> Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
>
> "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the vanguard,
> marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
position
> facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> //snip//
>
> Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side? Tch,
> tch, tch!
> Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> Doug
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 20:14:31
Johanne Tournier wrote:
Johanne wrote:
>
> But seriously . . . according to PMK, Richard at the end of January, 1464, was named sole Commissioner of Array to raise troops in nine of the 22 counties in the southern part of England at the age of 12! (And also according to PMK, the usual rule was to name 6 commissioners for each county.) <snip>
> Does anyone know of any instances of substantial responsibilities like this being given to a 12 year old? I'm assuming there were kings who sometimes ruled at age 12 - but wouldn't they have had mature counselors to advise them? I wonder if there was a seasoned veteran who was assigned to assist Richard?
Carol responds:
Had Edward already sent him to live with the Earl of Warwick at this time? If so, the earl must have accompanied him and told him what to do. (It wouldn't involve actual fighting, of course, only recruiting troops.) If not, John Howard might have been his mentor here.
Carol
Johanne wrote:
>
> But seriously . . . according to PMK, Richard at the end of January, 1464, was named sole Commissioner of Array to raise troops in nine of the 22 counties in the southern part of England at the age of 12! (And also according to PMK, the usual rule was to name 6 commissioners for each county.) <snip>
> Does anyone know of any instances of substantial responsibilities like this being given to a 12 year old? I'm assuming there were kings who sometimes ruled at age 12 - but wouldn't they have had mature counselors to advise them? I wonder if there was a seasoned veteran who was assigned to assist Richard?
Carol responds:
Had Edward already sent him to live with the Earl of Warwick at this time? If so, the earl must have accompanied him and told him what to do. (It wouldn't involve actual fighting, of course, only recruiting troops.) If not, John Howard might have been his mentor here.
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 20:15:50
I used to read Look and Learn when I was a child. A couple of years ago I bought a copy of the recently published book (basically a facsimile of old editions) thinking my nieces might like it and actually develop an interest in history because of it.
Little so and so's weren't remotely interested. I am still reading through it though - talk about nostalgia.
________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 18:43
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Facebook
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hi, Ishita and Eileen
Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his Departure from
Leicester it's almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
Military Art website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
them that feature Richard and/or Edward here:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
it=Go....
Here's a tinyurl
http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
He's great!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
<bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> Facebook
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Little so and so's weren't remotely interested. I am still reading through it though - talk about nostalgia.
________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 18:43
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hi, Ishita and Eileen
Yes, I love Graham Turner! I was going to write a while ago and ask if you
were aware of his paintings. I just bought a copy of his Departure from
Leicester it's almost makes me cry just looking at it! There is a
Military Art website where you can buy his prints. There are a number of
them that feature Richard and/or Edward here:
http://www.worldnavalships.com/military_artist.php?Artist=Graham_Turner&Subm
it=Go....
Here's a tinyurl
http://tinyurl.com/cpj5frm
He's great!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of EileenB
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 2:15 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Ishita....that artwork is brilliant. I have seen it before but never tire of
it. What we need is more artwork....bring it on....Eileen
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo
<bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna, check this link out! At least the Duke of Gloucester does not
have a hump and an withered arm:) This one is about Battle of Barnet!Â
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/acatalog/Detail_from_Challenge_in_the_Mist.html
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
>
> Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
> www.ishitabandyo.com
>
> Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly!
Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
>  Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook  Â
Like
>   Get this email app! Â
> Designed with WiseStamp - Get yoursÂ
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
> Hello, Blanc Sanglier!
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have that excuse. I usually know my right from my
> left. I just didn't pay that much attention to the diagram of the
Tewkesbury
> battle, assumed that Richard was on the right, since he was the vanguard,
> and skipped over the part of the text that mentioned the "Lancastrian
right
> wing." Sloppy, sloppy. I would fire me, if I weren't a volunteer!
>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended
up
> on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> blancsanglier1452
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 1:39 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's
description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> It depends on wether someone knows their R from L though :p
>
> Obviously, if someone is FACING 'the Lancastrian right wing' they must be
on
> the left.
>
> Of course, the vanguard did customarilly fight on the right... can JLT
tell
> us why Tewkesbury was an exception...? LOL
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene
Stamate"
> <destama@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Johanne Tournier wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Here is Kendall's description of the battle of Tewkesbury and the death
> of
> > Edward the Prince of Wales. I am including the description of the events
> > before the death of Prince Edward, because it is remarkable to think
that
> > this was Richard's first major battle, and he was not only brave, it
> appears
> > he was a keen strategist as well. And he was just eighteen years of
age."
> > "BTW, it wasn't too long ago that we had a discussion about where the
> "van"
> > or "vanguard" would have been lined up for battle. From Kendall's
> > description elsewhere, it does appear that the vanguard at Tewkesbury
> (which
> > Richard was leading) was on the right side of the Yorkist forces:
> >
> > "Early next morning Richard of Gloucester, again commanding the
vanguard,
> > marched northwestward across this inhospitable country to take up a
> position
> > facing the Duke of Somerset on the Lancastrian right wing."
> > //snip//
> >
> > Don't you mean the Yorkist van under Richard was on the "left" side?
Tch,
> > tch, tch!
> > Seriously though, thanks for the information and the effort!
> > Doug
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 20:24:53
Johanne Tournier wrote:
<snip>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Carol responds:
Well, there's always Sharon Kay Penman's explanation--Hastings's wing ("battle") had broken at Barnet, so Edward didn't want him facing the Earl of Oxford again. But why he didn't just assign Hastings to the van and Richard to the left instead of having the van fight on the right, I don't know.
All of this is disregarding the previous discussion in which the "battles" took turns, with the van fighting first, then the center, and then the left, which makes no sense to me (and would make the vanguard a very dangerous place to be!).
Carol, who would have been a dismal failure as a battle tactician!
<snip>
> I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
Carol responds:
Well, there's always Sharon Kay Penman's explanation--Hastings's wing ("battle") had broken at Barnet, so Edward didn't want him facing the Earl of Oxford again. But why he didn't just assign Hastings to the van and Richard to the left instead of having the van fight on the right, I don't know.
All of this is disregarding the previous discussion in which the "battles" took turns, with the van fighting first, then the center, and then the left, which makes no sense to me (and would make the vanguard a very dangerous place to be!).
Carol, who would have been a dismal failure as a battle tactician!
