Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
2012-12-08 01:41:47
You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
"Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings; Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
"For more info, please go to http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
"Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings; Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
"For more info, please go to http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 01:48:00
Wednesday again.
I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
>
> Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
>
> http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
>
> Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings; Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
>
> "For more info, please go to http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
>
I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
>
> Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
>
> http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
>
> Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings; Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
>
> "For more info, please go to http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 01:53:57
CORRECTION: Wrong -- they're showing a different skeleton with a similar spinal deformity. Get me all upset, will they....
--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Wednesday again.
>
> I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Wednesday again.
>
> I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 05:57:54
Weds, it is awesome! Loved the video and the fact that the program so sympathetic to R3.
When are they going to publish the results?
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 7, 2012, at 8:41 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
>
> Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
>
> http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
>
> Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings; Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
>
> "For more info, please go to http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
>
>
When are they going to publish the results?
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 7, 2012, at 8:41 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
>
> Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
>
> http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
>
> Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings; Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
>
> "For more info, please go to http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 10:53:12
Hi, Weds!
Popping briefly out of lurkdom . . .
Thanks for posting the link to the great video! However, it's important to
note that the bones they show are NOT the bones of the Greyfriars Warrior.
The narrator explains that they are the bones of someone that suffered from
the same sort of scoliosis condition as the Warrior.
They say near the end of the video that the bones may be reinterred without
being viewed by the general public. I hope that's not true. While I don't
want people to "gawk," I hope that at least the story of the excavation and
analysis of the bones, as well as the facial reconstruction will be
memorialized in the documentary that's being made - and that that will
include views of the skeleton, which I believe can be done respectfully.
Just as I hope that they will keep perhaps a tooth or two available for
future research, I believe that's all part of the scientific quest for
knowledge of who this person was.
Still working on my paper - wish me luck, eh? I'm determined to finish it
before popping off for my week's vacation in the Sunny South!
Scuttling back into lurkdom . . .
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 9:48 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Wednesday again.
I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE
ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "wednesday_mc"
<wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on:
"King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown.
The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
>
> Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
>
> http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
>
> Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings;
Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but
this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of
Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
>
> "For more info, please go to
http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
>
Popping briefly out of lurkdom . . .
Thanks for posting the link to the great video! However, it's important to
note that the bones they show are NOT the bones of the Greyfriars Warrior.
The narrator explains that they are the bones of someone that suffered from
the same sort of scoliosis condition as the Warrior.
They say near the end of the video that the bones may be reinterred without
being viewed by the general public. I hope that's not true. While I don't
want people to "gawk," I hope that at least the story of the excavation and
analysis of the bones, as well as the facial reconstruction will be
memorialized in the documentary that's being made - and that that will
include views of the skeleton, which I believe can be done respectfully.
Just as I hope that they will keep perhaps a tooth or two available for
future research, I believe that's all part of the scientific quest for
knowledge of who this person was.
Still working on my paper - wish me luck, eh? I'm determined to finish it
before popping off for my week's vacation in the Sunny South!
Scuttling back into lurkdom . . .
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 9:48 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Wednesday again.
I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE
ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "wednesday_mc"
<wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on:
"King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown.
The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
>
> Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
>
> http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
>
> Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings;
Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but
this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of
Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
>
> "For more info, please go to
http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 12:51:52
Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find, I don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them but not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Weds!
>
>
>
> Popping briefly out of lurkdom . . .
>
>
>
> Thanks for posting the link to the great video! However, it's important to
> note that the bones they show are NOT the bones of the Greyfriars Warrior.
> The narrator explains that they are the bones of someone that suffered from
> the same sort of scoliosis condition as the Warrior.
>
>
>
> They say near the end of the video that the bones may be reinterred without
> being viewed by the general public. I hope that's not true. While I don't
> want people to "gawk," I hope that at least the story of the excavation and
> analysis of the bones, as well as the facial reconstruction will be
> memorialized in the documentary that's being made - and that that will
> include views of the skeleton, which I believe can be done respectfully.
> Just as I hope that they will keep perhaps a tooth or two available for
> future research, I believe that's all part of the scientific quest for
> knowledge of who this person was.
>
>
>
> Still working on my paper - wish me luck, eh? I'm determined to finish it
> before popping off for my week's vacation in the Sunny South!
>
>
>
> Scuttling back into lurkdom . . .
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 9:48 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Wednesday again.
>
> I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE
> ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "wednesday_mc"
> <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on:
> "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown.
> The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
> >
> > Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> > "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
> >
> > Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
> >
> > http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
> >
> > Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings;
> Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but
> this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of
> Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
> >
> > "For more info, please go to
> http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find, I don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them but not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Weds!
>
>
>
> Popping briefly out of lurkdom . . .
>
>
>
> Thanks for posting the link to the great video! However, it's important to
> note that the bones they show are NOT the bones of the Greyfriars Warrior.
> The narrator explains that they are the bones of someone that suffered from
> the same sort of scoliosis condition as the Warrior.
>
>
>
> They say near the end of the video that the bones may be reinterred without
> being viewed by the general public. I hope that's not true. While I don't
> want people to "gawk," I hope that at least the story of the excavation and
> analysis of the bones, as well as the facial reconstruction will be
> memorialized in the documentary that's being made - and that that will
> include views of the skeleton, which I believe can be done respectfully.
> Just as I hope that they will keep perhaps a tooth or two available for
> future research, I believe that's all part of the scientific quest for
> knowledge of who this person was.
>
>
>
> Still working on my paper - wish me luck, eh? I'm determined to finish it
> before popping off for my week's vacation in the Sunny South!
>
>
>
> Scuttling back into lurkdom . . .
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 9:48 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Wednesday again.
>
> I need to warn those watching this: THIS VIDEO CONTAINS FOOTAGE OF THE
> ACTUAL SKELETON FOUND IN LEICESTER.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "wednesday_mc"
> <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on:
> "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown.
> The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
> >
> > Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> > "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found"
> >
> > Also interviews Mr. Ibsen, R3's 17th-generation nephew.
> >
> > http://youtu.be/DVBOIXayfxE
> >
> > Synopsis: "History paints him as the most notorious of English Kings;
> Richard III. His remains were lost when he was defeated in a battle, but
> this past summer old bones were recovered under a parking lot in the city of
> Leicester. And some believe they may be the skeleton of King Richard.
> >
> > "For more info, please go to
> http://www.globalnews.ca/old+bones/6442760532/story.html "
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 13:04:06
Hi, Maire -
Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an alert
before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However, I
find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it depends
very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether to
look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial (and
any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
facsimiles.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find, I
don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them but
not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
875> Reply via web post
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
-> Messages in this topic (6)
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
=20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an alert
before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However, I
find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it depends
very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether to
look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial (and
any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
facsimiles.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find, I
don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them but
not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
875> Reply via web post
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
-> Messages in this topic (6)
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
=20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 13:26:09
I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at wakes.
Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>
>
>
> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an alert
> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However, I
> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it depends
> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether to
> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial (and
> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> facsimiles.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>
> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find, I
> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them but
> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 875> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>
>
>
> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an alert
> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However, I
> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it depends
> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether to
> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial (and
> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> facsimiles.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>
> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find, I
> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them but
> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 875> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 14:01:27
Hi, Maire!
There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
in the end.
Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
(with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
All for now, back to Martin Luther!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
wakes.
Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>
>
>
> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
alert
> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
I
> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
depends
> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
to
> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
(and
> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> facsimiles.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>
> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
I
> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
but
> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
>
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 875> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
>
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
in the end.
Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
(with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
All for now, back to Martin Luther!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
wakes.
Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>
>
>
> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
alert
> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
I
> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
depends
> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
to
> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
(and
> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> facsimiles.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>
> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
I
> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
but
> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
>
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 875> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
>
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 14:28:39
Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
for any human remains, not just Richard's.
TTFN <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Hi, Maire!
There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
in the end.
Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
(with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
All for now, back to Martin Luther!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
wakes.
Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>
>
>
> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
alert
> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
I
> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
depends
> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
to
> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
(and
> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> facsimiles.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>
> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
I
> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
but
> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
>
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 875> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
>
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
for any human remains, not just Richard's.
TTFN <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
Tournier
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Hi, Maire!
There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
in the end.
Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
(with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
All for now, back to Martin Luther!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
wakes.
Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>
>
>
> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
alert
> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
I
> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
depends
> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
to
> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
(and
> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> facsimiles.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>
> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
I
> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
but
> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
>
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 875> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
>
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 14:59:44
Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
>
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
>
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
>
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
>
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
>
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
>
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
>
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
>
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 15:02:18
Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>
>
>
> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>
>
>
> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>
>
>
> TTFN <smile>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
> Tournier
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> To:
> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>
>
>
> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>
>
>
> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>
>
>
> TTFN <smile>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne
> Tournier
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> To:
> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 15:03:38
From his portraits it seems his eyes are blue-gray.
Which of the two paintings are more like him do you think?
Ishita
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:59 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Which of the two paintings are more like him do you think?
Ishita
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:59 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 15:36:48
Hi, Maire & Everybody -
I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
(quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
But I digress . . .
I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
>
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
close
> in the end.
>
>
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
>
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
>
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
<smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
>
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
>
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
group
>
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
>
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
>
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
>
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
(quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
But I digress . . .
I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
>
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
close
> in the end.
>
>
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
>
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
>
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
<smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
>
OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
>
ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
group
>
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
>
dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
>
DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
>
zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 15:42:43
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:02 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the
urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead.
She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the
deceased. Maire.
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:02 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the
urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead.
She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the
deceased. Maire.
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 15:49:16
Hi, Ishita
I've really thought about this a lot. I think there's enough evidence, from written descriptions of Richard (such as they are) and the surviving portraits, that the most likely to be really true-to-life is the Society of Antiquaries portrait that seems to be part of a set that includes Edward IV and Henry VII and others in the frames that have arched tops.
That portrait shows Richard with long, medium-to-dark brown hair, blue-grey eyes, and a very pale complexion. You can't tell anything about his height, of course, which is the thing that all the descriptions seem to feature, namely that he was short.
While I prefer the NPG portrait, I think they do resemble one another to a certain extent, but the NPG portrait is a bit more stylized, I think. And someone else would know better than I is his doublet a style that would have been in fashion in the 1480's, or was it updated by the later copyist?
Anyway, I think both portraits have something to offer as far as a depiction of Our Richard. I'm looking forward to having an even more lifelike likeness before too long!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:04 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
From his portraits it seems his eyes are blue-gray.
Which of the two paintings are more like him do you think?
Ishita
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:59 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
I've really thought about this a lot. I think there's enough evidence, from written descriptions of Richard (such as they are) and the surviving portraits, that the most likely to be really true-to-life is the Society of Antiquaries portrait that seems to be part of a set that includes Edward IV and Henry VII and others in the frames that have arched tops.
That portrait shows Richard with long, medium-to-dark brown hair, blue-grey eyes, and a very pale complexion. You can't tell anything about his height, of course, which is the thing that all the descriptions seem to feature, namely that he was short.
