ARTICLE: Winter of discontent as we await the truth

Nice article published today. Figures it's in the Yorkshire post. Richard liveth yet.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/health-and-family/winter-of-discontent-as-we-await-the-truth-1-5192836

I am so afraid it is not going to be Richard.....


--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Nice article published today. Figures it's in the Yorkshire post. Richard liveth yet.
>
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/health-and-family/winter-of-discontent-as-we-await-the-truth-1-5192836
>

Don't worry, of course it's him.
 
Liz


________________________________
From: bandyoi <bandyoi@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 10 December 2012, 19:52
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Winter of discontent as we await the truth

 

I am so afraid it is not going to be Richard.....

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Nice article published today. Figures it's in the Yorkshire post. Richard liveth yet.
>
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/health-and-family/winter-of-discontent-as-we-await-the-truth-1-5192836
>

It's him.

Enough time has passed that they should have some of the DNA results back. From the continued happy optimism of those in the know, I suspect the lab has already matched some markers with Mr. Ibsen.

I doubt there would be so much continued glee if they'd been told, "Nothing matches so far, so the Leicester Warrior is just a warrior and not the king."


--- In , "bandyoi" <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am so afraid it is not going to be Richard.....

Fingers crossed!
On the other hand, Tudorians (is it a word?) will get an weapon to validate their claims that since something was really wrong with R's shoulders and back, the rest of it is also true!



Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:04 AM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> It's him.
>
> Enough time has passed that they should have some of the DNA results back. From the continued happy optimism of those in the know, I suspect the lab has already matched some markers with Mr. Ibsen.
>
> I doubt there would be so much continued glee if they'd been told, "Nothing matches so far, so the Leicester Warrior is just a warrior and not the king."
>
> --- In , "bandyoi" <bandyoi@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I am so afraid it is not going to be Richard.....
>
>

Does anyone know about the book Bosworth-The rise of the Tudors? It's by Chris Skidmore.

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Nice article published today. Figures it's in the Yorkshire post. Richard liveth yet.
>
> http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/health-and-family/winter-of-discontent-as-we-await-the-truth-1-5192836
>

Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.

Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 


If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.


I

Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....

I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen

--- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
> Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
>
> Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
>
>
> If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
>
>
> I
>
>
>
>

________________________________
Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.

Eileen wrote:


 
Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....

I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen

--- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
> Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
>
> Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
>
>
> If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
>
>
> I
>
>
>
>

Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen

--- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
>
> Eileen wrote:
>
>
>  
> Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
>
> I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen
>
> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> >
> > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
> >
> > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
> >
> >
> > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
> >
> >
> > I
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Pamela Furmidge wrote:
>
<snip> There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.

Carol responds:

I hope that there will be lots of white roses in the garden and not a single red one!

Carol

Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral


























Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen



--- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Thank you Eileen.ý The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.ý There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.ý All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.

>

> Eileen wrote:

>

>

> ý

> Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....

>

> I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen

>

> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:

> >

> > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.ý The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.

> >

> > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.ý I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.ý The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.ý It was full of light and felt very welcoming.ý There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.ý There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.ý I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.ý It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.ý The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.ý

> >

> >

> > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.

> >

> >

> > I

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

The Time Team?...Westminster Abbey? Oh Duh...I have missed this...I wonder if it will be on BBC Player? By the way....HT and EofY are sharing their vault with James lst....Eileen

--- In , Karen Raynor <karenraynor@...> wrote:
>
>
> Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
>
>
>
> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ________________________________
>
> > Thank you Eileen. The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars. There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all. All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
>
> >
>
> > Eileen wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Â
>
> > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
>
> >
>
> > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen
>
> >
>
> > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered. The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
>
> > >
>
> > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral. I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect. The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside. It was full of light and felt very welcoming. There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound. There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me. I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard. It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name. The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.Â
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > I
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

If it were up to me,Id turf the Welsh bugger out,and give the space to someone more worthy.It should be on BBC Player,it was very interesting.Karen
To:
From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:55:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral


























The Time Team?...Westminster Abbey? Oh Duh...I have missed this...I wonder if it will be on BBC Player? By the way....HT and EofY are sharing their vault with James lst....Eileen



--- In , Karen Raynor <karenraynor@...> wrote:

>

>

> Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:

> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...

> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000

> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen

>

>

>

> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ________________________________

>

> > Thank you Eileen.ý The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.ý There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.ý All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.

>

> >

>

> > Eileen wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ý

>

> > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....

>

> >

>

> > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen

>

> >

>

> > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:

>

> > >

>

> > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.ý The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.

>

> > >

>

> > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.ý I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.ý The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.ý It was full of light and felt very welcoming.ý There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.ý There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.ý I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.ý It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.ý The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.ý

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > I

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

If it were up to me,Id turf the Welsh bugger out,and give the space to someone more worthy.It should be on BBC Player,it was very interesting.Karen
To:
From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:55:43 +0000
Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral


























The Time Team?...Westminster Abbey? Oh Duh...I have missed this...I wonder if it will be on BBC Player? By the way....HT and EofY are sharing their vault with James lst....Eileen



--- In , Karen Raynor <karenraynor@...> wrote:

>

>

> Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:

> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...

> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000

> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen

>

>

>

> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ________________________________

>

> > Thank you Eileen.ý The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.ý There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.ý All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.