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 20:39:39
Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a 19-year old with one battle behind him.
It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think. Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
> <snip>
> > I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Well, there's always Sharon Kay Penman's explanation--Hastings's wing ("battle") had broken at Barnet, so Edward didn't want him facing the Earl of Oxford again. But why he didn't just assign Hastings to the van and Richard to the left instead of having the van fight on the right, I don't know.
>
> All of this is disregarding the previous discussion in which the "battles" took turns, with the van fighting first, then the center, and then the left, which makes no sense to me (and would make the vanguard a very dangerous place to be!).
>
> Carol, who would have been a dismal failure as a battle tactician!
>
The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a 19-year old with one battle behind him.
It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think. Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
> <snip>
> > I will check to see if PMK says anything further about why Richard ended up on the left side. Perhaps it can be inferred from his description.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Well, there's always Sharon Kay Penman's explanation--Hastings's wing ("battle") had broken at Barnet, so Edward didn't want him facing the Earl of Oxford again. But why he didn't just assign Hastings to the van and Richard to the left instead of having the van fight on the right, I don't know.
>
> All of this is disregarding the previous discussion in which the "battles" took turns, with the van fighting first, then the center, and then the left, which makes no sense to me (and would make the vanguard a very dangerous place to be!).
>
> Carol, who would have been a dismal failure as a battle tactician!
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 20:57:13
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Carol responds:
That's a strange little page. It look as to me as if the author is trying to be fair to Richard but doesn't quite know how, still clinging to myths like the (soon-to-be) Blue boar Inn and Richard giving the order to kill Lord Strange (no "boy" at age 25). As far as I know, Thomas Stanley didn't join the battle--and Henry certainly wasn't already married to Elizabeth of York at this point. Also, of course, the Duke of Norfolk was John, not Richard.
Oh, well. At least it attempts to be sympathetic. Too bad it contains so many factual errors.
Carol
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Carol responds:
That's a strange little page. It look as to me as if the author is trying to be fair to Richard but doesn't quite know how, still clinging to myths like the (soon-to-be) Blue boar Inn and Richard giving the order to kill Lord Strange (no "boy" at age 25). As far as I know, Thomas Stanley didn't join the battle--and Henry certainly wasn't already married to Elizabeth of York at this point. Also, of course, the Duke of Norfolk was John, not Richard.
Oh, well. At least it attempts to be sympathetic. Too bad it contains so many factual errors.
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 21:30:01
"blancsanglier1452" wrote:
>
> Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
>
> The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
>
> Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a 19-year old with one battle behind him.
>
> It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think. Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
Carol responds:
Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining in these discussions.
Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine days older than Edward of Lancaster.
So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly did).
As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
Carol
>
> Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
>
> The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
>
> Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a 19-year old with one battle behind him.
>
> It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think. Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
Carol responds:
Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining in these discussions.
Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine days older than Edward of Lancaster.
So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly did).
As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 21:41:07
Carol earlier:
>
> Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.<snip>
Carol again:
Make that 1471. Wrong year, right age for Richard (18 since it was only April).
Carol
>
> Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.<snip>
Carol again:
Make that 1471. Wrong year, right age for Richard (18 since it was only April).
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 22:08:42
Carol, I just liked to picture that goes with it..... Did not read the article. It sounds atrocious!
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Facebook
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Carol responds:
That's a strange little page. It look as to me as if the author is trying to be fair to Richard but doesn't quite know how, still clinging to myths like the (soon-to-be) Blue boar Inn and Richard giving the order to kill Lord Strange (no "boy" at age 25). As far as I know, Thomas Stanley didn't join the battle--and Henry certainly wasn't already married to Elizabeth of York at this point. Also, of course, the Duke of Norfolk was John, not Richard.
Oh, well. At least it attempts to be sympathetic. Too bad it contains so many factual errors.
Carol
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
--- In , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Carol responds:
That's a strange little page. It look as to me as if the author is trying to be fair to Richard but doesn't quite know how, still clinging to myths like the (soon-to-be) Blue boar Inn and Richard giving the order to kill Lord Strange (no "boy" at age 25). As far as I know, Thomas Stanley didn't join the battle--and Henry certainly wasn't already married to Elizabeth of York at this point. Also, of course, the Duke of Norfolk was John, not Richard.
Oh, well. At least it attempts to be sympathetic. Too bad it contains so many factual errors.
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 22:28:10
Hi, Carol -
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 4:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanne wrote:
>
> But seriously . . . according to PMK, Richard at the end of January, 1464,
was named sole Commissioner of Array to raise troops in nine of the 22
counties in the southern part of England at the age of 12! (And also
according to PMK, the usual rule was to name 6 commissioners for each
county.) <snip>
> Does anyone know of any instances of substantial responsibilities like
this being given to a 12 year old? I'm assuming there were kings who
sometimes ruled at age 12 - but wouldn't they have had mature counselors to
advise them? I wonder if there was a seasoned veteran who was assigned to
assist Richard?
Carol responds:
Had Edward already sent him to live with the Earl of Warwick at this time?
If so, the earl must have accompanied him and told him what to do. (It
wouldn't involve actual fighting, of course, only recruiting troops.) If
not, John Howard might have been his mentor here.
Carol
[JLT] It seems clear from the text at this point that the Earl of Warwick
was off with Edward at this point, not with Richard. Here is what PMK
writes:
"By the end of January, 1464, Edward and Warwick were once again on the
march, southward this time. . . .They now determined upon a great effort to
clear Northumberland permanently of Lancastrian arms. Edward scraped
together every penny he could lay hands on and he dispatched commissioners
of array for twenty-two counties, the whole southern half of England.
"By these commissions young Richard of Gloucester was suddenly projected
upon the stage of great events.
"Customarily a half dozen or more men were appointed commissioners for each
county; a great magnate frequently served on the commissions for a number of
counties. In this case, however, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, was made sole
commissioner for nine of the twenty-two counties: the great belt of western
and southwestern lands extending from Shropshire and Warwickshire through
Somerset to Devon and Cornwall. If his powers were to have been merely
nominal - and they had been in the commissions of November, 1461, he would
have been associated with other commissioners. It appears that Richard, at
the age of twelve, had been entrusted by his royal brother with the
surprisingly responsible charge of levying troops from a quarter of the
realm. In this region he had not long before been granted broad lands and
offices.
"George of Clarence, three years Richard's senior, was not appointed
commissioner for a single county."
