ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.

http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/

I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.

~Weds

Bye for now, Wednesday!



Thanks for the link - those Rous Roll figures are very appealing, and it's
especially nice to see them in color!



I don't envy you going into the frozen North. I found Nova Scotia frozen
enough when compare with sunny, warm Barbados! Brrrr!!!



Merry Christmas and looking forward to a great Ricardian year in 2013!



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 1:21 PM
To:
Subject: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous
Christmas Parties (sic)





Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points
out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.

http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-partie
s/

I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he
may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head
north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.

~Weds

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:31 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:

> Bye for now, Wednesday!
>
> Thanks for the link - those Rous Roll figures are very appealing, and it's
> especially nice to see them in color!
>
> I don't envy you going into the frozen North. I found Nova Scotia frozen
> enough when compare with sunny, warm Barbados! Brrrr!!!
>
> Merry Christmas and looking forward to a great Ricardian year in 2013!
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 1:21 PM
> To:
> Subject: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous
> Christmas Parties (sic)
>
> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points
> out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>
> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-partie
> s/
>
> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he
> may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head
> north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
>
> ~Weds
>
>
>
>

Actually, it is Anne and Elizabeth who are criticized. And Elizabeth is said to resemble Anne which I find interesting. Richard, apparently, gave good parties. Certainly von Poppelau thought so. Maire.

--- In , Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!!
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:31 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:
>
> > Bye for now, Wednesday!
> >
> > Thanks for the link - those Rous Roll figures are very appealing, and it's
> > especially nice to see them in color!
> >
> > I don't envy you going into the frozen North. I found Nova Scotia frozen
> > enough when compare with sunny, warm Barbados! Brrrr!!!
> >
> > Merry Christmas and looking forward to a great Ricardian year in 2013!
> >
> > Loyaulte me lie,
> >
> > Johanne
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Johanne L. Tournier
> >
> > Email - jltournier60@...
> >
> > or jltournier@...
> >
> > "With God, all things are possible."
> >
> > - Jesus of Nazareth
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 1:21 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous
> > Christmas Parties (sic)
> >
> > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points
> > out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> >
> > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-partie
> > s/
> >
> > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he
> > may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head
> > north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

"The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of the goings-on' at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities because it is shameful to speak of them  but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and vain changes of apparel of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard III's niece."

What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!

Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?





Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>
> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
>
> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
>
> ~Weds
>
>

The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.

Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)


 
"The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of the goings-on' at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities because it is shameful to speak of them  but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and vain changes of apparel of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard III's niece."

What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!

Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>
> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
>
> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
>
> ~Weds
>
>

Yup. I am with you.
But still I don't know what Croyland means by " vain change of apparel"!
And what " sensual" going on does he refer to? Considering Richard was not known for frolicking around like his brother, I don't see what could be so bad as to be " shameful " to be talked about!


Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 22, 2012, at 9:48 PM, Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...> wrote:

> The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
>
> Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
>
>
> "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of the goings-on' at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities because it is shameful to speak of them  but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and vain changes of apparel of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard III's niece."
>
> What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
>
> Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> >
> > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> >
> > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I read somewhere (Annette's book?  I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)



________________________________
From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

 
The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.

Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)


 
"The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of the goings-on' at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities because it is shameful to speak of them  but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and vain changes of apparel of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard III's niece."

What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!

Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:

> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>
> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
>
> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
>
> ~Weds
>
>

Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> I read somewhere (Annette's book?  I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
>  
> The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
>
> Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
>
>  
> "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of ‘the goings-on’ at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities “because it is shameful to speak of them” â€" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and “vain changes of apparel” of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard III’s niece."
>
> What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
>
> Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> >
> > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> >
> > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Speaking of Christmas....May I take this opportunity to wish everyone here and Ricardians everywhere a Very Happy Crimbo and a Splendid New Year....Best wishes Eileen

--- In , "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@> wrote:
> >
> > I read somewhere (Annette's book?  I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> >
> >  
> > The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> >
> > Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> >
> > Judy
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> >
> >
> >  
> > "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of ‘the goings-on’ at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities “because it is shameful to speak of them” â€" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and “vain changes of apparel” of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard III’s niece."
> >
> > What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> >
> > Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> > >
> > > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> > >
> > > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
>
> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> >
> > I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> > To: "" <>
> > Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> >
> > Â
> > The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> >
> > Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> >
> > Judy
> > Â
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> >
> >
> > Â
> > "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬝ â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬝ of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
> >
> > What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> >
> > Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> > >
> > > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> > >
> > > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

It wouldn't have taken her three months to die from food poisoning......


Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 23, 2012, at 10:09 PM, George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:

> Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> > Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
> >
> > --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> > > To: "" <>
> > > Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > >
> > > Â
> > > The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> > >
> > > Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> > >
> > > Judy
> > > Â
> > > Loyaulte me lie
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > >
> > >
> > > Â
> > > "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬝ â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬝ of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
> > >
> > > What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> > >
> > > Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> > > >
> > > > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> > > >
> > > > ~Weds
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Henry I it was. Sent Stephen rushing for the coast and the crown thus starting the first English Civil War!
Paul

On 24 Dec 2012, at 03:09, George Butterfield wrote:

> Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
>> Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
>>
>> --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
>>> To: "" <>
>>> Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
>>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>>>
>>> Â
>>> The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
>>>
>>> Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
>>>
>>> Judy
>>> Â
>>> Loyaulte me lie
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬝ â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬝ of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
>>>
>>> What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
>>>
>>> Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
>>>
>>> Ishita Bandyo
>>> www.ishitabandyo.com
>>> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
>>> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
>>>>
>>>> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
>>>>
>>>> ~Weds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

According to several websites John died from a surfeit of peaches.



________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 24 December 2012, 9:35
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

 
Henry I it was. Sent Stephen rushing for the coast and the crown thus starting the first English Civil War!
Paul

On 24 Dec 2012, at 03:09, George Butterfield wrote:

> Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
>>
>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
>>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>>>
>>> Â
>>> The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
>>>
>>> Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
>>>
>>> Judy
>>> Â
>>> Loyaulte me lie
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬠â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬠of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
>>>
>>> What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
>>>
>>> Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
>>>
>>> Ishita Bandyo
>>> www.ishitabandyo.com
>>> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
>>> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
>>>>
>>>> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
>>>>
>>>> ~Weds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Especially if he ate'em pits and all. Prussic acid....

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)


 
According to several websites John died from a surfeit of peaches.

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 24 December 2012, 9:35
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

 
Henry I it was. Sent Stephen rushing for the coast and the crown thus starting the first English Civil War!
Paul

On 24 Dec 2012, at 03:09, George Butterfield wrote:

> Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
>>
>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
>>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>>>
>>> Â
>>> The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
>>>
>>> Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
>>>
>>> Judy
>>> Â
>>> Loyaulte me lie
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
>>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>>>
>>>
>>> Â
>>> "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬠â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬠of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
>>>
>>> What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
>>>
>>> Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
>>>
>>> Ishita Bandyo
>>> www.ishitabandyo.com
>>> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
>>> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
>>>>
>>>> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
>>>>
>>>> ~Weds
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

It would if she had picked up a bug or parasite

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 23, 2012, at 11:30 PM, Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...> wrote:

> It wouldn't have taken her three months to die from food poisoning......
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 10:09 PM, George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:
>
> > Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> > > > To: "" <>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> > > >
> > > > Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > > Â
> > > > Loyaulte me lie
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬝ â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬝ of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
> > > >
> > > > What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> > > >
> > > > Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> > > > >
> > > > > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Weds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

I find that difficult as peaches are not grown in England but eels are plentiful

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 24, 2012, at 9:27 AM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