>

> >

>

> > Eileen wrote:

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ý

>

> > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....

>

> >

>

> > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen

>

> >

>

> > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:

>

> > >

>

> > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.ý The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.

>

> > >

>

> > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.ý I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.ý The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.ý It was full of light and felt very welcoming.ý There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.ý There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.ý I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.ý It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.ý The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.ý

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > > I

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily



________________________________
From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@...>
To: R3 <>
Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral


Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral




















 


   
     
     
      Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen



--- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>  Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.

>

> Eileen wrote:

> 

>

>  

> Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....

>

> I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate.  Eileen

>

> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:

> >

> > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.

> >

> > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 

> >

> >

> > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.

> >

> >

> > I

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> 

>

>

>





   
   

   
   






                         





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Thank you, Pamela, for the wonderful description.  I have never been to Leicester (yet!), but can imagine the atmosphere.  Just the right place for our man.

Dorothea



________________________________
From: Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012 4:15 AM
Subject: Leicester Cathedral


 
Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.

Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 

If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.

I

Hi
Your lucky, try teaching about Henry Tudor and his son, when you've programmed yourself to hiss and sneer at the sound of their names. I have to remember where I am and act accordingly! It's quite a challenge!
On another note, I went to York last Saturday, and visited the Minster and lit a candle for Richard and his family.
Elaine


--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@...>
> To: R3 <>
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
> Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>
> Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>    
>      
>      
>       Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
>
>
>
> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ________________________________
>
> >  Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
>
> >
>
> > Eileen wrote:
>
> > 
>
> >
>
> >  
>
> > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
>
> >
>
> > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate.  Eileen
>
> >
>
> > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
>
> > >
>
> > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > I
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>    
>    
>
>    
>    
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                          
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Apologies, that should have been
Your're lucky
Elaine

--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
> Your lucky, try teaching about Henry Tudor and his son, when you've programmed yourself to hiss and sneer at the sound of their names. I have to remember where I am and act accordingly! It's quite a challenge!
> On another note, I went to York last Saturday, and visited the Minster and lit a candle for Richard and his family.
> Elaine
>
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@>
> > To: R3 <>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
> > Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> >
> >
> > Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
> > From: cherryripe.eileenb@
> > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> >
> >    
> >      
> >      
> >       Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > ________________________________
> >
> > >  Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Eileen wrote:
> >
> > > 
> >
> > >
> >
> > >  
> >
> > > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
> >
> > >
> >
> > > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate.  Eileen
> >
> > >
> >
> > > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > > I
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > > 
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >    
> >    
> >
> >    
> >    
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >                          
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I'm giving up, I've spelt it wrong again. It's the cold in my fingers.

--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Apologies, that should have been
> Your're lucky
> Elaine
>
> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi
> > Your lucky, try teaching about Henry Tudor and his son, when you've programmed yourself to hiss and sneer at the sound of their names. I have to remember where I am and act accordingly! It's quite a challenge!
> > On another note, I went to York last Saturday, and visited the Minster and lit a candle for Richard and his family.
> > Elaine
> >
> >
> > --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@>
> > > To: R3 <>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
> > > Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > >
> > >
> > > Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
> > > From: cherryripe.eileenb@
> > > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >    
> > >      
> > >      
> > >       Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > >  Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Eileen wrote:
> > >
> > > > 
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >  
> > >
> > > > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate.  Eileen
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > I
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > 
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >    
> > >    
> > >
> > >    
> > >    
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                          
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

So do you teach Tudor from the usurpation?  And do you make sure your students know all about his bad side?
 
Liz

From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 0:21
Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral

 
I'm giving up, I've spelt it wrong again. It's the cold in my fingers.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Apologies, that should have been
> Your're lucky
> Elaine
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi
> > Your lucky, try teaching about Henry Tudor and his son, when you've programmed yourself to hiss and sneer at the sound of their names. I have to remember where I am and act accordingly! It's quite a challenge!
> > On another note, I went to York last Saturday, and visited the Minster and lit a candle for Richard and his family.
> > Elaine
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@>
> > > To: R3 <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
> > > Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > >
> > >
> > > Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > From: cherryripe.eileenb@
> > > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > >    
> > >      
> > >      
> > >       Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > >
> > > >  Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Eileen wrote:
> > >
> > > > 
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >  
> > >
> > > > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate.  Eileen
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > > I
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > > 
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >    
> > >    
> > >
> > >    
> > >    
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                          
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Musn't be childish now Karen, though I do know what you mean!
But the Torrigianos are magnificent, just a pity they do not decorate a magnificent tomb for Richard.
As for Henry Tudor, I am in the middle of reading 'The Winter King' which is somewhat enlightening.
Now don't worry, there is little Richard bashing except in the context of when Henry and his supporters did it, and the author clearly doesn't like the man, so for Ricardians it is something one can read without wanting to throw it across the room every few pages!
Paul


On 11 Dec 2012, at 20:44, Karen Raynor wrote:

>
> Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
>
>
>
> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> ________________________________
>
>> Thank you Eileen. The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars. There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all. All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
>
>>
>
>> Eileen wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Â
>
>> Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
>
>>
>
>> I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen
>
>>
>
>> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
>>>
>
>>> Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered. The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
>
>>>
>
>>> Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral. I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect. The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside. It was full of light and felt very welcoming. There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound. There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me. I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard. It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name. The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.Â
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> I
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

I have read this book and agree with Paul that is seems a fair assessment, I was surprised that the author was so unbiased.  It was a good read.