[PMK then discusses evidence of George's jealousy of Richard and his
greediness at Richard's expense.]
"Apparently in February or March of 1464 Richard rode from Middleham into
the southwest. His commissions of array arrived early in May. The King had
left London on April 28, ordering a rendezvous of his forces at Leicester on
May 10. By that date a small figure in full armour had led his county levies
northward through Worcester and Coventry to join the royal army, skirting a
few miles to his left as he drew near Leicester a village called Market
Bosworth.
[PMK reports that by the time Edward and Richard reached Pontefract, the
Lancastrian forces were already shattered at the battle of Hedgeley Moor
with Sir Ralph Percy slain by Montagu. Three weeks later, on May 15, Montagu
completed the job at Hexham, with many Lancastrians slain or executed after
the battle. The Yorkists then rendezvous'd at Leicester.]
"That day in Leicester, when Richard came riding in at the head of his
county levies, Edward must have smiled at the sight of his small brother,
very serious in his martial harness. But it was a smile of more than
amusement. Without George's inches, maturity, health, or charm, Richard had
already won first place in the affections and confidence of King Edward. He
was eleven years old." (pgs. 50-52)
I know adding the bits about Richard leading the levies is not strictly
necessary to answer your question; but the idea of this little boy in full
armor leading troops on horseback I find very touching, as is the fact that
he passed close to Market Bosworth and martialling his forces with Edward in
Leicester. What memories Richard must have had of that day long before when
he gathered his forces at Leicester in August, 1485, with the intent of
confronting Henry, the usurper!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne_
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
__
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNzEz
Y3ExBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzE5
OTE5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3Mg--?act=reply&messageNum=19
919> Reply via web post
<mailto:justcarol67@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%20F
orum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%20notes%20on%20th
e%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%
20notes%20on%20the%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to
group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN2F0
c2R1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3Mg--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/19851;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2ZjBwM3AyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzE5OTE5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3MgR0cGNJZAMxOTg1MQ-
-> Messages in this topic (18)
Recent Activity:
.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//members;_ylc=X3oDMTJma
DA4dDB1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2d
GwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5NjA4NzI-?o=6> New Members 2
.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZmx
tcWk1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGw
Ec2xrA3ZwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5NjA4NzI-> New Photos 1
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcXBmdmhuB
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3Mg--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMHR0bGpiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzUzOTYwODcy>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=
19919/stime=1353960872/nc1=5008815/nc2=3848614/nc3=4025373
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 4:15 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Johanne wrote:
>
> But seriously . . . according to PMK, Richard at the end of January, 1464,
was named sole Commissioner of Array to raise troops in nine of the 22
counties in the southern part of England at the age of 12! (And also
according to PMK, the usual rule was to name 6 commissioners for each
county.) <snip>
> Does anyone know of any instances of substantial responsibilities like
this being given to a 12 year old? I'm assuming there were kings who
sometimes ruled at age 12 - but wouldn't they have had mature counselors to
advise them? I wonder if there was a seasoned veteran who was assigned to
assist Richard?
Carol responds:
Had Edward already sent him to live with the Earl of Warwick at this time?
If so, the earl must have accompanied him and told him what to do. (It
wouldn't involve actual fighting, of course, only recruiting troops.) If
not, John Howard might have been his mentor here.
Carol
[JLT] It seems clear from the text at this point that the Earl of Warwick
was off with Edward at this point, not with Richard. Here is what PMK
writes:
"By the end of January, 1464, Edward and Warwick were once again on the
march, southward this time. . . .They now determined upon a great effort to
clear Northumberland permanently of Lancastrian arms. Edward scraped
together every penny he could lay hands on and he dispatched commissioners
of array for twenty-two counties, the whole southern half of England.
"By these commissions young Richard of Gloucester was suddenly projected
upon the stage of great events.
"Customarily a half dozen or more men were appointed commissioners for each
county; a great magnate frequently served on the commissions for a number of
counties. In this case, however, Richard, Duke of Gloucester, was made sole
commissioner for nine of the twenty-two counties: the great belt of western
and southwestern lands extending from Shropshire and Warwickshire through
Somerset to Devon and Cornwall. If his powers were to have been merely
nominal - and they had been in the commissions of November, 1461, he would
have been associated with other commissioners. It appears that Richard, at
the age of twelve, had been entrusted by his royal brother with the
surprisingly responsible charge of levying troops from a quarter of the
realm. In this region he had not long before been granted broad lands and
offices.
"George of Clarence, three years Richard's senior, was not appointed
commissioner for a single county."
[PMK then discusses evidence of George's jealousy of Richard and his
greediness at Richard's expense.]
"Apparently in February or March of 1464 Richard rode from Middleham into
the southwest. His commissions of array arrived early in May. The King had
left London on April 28, ordering a rendezvous of his forces at Leicester on
May 10. By that date a small figure in full armour had led his county levies
northward through Worcester and Coventry to join the royal army, skirting a
few miles to his left as he drew near Leicester a village called Market
Bosworth.
[PMK reports that by the time Edward and Richard reached Pontefract, the
Lancastrian forces were already shattered at the battle of Hedgeley Moor
with Sir Ralph Percy slain by Montagu. Three weeks later, on May 15, Montagu
completed the job at Hexham, with many Lancastrians slain or executed after
the battle. The Yorkists then rendezvous'd at Leicester.]
"That day in Leicester, when Richard came riding in at the head of his
county levies, Edward must have smiled at the sight of his small brother,
very serious in his martial harness. But it was a smile of more than
amusement. Without George's inches, maturity, health, or charm, Richard had
already won first place in the affections and confidence of King Edward. He
was eleven years old." (pgs. 50-52)
I know adding the bits about Richard leading the levies is not strictly
necessary to answer your question; but the idea of this little boy in full
armor leading troops on horseback I find very touching, as is the fact that
he passed close to Market Bosworth and martialling his forces with Edward in
Leicester. What memories Richard must have had of that day long before when
he gathered his forces at Leicester in August, 1485, with the intent of
confronting Henry, the usurper!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne_
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
__
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNzEz
Y3ExBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzE5
OTE5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3Mg--?act=reply&messageNum=19
919> Reply via web post
<mailto:justcarol67@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%20F
orum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%20notes%20on%20th
e%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Tewkesbury%20-%20Kendall%27s%20description%20and%
20notes%20on%20the%20death%20of%20Edward%20Prince%20of%20Wales> Reply to
group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN2F0
c2R1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3Mg--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/19851;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2ZjBwM3AyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzE5OTE5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3MgR0cGNJZAMxOTg1MQ-
-> Messages in this topic (18)
Recent Activity:
.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//members;_ylc=X3oDMTJma
DA4dDB1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2d
GwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5NjA4NzI-?o=6> New Members 2
.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZmx
tcWk1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGw
Ec2xrA3ZwaG90BHN0aW1lAzEzNTM5NjA4NzI-> New Photos 1
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcXBmdmhuB
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1Mzk2MDg3Mg--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMHR0bGpiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzUzOTYwODcy>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=
19919/stime=1353960872/nc1=5008815/nc2=3848614/nc3=4025373
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 23:25:15
Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
"blancsanglier1452" wrote:
>
> Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
>
> The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
(he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
>
> Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
19-year old with one battle behind him.