While I prefer the NPG portrait, I think they do resemble one another to a certain extent, but the NPG portrait is a bit more stylized, I think. And someone else would know better than I is his doublet a style that would have been in fashion in the 1480's, or was it updated by the later copyist?
Anyway, I think both portraits have something to offer as far as a depiction of Our Richard. I'm looking forward to having an even more lifelike likeness before too long!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:04 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
From his portraits it seems his eyes are blue-gray.
Which of the two paintings are more like him do you think?
Ishita
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:59 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 15:54:55
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 16:03:06
In re: the doublet et al., fashion was in a slight transition in these years, but we think the NPG is within the range of what was worn by men.
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Hi, Ishita
I've really thought about this a lot. I think there's enough evidence, from written descriptions of Richard (such as they are) and the surviving portraits, that the most likely to be really true-to-life is the Society of Antiquaries portrait that seems to be part of a set that includes Edward IV and Henry VII and others in the frames that have arched tops.
That portrait shows Richard with long, medium-to-dark brown hair, blue-grey eyes, and a very pale complexion. You can't tell anything about his height, of course, which is the thing that all the descriptions seem to feature, namely that he was short.
While I prefer the NPG portrait, I think they do resemble one another to a certain extent, but the NPG portrait is a bit more stylized, I think. And someone else would know better than I is his doublet a style that would have been in fashion in the 1480's, or was it updated by the later copyist?
Anyway, I think both portraits have something to offer as far as a depiction of Our Richard. I'm looking forward to having an even more lifelike likeness before too long!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:04 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
From his portraits it seems his eyes are blue-gray.
Which of the two paintings are more like him do you think?
Ishita
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:59 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Judy
Loyaulte me lie
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Hi, Ishita
I've really thought about this a lot. I think there's enough evidence, from written descriptions of Richard (such as they are) and the surviving portraits, that the most likely to be really true-to-life is the Society of Antiquaries portrait that seems to be part of a set that includes Edward IV and Henry VII and others in the frames that have arched tops.
That portrait shows Richard with long, medium-to-dark brown hair, blue-grey eyes, and a very pale complexion. You can't tell anything about his height, of course, which is the thing that all the descriptions seem to feature, namely that he was short.
While I prefer the NPG portrait, I think they do resemble one another to a certain extent, but the NPG portrait is a bit more stylized, I think. And someone else would know better than I is his doublet a style that would have been in fashion in the 1480's, or was it updated by the later copyist?
Anyway, I think both portraits have something to offer as far as a depiction of Our Richard. I'm looking forward to having an even more lifelike likeness before too long!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:04 AM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
From his portraits it seems his eyes are blue-gray.
Which of the two paintings are more like him do you think?
Ishita
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 9:59 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 16:10:44
Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
________________________________
From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>
>
>
> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>
>
>
> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>
>
>
> TTFN <smile>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> Tournier
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>
>
>
> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>
>
>
> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>
>
>
> TTFN <smile>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> Tournier
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 16:18:41
Wednesday wrote:
>
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found" <snip>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Wednesday. I've never heard of "16 x 9" (odd title!), but then, I'm in the U.S.
Only three things I didn't like: They showed a footless skeleton with scoliosis, giving the impression that it's his, they showed a hunchbacked Shakespearean Richard when they talked about his having one shoulder higher than the other, and (not the fault of the producers), they stated that he won't get his teeth back! I hope they were wisdom teeth (or, failing that, twelve-year molars)!
Interesting how everyone treats five hundred-odd years ago as ancient times when in terms even of written history but more especially of prehistory (human existence before the written record), it's really not long ago. 1452-1485 always seems like the day before yesterday to me.
Carol
>
> You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
>
> Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found" <snip>
Carol responds:
Thanks, Wednesday. I've never heard of "16 x 9" (odd title!), but then, I'm in the U.S.
Only three things I didn't like: They showed a footless skeleton with scoliosis, giving the impression that it's his, they showed a hunchbacked Shakespearean Richard when they talked about his having one shoulder higher than the other, and (not the fault of the producers), they stated that he won't get his teeth back! I hope they were wisdom teeth (or, failing that, twelve-year molars)!
Interesting how everyone treats five hundred-odd years ago as ancient times when in terms even of written history but more especially of prehistory (human existence before the written record), it's really not long ago. 1452-1485 always seems like the day before yesterday to me.
Carol
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 16:23:03
Johanne, I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> Hi, Maire & Everybody -
>
> I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
> Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
> before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
> have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
>
> Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
> I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
> Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
> (quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
> as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
> about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
>
> But I digress . . .
>
> I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
> been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
> particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
> some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
> Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
>
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
>
> No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
>
> As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
> or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
> which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
> the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
> nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
> the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
> his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
> tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
> close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
> with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
> <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
> However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
> whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
> an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
> find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
> group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> Hi, Maire & Everybody -
>
> I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
> Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
> before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
> have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
>
> Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
> I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
> Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
> (quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
> as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
> about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
>
> But I digress . . .
>
> I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
> been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
> particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
> some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
> Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
>
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
>
> No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
>
> As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
> or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
> which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
> the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
> nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
> the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
> his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
> tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
> close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
> with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
> <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
> However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
> whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
> an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
> find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
> group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 16:28:47
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To:
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To:
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 16:29:36
Agreed, Marie!
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 11:10 AM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
>
> ________________________________
> From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
> Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> > to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> > same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> > of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> > were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> > not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> > would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> > mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> > for any human remains, not just Richard's.
> >
> >
> >
> > TTFN <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> > Tournier
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
> >
> > or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
> > mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 11:10 AM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
>
> ________________________________
> From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
> Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> > to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> > same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> > of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> > were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> > not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> > would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> > mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> > for any human remains, not just Richard's.
> >
> >
> >
> > TTFN <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> > Tournier
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
> >
> > or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
> > mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 16:35:47
Carol, and the person they showed as Richard is SO old! They gotta stop showing these old and strange looking people as Richard!
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 11:18 AM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> Wednesday wrote:
> >
> > You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
> >
> > Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> > "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found" <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Wednesday. I've never heard of "16 x 9" (odd title!), but then, I'm in the U.S.
>
> Only three things I didn't like: They showed a footless skeleton with scoliosis, giving the impression that it's his, they showed a hunchbacked Shakespearean Richard when they talked about his having one shoulder higher than the other, and (not the fault of the producers), they stated that he won't get his teeth back! I hope they were wisdom teeth (or, failing that, twelve-year molars)!
>
> Interesting how everyone treats five hundred-odd years ago as ancient times when in terms even of written history but more especially of prehistory (human existence before the written record), it's really not long ago. 1452-1485 always seems like the day before yesterday to me.
>
> Carol
>
>
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 11:18 AM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
> Wednesday wrote:
> >
> > You'll like the tone this video (nearly 17 minutes long) sets early on: "King Richard III is killed, but he loses more than his life and his crown. The new rulers also make sure his reputation is trashed."
> >
> > Posted by 16x9 - a Canadian news show. Published on Dec 1, 2012
> > "Old Bones: Possible Richard III remains and DNA link found" <snip>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks, Wednesday. I've never heard of "16 x 9" (odd title!), but then, I'm in the U.S.
>
> Only three things I didn't like: They showed a footless skeleton with scoliosis, giving the impression that it's his, they showed a hunchbacked Shakespearean Richard when they talked about his having one shoulder higher than the other, and (not the fault of the producers), they stated that he won't get his teeth back! I hope they were wisdom teeth (or, failing that, twelve-year molars)!
>
> Interesting how everyone treats five hundred-odd years ago as ancient times when in terms even of written history but more especially of prehistory (human existence before the written record), it's really not long ago. 1452-1485 always seems like the day before yesterday to me.
>
> Carol
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 17:16:33
Right on, Liz!
Perhaps the Queen just doesn't want to re-open an old can of worms. <cough - no pun intended!>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:11 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
________________________________
From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>
>
>
> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>
>
>
> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>
>
>
> TTFN <smile>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> Tournier
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c%0b>
> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Perhaps the Queen just doesn't want to re-open an old can of worms. <cough - no pun intended!>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:11 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
________________________________
From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>
>
>
> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>
>
>
> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>
>
>
> TTFN <smile>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> Tournier
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Maire!
>
> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> in the end.
>
> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>
> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>
> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>
> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> wakes.
>
> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> alert
> > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> I
> > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> depends
> > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> to
> > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> (and
> > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > facsimiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> >
> > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> I
> > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> but
> > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 875> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c%0b>
> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 17:44:13
I've also thought that might be one of the reason. Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Right on, Liz!
>
>
>
> Perhaps the Queen just doesn’t want to re-open an old can of worms. <cough - no pun intended!>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:11 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
>
> ________________________________
> From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> >
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
> Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> > to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> > same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> > of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> > were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> > not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> > would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> > mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> > for any human remains, not just Richard's.
> >
> >
> >
> > TTFN <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> > Tournier
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@ <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
> >
> > or jltournier@ <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c%0b>
> > mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Right on, Liz!
>
>
>
> Perhaps the Queen just doesn’t want to re-open an old can of worms. <cough - no pun intended!>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 12:11 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
>
> ________________________________
> From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@... <mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com> >
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
> Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
> > to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
> > same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
> > of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
> > were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
> > not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
> > would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
> > mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
> > for any human remains, not just Richard's.
> >
> >
> >
> > TTFN <smile>
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
> > Tournier
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
> > in the end.
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@ <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
> >
> > or jltournier@ <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c%0b>
> > mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com%0b>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 17:52:28
Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has always fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for Eygpt. Maire.
Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure. Maire.
--- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanne, I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 8, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Maire & Everybody -
> >
> > I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
> > Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
> > before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
> > have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
> >
> > Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
> > I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
> > Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
> > (quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
> > as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
> > about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
> >
> > But I digress . . .
> >
> > I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
> > been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
> > particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
> > some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
> > Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
> >
> > Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> > family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> > Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> > already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> > consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> > made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
> >
> > No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
> >
> > As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
> > or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
> > which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
> >
> > The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
> > the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
> >
> > Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
> > nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
> > the
> > > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
> > his
> > > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
> > tissues"
> > > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
> > close
> > > in the end.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
> > with
> > > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > > To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > > wakes.
> > >
> > > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Maire -
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
> > <smile>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > > alert
> > > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
> > However,
> > > I
> > > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > > depends
> > > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
> > whether
> > > to
> > > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > > (and
> > > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
> > an
> > > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > > facsimiles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Johanne
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Email - jltournier60@
> > > >
> > > > or jltournier@
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > > >
> > > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > [mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > > mairemulholland
> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > > To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > > "Old
> > > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > > >
> > > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
> > find,
> > > I
> > > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > > but
> > > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > > >
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > > >
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > > 875> Reply via web post
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > > >
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > > >
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
> > group
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > > >
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > > >
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > > >
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > > >
> > > > Recent Activity:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > > >
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > > >
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > > Yahoo! Groups
> > > >
> > > > Switch to:
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Change%20
> > > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <
>
>
>
>
Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure. Maire.
--- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Johanne, I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 8, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi, Maire & Everybody -
> >
> > I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
> > Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
> > before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
> > have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
> >
> > Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
> > I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
> > Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
> > (quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
> > as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
> > about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
> >
> > But I digress . . .
> >
> > I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
> > been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
> > particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
> > some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
> > Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
> >
> > Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> > family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> > Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> > already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> > consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> > made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
> >
> > No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
> >
> > As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
> > or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
> > which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> > Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
> >
> > The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
> > the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
> >
> > Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
> > nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
> > the
> > > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
> > his
> > > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
> > tissues"
> > > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
> > close
> > > in the end.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
> > with
> > > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > > To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > > wakes.
> > >
> > > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Maire -
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
> > <smile>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > > alert
> > > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
> > However,
> > > I
> > > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > > depends
> > > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
> > whether
> > > to
> > > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > > (and
> > > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
> > an
> > > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > > facsimiles.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Johanne
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Email - jltournier60@
> > > >
> > > > or jltournier@
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > > >
> > > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > [mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > > mairemulholland
> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > > To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > > "Old
> > > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > > >
> > > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
> > find,
> > > I
> > > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > > but
> > > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > > >
> > >
> > OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > > >
> > >
> > ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > > 875> Reply via web post
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > > >
> > >
> > %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <mailto:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > > >
> > >
> > III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
> > group
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > > >
> > >
> > dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > > >
> > >
> > DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > > >
> > >
> > zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > > >
> > > > Recent Activity:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > > >
> > >
> > F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > > >
> > >
> > jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > > Yahoo! Groups
> > > >
> > > > Switch to:
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Change%20
> > > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > > <mailto:[email protected]
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <
>
>
>
>
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 17:56:46
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To:
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To:
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 18:03:47
Hi, Maire -
I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
might have had to the British throne?
Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good qualities
as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter than
either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as Edward,
George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have to
be Henry VI??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has always
fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for Eygpt.
Maire.
Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not
only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure.
Maire.
_._,_.___
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
898> Reply via web post
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
-> Messages in this topic (27)
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
=20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
might have had to the British throne?
Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good qualities
as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter than
either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as Edward,
George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have to
be Henry VI??
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has always
fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for Eygpt.
Maire.
Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not
only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure.
Maire.
_._,_.___
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
898> Reply via web post
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
-> Messages in this topic (27)
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
=20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 18:09:21
Hi, Stephen
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 18:22:50
I don't want to get in trouble here but I've always analyzed the Plantagenet brothers as Sonny, Fredo and Michael in the Godfather series. Sonny, the presumptive air, but hotheaded and woman crazy, Fredo the unstable middle brother and Michael, the quiet outsider. And Michael ends up cleaning up all the messes of the other two! Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
>
>
> I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> might have had to the British throne?
>
>
>
> Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good qualities
> as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
>
>
>
> Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter than
> either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as Edward,
> George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have to
> be Henry VI??
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has always
> fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for Eygpt.
> Maire.
>
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not
> only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure.
> Maire.
>
> _._,_.___
>
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
> YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 898> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
> Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (27)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
>
>
> I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> might have had to the British throne?
>
>
>
> Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good qualities
> as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
>
>
>
> Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter than
> either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as Edward,
> George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have to
> be Henry VI??
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has always
> fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for Eygpt.
> Maire.
>
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not
> only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure.
> Maire.
>
> _._,_.___
>
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
> YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 898> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
> Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (27)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 18:32:11
That's another good one! I guess we know which Plantagenet is which! I'd
rather see a dramatization of either of those scenarios than *RIII* in
fascist England! <grin>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:23 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I don't want to get in trouble here but I've always analyzed the Plantagenet
brothers as Sonny, Fredo and Michael in the Godfather series. Sonny, the
presumptive air, but hotheaded and woman crazy, Fredo the unstable middle
brother and Michael, the quiet outsider. And Michael ends up cleaning up all
the messes of the other two! Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
>
>
> I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> might have had to the British throne?
>
>
>
> Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good
qualities
> as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
>
>
>
> Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter
than
> either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as
Edward,
> George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have
to
> be Henry VI??
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has
always
> fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for
Eygpt.
> Maire.
>
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions.
Not
> only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go
figure.
> Maire.
>
> _._,_.___
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
>
YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 898> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
>
Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (27)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
rather see a dramatization of either of those scenarios than *RIII* in
fascist England! <grin>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:23 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I don't want to get in trouble here but I've always analyzed the Plantagenet
brothers as Sonny, Fredo and Michael in the Godfather series. Sonny, the
presumptive air, but hotheaded and woman crazy, Fredo the unstable middle
brother and Michael, the quiet outsider. And Michael ends up cleaning up all
the messes of the other two! Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
>
>
> I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> might have had to the British throne?
>
>
>
> Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good
qualities
> as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
>
>
>
> Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter
than
> either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as
Edward,
> George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have
to
> be Henry VI??
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has
always
> fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for
Eygpt.
> Maire.
>
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions.
Not
> only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go
figure.
> Maire.
>
> _._,_.___
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
>
YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 898> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
>
Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (27)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 18:56:36
I'm totally embarrassed. I spelled "heir" as "air." Airhead Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> That's another good one! I guess we know which Plantagenet is which! I'd
> rather see a dramatization of either of those scenarios than *RIII* in
> fascist England! <grin>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:23 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't want to get in trouble here but I've always analyzed the Plantagenet
> brothers as Sonny, Fredo and Michael in the Godfather series. Sonny, the
> presumptive air, but hotheaded and woman crazy, Fredo the unstable middle
> brother and Michael, the quiet outsider. And Michael ends up cleaning up all
> the messes of the other two! Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> >
> >
> > I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> > might have had to the British throne?
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good
> qualities
> > as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
> >
> >
> >
> > Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter
> than
> > either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as
> Edward,
> > George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> > version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have
> to
> > be Henry VI??
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has
> always
> > fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for
> Eygpt.
> > Maire.
> >
> > Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> > didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions.
> Not
> > only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> > other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go
> figure.
> > Maire.
> >
> > _._,_.___
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
> >
> YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 898> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
> >
> Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (27)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> That's another good one! I guess we know which Plantagenet is which! I'd
> rather see a dramatization of either of those scenarios than *RIII* in
> fascist England! <grin>
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:23 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't want to get in trouble here but I've always analyzed the Plantagenet
> brothers as Sonny, Fredo and Michael in the Godfather series. Sonny, the
> presumptive air, but hotheaded and woman crazy, Fredo the unstable middle
> brother and Michael, the quiet outsider. And Michael ends up cleaning up all
> the messes of the other two! Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire -
> >
> >
> >
> > I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> > might have had to the British throne?
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good
> qualities
> > as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
> >
> >
> >
> > Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter
> than
> > either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as
> Edward,
> > George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> > version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have
> to
> > be Henry VI??
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@
> >
> > or jltournier@
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has
> always
> > fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for
> Eygpt.
> > Maire.
> >
> > Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> > didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions.
> Not
> > only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> > other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go
> figure.
> > Maire.
> >
> > _._,_.___
> >
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
> >
> YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> >
> ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > 898> Reply via web post
> >
> >
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> >
> >
> > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
> >
> Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> >
> DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > -> Messages in this topic (27)
> >
> > Recent Activity:
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
> >
> >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> > Yahoo! Groups
> >
> > Switch to:
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Change%20
> > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Unsubscri
> > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 19:09:14
--- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
Wait. Do we have any evidence that Anne had any miscarriages?
Katy
>
I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
Wait. Do we have any evidence that Anne had any miscarriages?
Katy
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 19:23:37
It's about one of Richard's other nephews - one who we KNOW made it to the continent - and his unconfirmed daughter, who had some very interesting descendants.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Stephen
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Stephen
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 19:33:24
Oh now that sounds fascinating!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 19:23
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
It's about one of Richard's other nephews - one who we KNOW made it to the continent - and his unconfirmed daughter, who had some very interesting descendants.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Stephen
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 19:23
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
It's about one of Richard's other nephews - one who we KNOW made it to the continent - and his unconfirmed daughter, who had some very interesting descendants.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Stephen
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 20:05:57
I hope so - there was a Bulletin piece on him a couple of years ago but I hope to take it further.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Oh now that sounds fascinating!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 19:23
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
It's about one of Richard's other nephews - one who we KNOW made it to the continent - and his unconfirmed daughter, who had some very interesting descendants.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Stephen
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Oh now that sounds fascinating!
________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 19:23
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
It's about one of Richard's other nephews - one who we KNOW made it to the continent - and his unconfirmed daughter, who had some very interesting descendants.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Stephen
My bad! Thanks for correcting that.
What DNA research are you doing or proposing? Something to do with Beaufort? (You may have mentioned this before; if so, I'm sorry I have forgotten it.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:57 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation.
PS The Duke of Beaufort, not Somerset, is in an all-male line from Edward III (if all paternities are correct).
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Hi, Pamela
Hmm . . . not sure, but perhaps they could do so. I know that Y-chromosome DNA doesn't transmit unchanged as much as mtDNA, but the relationship between Richard and the two princes was close both as far as the blood relationship and in time as well. So perhaps it would be possible.
In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who's doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior's teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn't it?
Someone on a previous thread had mentioned that there is a living male-line descendant in the present Duke of Somerset, and his family, but so far he has refused to provide a sample. But if they can get someone in his family to agree, they may be able to match that up (despite the problem of the time lapse possibly giving rise to mutations, I guess).
As far as I am concerned, everyone should be willing to give DNA samples, but I guess a lot of them might turn up skeletons in the closet. <smile>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Pamela Furmidge
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:55 AM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
________________________________
Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> > wrote:
You're probably right, Maire. But on the other hand, there has been an exam
in relatively recent times, before DNA. I wish the Queen could be persuaded
that it's worth examining to find out for *sure* if it's the Princes or not.
Unfortunately, of course, if it is them, people will tend to make
unwarranted assumptions: Princes - buried in the Tower - therefore, murdered
- and therefore murdered by their Wicked Uncle. On the other hand, if it can
be proved that those bones are not those of the Princes, that in itself will
tend to exert an exculpatory influence, I think.
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
Pamela:
If the DNA results from the Greyfriars Warrior match the DNA from Richard's umpteen times grand nephew, it will confirm the Warrior's identity. Will it then be possible to extract other sorts of DNA ( eg from the male side) from Richard's remains to use in relation to the Bones in the Urn?
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 20:17:17
To the living we owe respect, to the dead only truth.
Voltaire
On 8 Dec 2012, at 16:10, liz williams wrote:
> Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
> Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
>> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
>> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
>> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
>> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
>> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
>> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
>> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
>> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>>
>>
>>
>> TTFN <smile>
>>
>>
>>
>> Loyaulte me lie,
>>
>>
>>
>> Johanne
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Johanne L. Tournier
>>
>>
>>
>> Email - jltournier60@...