________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 10:27
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Cathedral


 
Musn't be childish now Karen, though I do know what you mean!
But the Torrigianos are magnificent, just a pity they do not decorate a magnificent tomb for Richard.
As for Henry Tudor, I am in the middle of reading 'The Winter King' which is somewhat enlightening.
Now don't worry, there is little Richard bashing except in the context of when Henry and his supporters did it, and the author clearly doesn't like the man, so for Ricardians it is something one can read without wanting to throw it across the room every few pages!
Paul

On 11 Dec 2012, at 20:44, Karen Raynor wrote:

>
> Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
>
>
>
> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> ________________________________
>
>> Thank you Eileen. The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars. There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all. All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
>
>>
>
>> Eileen wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Â
>
>> Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
>
>>
>
>> I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen
>
>>
>
>> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
>>>
>
>>> Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered. The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
>
>>>
>
>>> Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral. I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect. The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside. It was full of light and felt very welcoming. There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound. There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me. I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard. It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name. The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.Â
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> I
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

As others have mentioned before, it would be very helpful for the readability (if that's a word) of the forum to change the subject line when going off topic, or even better, start a new thread. I really struggle to follow the discussions, and would appreciate it very much. Thank you! ;-)

Renate




--- In , Karen Raynor <karenraynor@...> wrote:
>
>
> Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo:
> From: cherryripe.eileenb@...
> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
>
>
>
> --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ________________________________
>
> > Thank you Eileen. The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars. There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all. All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
>
> >
>
> > Eileen wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Â
>
> > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
>
> >
>
> > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen
>
> >
>
> > --- In , Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered. The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
>
> > >
>
> > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral. I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect. The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside. It was full of light and felt very welcoming. There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound. There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me. I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard. It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name. The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.Â
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > I
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Liz
The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices and got rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .

He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
Elaine

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> So do you teach Tudor from the usurpation?  And do you make sure your students know all about his bad side?
>  
> Liz
>
> From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 0:21
> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>  
> I'm giving up, I've spelt it wrong again. It's the cold in my fingers.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > Apologies, that should have been
> > Your're lucky
> > Elaine
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Your lucky, try teaching about Henry Tudor and his son, when you've programmed yourself to hiss and sneer at the sound of their names. I have to remember where I am and act accordingly! It's quite a challenge!
> > > On another note, I went to York last Saturday, and visited the Minster and lit a candle for Richard and his family.
> > > Elaine
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@>
> > > > To: R3 <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
> > > > Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > From: cherryripe.eileenb@
> > > > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >    
> > > >      
> > > >      
> > > >       Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > >  Thank you Eileen.  The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.  There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.  All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Eileen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >  
> > > >
> > > > > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate.  Eileen
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.  The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.  I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.  The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.  It was full of light and felt very welcoming.  There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.  There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.  I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.  It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.  The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate. 
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > I
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >    
> > > >    
> > > >
> > > >    
> > > >    
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >                          
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well you are obviously a million times better as a teacher than Starkey would ever be.  



________________________________
From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 21:12
Subject: Henry Tudor & Teaching History (WAS Re: Leicester Cathedral)

 
Hi Liz
The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices and got
rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .

He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
Elaine

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> So do you teach Tudor from the usurpation?  And do you make sure your students know all about his bad side?
>  
> Liz
>
> From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 0:21
> Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
>
>  
> I'm giving up, I've spelt it wrong again. It's the cold in my fingers.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > Apologies, that should have been
> > Your're lucky
> > Elaine
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi
> > > Your lucky, try teaching about Henry Tudor and his son, when you've programmed yourself to hiss and sneer at the sound of their names. I have to remember where I am and act accordingly! It's quite a challenge!
> > > On another note, I went to York last Saturday, and visited the Minster and lit a candle for Richard and his family.
> > > Elaine
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@>
> > > > To: R3 <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
> > > > Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > From: cherryripe.eileenb@
> > > > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >    
> > > >      
> > > >      
> > > >       Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > >
> > > > >  Thank you Eileen.à The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars.à There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all.à All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Eileen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > à
> > > >
> > > > > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate.  Eileen
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered.à The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral.à I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect.à The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside.à It was full of light and felt very welcoming.à There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound.à There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me.à I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard.à It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name.à The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.à
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > I
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >    
> > > >    
> > > >
> > > >    
> > > >    
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >                          
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Elaine, love this post.
Hicks seems to say "Richard was deeply disliked" thus paving the path for H VII to lay claim to the throne without much resistance. Seems he was the one who would have been disliked.