>
> It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
Carol responds:
Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
[JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
English.
Carol wrote:
BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
in these discussions.
[JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
software, wouldn't it??
I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
it!
But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
Carol wrote:
Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
days older than Edward of Lancaster.
So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
did).
As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
Carol
[JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
with Penman's interpretation.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
"blancsanglier1452" wrote:
>
> Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
>
> The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
(he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
>
> Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
19-year old with one battle behind him.
>
> It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
Carol responds:
Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
[JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
English.
Carol wrote:
BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
in these discussions.
[JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
software, wouldn't it??
I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
it!
But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
Carol wrote:
Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
days older than Edward of Lancaster.
So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
did).
As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
Carol
[JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
with Penman's interpretation.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Re: ichard III Society Forum] Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and
2012-11-26 23:29:14
Hi, Ishita
Why don't you do up a list of the Ricardian and WotR fiction that you have read? That will make it easier for us to make suggestions that you may not have read.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 6:09 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Carol, I just liked to picture that goes with it..... Did not read the article. It sounds atrocious!
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Facebook
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@... <mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Carol responds:
That's a strange little page. It look as to me as if the author is trying to be fair to Richard but doesn't quite know how, still clinging to myths like the (soon-to-be) Blue boar Inn and Richard giving the order to kill Lord Strange (no "boy" at age 25). As far as I know, Thomas Stanley didn't join the battle--and Henry certainly wasn't already married to Elizabeth of York at this point. Also, of course, the Duke of Norfolk was John, not Richard.
Oh, well. At least it attempts to be sympathetic. Too bad it contains so many factual errors.
Carol
Why don't you do up a list of the Ricardian and WotR fiction that you have read? That will make it easier for us to make suggestions that you may not have read.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 6:09 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Carol, I just liked to picture that goes with it..... Did not read the article. It sounds atrocious!
Ishita Bandyo
Ishita Bandyo Contemporary Fine Art
www.ishitabandyo.com
Latest post: Okay, power back! Hot water shower never seemed so heavenly! Now I have to make up for a week of not painting.......
Like · Comment · Share Ishita Bandyo Fine Arts page on Facebook Like
Get this email app!
Designed with WiseStamp - Get yours
________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@... <mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanna and Eileen, here's another one. Again, I am teary eyed........
> http://www.lookandlearn.com/blog/15424/richard-iii-was-betrayed-at-the-battle-of-bosworth-field/
Carol responds:
That's a strange little page. It look as to me as if the author is trying to be fair to Richard but doesn't quite know how, still clinging to myths like the (soon-to-be) Blue boar Inn and Richard giving the order to kill Lord Strange (no "boy" at age 25). As far as I know, Thomas Stanley didn't join the battle--and Henry certainly wasn't already married to Elizabeth of York at this point. Also, of course, the Duke of Norfolk was John, not Richard.
Oh, well. At least it attempts to be sympathetic. Too bad it contains so many factual errors.
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 23:36:58
Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
~Picky!Wednesday
A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
~Picky!Wednesday
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-26 23:56:50
"wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
>
> A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
>
> When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
>
> ~Picky!Wednesday
>
Carol responds:
And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty disposition.
Not that I know much about horses. Can't stand them, actually, except to watch from a distance.
Carol
>
> Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
>
> A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
>
> When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
>
> ~Picky!Wednesday
>
Carol responds:
And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty disposition.
Not that I know much about horses. Can't stand them, actually, except to watch from a distance.
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 00:27:57
Hi, Weds & Carol -
I love Graham Turner's artwork, so I don't want to be too picky. About the
horses, yes, they look like nice riding horses to me, but not war horses.
The other thing is that there is a pretty good chance that the horse that
Richard rode was white and named "White Syrie" (indicating that he was
Syrian breed) or "White Surrey."
The other thing is that in some of the other paintings of Richard's last
charge, he is using a . . . not a lance, what do you call the thing you use
when you're jousting? - well, Richard is wielding one of those while he's
charging. I don't think so! OK, I know nothing about such a charge, but it
seems very impractical to me. And sometimes they show Richard wielding a
broadsword. But we know he preferred a battle-axe, and I figure he must have
cut a pretty intimidating figure slashing away with that from horseback. So
in his last charge, I think he was probably using the battle-axe, and I
would like to see some of these great images showing him with a battle-axe!
(Gee, I guess he's got more in common with Gimli the Dwarf than I would have
thought - that was Gimli's favourite weapon, too!)
Nighty-night,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
"wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into
battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
>
> A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense
rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long
legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian,
since the original breed is extinct.
>
> When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a
fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War
horse, no.)
>
> ~Picky!Wednesday
>
Carol responds:
And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a
Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little
son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like
the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the
shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for
food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as
dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty
disposition.
Not that I know much about horses. Can't stand them, actually, except to
watch from a distance.
Carol
I love Graham Turner's artwork, so I don't want to be too picky. About the
horses, yes, they look like nice riding horses to me, but not war horses.
The other thing is that there is a pretty good chance that the horse that
Richard rode was white and named "White Syrie" (indicating that he was
Syrian breed) or "White Surrey."
The other thing is that in some of the other paintings of Richard's last
charge, he is using a . . . not a lance, what do you call the thing you use
when you're jousting? - well, Richard is wielding one of those while he's
charging. I don't think so! OK, I know nothing about such a charge, but it
seems very impractical to me. And sometimes they show Richard wielding a
broadsword. But we know he preferred a battle-axe, and I figure he must have
cut a pretty intimidating figure slashing away with that from horseback. So
in his last charge, I think he was probably using the battle-axe, and I
would like to see some of these great images showing him with a battle-axe!