>>
>> or jltournier@...
>>
>>
>>
>> "With God, all things are possible."
>>
>> - Jesus of Nazareth
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
>> Tournier
>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
>> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, Maire!
>>
>> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
>> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
>> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
>> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
>> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
>> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
>> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
>> in the end.
>>
>> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
>> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
>> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
>> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
>> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
>> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>>
>> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
>> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
>> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
>> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>>
>> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>>
>> Loyaulte me lie,
>>
>> Johanne
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Johanne L. Tournier
>>
>> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>>
>> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>>
>> "With God, all things are possible."
>>
>> - Jesus of Nazareth
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
>> mairemulholland
>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
>> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>>
>> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
>> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
>> wakes.
>>
>> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>>
>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
>> <jltournier60@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, Maire -
>>>
>>> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
>> alert
>>> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
>> I
>>> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
>> depends
>>> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
>>> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
>>> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
>> to
>>> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
>> (and
>>> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
>>> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
>>> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
>>> facsimiles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Loyaulte me lie,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Johanne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> Johanne L. Tournier
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Email - jltournier60@
>>>
>>> or jltournier@
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "With God, all things are possible."
>>>
>>> - Jesus of Nazareth
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
>> mairemulholland
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
>>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
>> "Old
>>> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>>>
>>> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>>>
>>> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
>> I
>>> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
>> but
>>> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
>>>
>> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>>>
>> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
>>> 875> Reply via web post
>>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
>> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
>> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>>>
>> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
>>> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>>>
>> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
>>> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
>>>
>> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
>>> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>>>
>> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>>>
>> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
>>> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>>>
>>> Recent Activity:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
>>>
>> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
>>> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>>>
>> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
>>> Yahoo! Groups
>>>
>>> Switch to:
>>> <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Change%20
>>> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
>>> <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Email%20Delive
>>> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
>>> <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Unsubscri
>>> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
>>> <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
>>> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
>>> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Voltaire
On 8 Dec 2012, at 16:10, liz williams wrote:
> Respect for the dead is all very well but I think that it would be better to correct an age old calumny (or at least find out if it was true.) Who was it who said our good name is all we really have?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 15:02
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
> Johanne: I'm assuming that one of the reasons the Queen will not allow the urn with children's bones to be opened is due to her respect for the dead. She's of an age that truly believed in respecting the resting place of the deceased. Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, again, Maire & Weds -
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, I notice, Weds, that you caught your initial error. One reason I wanted
>> to make sure the correct situation was pointed out was that I did almost the
>> same thing, a few months ago, when there was an article that posted a photo
>> of bones in a display case, without a label. I naturally assumed that they
>> were You Know Whose bones. But that was corrected.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway, the thought occurs to me that at the least it seems a bit ironic, if
>> not contradictory, that the archeological team and other project personnel
>> would allow the use of someone else's skeletal remains for illustration. I
>> mean, if it's sacrilegious or irreverent, it's sacrilegious and irreverent
>> for any human remains, not just Richard's.
>>
>>
>>
>> TTFN <smile>
>>
>>
>>
>> Loyaulte me lie,
>>
>>
>>
>> Johanne
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Johanne L. Tournier
>>
>>
>>
>> Email - jltournier60@...
>>
>> or jltournier@...
>>
>>
>>
>> "With God, all things are possible."
>>
>> - Jesus of Nazareth
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Johanne
>> Tournier
>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 10:01 AM
>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
>> "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi, Maire!
>>
>> There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of the
>> hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
>> beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
>> sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
>> the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about his
>> appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft tissues"
>> would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty close
>> in the end.
>>
>> Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
>> sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
>> posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
>> They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
>> interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
>> (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
>>
>> BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
>> tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
>> been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone with
>> the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
>>
>> All for now, back to Martin Luther!
>>
>> Loyaulte me lie,
>>
>> Johanne
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Johanne L. Tournier
>>
>> Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>
>>
>> or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>
>>
>> "With God, all things are possible."
>>
>> - Jesus of Nazareth
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
>> mairemulholland
>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
>> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>>
>> I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
>> mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
>> wakes.
>>
>> Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
>>
>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
>> <jltournier60@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, Maire -
>>>
>>> Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along. <smile>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
>> alert
>>> before showing anything that some people might not want to watch. However,
>> I
>>> find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
>> depends
>>> very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
>>> being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
>>> upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of whether
>> to
>>> look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
>> (and
>>> any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
>>> with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be an
>>> acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
>>> facsimiles.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Loyaulte me lie,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Johanne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> Johanne L. Tournier
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Email - jltournier60@
>>>
>>> or jltournier@
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "With God, all things are possible."
>>>
>>> - Jesus of Nazareth
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
>> mairemulholland
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
>>> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
>> "Old
>>> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>>>
>>> Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
>>>
>>> Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing find,
>> I
>>> don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
>> but
>>> not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
>>>
>> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>>>
>> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
>>> 875> Reply via web post
>>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
>> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b%3c
>> mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>>>
>> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
>>> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>>>
>>>
>>> <mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>>>
>> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
>>> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
>>>
>> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
>>> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>>>
>> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>>>
>> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
>>> -> Messages in this topic (6)
>>>
>>> Recent Activity:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
>>>
>> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
>>> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>>>
>> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
>>> Yahoo! Groups
>>>
>>> Switch to:
>>> <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Change%20
>>> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
>>> <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Email%20Delive
>>> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
>>> <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Unsubscri
>>> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
>>> <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com
>> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
>> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
>>> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
>>> =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 20:29:27
It sure does! Is the unconfirmed daughter the possible descendant of Richard, or one of the nephews? Tell us a bit more!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
I hope so - there was a Bulletin piece on him a couple of years ago but I hope to take it further.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Oh now that sounds fascinating!
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamhnMXM1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5NzE1Nw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTh0cjZpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTk3MTU3> Yahoo! Groups
Switch to: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=20909/stime=1354997157/nc1=5008814/nc2=4025373/nc3=3848621>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
I hope so - there was a Bulletin piece on him a couple of years ago but I hope to take it further.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Oh now that sounds fascinating!
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamhnMXM1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5NzE1Nw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTh0cjZpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTk3MTU3> Yahoo! Groups
Switch to: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=20909/stime=1354997157/nc1=5008814/nc2=4025373/nc3=3848621>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 20:37:32
I think they will have to show the remains in their documentary, else certain people could say, "We've seen no bones; all we've seen is a hole in the ground in the middle of Leicester and claims from you that you've got him."
As for displaying him before interring him, I can't help feeling he's been "on display" enough after death. I also can't see the current Powers That Be in Britain being willing to do that.
I keep thinking of Evita Peron lying in state, her body disappearing for years afterward, and Juan Peron's bizarre behavior regarding his wife's body.
There's a book idea in there for Richard, but not one I'd care to write. :>\
~Wednesday
As for displaying him before interring him, I can't help feeling he's been "on display" enough after death. I also can't see the current Powers That Be in Britain being willing to do that.
I keep thinking of Evita Peron lying in state, her body disappearing for years afterward, and Juan Peron's bizarre behavior regarding his wife's body.
There's a book idea in there for Richard, but not one I'd care to write. :>\
~Wednesday
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 20:51:05
ROFL, Maire! I read your message, and it didn't even occur to me that "heir"
was spelled funny.
Oy veyizmir!
Johanne
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I'm totally embarrassed. I spelled "heir" as "air." Airhead Maire.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNXN1
bjFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
OTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
904> Reply via web post
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN282
b2k5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2YnB0ODExBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzIwOTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5NwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
-> Messages in this topic (33)
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTJzbWEzB
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkc3FjMDllBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTkyOTk3>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
=20904/stime=1354992997/nc1=5008815/nc2=3848614/nc3=4025304>
was spelled funny.
Oy veyizmir!
Johanne
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:57 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I'm totally embarrassed. I spelled "heir" as "air." Airhead Maire.
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNXN1
bjFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
OTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
904> Reply via web post
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
<mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN282
b2k5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Start a New Topic
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
DMTM2YnB0ODExBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
zZ0lkAzIwOTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5NwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
-> Messages in this topic (33)
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTJzbWEzB
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkc3FjMDllBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTkyOTk3>
Yahoo! Groups
Switch to:
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
=20904/stime=1354992997/nc1=5008815/nc2=3848614/nc3=4025304>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 20:51:43
Woohoo, at last! Something I share with Richard's family.
Unfortunately, it's inbreeding, as my maternal grandparents were first cousins. (It wasn't illegal when they married.)
They had two children -- a son and a daughter. They're okay physically and mentally. Then again, they're Blairs, so...um...I think I'd best stop there. And they're not brilliant. Only eccentric and stubborn.
Darn it.
~Wednesday
--- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
<clipped)
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure. Maire.
Unfortunately, it's inbreeding, as my maternal grandparents were first cousins. (It wasn't illegal when they married.)
They had two children -- a son and a daughter. They're okay physically and mentally. Then again, they're Blairs, so...um...I think I'd best stop there. And they're not brilliant. Only eccentric and stubborn.
Darn it.
~Wednesday
--- In , "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:
<clipped)
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions. Not only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go figure. Maire.
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-08 20:53:11
She would be the daughter of this nephew - Richard de la Pole.
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
It sure does! Is the unconfirmed daughter the possible descendant of Richard, or one of the nephews? Tell us a bit more!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
I hope so - there was a Bulletin piece on him a couple of years ago but I hope to take it further.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Oh now that sounds fascinating!
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamhnMXM1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5NzE1Nw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTh0cjZpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTk3MTU3> Yahoo! Groups
Switch to: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=20909/stime=1354997157/nc1=5008814/nc2=4025373/nc3=3848621>
----- Original Message -----
From: Johanne Tournier
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
It sure does! Is the unconfirmed daughter the possible descendant of Richard, or one of the nephews? Tell us a bit more!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen Lark
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 4:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
I hope so - there was a Bulletin piece on him a couple of years ago but I hope to take it further.
----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Oh now that sounds fascinating!
Recent Activity:
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamhnMXM1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5NzE1Nw--> Visit Your Group
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOTh0cjZpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTk3MTU3> Yahoo! Groups
Switch to: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=20909/stime=1354997157/nc1=5008814/nc2=4025373/nc3=3848621>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 21:47:21
Oy! I'm sooooooooooooo embarrassed! Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> ROFL, Maire! I read your message, and it didn't even occur to me that "heir"
> was spelled funny.
>
>
>
> Oy veyizmir!
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:57 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm totally embarrassed. I spelled "heir" as "air." Airhead Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNXN1
> bjFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> OTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 904> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN282
> b2k5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> DMTM2YnB0ODExBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> zZ0lkAzIwOTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5NwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (33)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTJzbWEzB
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkc3FjMDllBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTkyOTk3>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20904/stime=1354992997/nc1=5008815/nc2=3848614/nc3=4025304>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> ROFL, Maire! I read your message, and it didn't even occur to me that "heir"
> was spelled funny.