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 12, 2012, at 4:12 PM, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:

> Hi Liz
> The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices and got rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .
>
> He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
> Elaine
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> >
> > So do you teach Tudor from the usurpation? And do you make sure your students know all about his bad side?
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 0:21
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> >
> >
> > I'm giving up, I've spelt it wrong again. It's the cold in my fingers.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Apologies, that should have been
> > > Your're lucky
> > > Elaine
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi
> > > > Your lucky, try teaching about Henry Tudor and his son, when you've programmed yourself to hiss and sneer at the sound of their names. I have to remember where I am and act accordingly! It's quite a challenge!
> > > > On another note, I went to York last Saturday, and visited the Minster and lit a candle for Richard and his family.
> > > > Elaine
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Whenever anyone mentions him or his son I find my lip curling involuntarily
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Karen Raynor <karenraynor@>
> > > > > To: R3 <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 11 December 2012, 20:44
> > > > > Subject: RE: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Off topic,but Im watching Time Team in Westminster Abbey......they are looking at the tomb of Henry Tudor.Does anyone else find themselves hissing,as a force of habit, whenever he is mentioned....or is it just me....?KarenTo: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > From: cherryripe.eileenb@
> > > > > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 18:31:38 +0000
> > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Cathedral
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pamela...my husband is on Leicester Alert!....he knows that one day in the not too distant future he is going to have to drive me to Leicester....He knows how much this trip will mean to me...He also knows that I will weep buckets....Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thank you Eileen. The Cathedral is located in an area with a lot of old buildings, including the former grammar school which the City Council have bought with a view to making it a visitor centre associated with Richard as well as Greyfriars. There are plans to create gardens around the Cathedral to create a peaceful open space which can be enjoyed by all. All in all, it is a wonderful setting, and very appropriate as a resting place for a king.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Eileen wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Â
> > > > >
> > > > > > Pamela...I do envy you that you have been able to see the place where Richard has lain for so long...What a shame there is no way that they cannot preserve this area in some way....
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think your message will console those people who will be, initially, disappointed with Leicester Cathedral being the place for Richard's reburial as you have made it sound peaceful, beautiful and appropriate. Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Today I went to Leicester to see the place where the Greyfriars Warrior was discovered. The site is not open to the public now, but I was able to go up to the 'tent' which covers it and look through the 'window' and see into the part of the trench which hasn't been filled in.
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Afterwards I went across the road to Leicester Cathedral. I hadn't been before and didn't know what to expect. The day was cold and frosty, but the Cathedral was warm inside. It was full of light and felt very welcoming. There was someone playing the grand piano, filling the building with sound. There weren't many people there, may be two or three apart from me. I found the stone slab on the floor commemorating Richard. It lies immediately before the High Altar and I found it very moving, standing there, looking at the carving of the crown just above his name. The whole atmosphere was warm and inviting. The Cathedral, whilst being a large building, still felt intimate.Â
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > If the Greyfriars Warrior, hopefully identified as Richard III, is buried there, he will lie in a very good place.
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (25)
> RECENT ACTIVITY:

Did the nobles who supported Henry VII get everything they anticipated getting once Richard was gone?

Do you think any of them wished they hadn't supported Henry, but that they were still under Richard's rule, or had his generosity to the lesser classes so upset them, Henry was a golden boy?


--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Liz
> The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices and got rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .
>
> He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
> Elaine

Hi
Apologies for not answering sooner due to Christmas and work. Yes, some lived to rue the day, for example the John de Vere, Earl of Oxford who commanded the van at Bosworth was initially rewarded but later fell foul of Henry's policy on fining those who broke his law on retaining (Edward IV had originally brought to heel the nobles by introducing a law which restricted nobles from allowing their supporters from wearing their colours/livery) Henry reintroduced it and refined it. Whereas Edward had not enforced the law for those closet to him, Henry's enforcement made no allowances even for those who had done him great service, and it could be argued in Oxford's case, had won him the throne. Oxford unwisely tried to impress Henry during a visit to his castle at Henningham, with a show of his servants and others wearing his livery; he was subsequently fined 15,000 marks. William Stanley who ultimately joined the fray at Bosworth against Richard after having sat it out was also to find out that Henry did not forgive transgressions even though he was related by marriage to Henry as Margaret Beaufort was married to Thomas Stanley. He was executed for his part in the Perkin Warbeck conspiracy when Sir Robert Clifford, who was also one of the plotters, double crossed them and revealed the plot to Henry in return for his life. The closeness of their positions to the king, Stanley was Chamberlain and John Ratcliffe the king's steward, was sufficient to ensure there was reprieve and they were both executed in 1495.
Elaine



--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Did the nobles who supported Henry VII get everything they anticipated getting once Richard was gone?
>
> Do you think any of them wished they hadn't supported Henry, but that they were still under Richard's rule, or had his generosity to the lesser classes so upset them, Henry was a golden boy?
>
>
> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Liz
> > The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices and got rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .
> >
> > He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
> > Elaine
>

Just noticed I missed an e out of closest and it should be that there was no reprieve.
Elaine

--- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
> Apologies for not answering sooner due to Christmas and work. Yes, some lived to rue the day, for example the John de Vere, Earl of Oxford who commanded the van at Bosworth was initially rewarded but later fell foul of Henry's policy on fining those who broke his law on retaining (Edward IV had originally brought to heel the nobles by introducing a law which restricted nobles from allowing their supporters from wearing their colours/livery) Henry reintroduced it and refined it. Whereas Edward had not enforced the law for those closet to him, Henry's enforcement made no allowances even for those who had done him great service, and it could be argued in Oxford's case, had won him the throne. Oxford unwisely tried to impress Henry during a visit to his castle at Henningham, with a show of his servants and others wearing his livery; he was subsequently fined 15,000 marks. William Stanley who ultimately joined the fray at Bosworth against Richard after having sat it out was also to find out that Henry did not forgive transgressions even though he was related by marriage to Henry as Margaret Beaufort was married to Thomas Stanley. He was executed for his part in the Perkin Warbeck conspiracy when Sir Robert Clifford, who was also one of the plotters, double crossed them and revealed the plot to Henry in return for his life. The closeness of their positions to the king, Stanley was Chamberlain and John Ratcliffe the king's steward, was sufficient to ensure there was reprieve and they were both executed in 1495.
> Elaine
>
>
>
> --- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@> wrote:
> >
> > Did the nobles who supported Henry VII get everything they anticipated getting once Richard was gone?
> >
> > Do you think any of them wished they hadn't supported Henry, but that they were still under Richard's rule, or had his generosity to the lesser classes so upset them, Henry was a golden boy?
> >
> >
> > --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Liz
> > > The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices and got rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .
> > >
> > > He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
> > > Elaine
> >
>

There were in fact very few nobles in Henry's army. The Frenchman Phillipe de Chande was made Earl of Bath, but this was merely a courtesy title.

Thomas Stanley was made Earl of Derby, Jasper Tudor made Duke of Bedford and had the Earldom of Pembroke restored. Otherwise, Henry's main policy was the restoration of Lancastrian peerages under attainder during Yorkist rule.
Thus peerages such as Buckingham, Oxford, Rivers, Hungerford, Wells, Devon, Ormonde, Clifford, Roos & Beaumont were restored to their respective heirs, or recreated for cadet branches.

Henry is somewhat unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations; in fact he had to deal with both the bulk of Edward's Yorkist nobility, and the restored Lancastrian ranks, so had a rather bloated House of Lords to begin with. 


________________________________
From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 27 December 2012, 0:41
Subject: Henry Tudor & Teaching History (WAS Re: Leicester Cathedral)


 
Hi
Apologies for not answering sooner due to Christmas and work. Yes, some lived to rue the day, for example the John de Vere, Earl of Oxford who commanded the van at Bosworth was initially rewarded but later fell foul of Henry's policy on fining those who broke his law on retaining (Edward IV had originally brought to heel the nobles by introducing a law which restricted nobles from allowing their supporters from wearing their colours/livery) Henry reintroduced it and refined it. Whereas Edward had not enforced the law for those closet to him, Henry's enforcement made no allowances even for those who had done him great service, and it could be argued in Oxford's case, had won him the throne. Oxford unwisely tried to impress Henry during a visit to his castle at Henningham, with a show of his servants and others wearing his livery; he was subsequently fined 15,000 marks. William Stanley who ultimately joined the fray at Bosworth against Richard after
having sat it out was also to find out that Henry did not forgive transgressions even though he was related by marriage to Henry as Margaret Beaufort was married to Thomas Stanley. He was executed for his part in the Perkin Warbeck conspiracy when Sir Robert Clifford, who was also one of the plotters, double crossed them and revealed the plot to Henry in return for his life. The closeness of their positions to the king, Stanley was Chamberlain and John Ratcliffe the king's steward, was sufficient to ensure there was reprieve and they were both executed in 1495.
Elaine

--- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> Did the nobles who supported Henry VII get everything they anticipated getting once Richard was gone?
>
> Do you think any of them wished they hadn't supported Henry, but that they were still under Richard's rule, or had his generosity to the lesser classes so upset them, Henry was a golden boy?
>
>
> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Liz
> > The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices
and got rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .
> >
> > He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
> > Elaine
>

Yes David, I think most of us Ricardians are unfair to him. He was a most unattractive man, but he did manage to die in his bed with the crown still on his head, passed peacefully to his son. Thus proving him a very good reader of what was going on in the kingdom, and a swift punisher of treason. No hoping for reconciliation with doubtful allies, like Richard, and a very wide spy service that kept him up to date with all conspiracies. He also punished the nobility heavily for any digressions or challenges, first using the thing that punished most, money, imposing huge fines and bonds to ensure loyalty.
Paul


On 27 Dec 2012, at 20:15, david rayner wrote:

> There were in fact very few nobles in Henry's army. The Frenchman Phillipe de Chande was made Earl of Bath, but this was merely a courtesy title.
>
> Thomas Stanley was made Earl of Derby, Jasper Tudor made Duke of Bedford and had the Earldom of Pembroke restored. Otherwise, Henry's main policy was the restoration of Lancastrian peerages under attainder during Yorkist rule.
> Thus peerages such as Buckingham, Oxford, Rivers, Hungerford, Wells, Devon, Ormonde, Clifford, Roos & Beaumont were restored to their respective heirs, or recreated for cadet branches.
>
> Henry is somewhat unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations; in fact he had to deal with both the bulk of Edward's Yorkist nobility, and the restored Lancastrian ranks, so had a rather bloated House of Lords to begin with.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ellrosa1452 <kathryn198@...>
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, 27 December 2012, 0:41
> Subject: Henry Tudor & Teaching History (WAS Re: Leicester Cathedral)
>
>
>
> Hi
> Apologies for not answering sooner due to Christmas and work. Yes, some lived to rue the day, for example the John de Vere, Earl of Oxford who commanded the van at Bosworth was initially rewarded but later fell foul of Henry's policy on fining those who broke his law on retaining (Edward IV had originally brought to heel the nobles by introducing a law which restricted nobles from allowing their supporters from wearing their colours/livery) Henry reintroduced it and refined it. Whereas Edward had not enforced the law for those closet to him, Henry's enforcement made no allowances even for those who had done him great service, and it could be argued in Oxford's case, had won him the throne. Oxford unwisely tried to impress Henry during a visit to his castle at Henningham, with a show of his servants and others wearing his livery; he was subsequently fined 15,000 marks. William Stanley who ultimately joined the fray at Bosworth against Richard after
> having sat it out was also to find out that Henry did not forgive transgressions even though he was related by marriage to Henry as Margaret Beaufort was married to Thomas Stanley. He was executed for his part in the Perkin Warbeck conspiracy when Sir Robert Clifford, who was also one of the plotters, double crossed them and revealed the plot to Henry in return for his life. The closeness of their positions to the king, Stanley was Chamberlain and John Ratcliffe the king's steward, was sufficient to ensure there was reprieve and they were both executed in 1495.
> Elaine
>
> --- In , "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>>
>> Did the nobles who supported Henry VII get everything they anticipated getting once Richard was gone?
>>
>> Do you think any of them wished they hadn't supported Henry, but that they were still under Richard's rule, or had his generosity to the lesser classes so upset them, Henry was a golden boy?
>>
>>
>> --- In , "ellrosa1452" <kathryn198@> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Liz
>>> The important thing is to be unbiased and to allow students to make up their own minds on the evidence presented as what I am trying to teach is not only the subject matter but also the skills of a historian. That's why I get so hot under the collar on this forum regarding the bias shown by Hicks, Weir, Starkey et al as they demonstrate the unprincipled aspects of historians with either axes to grind or who follow particular lines of enquiry refuting or discarding evidence in order to reinforce their own theories. Having said that I make sure students are aware of the whole picture including the contextual background. As far as Henry Tudor is concerned, most students seem to be aware that his claim was weak, which only reinforces his need to create a propaganda campaign discrediting Richard. Henry's actions, once on the throne speak for themselves; the way he squeezed the population through excessive taxation using men, who enforced his polices
> and got rich in the process, such as Edmund Dudley and Richard Empson to coerce and threaten. Empson, a lawyer, gave lectures at the Inns of Court explaining how the king's prerogative overrode the rights of the nobility. Morton's Fork, dreamt up by John Morton as Chancellor to relieve the population of more money through its premise that if you cannot pay then you must be hiding your wealth but if you live lavishly then you have excess to spare and can afford to pay can be seen as a metaphor for Henry's philosophy of ruling by control, coercion and subverting the law for his own ends .
>>>
>>> He had no peace as his reign was continually under threatfrom invasions: Simnel, Warbeck, and he was constantly trying to broker deals with France, Spain and Scotland. I don't think anyone would say he was liked and there was no sadness when he died, even from his son, apart from his mother who only survived him by a few months. The irony is that he died so rich having screwed the people and his son blew it all on lavish entertainments and extravagant living; so much so that he had to find other ways to fill the royal coffers. And that was why the Catholic Church and the monasteries looked so appealing which led ultimately to the break with Rome and the dissolution of the monasteries.
>>> Elaine
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
<snip>
> Henry is somewhat unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations; in fact he had to deal with both the bulk of Edward's Yorkist nobility, and the restored Lancastrian ranks, so had a rather bloated House of Lords to begin with. 

Carol responds:

Does anyone know how many of those Yorkist lords would have attended both Henry's first Parliament (which repealed Titulus Regius) and Richard's only Parliament (which instituted it)? That must have been an uncomfortable experience, especially for those who secretly wished that Richard had won the battle.

As for Henry being "unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations," he was quite slow in restoring Thomas Howard's titles (granted, Howard had fought against him at Bosworth but he later accepted the inevitable, alas, and fought *for* him. Henry also withheld the title Duke of Suffolk from Edmund de la Pole after his father died (apparently of grief over the death in battle of Edmund's elder brother, John Earl of Lincoln.) I believe that he also withheld some titles from George of Clarence's daughter, Margaret, but I don't recall the details.

Carol

Henry could be remarkably mean with people who didn't tow the line. My specific point was that he is often accused of creating very few new titles compared to, say, Edward IV or Henry VI.
This usually ignores his restoration of many Lancastrian titles that had been effectively dormant under the Yorkists. By and large, Henry was willing to tolerate the many titles created by Edward to replace attainted Lancastrians, so Henry had to deal with two bunches of Peers at once. He had also to deal with rival land claims from each; for example Lord Hastings had built up a large estate in the midlands almost entirely from forfeited Lancastrian lands, which Henry now restored to their original families. The Stanley's had been awarded Skipton, which was now restored as the seat of the Lords Clifford, who had been under attainder since 1461, which may have angered William Stanley.
In fact Henry's mean dealings with the few families attainted after Bosworth such as the Zouches can be partly explained by the need to grab more estates to try satisfying both groups of peers. 