(Gee, I guess he's got more in common with Gimli the Dwarf than I would have
thought - that was Gimli's favourite weapon, too!)
Nighty-night,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
"wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into
battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
>
> A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense
rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long
legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian,
since the original breed is extinct.
>
> When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a
fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War
horse, no.)
>
> ~Picky!Wednesday
>
Carol responds:
And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a
Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little
son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like
the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the
shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for
food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as
dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty
disposition.
Not that I know much about horses. Can't stand them, actually, except to
watch from a distance.
Carol
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 02:40:00
I just like the imagery....... The horses or the weapon never even crossed my mind...... Shows what a silly romantic I am. I want a print of the Mist by Turner!!
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 26, 2012, at 7:27 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> Hi, Weds & Carol -
>
> I love Graham Turner's artwork, so I don't want to be too picky. About the
> horses, yes, they look like nice riding horses to me, but not war horses.
> The other thing is that there is a pretty good chance that the horse that
> Richard rode was white and named "White Syrie" (indicating that he was
> Syrian breed) or "White Surrey."
>
> The other thing is that in some of the other paintings of Richard's last
> charge, he is using a . . . not a lance, what do you call the thing you use
> when you're jousting? - well, Richard is wielding one of those while he's
> charging. I don't think so! OK, I know nothing about such a charge, but it
> seems very impractical to me. And sometimes they show Richard wielding a
> broadsword. But we know he preferred a battle-axe, and I figure he must have
> cut a pretty intimidating figure slashing away with that from horseback. So
> in his last charge, I think he was probably using the battle-axe, and I
> would like to see some of these great images showing him with a battle-axe!
> (Gee, I guess he's got more in common with Gimli the Dwarf than I would have
> thought - that was Gimli's favourite weapon, too!)
>
> Nighty-night,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:57 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
> >
> > Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into
> battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
> >
> > A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense
> rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long
> legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian,
> since the original breed is extinct.
> >
> > When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a
> fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War
> horse, no.)
> >
> > ~Picky!Wednesday
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a
> Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little
> son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like
> the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the
> shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for
> food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as
> dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty
> disposition.
>
> Not that I know much about horses. Can't stand them, actually, except to
> watch from a distance.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 26, 2012, at 7:27 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> Hi, Weds & Carol -
>
> I love Graham Turner's artwork, so I don't want to be too picky. About the
> horses, yes, they look like nice riding horses to me, but not war horses.
> The other thing is that there is a pretty good chance that the horse that
> Richard rode was white and named "White Syrie" (indicating that he was
> Syrian breed) or "White Surrey."
>
> The other thing is that in some of the other paintings of Richard's last
> charge, he is using a . . . not a lance, what do you call the thing you use
> when you're jousting? - well, Richard is wielding one of those while he's
> charging. I don't think so! OK, I know nothing about such a charge, but it
> seems very impractical to me. And sometimes they show Richard wielding a
> broadsword. But we know he preferred a battle-axe, and I figure he must have
> cut a pretty intimidating figure slashing away with that from horseback. So
> in his last charge, I think he was probably using the battle-axe, and I
> would like to see some of these great images showing him with a battle-axe!
> (Gee, I guess he's got more in common with Gimli the Dwarf than I would have
> thought - that was Gimli's favourite weapon, too!)
>
> Nighty-night,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 7:57 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
> >
> > Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into
> battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
> >
> > A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense
> rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long
> legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian,
> since the original breed is extinct.
> >
> > When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a
> fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War
> horse, no.)
> >
> > ~Picky!Wednesday
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a
> Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little
> son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like
> the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the
> shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for
> food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as
> dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty
> disposition.
>
> Not that I know much about horses. Can't stand them, actually, except to
> watch from a distance.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 07:08:50
--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
>
> "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
> >
> > A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
> >
> > When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
> >
> > ~Picky!Wednesday
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty disposition.
> Carol
A destrier was a weapon unto itself in battle. They were trained to attack with hooves and teeth. The Bayaeux Tapestry shows some grooms trying to load destriers onto the ship for the Channel crossing -- one is attacking a groom, ripping a big chunk of flesh off him.
Katy
>
>
> "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
> >
> > A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
> >
> > When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
> >
> > ~Picky!Wednesday
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> And there's the opposite mistake as well. I vaguely remember a scene from a Ricardian novel (can't remember which one) in which Richard sets his little son, Edward, on the back of a Destrier. I don't think so! That would be like the parents I once saw in Yellowstone placing their year-old-baby on the shoulders of a black bear that was wandering along the roadside looking for food. Were they out of their minds? And a Destrier would be just as dangerous with those sharp teeth and massive hooves and that nasty disposition.
> Carol
A destrier was a weapon unto itself in battle. They were trained to attack with hooves and teeth. The Bayaeux Tapestry shows some grooms trying to load destriers onto the ship for the Channel crossing -- one is attacking a groom, ripping a big chunk of flesh off him.
Katy
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 10:31:22
Destriers were very dangerous too for their handlers...I remember Katy tell me on here....many years ago but I aint forgotten! I love the little snippets....they could kill the grooms....Eileen
--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
>
> A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
>
> When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
>
> ~Picky!Wednesday
>
--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who cringes when an artist paints knights charging into battle on what looks like Thoroughbreds rather than Destriars?
>
> A Destrier was a massive animal, often taller than 24 hands, with a dense rounded body, a broad back, strong loins, powerful hind-quarters, and long legs with dense bones. I'm put in mind of a huge, heavy boned Andalusian, since the original breed is extinct.
>
> When it comes to horses, form always fits function, and taking a fine-boned Thoroughbred into battle just doesn't work. (Dressage, yeah. War horse, no.)
>
> ~Picky!Wednesday
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 11:24:42
As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course they are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old Will
Stanley found them.
I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
"blancsanglier1452" wrote:
>
> Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
>
> The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
(he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
>
> Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
19-year old with one battle behind him.
>
> It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
Carol responds:
Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
[JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
English.
Carol wrote:
BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
in these discussions.
[JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
software, wouldn't it??
I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
it!
But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
Carol wrote:
Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
days older than Edward of Lancaster.
So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
did).
As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
Carol
[JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
with Penman's interpretation.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Stanley found them.