>
>
>
> Oy veyizmir!
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:57 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm totally embarrassed. I spelled "heir" as "air." Airhead Maire.
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNXN1
> bjFlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> OTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 904> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN282
> b2k5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Start a New Topic
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> DMTM2YnB0ODExBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> zZ0lkAzIwOTA0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5NwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (33)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZTJzbWEzB
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk5Mjk5Nw--> Visit Your Group
>
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkc3FjMDllBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTkyOTk3>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20904/stime=1354992997/nc1=5008815/nc2=3848614/nc3=4025304>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 23:23:14
You didn't like Michael Caine's Richard, then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSCTOkCOERI
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 18:32
Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
That's another good one! I guess we know which Plantagenet is which! I'd
rather see a dramatization of either of those scenarios than *RIII* in
fascist England! <grin>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:23 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I don't want to get in trouble here but I've always analyzed the Plantagenet
brothers as Sonny, Fredo and Michael in the Godfather series. Sonny, the
presumptive air, but hotheaded and woman crazy, Fredo the unstable middle
brother and Michael, the quiet outsider. And Michael ends up cleaning up all
the messes of the other two! Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
>
>
> I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> might have had to the British throne?
>
>
>
> Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good
qualities
> as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
>
>
>
> Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter
than
> either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as
Edward,
> George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have
to
> be Henry VI??
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has
always
> fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for
Eygpt.
> Maire.
>
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions.
Not
> only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go
figure.
> Maire.
>
> _._,_.___
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
>
YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 898> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
>
Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (27)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSCTOkCOERI
________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 December 2012, 18:32
Subject: RE: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
That's another good one! I guess we know which Plantagenet is which! I'd
rather see a dramatization of either of those scenarios than *RIII* in
fascist England! <grin>
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:23 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
I don't want to get in trouble here but I've always analyzed the Plantagenet
brothers as Sonny, Fredo and Michael in the Godfather series. Sonny, the
presumptive air, but hotheaded and woman crazy, Fredo the unstable middle
brother and Michael, the quiet outsider. And Michael ends up cleaning up all
the messes of the other two! Maire.
--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
<jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
>
>
> I presume because the principals were concerned to enhance any claims they
> might have had to the British throne?
>
>
>
> Well, the thing about in-breeding is that it can enhance the good
qualities
> as well as resulting in some deleterious birth defects and such.
>
>
>
> Obviously Richard's IQ didn't suffer! In fact, he may have been smarter
than
> either Edward or George. I'm thinking of our analogy again of JFK as
Edward,
> George as Teddy and Richard as Bobby. Funny no one has thought to do a
> version of RIII with "Camelot" as a setting. Then I guess Ike would have
to
> be Henry VI??
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 1:52 PM
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
"Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, King Tut's skull is almost cone-like (as in SNL). Akhenaton has
always
> fascinated me. But his push for a single god created quite a mess for
Eygpt.
> Maire.
>
> Way, way too much intermarriage during the War of the Roses. I guess they
> didn't understand too much about the dire consequences of such actions.
Not
> only can it lead to physical problems but mental problems as well. On the
> other hand, Richard, in many ways, seems to have been brilliant. Go
figure.
> Maire.
>
> _._,_.___
>
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMDJt
>
YjhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
>
ODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> 898> Reply via web post
>
>
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
<mailto:mairemulholland@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
>
%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
>
>
> <mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
>
III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXY0
>
Z2ZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Start a New Topic
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
>
DMTM2cmZxaW9vBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
>
zZ0lkAzIwODk4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> -> Messages in this topic (27)
>
> Recent Activity:
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMDNzNmk3B
>
F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk4OTE0OQ--> Visit Your Group
>
>
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYzQzcXA1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
>
jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTg5MTQ5>
> Yahoo! Groups
>
> Switch to:
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Change%20
> Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Email%20Delive
> ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Unsubscri
> be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> <mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> =20898/stime=1354989149/nc1=3848627/nc2=5008814/nc3=4025338>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-08 23:53:29
Katy, well I don't know. I just assumed she must have.......if she did have repeated miscarriages it might be due to interbreeding. Isabella also lost a child and the other had mental disability.....
I also mentioned in a post Anne might have had Ovarian Cyst or Uterine cancer. Leading to her inability to have children and might even be the reason that R3 was asked to stay out of her bed........ What think you guys?
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 2:09 PM, "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
>
> Wait. Do we have any evidence that Anne had any miscarriages?
>
> Katy
>
>
I also mentioned in a post Anne might have had Ovarian Cyst or Uterine cancer. Leading to her inability to have children and might even be the reason that R3 was asked to stay out of her bed........ What think you guys?
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
On Dec 8, 2012, at 2:09 PM, "oregon_katy" <oregon_katy@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
>
> Wait. Do we have any evidence that Anne had any miscarriages?
>
> Katy
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 00:21:19
Johanne wrote:
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
Carol responds:
It sounds as if Wilkinson is influenced by Michael Hicks and his "serial incestor" nonsense. No dispensation was needed for Anne's and Richard's respective relationships to Isabel and George. Anne was *George's* sister-in-law, not Richard's. (Later, Catherine of Aragon married her brother-in-law, the future Henry VIII, in which case a dispensation would certainly have been required.) The first prohibited degree would have been, I suspect, actual brother and sister (or parent and child).
The dispensations that Richard and Anne needed were for being first cousins once removed (which degree that is, I don't know) and for Anne's first marriage to Richard's third cousin. But, again, no dispensation was needed because *his* brother was married to *her* sister.
Have you by any chance checked Wilkinson's credentials? She shouldn't be making mistakes of that magnitude. (Neither, of course, should Hicks.)
Carol
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
Carol responds:
It sounds as if Wilkinson is influenced by Michael Hicks and his "serial incestor" nonsense. No dispensation was needed for Anne's and Richard's respective relationships to Isabel and George. Anne was *George's* sister-in-law, not Richard's. (Later, Catherine of Aragon married her brother-in-law, the future Henry VIII, in which case a dispensation would certainly have been required.) The first prohibited degree would have been, I suspect, actual brother and sister (or parent and child).
The dispensations that Richard and Anne needed were for being first cousins once removed (which degree that is, I don't know) and for Anne's first marriage to Richard's third cousin. But, again, no dispensation was needed because *his* brother was married to *her* sister.
Have you by any chance checked Wilkinson's credentials? She shouldn't be making mistakes of that magnitude. (Neither, of course, should Hicks.)
Carol
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 00:36:35
Ishita wrote:
>
> Johanne, I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
Carol responds:
We don't know whether Anne suffered any miscarriages. There's one small piece of evidence that Richard and Anne had another son (named George) who was born in 1473, but I don't know the full story. (Marie probably does.)
We do know that Richard fathered other children, so any problem was probably on her side. But Anne Neville's father came from a very large family, and Richard's own family was also large (counting the five or six children who seem to have died young). His sister, Margaret, was childless, but another sister, Elizabeth, had about ten children (Karen can probably supply the exact number).
The Beauchamp line was less prolific--four daughters, three by the first wife and one, Anne's mother, Anne Beauchamp, by the second. (Karen will correct me if I'm wrong.) Since Anne Beauchamp herself had only the two daughters and Isabel had only two children who survived, maybe the tendency to have only a few children came from that side of the family. It doesn't appear to be the result of inbreeding, at least not among the Plantagenets.
Carol
>
> Johanne, I was wondering if Anne's miscarriages were due to the inbreeding too.......
Carol responds:
We don't know whether Anne suffered any miscarriages. There's one small piece of evidence that Richard and Anne had another son (named George) who was born in 1473, but I don't know the full story. (Marie probably does.)
We do know that Richard fathered other children, so any problem was probably on her side. But Anne Neville's father came from a very large family, and Richard's own family was also large (counting the five or six children who seem to have died young). His sister, Margaret, was childless, but another sister, Elizabeth, had about ten children (Karen can probably supply the exact number).
The Beauchamp line was less prolific--four daughters, three by the first wife and one, Anne's mother, Anne Beauchamp, by the second. (Karen will correct me if I'm wrong.) Since Anne Beauchamp herself had only the two daughters and Isabel had only two children who survived, maybe the tendency to have only a few children came from that side of the family. It doesn't appear to be the result of inbreeding, at least not among the Plantagenets.
Carol
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-09 00:47:41
Johanne wrpte:
> In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who’s doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior’s teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn’t it? <snip>
Carol responds:
I wonder if that's possible since the mitochondrial DNA are not in the nucleus where the Y chromosome would be found. Maybe that's why they also took a leg bone, unmentioned in the video (which, I hope, will not be so severely damaged and can be put back before the skeleton is buried).
I suppose that I shouldn't feel so sad about the teeth. Not only did I have my wisdom teeth extracted, I also had four bicuspids removed so that I could get braces on my teeth. (Don't know the British term, sorry.) But my missing teeth leave no gap thanks to the braces. Again, I just hope that they were back teeth even though we won't see the actual bones. Surely, though, they'll make a replica of the skull, teeth and all, and of the other bones (including, I hope, the leg bone used for the DNA) since they'll need them to reconstruct his face and body.
I am hoping against hope that the disability will be barely visible, at least when the reconstructed Richard is clothed, simply because it will be harder to fight against the Tudor myth if it isn't. On my honor as a Ricardian, it wouldn't matter to me otherwise.
Carol
> In the video that Wednesday posted a link to, Turi King, who’s doing the DNA analysis, said they took two of the Greyfriars Warrior’s teeth and crushed them to extract the mtDNA. It would be nice if they could use the same samples to extract the Y-chromosome DNA, wouldn’t it? <snip>
Carol responds:
I wonder if that's possible since the mitochondrial DNA are not in the nucleus where the Y chromosome would be found. Maybe that's why they also took a leg bone, unmentioned in the video (which, I hope, will not be so severely damaged and can be put back before the skeleton is buried).
I suppose that I shouldn't feel so sad about the teeth. Not only did I have my wisdom teeth extracted, I also had four bicuspids removed so that I could get braces on my teeth. (Don't know the British term, sorry.) But my missing teeth leave no gap thanks to the braces. Again, I just hope that they were back teeth even though we won't see the actual bones. Surely, though, they'll make a replica of the skull, teeth and all, and of the other bones (including, I hope, the leg bone used for the DNA) since they'll need them to reconstruct his face and body.
I am hoping against hope that the disability will be barely visible, at least when the reconstructed Richard is clothed, simply because it will be harder to fight against the Tudor myth if it isn't. On my honor as a Ricardian, it wouldn't matter to me otherwise.
Carol
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-09 01:08:18
"Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation. <snip>
Carol responds:
The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol
>
> Y- is almost as good as mtDNA and much better than nuclear DNA at present, sadly for my investigation. <snip>
Carol responds:
The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-09 01:34:19
Carol earlier:
>
> The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
>
> http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol again:
Sorry, Stephen. I guess you know that if you're researching Richard de la Pole's possible daughter. Neither mtDNA nor a Y chromosome would work for that relationship. But I thought that the link might be useful for those who still find DNA of any kind confusing.