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012, 15:48
Subject: Henry Tudor & Teaching History (WAS Re: Leicester Cathedral)


 
david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
<snip>
> Henry is somewhat unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations; in fact he had to deal with both the bulk of Edward's Yorkist nobility, and the restored Lancastrian ranks, so had a rather bloated House of Lords to begin with. 

Carol responds:

Does anyone know how many of those Yorkist lords would have attended both Henry's first Parliament (which repealed Titulus Regius) and Richard's only Parliament (which instituted it)? That must have been an uncomfortable experience, especially for those who secretly wished that Richard had won the battle.

As for Henry being "unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations," he was quite slow in restoring Thomas Howard's titles (granted, Howard had fought against him at Bosworth but he later accepted the inevitable, alas, and fought *for* him. Henry also withheld the title Duke of Suffolk from Edmund de la Pole after his father died (apparently of grief over the death in battle of Edmund's elder brother, John Earl of Lincoln.) I believe that he also withheld some titles from George of Clarence's daughter, Margaret, but I don't recall the details.

Carol

I was wondering what happened to the wives of Richard's friends and the knights who died with him. Also Francis Lovell's wife and Earl of Lincoln's.

Did the Duchess of Suffolk stay at court after her family was slaughtered?

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 28, 2012, at 5:11 PM, david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:

> Henry could be remarkably mean with people who didn't tow the line. My specific point was that he is often accused of creating very few new titles compared to, say, Edward IV or Henry VI.
> This usually ignores his restoration of many Lancastrian titles that had been effectively dormant under the Yorkists. By and large, Henry was willing to tolerate the many titles created by Edward to replace attainted Lancastrians, so Henry had to deal with two bunches of Peers at once. He had also to deal with rival land claims from each; for example Lord Hastings had built up a large estate in the midlands almost entirely from forfeited Lancastrian lands, which Henry now restored to their original families. The Stanley's had been awarded Skipton, which was now restored as the seat of the Lords Clifford, who had been under attainder since 1461, which may have angered William Stanley.
> In fact Henry's mean dealings with the few families attainted after Bosworth such as the Zouches can be partly explained by the need to grab more estates to try satisfying both groups of peers.
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 28 December 2012, 15:48
> Subject: Henry Tudor & Teaching History (WAS Re: Leicester Cathedral)
>
>
>
> david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
> <snip>
> > Henry is somewhat unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations; in fact he had to deal with both the bulk of Edward's Yorkist nobility, and the restored Lancastrian ranks, so had a rather bloated House of Lords to begin with.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Does anyone know how many of those Yorkist lords would have attended both Henry's first Parliament (which repealed Titulus Regius) and Richard's only Parliament (which instituted it)? That must have been an uncomfortable experience, especially for those who secretly wished that Richard had won the battle.
>
> As for Henry being "unfairly accused of being stingy in peerage creations," he was quite slow in restoring Thomas Howard's titles (granted, Howard had fought against him at Bosworth but he later accepted the inevitable, alas, and fought *for* him. Henry also withheld the title Duke of Suffolk from Edmund de la Pole after his father died (apparently of grief over the death in battle of Edmund's elder brother, John Earl of Lincoln.) I believe that he also withheld some titles from George of Clarence's daughter, Margaret, but I don't recall the details.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>

There have been few documentaries about Henry VII, and after last
night's BBC one with Thomas Penn, the Winter King, I understand
perfectly why.
At the start he stated how the first Tudor had been overlooked by the
charisma of his predecessor, Richard III, his son, Henry VIII, and his
granddaughter Elizabeth. By the end he had established how not even a
man steeped in the life of Henry VII as king could inject much
enthusiasm, little liking, a grudging admiration, and no charisma into
this man who clearly had no right to the throne, anf fought all his life
to keep it.
The entire production leant towards the superficial, and nothing, not
even Perkin Warbeck's invasion was looked at in any depth. The
disappearance of the sons of Edward IV into the Tower was only mentioned
as that; the possibility that Warbeck could have been one of those boys,
not mentioned; though dating his reign from the day before Bosworth was
talked of, no mention of the repeal of Titulus Regius unread and the
reversal of the bastardy of his bride to be, making her brother, if
alive, legitimate monarch. And the entire affair was referred to as
Stanley's rebellion.
While the de la Pole's were talked of as being legitimate Yorkist
claimants, none of the others with a better claim came into view.
with no extant palaces of the first Tudor left standing, it was left to
Thomas Penn to wander around Hampton Court, comparing it to Richmond, to
show how withdrawn and suspicious the old man became in his latter
years, and how difficult access was to his person.
An opportunity missed, but I doubt anyone else could have done better.
Even as someone with an interest in what he had to say, I found my
concentration drifting. Often.
Paul
--
Richard Liveth Yet!

 I've said elsewhere I just think he didn't have time. His book concentrates on post 1502 so he understandably concentrated on that. It would have taken a whole programme, probably more, to do justice to the post 1485 plotting. To be fair, he did say Henry had no real claim, he didn't say that Richard killed the princes, and he said nothing to really blacken Richard. Yes I would have loved more on Morton, MB, Bray, Empson (as well as Dudley) but he was clearly constrained. I wished they'd given him a series. 