I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
[mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
"blancsanglier1452" wrote:
>
> Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
>
> The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
(he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
>
> Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
19-year old with one battle behind him.
>
> It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
Carol responds:
Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
[JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
English.
Carol wrote:
BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
in these discussions.
[JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
software, wouldn't it??
I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
it!
But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
Carol wrote:
Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
days older than Edward of Lancaster.
So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
did).
As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
Carol
[JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
with Penman's interpretation.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 12:53:06
STONE ME you mean she's a bird? A real bird not a geezerbird? Blimey.
Well that does account for a lot.
Cheers!
HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course they are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old Will
> Stanley found them.
> I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> >
> > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> >
> > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> >
> > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> >
> > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
>
> [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> English.
>
> Carol wrote:
> BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> in these discussions.
>
> [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> software, wouldn't it??
>
> I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
>
> Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> it!
>
> But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
>
> http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
>
> Carol wrote:
> Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> days older than Edward of Lancaster.
>
> So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> did).
>
> As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
>
> Carol
>
> [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
>
> I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> with Penman's interpretation.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Well that does account for a lot.
Cheers!
HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course they are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old Will
> Stanley found them.
> I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
> Â
>
>
>
> Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
> "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> >
> > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> >
> > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> >
> > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> >
> > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
>
> [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> English.
>
> Carol wrote:
> BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> in these discussions.
>
> [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> software, wouldn't it??
>
> I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
>
> Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> it!
>
> But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
>
> http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
>
> Carol wrote:
> Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> days older than Edward of Lancaster.
>
> So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> did).
>
> As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
>
> Carol
>
> [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
>
> I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> with Penman's interpretation.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 13:40:40
I say! Let us not forget good old Boadicea.....Eileen
--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> STONE ME you mean she's a bird? A real bird not a geezerbird? Blimey.
> Well that does account for a lot.
> Cheers!
>
> HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course they are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old Will
> > Stanley found them.
> > I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> > >
> > > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> > >
> > > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> > Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> > (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> > because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> > >
> > > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> > and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> > 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> > >
> > > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> > Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> > don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> > woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> > of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> > telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
> >
> > [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> > Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> > the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> > than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> > background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> > who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> > Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> > take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> > III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> > did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> > of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> > Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> > English.
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> > work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> > generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> > in these discussions.
> >
> > [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> > chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> > too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> > master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> > software, wouldn't it??
> >
> > I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> > tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
> >
> > Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> > close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> > it!
> >
> > But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> > there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> > lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
> >
> > http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> > off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> > days older than Edward of Lancaster.
> >
> > So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> > Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> > did).
> >
> > As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> > [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> > possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> > comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> > though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
> >
> > I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> > with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> > and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> > with Penman's interpretation.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> STONE ME you mean she's a bird? A real bird not a geezerbird? Blimey.
> Well that does account for a lot.
> Cheers!
>
> HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course they are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old Will
> > Stanley found them.
> > I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> > >
> > > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> > >
> > > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> > Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> > (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> > because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> > >
> > > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> > and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> > 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> > >
> > > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> > Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> > don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> > woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> > of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> > telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
> >
> > [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> > Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> > the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> > than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> > background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> > who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> > Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> > take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> > III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> > did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> > of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> > Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> > English.
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> > work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> > generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> > in these discussions.
> >
> > [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> > chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> > too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> > master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> > software, wouldn't it??
> >
> > I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> > tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
> >
> > Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> > close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> > it!
> >
> > But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> > there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> > lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
> >
> > http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> > off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> > days older than Edward of Lancaster.
> >
> > So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> > Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> > did).
> >
> > As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> > [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> > possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> > comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> > though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
> >
> > I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> > with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> > and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> > with Penman's interpretation.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 13:48:49
Or "Boudica," as we're now told to call her. I just call her Queen of Iceni; who knows for sure what her nearest and dearest called her. I like "Sweetie Pie" myself.
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: EileenB <b.eileen25@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
I say! Let us not forget good old Boadicea.....Eileen
--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> STONE ME you mean she's a bird? A real bird not a geezerbird? Blimey.
> Well that does account for a lot.
> Cheers!
>
> HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course they are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old
Will
> > Stanley found them.
> > I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> > >
> > > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> > >
> > > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> > Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> > (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> > because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> > >
> > > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> > and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> > 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> > >
> > > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> > Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> > don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> > woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> > of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> > telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
> >
> > [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> > Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> > the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> > than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> > background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> > who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> > Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> > take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> > III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> > did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> > of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> > Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> > English.
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> > work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> > generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> > in these discussions.
> >
> > [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> > chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> > too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> > master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> > software, wouldn't it??
> >
> > I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> > tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
> >
> > Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> > close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> > it!
> >
> > But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> > there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> > lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
> >
> > http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> > off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> > days older than Edward of Lancaster.
> >
> > So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> > Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> > did).
> >
> > As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> > [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> > possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> > comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> > though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
> >
> > I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> > with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> > and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> > with Penman's interpretation.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: EileenB <b.eileen25@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
I say! Let us not forget good old Boadicea.....Eileen
--- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
>
> STONE ME you mean she's a bird? A real bird not a geezerbird? Blimey.
> Well that does account for a lot.
> Cheers!
>
> HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course they are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old
Will
> > Stanley found them.
> > I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all. Hilary
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> >
> > Â
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> >
> > "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> > >
> > > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> > >
> > > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> > Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> > (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> > because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> > >
> > > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> > and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> > 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> > >
> > > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> > Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> > don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> > woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> > of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> > telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
> >
> > [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> > Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> > the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> > than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> > background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> > who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> > Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> > take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> > III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> > did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> > of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> > Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> > English.
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> > work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> > generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> > in these discussions.
> >
> > [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> > chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> > too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> > master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> > software, wouldn't it??
> >
> > I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> > tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
> >
> > Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> > close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> > it!
> >
> > But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> > there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> > lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
> >
> > http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> > Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> > off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> > days older than Edward of Lancaster.
> >
> > So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> > Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> > did).
> >
> > As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> > [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> > possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> > comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> > though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
> >
> > I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> > with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> > and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> > with Penman's interpretation.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 13:51:08
Probably anything that she wanted to be called, much like a gorilla ! :-/
G
On Nov 27, 2012, at 8:48 AM, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
> Or "Boudica," as we're now told to call her. I just call her Queen of Iceni; who knows for sure what her nearest and dearest called her. I like "Sweetie Pie" myself.