Nuclear DNA in general is far from worthless; you can discover possible genetic diseases from it, and I think you can determine eye color, hair color, and certain ancestral strains from it. But, yes, it's complex, and research has a long way to go on it.
Carol
>
> The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
>
> http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol again:
Sorry, Stephen. I guess you know that if you're researching Richard de la Pole's possible daughter. Neither mtDNA nor a Y chromosome would work for that relationship. But I thought that the link might be useful for those who still find DNA of any kind confusing.
Nuclear DNA in general is far from worthless; you can discover possible genetic diseases from it, and I think you can determine eye color, hair color, and certain ancestral strains from it. But, yes, it's complex, and research has a long way to go on it.
Carol
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-09 06:42:05
________________________________
Thanks Carol - a good article which clears up a lot of my confusion!
Pamela
Carol earlier:
>
> The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
>
> http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol again:
Sorry, Stephen. I guess you know that if you're researching Richard de la Pole's possible daughter. Neither mtDNA nor a Y chromosome would work for that relationship. But I thought that the link might be useful for those who still find DNA of any kind confusing.
Nuclear DNA in general is far from worthless; you can discover possible genetic diseases from it, and I think you can determine eye color, hair color, and certain ancestral strains from it. But, yes, it's complex, and research has a long way to go on it.
Carol
Thanks Carol - a good article which clears up a lot of my confusion!
Pamela
Carol earlier:
>
> The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
>
> http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol again:
Sorry, Stephen. I guess you know that if you're researching Richard de la Pole's possible daughter. Neither mtDNA nor a Y chromosome would work for that relationship. But I thought that the link might be useful for those who still find DNA of any kind confusing.
Nuclear DNA in general is far from worthless; you can discover possible genetic diseases from it, and I think you can determine eye color, hair color, and certain ancestral strains from it. But, yes, it's complex, and research has a long way to go on it.
Carol
Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
2012-12-09 10:42:01
Oh yes. It isn't like a youth being arrested today for shoplifting/ drink-driving and their DNA matching a murder before their birth, in which case a father-daughter match can be made.
Mixed lines in the past are potentially horrendous at present.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Carol earlier:
>
> The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
>
> http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol again:
Sorry, Stephen. I guess you know that if you're researching Richard de la Pole's possible daughter. Neither mtDNA nor a Y chromosome would work for that relationship. But I thought that the link might be useful for those who still find DNA of any kind confusing.
Nuclear DNA in general is far from worthless; you can discover possible genetic diseases from it, and I think you can determine eye color, hair color, and certain ancestral strains from it. But, yes, it's complex, and research has a long way to go on it.
Carol
Mixed lines in the past are potentially horrendous at present.
----- Original Message -----
From: justcarol67
To:
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: The Bones in Westminster and Richard's DNA
Carol earlier:
>
> The Y chromosome is one component of the nuclear DNA (half of the twenty-third pair).
>
> http://www.orchidcellmark.com/dnatestresources/dna101.html
Carol again:
Sorry, Stephen. I guess you know that if you're researching Richard de la Pole's possible daughter. Neither mtDNA nor a Y chromosome would work for that relationship. But I thought that the link might be useful for those who still find DNA of any kind confusing.
Nuclear DNA in general is far from worthless; you can discover possible genetic diseases from it, and I think you can determine eye color, hair color, and certain ancestral strains from it. But, yes, it's complex, and research has a long way to go on it.
Carol
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 11:20:48
Dear Carol -
Umm . . . Don't make any assumptions about Wilkinson. I have read further
and I am still impressed with the level of detail she brings to a lot of the
material. I am in the middle of Richard's dealings with the Countesses of
Oxford and Warwick right now and am still impressed.
But - it is highly possible that the assumption of close relationship may be
more an extrapolation I've made from what Wilkinson has written than
anything she said (remember, she was most concerned about the
"brother-and-sister-in-law" relationship resulting from George's marriage to
Isabel, and we all know that that was not a "blood relationship." Nowhere
does she use the word "incest."
Bear with me . . . I do intend to come back to deal more fully with
Wilkinson's book in due course, but I really don't have the time right now
that it will require. I've got at least 10 more pages of a 15-page paper to
write, to hand in by this Tuesday, and I haven't done my packing!!!
So, wish me luck!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:21 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne wrote:
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
Carol responds:
It sounds as if Wilkinson is influenced by Michael Hicks and his "serial
incestor" nonsense. No dispensation was needed for Anne's and Richard's
respective relationships to Isabel and George. Anne was *George's*
sister-in-law, not Richard's. (Later, Catherine of Aragon married her
brother-in-law, the future Henry VIII, in which case a dispensation would
certainly have been required.) The first prohibited degree would have been,
I suspect, actual brother and sister (or parent and child).
The dispensations that Richard and Anne needed were for being first cousins
once removed (which degree that is, I don't know) and for Anne's first
marriage to Richard's third cousin. But, again, no dispensation was needed
because *his* brother was married to *her* sister.
Have you by any chance checked Wilkinson's credentials? She shouldn't be
making mistakes of that magnitude. (Neither, of course, should Hicks.)
Carol
Umm . . . Don't make any assumptions about Wilkinson. I have read further
and I am still impressed with the level of detail she brings to a lot of the
material. I am in the middle of Richard's dealings with the Countesses of
Oxford and Warwick right now and am still impressed.
But - it is highly possible that the assumption of close relationship may be
more an extrapolation I've made from what Wilkinson has written than
anything she said (remember, she was most concerned about the
"brother-and-sister-in-law" relationship resulting from George's marriage to
Isabel, and we all know that that was not a "blood relationship." Nowhere
does she use the word "incest."
Bear with me . . . I do intend to come back to deal more fully with
Wilkinson's book in due course, but I really don't have the time right now
that it will require. I've got at least 10 more pages of a 15-page paper to
write, to hand in by this Tuesday, and I haven't done my packing!!!
So, wish me luck!
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:21 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
Johanne wrote:
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
Carol responds:
It sounds as if Wilkinson is influenced by Michael Hicks and his "serial
incestor" nonsense. No dispensation was needed for Anne's and Richard's
respective relationships to Isabel and George. Anne was *George's*
sister-in-law, not Richard's. (Later, Catherine of Aragon married her
brother-in-law, the future Henry VIII, in which case a dispensation would
certainly have been required.) The first prohibited degree would have been,
I suspect, actual brother and sister (or parent and child).
The dispensations that Richard and Anne needed were for being first cousins
once removed (which degree that is, I don't know) and for Anne's first
marriage to Richard's third cousin. But, again, no dispensation was needed
because *his* brother was married to *her* sister.
Have you by any chance checked Wilkinson's credentials? She shouldn't be
making mistakes of that magnitude. (Neither, of course, should Hicks.)
Carol
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 19:23:06
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
>
Ho God!
I don't know how to kill this one off. I'm afraid Michael Hicks' interpretation of the affinity impediment (and his muddled and misleading account of the consanguinity in his BBC History Mag article) has taken on a life of its own. Anyone who wants the facts can refer to my article in the Ricardian, or Annette Carson's summary of the same in The Maligned king.
Yes, they were too closely related for it to be wise from a breeding point of view, but the impediments were:
1) Consanguinity in the third and fourt degrees (this is ONE relationship - common descent from Edmund of Langley & his missus);
2) Consanguinuity in the second and third degrees (again, ONE relationship - common descent frrom the Earl of Westmorland & missus)
3) Affinity in 3rd and 4th degrees (ONE distant in-law relationship, Richard being a cousin of Edward of Lancaster).
GEORGE AND ISABEL'S MARRIAGE DIDN'T CREATE AN IMPEDIMENT TO RICHARD MARRYING ANNE - NOT AT ALL.
You can look back over earlier posts to get more detail on this. Now got to go and make gravy.
Best,
Marie
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
>
Ho God!
I don't know how to kill this one off. I'm afraid Michael Hicks' interpretation of the affinity impediment (and his muddled and misleading account of the consanguinity in his BBC History Mag article) has taken on a life of its own. Anyone who wants the facts can refer to my article in the Ricardian, or Annette Carson's summary of the same in The Maligned king.
Yes, they were too closely related for it to be wise from a breeding point of view, but the impediments were:
1) Consanguinity in the third and fourt degrees (this is ONE relationship - common descent from Edmund of Langley & his missus);
2) Consanguinuity in the second and third degrees (again, ONE relationship - common descent frrom the Earl of Westmorland & missus)
3) Affinity in 3rd and 4th degrees (ONE distant in-law relationship, Richard being a cousin of Edward of Lancaster).
GEORGE AND ISABEL'S MARRIAGE DIDN'T CREATE AN IMPEDIMENT TO RICHARD MARRYING ANNE - NOT AT ALL.
You can look back over earlier posts to get more detail on this. Now got to go and make gravy.
Best,
Marie
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 19:57:53
Hi, Marie -
I will go back and check Wilkinson, as I mentioned to Carol, when I have
more time to do what Wilkinson said justice. Because I may have
misinterpreted what she said. But I really can't take the time to do it now.
My thinking was that, regardless of the dispensation situation, what they
had to have and what they didn't have to have, they actually were *cousins,*
and if there were some other blood relationships among their ancestors, that
could have resulted in genetic problems that would have been passed on to
their progeny. Regardless, as I said to Carol, no one (at least neither
Wilkinson nor myself, as I interpret it) was suggesting that Richard or Anne
were committing incest. (And I certainly don't think he was interested in
Elizabeth of York.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mariewalsh2003
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 3:23 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further
in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne
were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy
vey!
>
Ho God!
I don't know how to kill this one off. I'm afraid Michael Hicks'
interpretation of the affinity impediment (and his muddled and misleading
account of the consanguinity in his BBC History Mag article) has taken on a
life of its own. Anyone who wants the facts can refer to my article in the
Ricardian, or Annette Carson's summary of the same in The Maligned king.
Yes, they were too closely related for it to be wise from a breeding point
of view, but the impediments were:
1) Consanguinity in the third and fourt degrees (this is ONE relationship -
common descent from Edmund of Langley & his missus);
2) Consanguinuity in the second and third degrees (again, ONE relationship -
common descent frrom the Earl of Westmorland & missus)
3) Affinity in 3rd and 4th degrees (ONE distant in-law relationship, Richard
being a cousin of Edward of Lancaster).
GEORGE AND ISABEL'S MARRIAGE DIDN'T CREATE AN IMPEDIMENT TO RICHARD MARRYING
ANNE - NOT AT ALL.
You can look back over earlier posts to get more detail on this. Now got to
go and make gravy.