________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To: RichardIIISociety forum <>
Sent: Friday, 31 May 2013, 10:19
Subject: The Winter King


 

There have been few documentaries about Henry VII, and after last
night's BBC one with Thomas Penn, the Winter King, I understand
perfectly why.
At the start he stated how the first Tudor had been overlooked by the
charisma of his predecessor, Richard III, his son, Henry VIII, and his
granddaughter Elizabeth. By the end he had established how not even a
man steeped in the life of Henry VII as king could inject much
enthusiasm, little liking, a grudging admiration, and no charisma into
this man who clearly had no right to the throne, anf fought all his life
to keep it.
The entire production leant towards the superficial, and nothing, not
even Perkin Warbeck's invasion was looked at in any depth. The
disappearance of the sons of Edward IV into the Tower was only mentioned
as that; the possibility that Warbeck could have been one of those boys,
not mentioned; though dating his reign from the day before Bosworth was
talked of, no mention of the repeal of Titulus Regius unread and the
reversal of the bastardy of his bride to be, making her brother, if
alive, legitimate monarch. And the entire affair was referred to as
Stanley's rebellion.
While the de la Pole's were talked of as being legitimate Yorkist
claimants, none of the others with a better claim came into view.
with no extant palaces of the first Tudor left standing, it was left to
Thomas Penn to wander around Hampton Court, comparing it to Richmond, to
show how withdrawn and suspicious the old man became in his latter
years, and how difficult access was to his person.
An opportunity missed, but I doubt anyone else could have done better.
Even as someone with an interest in what he had to say, I found my
concentration drifting. Often.
Paul
--
Richard Liveth Yet!

From: Hilary Jones
To:
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: The Winter King


> I've said elsewhere I just think he didn't have time. His book
> concentrates on post 1502 so he understandably concentrated on that. It
> would have taken a whole programme, probably more, to do justice to the
> post 1485 plotting. To be fair, he did say Henry had no real claim, he
> didn't say that Richard killed the princes, and he said nothing to really
> blacken Richard. Yes I would have loved more on Morton, MB, Bray, Empson
> (as well as Dudley) but he was clearly constrained. I wished they'd given
> him a series.

In addition to Titulus Regius I would have liked to have seen some mention
of the incident in which iirc several members of parliament were summarily
executed, of Morton's Fork and of the execution of young Warwick (showing
that the Tudor policiy of eliminating a whole family had already begun).

In the other direction I'd have liked to have seen mention of Henry's
slightly snide but still considerable leniency to Lambert Simnel, his love
of the arts especially poetry and his occasional, whimsical generosity, such
as when he gave a small fortune to some peasant children because he liked
their singing.

And we could have done with a mention, even in passing, of the fact that
William Stanley was the brother of Henry's stepfather: the fact that it was
a close family member who had decided that Henry's reign was a Bad Thing
gives it much greater significance imo. But, as you say, there wasn't
enough time. If not a series it would at least have been nice to have a
two-parter: as with Richard there's a lot of material there which hardly
ever gets an airing, and yet which in many ways is more interesting than
Henry VIII's reign which gets so much coverage. Henry VIII is just a
Hollywood blockbuster - but his father is more like a play by Kafka.

claire said > snip ,
his love of the arts especially poetry and his occasional, whimsical generosity, such
as when he gave a small fortune to some peasant children because he liked
their singing.
 
Liz replied:  But is that "really true about the chidren (or a myth like him going to Eton?) because I don't believe a word of it.  I can't imagine the old miser giving money to anyone.

Yes I'd like to know the source for that.



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 31 May 2013, 13:41
Subject: Re: The Winter King


 



claire said > snip ,
his love of the arts especially poetry and his occasional, whimsical generosity, such
as when he gave a small fortune to some peasant children because he liked
their singing.
 
Liz replied:  But is that "really true about the chidren (or a myth like him going to Eton?) because I don't believe a word of it.  I can't imagine the old miser giving money to anyone.

From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Friday, May 31, 2013 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: The Winter King


> Liz replied: But is that "really true about the chidren (or a myth like
> him going to Eton?) because I don't believe a word of it. I can't imagine
> the old miser giving money to anyone.

Can't remember where I read about the singing children, but Kendall records
that Henry once paid a woman five shillings (about £150 iirc) for two
glasses of water, and gave £30 - which iirc amounts to about £18,000 in
modern money - to "a young damoyselle that danceth". These seem to be from
Henry's Privy Purse expenses, if I understand Kendall correctly.

Unless the dancer was his mistress, this suggests he was capable of being as
generous as Richard. The difference is that Richard's generosity was of a
kind which suggests organised social thought and was dependent on how much
the recipient needed his generosity, whereas Henry's was whimsical, and
selfish in that it depended on how much somebody pleased him, rather than
how much they needed help. But it does show that if somebody pleased him he
wanted to please them back, which is amiable.

I can see why the blurb for the programme descriebd the Tudors as one of the
strangest regimes in history. I didn't find the idea of Henry as a brutal
dictator all that convincing - compared to a Hitler or a Stalin, an Ivan the
Terrible or even his own son he was nearly cuddly - but under Henry, England
was essentially being governed by a firm of loan sharks.