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <b.eileen25@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
>
> I say! Let us not forget good old Boadicea.....Eileen
>
> --- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
> >
> > STONE ME you mean she's a bird? A real bird not a geezerbird? Blimey.
> > Well that does account for a lot.
> > Cheers!
> >
> > HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course theyý are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old
> Will
> > > Stanley found them.
> > > I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all.ý Hilary
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> > > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> > >
> > >
> > > ý
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
> > >
> > > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> > > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> > >
> > > "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> > > >
> > > > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> > > Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> > > (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> > > because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> > > >
> > > > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> > > and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> > > 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> > > >
> > > > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> > > Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> > > don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> > > woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> > > of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> > > telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
> > >
> > > [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> > > Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> > > the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> > > than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> > > background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> > > who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> > > Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> > > take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> > > III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> > > did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> > > of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> > > Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> > > English.
> > >
> > > Carol wrote:
> > > BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> > > work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> > > generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> > > in these discussions.
> > >
> > > [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> > > chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> > > too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> > > master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> > > software, wouldn't it??
> > >
> > > I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> > > tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
> > >
> > > Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> > > close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> > > it!
> > >
> > > But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> > > there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> > > lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
> > >
> > > http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
> > >
> > > Carol wrote:
> > > Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> > > off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> > > days older than Edward of Lancaster.
> > >
> > > So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> > > Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> > > did).
> > >
> > > As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > > [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> > > possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> > > comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> > > though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
> > >
> > > I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> > > with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> > > and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> > > with Penman's interpretation.
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
G
On Nov 27, 2012, at 8:48 AM, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:
> Or "Boudica," as we're now told to call her. I just call her Queen of Iceni; who knows for sure what her nearest and dearest called her. I like "Sweetie Pie" myself.
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <b.eileen25@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
>
>
>
> I say! Let us not forget good old Boadicea.....Eileen
>
> --- In , "blancsanglier1452" <blancsanglier1452@...> wrote:
> >
> > STONE ME you mean she's a bird? A real bird not a geezerbird? Blimey.
> > Well that does account for a lot.
> > Cheers!
> >
> > HAPPY HISTORIES ALL! :)
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > As we've touched on both the surreal and the Battle of Tewkesbury last night, I thought I'd share a moment linked to both with you. Last year having returned from Australia with a boat (as one does) we decided to go on the river. My husband stuck a pin in a map and we ended up on the river at Tewkesbury. It was a glorious June day with the tower of the Abbey in the background, about a couple of miles up the river, and a little ferry going backwards and forwards taking people to the pub on the countryside bank. I waxed lyrical about how the river must have flowed with blood while hubby took a spanner to the engine to save us having to row back to shore. It was only when I got home and looked it up on a map that I realised it was the crossing at Lode, through which Margaret, Anne and her ladies fled after watching the battle (some say from Holme Hill). Of course theyý are eventually thought to have ended up at Little Malvern Priory where good old
> Will
> > > Stanley found them.
> > > I admit to a soft spot for Margaret. It must have been pretty awful coming from the refinement of the Loire Valley to the dark dabblings of H6's Court. Did any of you see 'The She Wolves'? I think Helen Castor did quite fairly by her. Yes, she instigated some bad things, but so did they all.ý Hilary
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, 26 November 2012, 23:25
> > > Subject: RE: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> > >
> > >
> > > ý
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi, Carol & Blanc Sanglier (aka Ed)!
> > >
> > > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> > > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 5:30 PM
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description
> > > and notes on the death of Edward Prince of Wales
> > >
> > > "blancsanglier1452" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Spoilsport :p he was meant to work it out for himself :)
> > > >
> > > > The van was the biggest battle so would make sense having it facing the
> > > Lanc. van rather the Lanc. left. Not because of Hastings facing Oxford again
> > > (he'd f*cked off to Scotland after Barnet, and so not at Tewkesbury); but
> > > because of Hastings facing the vanguard.
> > > >
> > > > Re: Penman, not many other explanations cover the fact that an experienced
> > > and previously successful soldier (Hastings) was suddenly replaced by a
> > > 19-year old with one battle behind him.
> > > >
> > > > It raises interesting questions of psychology as well as tactics I think.
> > > Anyway I don't think you're a bad battle commander... but maybe you just
> > > don't know your Sunne from your Stars!!! LOL
> > >
> > > Carol responds:
> > >
> > > Oh, believe me; I'd have been a terrible battle commander, but since I'm a
> > > woman, I wouldn't have had the opportunity. (I wonder how much say Margaret
> > > of Anjou had--any at all?). But you're right that I'd have had trouble
> > > telling my Sunnes from my Stars--they didn't have no-line trifocals in 1470.
> > >
> > > [JLT] Josephine Wilkinson makes it clear that as a French noblewoman,
> > > Margaret of Anjou would have expected to play an active role in the rule of
> > > the country, if not actually lead forces in battle. This is quite different
> > > than the English practice, where the queens tended to stay in the
> > > background. In the case of Henry and Margaret, of course, it was Margaret
> > > who proved to be the formidable foe rather than poor Henry. I wonder about
> > > Edward the Prince of Wales, being nipped off in the bud, as it were. Did he
> > > take after Henry (which is what it sounds like in Shakespeare's *Richard
> > > III,* where he is idealized, the better to contrast with nasty Richard), or
> > > did he take after his martial mum?? BTW, the fact that this is also the era
> > > of Joan of Arc suggests that Margaret (or Marguerite, according to
> > > Wilkinson) was not a unique instance of a dynamic female opponent of the
> > > English.
> > >
> > > Carol wrote:
> > > BTW, Johanne is also a woman, which might partially explain why "he" didn't
> > > work it out for "himself." Not to overgeneralize, but we women don't
> > > generally go in for battle tactics, which makes me wonder why I keep joining
> > > in these discussions.
> > >
> > > [JLT] Yes, Carol is right - thanks for mentioning that, Carol. No "Y"
> > > chromosomes here at the Tournier-Smith household! (I have two female dogs,
> > > too.) Yes, like you, Carol, I find these battle tactics very difficult to
> > > master. It would be helpful if we could get a WotR battle simulation
> > > software, wouldn't it??
> > >
> > > I might have been an admiral had I stayed in the Navy (smile), but Naval
> > > tactics are quite different than infantry or cavalry or artillery tactics.
> > >
> > > Doing a quick Google search, I did find at least one WotR game, but how
> > > close it is to reality I can't say. But if Richard isn't in it, I don't want
> > > it!