Best,
Marie
I will go back and check Wilkinson, as I mentioned to Carol, when I have
more time to do what Wilkinson said justice. Because I may have
misinterpreted what she said. But I really can't take the time to do it now.
My thinking was that, regardless of the dispensation situation, what they
had to have and what they didn't have to have, they actually were *cousins,*
and if there were some other blood relationships among their ancestors, that
could have resulted in genetic problems that would have been passed on to
their progeny. Regardless, as I said to Carol, no one (at least neither
Wilkinson nor myself, as I interpret it) was suggesting that Richard or Anne
were committing incest. (And I certainly don't think he was interested in
Elizabeth of York.)
Loyaulte me lie,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mariewalsh2003
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 3:23 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further
in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne
were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy
vey!
>
Ho God!
I don't know how to kill this one off. I'm afraid Michael Hicks'
interpretation of the affinity impediment (and his muddled and misleading
account of the consanguinity in his BBC History Mag article) has taken on a
life of its own. Anyone who wants the facts can refer to my article in the
Ricardian, or Annette Carson's summary of the same in The Maligned king.
Yes, they were too closely related for it to be wise from a breeding point
of view, but the impediments were:
1) Consanguinity in the third and fourt degrees (this is ONE relationship -
common descent from Edmund of Langley & his missus);
2) Consanguinuity in the second and third degrees (again, ONE relationship -
common descent frrom the Earl of Westmorland & missus)
3) Affinity in 3rd and 4th degrees (ONE distant in-law relationship, Richard
being a cousin of Edward of Lancaster).
GEORGE AND ISABEL'S MARRIAGE DIDN'T CREATE AN IMPEDIMENT TO RICHARD MARRYING
ANNE - NOT AT ALL.
You can look back over earlier posts to get more detail on this. Now got to
go and make gravy.
Best,
Marie
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 22:03:22
--- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Katy, well I don't know. I just assumed she must have.......if she did have repeated miscarriages it might be due to interbreeding. Isabella also lost a child and the other had mental disability.....
Marie replies:
Isabel's dead baby was born on board ship in bad weather. Her last child died at aged two or three months, but it seems from the evidence that he was probably premature.
Her son Warwick was born with no mental disability, the evidence is quite clear - just left vulnerable and ignorant after years in the Tower during Henry VII's reign.
>
> Katy, well I don't know. I just assumed she must have.......if she did have repeated miscarriages it might be due to interbreeding. Isabella also lost a child and the other had mental disability.....
Marie replies:
Isabel's dead baby was born on board ship in bad weather. Her last child died at aged two or three months, but it seems from the evidence that he was probably premature.
Her son Warwick was born with no mental disability, the evidence is quite clear - just left vulnerable and ignorant after years in the Tower during Henry VII's reign.
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 22:08:16
>
> Carol responds:
>
> We don't know whether Anne suffered any miscarriages. There's one small piece of evidence that Richard and Anne had another son (named George) who was born in 1473, but I don't know the full story. (Marie probably does.)
Marie replies:
Yes, I have seen the evidence. The Tewkesbury Abbey Chronicle names just one child of Richard, born in 1476, and it names him George. According to Hicks the name was filled in later into a blank space, and I checked the manuscript copy he used, which he says is the earliest, and his is definitely right about that. The age given for Edward of Middleham by Rows tallies with a birth year of 1476, so I think it is definitely Edward who was being referred to by the Tewkesbury monks.
> Carol responds:
>
> We don't know whether Anne suffered any miscarriages. There's one small piece of evidence that Richard and Anne had another son (named George) who was born in 1473, but I don't know the full story. (Marie probably does.)
Marie replies:
Yes, I have seen the evidence. The Tewkesbury Abbey Chronicle names just one child of Richard, born in 1476, and it names him George. According to Hicks the name was filled in later into a blank space, and I checked the manuscript copy he used, which he says is the earliest, and his is definitely right about that. The age given for Edward of Middleham by Rows tallies with a birth year of 1476, so I think it is definitely Edward who was being referred to by the Tewkesbury monks.
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-09 22:43:58
--- In , Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Marie -
>
> I will go back and check Wilkinson, as I mentioned to Carol, when I have
> more time to do what Wilkinson said justice. Because I may have
> misinterpreted what she said. But I really can't take the time to do it now.
>
>
>
> My thinking was that, regardless of the dispensation situation, what they
> had to have and what they didn't have to have, they actually were *cousins,*
> and if there were some other blood relationships among their ancestors, that
> could have resulted in genetic problems that would have been passed on to
> their progeny. Regardless, as I said to Carol, no one (at least neither
> Wilkinson nor myself, as I interpret it) was suggesting that Richard or Anne
> were committing incest. (And I certainly don't think he was interested in
> Elizabeth of York.)
Marie replies:
Only Hicks has been crazy enough to use the incest word, I think. But if Wilkinson is talking about prohibited degrees she is talking about canon law prohibitions to the marriage, not relationship per se, and of course George's marriage to Isabel didn't make Richard and Anne any more genetically related to each other than they already had been.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mariewalsh2003
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 3:23 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> > family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further
> in
> > Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne
> were
> > already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> > consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> > made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy
> vey!
> >
>
> Ho God!
> I don't know how to kill this one off. I'm afraid Michael Hicks'
> interpretation of the affinity impediment (and his muddled and misleading
> account of the consanguinity in his BBC History Mag article) has taken on a
> life of its own. Anyone who wants the facts can refer to my article in the
> Ricardian, or Annette Carson's summary of the same in The Maligned king.
> Yes, they were too closely related for it to be wise from a breeding point
> of view, but the impediments were:
> 1) Consanguinity in the third and fourt degrees (this is ONE relationship -
> common descent from Edmund of Langley & his missus);
> 2) Consanguinuity in the second and third degrees (again, ONE relationship -
> common descent frrom the Earl of Westmorland & missus)
> 3) Affinity in 3rd and 4th degrees (ONE distant in-law relationship, Richard
> being a cousin of Edward of Lancaster).
> GEORGE AND ISABEL'S MARRIAGE DIDN'T CREATE AN IMPEDIMENT TO RICHARD MARRYING
> ANNE - NOT AT ALL.
> You can look back over earlier posts to get more detail on this. Now got to
> go and make gravy.
> Best,
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, Marie -
>
> I will go back and check Wilkinson, as I mentioned to Carol, when I have
> more time to do what Wilkinson said justice. Because I may have
> misinterpreted what she said. But I really can't take the time to do it now.
>
>
>
> My thinking was that, regardless of the dispensation situation, what they
> had to have and what they didn't have to have, they actually were *cousins,*
> and if there were some other blood relationships among their ancestors, that
> could have resulted in genetic problems that would have been passed on to
> their progeny. Regardless, as I said to Carol, no one (at least neither
> Wilkinson nor myself, as I interpret it) was suggesting that Richard or Anne
> were committing incest. (And I certainly don't think he was interested in
> Elizabeth of York.)
Marie replies:
Only Hicks has been crazy enough to use the incest word, I think. But if Wilkinson is talking about prohibited degrees she is talking about canon law prohibitions to the marriage, not relationship per se, and of course George's marriage to Isabel didn't make Richard and Anne any more genetically related to each other than they already had been.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mariewalsh2003
> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2012 3:23 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> > family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further
> in
> > Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne
> were
> > already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> > consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> > made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy
> vey!
> >
>
> Ho God!
> I don't know how to kill this one off. I'm afraid Michael Hicks'
> interpretation of the affinity impediment (and his muddled and misleading
> account of the consanguinity in his BBC History Mag article) has taken on a
> life of its own. Anyone who wants the facts can refer to my article in the
> Ricardian, or Annette Carson's summary of the same in The Maligned king.
> Yes, they were too closely related for it to be wise from a breeding point
> of view, but the impediments were:
> 1) Consanguinity in the third and fourt degrees (this is ONE relationship -
> common descent from Edmund of Langley & his missus);
> 2) Consanguinuity in the second and third degrees (again, ONE relationship -
> common descent frrom the Earl of Westmorland & missus)
> 3) Affinity in 3rd and 4th degrees (ONE distant in-law relationship, Richard
> being a cousin of Edward of Lancaster).
> GEORGE AND ISABEL'S MARRIAGE DIDN'T CREATE AN IMPEDIMENT TO RICHARD MARRYING
> ANNE - NOT AT ALL.
> You can look back over earlier posts to get more detail on this. Now got to
> go and make gravy.
> Best,
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-10 00:41:53
Looking forward to your blog! Hope you take a look at Kings college Camb when you cross the pond
G
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> Hi, Maire & Everybody -
>
> I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
> Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
> before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
> have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
>
> Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
> I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
> Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
> (quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
> as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
> about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
>
> But I digress . . .
>
> I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
> been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
> particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
> some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
> Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
>
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
>
> No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
>
> As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
> or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
> which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
> the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
> nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
> the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
> his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
> tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
> close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
> with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
> <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
> However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
> whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
> an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
> find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
> group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
G
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 8, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> Hi, Maire & Everybody -
>
> I'm setting up a blog to deal with all things RIII that I'm calling "Whole
> Hog: the Blog for All Things Richard III" - hopefully I'll get it going
> before too long. I'm going to school next term full time, though, so I may
> have even less time than I have now! Bummer!
>
> Can you tell I've been having a hard time staying away from this Forum??LOL!
> I'd much rather be talking about anything about Richard! Although Martin
> Luther is interesting, I find his views about the Jews to be hard to take
> (quite hateful, actually). The only thing - there were others he was almost
> as hateful about - the Peasants in the Peasants war, and the Pope, to name
> about 25,000.) But the consequences for the Jews were dire, of course.
>
> But I digress . . .
>
> I haven't seen Tut's reconstruction, which is funny, because I've always
> been interested in Ancient Egypt, and the period of the Pharaoh Akhenaton in
> particular. Tut's mummy looks like his cranium was elongated, sort of like
> some of the Ancient Mayan skulls. This may have happened in the case of Tut,
> Akhenaten and their relatives because of all the in-breeding, I would think.
>
> Speaking of in-breeding, that may have been a problem with Richard and his
> family, dispensations from the Pope notwithstanding. Just reading further in
> Josephine Wilkinson last night, and she indicates that Richard and Anne were
> already related within the 2nd., 3rd. and 4th. prohibited degrees of
> consanguinity, even before considering George and Isabel's marriage, which
> made them "brother and sister-in-law" - the 1st. prohibited degree. Oy vey!
>
> No wonder they called the WotR "the Cousins' War."
>
> As I see Ishita already commented, yes, usually Richard's eyes are depicted
> or described as blue/grey. I think that's also in contrast with Edward's
> which I believe are sort of a golden brown.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 11:00 AM
> To:
> Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old
> Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
>
> Oh, you lucky stiff, you! I'm so jealous! We'll need lots of reports.
>
> The one reconstruction I keep thinking about is King Tut - I think that was
> the pharoah. He had a weird-shaped head as I remember, lol.
>
> Do we have any idea of Richard's eye color? In most of the portraits, his
> nose is quite strong - unlike his brother's little snout. Maire.