> > >
> > > But I also found these pages that seem to have tons of info on the WotR;
> > > there are maps and descriptions of every battle, and what I have seen is a
> > > lot clearer than the drawings in Kendall's book. Check it out!
> > >
> > > http://www.warsoftheroses.com/
> > >
> > > Carol wrote:
> > > Richard was actually still 18, not 19. That October birthday throws people
> > > off when they judge his age by the year alone. He was just a year and nine
> > > days older than Edward of Lancaster.
> > >
> > > So do you think that Penman's explanation is right? If so, I wonder whether
> > > Hastings harbored a secret jealousy of Richard (as George almost certainly
> > > did).
> > >
> > > As Kendall said, "It is hard to be the brother of a king."
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> > > [JLT] And even harder to be the brother of a little smarta**! It is just
> > > possible that some people were just hoping Richard would get his
> > > comeuppance, once Edward was gone. (Not sure if that would include Hastings,
> > > though. Don't know enough about him yet to hazard a guess.)
> > >
> > > I like Penman's (and your) explanation, Carol, and it sounds like Ed agrees
> > > with it. I am sure you both know more than I do about this. I will go back
> > > and peruse PMK again and see if I can find any hints as to wehther he agrees
> > > with Penman's interpretation.
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Tewkesbury - Kendall's description and notes on the death of Edw
2012-11-27 15:09:18
Johanne Tournier wrote:
//snip//
"Taking a look back at Barnet - there Richard was also leading the van or
vanguard, but there he was on the *right* side of the Yorkist forces."
"Trying to cast my mind back (my memory is good but it's short, remember!)
to our discussion of a couple of weeks ago about where the van and reserve
forces disposed themselves in these battles, I thought the consensus was
that if Richard led the van, he would have been on the Yorkist right side,
facing the Lancastran left wing. It appears that that is not necessarily the
case, since at Barnet Richard was on the right, but at Tewkesbury he was on
the left, yet in both cases he was leading the van."
I would imagine that the van was placed opposite the enemy's strongest
force, regardless of whether that force was on one's left or right. At
Barnet, the strongest Lancastrian force was on the Yorkist's right,
therefore the Yorkist van was placed opposite it. At Tewksbury, the
strongest Lancastrian forces were on the Yorkist's left, so that's where the
Yorkist van was assigned.
The idea that the van was always on the right in any battle sounds like one
of those military maxims so beloved of semi-competent commanders; ie, a
theory that contains SOME truth, but shouldn't be followed slavishly. If
your opponent's strongest forces face YOUR right, that's where the van
should be; if they face YOUR left, your van should be THERE. Otherwise, the
battle would be not unlike a revolving door, with one side's strongest
forces pushing against the other side's weakest, while the other side does
exactly the same. Could explain some of the WotR's battles, though.
"How did they decide who would go where without tripping over one another or
getting in the line of their own troops' fire? It's not like they had
walkie talkies or cell phones. Help!"
There doesn't seem to have been much maneuvering done during these battles
as best I can tell. I would think things would start off with scouts
informing the commander where the enemy was and how those forces were
distributed. Because of banners, etc it wouldn't be that hard to make out
which of one's opponents were in charge of the "battles" and then the
attacking commander could make his dispositions accordingly. Which is how
Richard, while in charge of the van, ended up on different flanks in
different battles.
Once the fighting had started, again as best I can tell, about the only
maneuvering done would be either by directing a separate group of men, if
one had them, to shore up a weak spot or reinforce a successful attack by
either wing or by the use of cavalry. Any orders from the commander would
have been sent by the commander via someone who was in his immediate
entourage.
I don't think it was until around the period of the Duke of Marlborough that
maneuvering troops in battle became standard; it required a lot of training
to maintain the discipline required to maintain a battalion's cohesion while
under fire and being moved from point A to point B.
Hope this helps,
Doug
//snip//
"Taking a look back at Barnet - there Richard was also leading the van or
vanguard, but there he was on the *right* side of the Yorkist forces."
"Trying to cast my mind back (my memory is good but it's short, remember!)
to our discussion of a couple of weeks ago about where the van and reserve
forces disposed themselves in these battles, I thought the consensus was
that if Richard led the van, he would have been on the Yorkist right side,
facing the Lancastran left wing. It appears that that is not necessarily the
case, since at Barnet Richard was on the right, but at Tewkesbury he was on
the left, yet in both cases he was leading the van."
I would imagine that the van was placed opposite the enemy's strongest
force, regardless of whether that force was on one's left or right. At
Barnet, the strongest Lancastrian force was on the Yorkist's right,
therefore the Yorkist van was placed opposite it. At Tewksbury, the
strongest Lancastrian forces were on the Yorkist's left, so that's where the
Yorkist van was assigned.
The idea that the van was always on the right in any battle sounds like one
of those military maxims so beloved of semi-competent commanders; ie, a
theory that contains SOME truth, but shouldn't be followed slavishly. If
your opponent's strongest forces face YOUR right, that's where the van
should be; if they face YOUR left, your van should be THERE. Otherwise, the
battle would be not unlike a revolving door, with one side's strongest
forces pushing against the other side's weakest, while the other side does
exactly the same. Could explain some of the WotR's battles, though.
"How did they decide who would go where without tripping over one another or
getting in the line of their own troops' fire? It's not like they had
walkie talkies or cell phones. Help!"
There doesn't seem to have been much maneuvering done during these battles
as best I can tell. I would think things would start off with scouts
informing the commander where the enemy was and how those forces were
distributed. Because of banners, etc it wouldn't be that hard to make out
which of one's opponents were in charge of the "battles" and then the
attacking commander could make his dispositions accordingly. Which is how
Richard, while in charge of the van, ended up on different flanks in
different battles.
Once the fighting had started, again as best I can tell, about the only
maneuvering done would be either by directing a separate group of men, if
one had them, to shore up a weak spot or reinforce a successful attack by
either wing or by the use of cavalry. Any orders from the commander would
have been sent by the commander via someone who was in his immediate
entourage.
I don't think it was until around the period of the Duke of Marlborough that
maneuvering troops in battle became standard; it required a lot of training
to maintain the discipline required to maintain a battalion's cohesion while
under fire and being moved from point A to point B.
Hope this helps,
Doug
Richard III on Amazon
As an Amazon Associate, We earn from qualifying purchases.