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> <jltournier60@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maire!
> >
> >
> >
> > There is always some leeway on the details. For instance, unless some of
> the
> > hair of the Greyfriars Warrior survived, the recreation of the hair and
> > beard (if any) would be a matter of judgement and in the discretion of the
> > sculptor. In Richard's case, I am sure they will use the most reliable of
> > the surviving portraits and statements of individuals at the time about
> his
> > appearance. Eye color and some details of the nose and other "soft
> tissues"
> > would not necessarily be 100% as he was in life, but should be pretty
> close
> > in the end.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take a look at some of the "Ancient Autopsy" (Prehistoric Autopsy?) - not
> > sure of the exact name - I know Dave Rayner (aka "The Black Prussian")
> > posted links to 3 of the shows here. I think it was in the mtDNA thread.
> > They did a reconstruction of Lucy, a Neandertal, and Homo Erectus - very
> > interesting! And helpful to show the process they will be going through
> > (with modifications) for the Greyfriars Warrior remains.
> >
> >
> >
> > BTW, my other big news, while I'm here, is that I'm confirmed to go on the
> > tour with Sharon Kay Penman!!!! I've never been so excited!!!! I haven't
> > been to Britain since 1973, so I'm excited about going back, let alone
> with
> > the chance to indulge in all things Ricardian!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > All for now, back to Martin Luther!
> >
> >
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> >
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> >
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> >
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> mairemulholland
> > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 9:26 AM
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> "Old
> > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree about "self-appointed censors"! This is just a personal quirk of
> > mine. Strange, because as a Catholic, I've seen many bodies laid out at
> > wakes.
> >
> > Are these reconstructions accurate? Maire.
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Johanne Tournier
> > <jltournier60@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, Maire -
> > >
> > > Thanks for your good wishes! So far so good - it is coming along.
> <smile>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding seeing Richard's remains - I think maybe they should give an
> > alert
> > > before showing anything that some people might not want to watch.
> However,
> > I
> > > find the thought more poignant than sad. I guess my feeling about it
> > depends
> > > very much on how it is handled. But I don't like the idea of some people
> > > being self-appointed censors, when they have had the privilege of gazing
> > > upon those remains. I think at least we should have the choice of
> whether
> > to
> > > look or not. And, as I said, I'm really interested in seeing the facial
> > (and
> > > any other reconstruction) and to do that, they are going to have to work
> > > with either the bones, casts, or 3D digital images. The latter might be
> an
> > > acceptable solution, rather than showing us the actual bones, work with
> > > facsimiles.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Loyaulte me lie,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Johanne
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > Johanne L. Tournier
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Email - jltournier60@
> > >
> > > or jltournier@
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "With God, all things are possible."
> > >
> > > - Jesus of Nazareth
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > [mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
> > mairemulholland
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2012 8:52 AM
> > > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video:
> > "Old
> > > Bones - Possible R3 Remains..."
> > >
> > > Good luck with your paper, Johanne.
> > >
> > > Personally, while I'm dying to see a documentary about this amazing
> find,
> > I
> > > don't think I want to see Richard's remains. I'd like to read about them
> > but
> > > not see them. I just think it would hurt. Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxdm92
> > >
> >
> OW9wBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1zZ0lkAzIw
> > >
> >
> ODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--?act=reply&messageNum=20
> > > 875> Reply via web post
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society
> <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > <mailto:mairemulholland@?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20III%20Society%0b>
> > >
> >
> %20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%20%22Old%20Bo
> > > nes%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to sender
> > >
> > >
> > > <mailto:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Re%3A%20%5BRichard%20
> > >
> >
> III%20Society%20Forum%5D%20Re%3A%20Canadian%2016x9%20News%20Show%20Video%3A%
> > > 20%22Old%20Bones%20-%20Possible%20R3%20Remains%2E%2E%2E%22> Reply to
> group
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlc29s
> > >
> >
> dTFtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIE
> > > c2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Start a New Topic
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/20868;_ylc=X3o
> > >
> >
> DMTM2NTRhYWR2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBG1
> > >
> >
> zZ0lkAzIwODc1BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMwR0cGNJZAMyMDg2OA-
> > > -> Messages in this topic (6)
> > >
> > > Recent Activity:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOHNwN3VzB
> > >
> >
> F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA
> > > 3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NDk3MTExMw--> Visit Your Group
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdGRtcmFyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1M
> > >
> >
> jc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU0OTcxMTEz>
> > > Yahoo! Groups
> > >
> > > Switch to:
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Change%20
> > > Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only,
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Email%20Delive
> > > ry:%20Digest> Daily Digest .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Unsubscri
> > > be> Unsubscribe . <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use .
> > > <mailto:[email protected]
> <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20r
> > > edesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId
> > > =20875/stime=1354971113/nc1=4025338/nc2=5008814/nc3=3848614>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-10 00:52:37
Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> Dear Carol -
>
> Umm . . . Don't make any assumptions about Wilkinson. I have read further and I am still impressed with the level of detail she brings to a lot of the material. I am in the middle of Richard's dealings with the Countesses of Oxford and Warwick right now and am still impressed.
>
> But - it is highly possible that the assumption of close relationship may be more an extrapolation I've made from what Wilkinson has written than anything she said (remember, she was most concerned about the "brother-and-sister-in-law" relationship resulting from George's marriage to Isabel, and we all know that that was not a "blood relationship." Nowhere does she use the word "incest."
>
Carol responds:
But the thing is, they *weren't* brother- and sister-in-law. It's not as if George had died and Richard had decided to marry Isabel rather than Anne. (I don't even know my brother-in-law's brothers. They're no relation to me, legal or otherwise, and the medieval church saw no relationship there, either.
The "incest" idea comes from Hicks, who also thought, wrongly, that such marriages required a dispensation. I'm guessing that Wilkinson got the idea from him. You might want to check Wilkinson's sources to see if his so-called biography of Anne Neville is among them.
Carol
>
> Dear Carol -
>
> Umm . . . Don't make any assumptions about Wilkinson. I have read further and I am still impressed with the level of detail she brings to a lot of the material. I am in the middle of Richard's dealings with the Countesses of Oxford and Warwick right now and am still impressed.
>
> But - it is highly possible that the assumption of close relationship may be more an extrapolation I've made from what Wilkinson has written than anything she said (remember, she was most concerned about the "brother-and-sister-in-law" relationship resulting from George's marriage to Isabel, and we all know that that was not a "blood relationship." Nowhere does she use the word "incest."
>
Carol responds:
But the thing is, they *weren't* brother- and sister-in-law. It's not as if George had died and Richard had decided to marry Isabel rather than Anne. (I don't even know my brother-in-law's brothers. They're no relation to me, legal or otherwise, and the medieval church saw no relationship there, either.
The "incest" idea comes from Hicks, who also thought, wrongly, that such marriages required a dispensation. I'm guessing that Wilkinson got the idea from him. You might want to check Wilkinson's sources to see if his so-called biography of Anne Neville is among them.
Carol
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-10 17:16:57
Marie wrote:
> Yes, I have seen the evidence. The Tewkesbury Abbey Chronicle names just one child of Richard, born in 1476, and it names him George. According to Hicks the name was filled in later into a blank space, and I checked the manuscript copy he used, which he says is the earliest, and his is definitely right about that. The age given for Edward of Middleham by Rows tallies with a birth year of 1476, so I think it is definitely Edward who was being referred to by the Tewkesbury monks.
Carol responds:
Marie, do you know where the widespread idea that Edward of Middleham was born in 1473 came from?
Carol
> Yes, I have seen the evidence. The Tewkesbury Abbey Chronicle names just one child of Richard, born in 1476, and it names him George. According to Hicks the name was filled in later into a blank space, and I checked the manuscript copy he used, which he says is the earliest, and his is definitely right about that. The age given for Edward of Middleham by Rows tallies with a birth year of 1476, so I think it is definitely Edward who was being referred to by the Tewkesbury monks.
Carol responds:
Marie, do you know where the widespread idea that Edward of Middleham was born in 1473 came from?
Carol
Re: Canadian 16x9 News Show Video: "Old Bones - Possible R3 Remains.
2012-12-10 17:36:04
> > if she did have repeated miscarriages it might be due to interbreeding.
Isabella also lost a child and the other had mental disability.....
Against that some statistics which might have some relevance (or none at all).
The mortality rate for children was high in the medieval age. In England it is believed to have been approximately 25% within the first year (I assume that the prospects of a successfull birth weren´t much better).
In the 1800´s there were many still birth´s almost 50% . The mortality rate for infants is difficult to track down but I found several references that approximately 33% died before their tenth birthday.
From 1915 onwards the mortality rate for small children was less then 10% because of medical achievments and healthier mothers.
In the 1980´s the rates for misscariages within the first weeks lay at 20 %.
The dates given refer either to britain or to europe in general. Sometimes they vary depending on which sources they are based on but I think those give a good overlook. I´ve got mine from my material which I brought together during my Victorian census and geneaology courses (went for population statistics).
Hope this is of interest to you.
Marion Z
--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Katy, well I don't know. I just assumed she must have.......if she did have repeated miscarriages it might be due to interbreeding. Isabella also lost a child and the other had mental disability.....
>
> Marie replies:
> Isabel's dead baby was born on board ship in bad weather. Her last child died at aged two or three months, but it seems from the evidence that he was probably premature.
> Her son Warwick was born with no mental disability, the evidence is quite clear - just left vulnerable and ignorant after years in the Tower during Henry VII's reign.
>
Isabella also lost a child and the other had mental disability.....
Against that some statistics which might have some relevance (or none at all).
The mortality rate for children was high in the medieval age. In England it is believed to have been approximately 25% within the first year (I assume that the prospects of a successfull birth weren´t much better).
In the 1800´s there were many still birth´s almost 50% . The mortality rate for infants is difficult to track down but I found several references that approximately 33% died before their tenth birthday.
From 1915 onwards the mortality rate for small children was less then 10% because of medical achievments and healthier mothers.
In the 1980´s the rates for misscariages within the first weeks lay at 20 %.
The dates given refer either to britain or to europe in general. Sometimes they vary depending on which sources they are based on but I think those give a good overlook. I´ve got mine from my material which I brought together during my Victorian census and geneaology courses (went for population statistics).
Hope this is of interest to you.
Marion Z
--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@> wrote:
> >
> > Katy, well I don't know. I just assumed she must have.......if she did have repeated miscarriages it might be due to interbreeding. Isabella also lost a child and the other had mental disability.....
>
> Marie replies:
> Isabel's dead baby was born on board ship in bad weather. Her last child died at aged two or three months, but it seems from the evidence that he was probably premature.
> Her son Warwick was born with no mental disability, the evidence is quite clear - just left vulnerable and ignorant after years in the Tower during Henry VII's reign.
>
Richard III on Amazon
As an Amazon Associate, We earn from qualifying purchases.