> According to several websites John died from a surfeit of peaches.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 24 December 2012, 9:35
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
>
> Henry I it was. Sent Stephen rushing for the coast and the crown thus starting the first English Civil War!
> Paul
>
> On 24 Dec 2012, at 03:09, George Butterfield wrote:
>
> > Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
> >>
> >> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> >>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> >>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> >>>
> >>> Â
> >>> The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> >>>
> >>> Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> >>>
> >>> Judy
> >>> Â
> >>> Loyaulte me lie
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> >>> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Â
> >>> "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬠â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬠of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
> >>>
> >>> What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> >>>
> >>> Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> >>>
> >>> Ishita Bandyo
> >>> www.ishitabandyo.com
> >>> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> >>> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >>>
> >>> On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> >>>>
> >>>> I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> >>>>
> >>>> ~Weds
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>

George Butterfield wrote:


"I find that difficult as peaches are not grown in England but eels are
plentiful "

I understand that there was a period during the Middle Ages when wine was
produced in England in, basically, commercial quantities because of a
lengthy period (several centuries) of quite warm temperatures. It was
something along the lines of 1100 to about 1400, if my memory is good
(hah!).
If grape vines, why not peaches?
Doug

Wine has never not been produced in England there are many very good wine producers but peaches????

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 24, 2012, at 11:56 AM, "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:

>
> George Butterfield wrote:
>
> "I find that difficult as peaches are not grown in England but eels are
> plentiful "
>
> I understand that there was a period during the Middle Ages when wine was
> produced in England in, basically, commercial quantities because of a
> lengthy period (several centuries) of quite warm temperatures. It was
> something along the lines of 1100 to about 1400, if my memory is good
> (hah!).
> If grape vines, why not peaches?
> Doug
>
>

Wine is still produced in England, for example this vineyard is not far from me
 
http://www.cartersvineyards.co.uk/
 
 


________________________________
From: Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 24 December 2012, 16:56
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

 

George Butterfield wrote:

"I find that difficult as peaches are not grown in England but eels are
plentiful "

I understand that there was a period during the Middle Ages when wine was
produced in England in, basically, commercial quantities because of a
lengthy period (several centuries) of quite warm temperatures. It was
something along the lines of 1100 to about 1400, if my memory is good
(hah!).
If grape vines, why not peaches?
Doug

Would it keep Richard from her bed though?
 
 


________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 14:22
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

 
It would if she had picked up a bug or parasite

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 23, 2012, at 11:30 PM, Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com> wrote:

> It wouldn't have taken her three months to die from food poisoning......
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 10:09 PM, George Butterfield <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> > > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> > > >
> > > > Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > > Â
> > > > Loyaulte me lie
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬠â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬠of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
> > > >
> > > > What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> > > >
> > > > Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> > > > >
> > > > > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Weds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Hi, Liz 

If it was pretty clear that Anne was dying, I would think there would be orders for Richard to stay away from her bed (and bedchamber). If she had discharges (of whatever variety) I would think that would result in the same restrictions. Though I really know zippo-zip-nada about this issue. That would seem like common sense to protect the sovereign. But, in addition, I seem to recall that this was one of the things reported by the Croyland Continuator and used to assail Richard with. Do I recall correctly?



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 12:54 PM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)





Would it keep Richard from her bed though?



________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@... <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com> >
To: " <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> " < <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 14:22
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)


It would if she had picked up a bug or parasite

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 23, 2012, at 11:30 PM, Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com> wrote:

> It wouldn't have taken her three months to die from food poisoning......
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 10:09 PM, George Butterfield <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> > > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> > > >
> > > > Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > > Â
> > > > Loyaulte me lie
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬠â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬠of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
> > > >
> > > > What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> > > >
> > > > Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> > > > >
> > > > > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Weds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

It was suggested Richard used it as an excuse because he was after Elizabeth. 
 


________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:27
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

 
Hi, Liz 

If it was pretty clear that Anne was dying, I would think there would be orders for Richard to stay away from her bed (and bedchamber). If she had discharges (of whatever variety) I would think that would result in the same restrictions. Though I really know zippo-zip-nada about this issue. That would seem like common sense to protect the sovereign. But, in addition, I seem to recall that this was one of the things reported by the Croyland Continuator and used to assail Richard with. Do I recall correctly?

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com

or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 12:54 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

Would it keep Richard from her bed though?



________________________________
From: George Butterfield <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com> >
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> " <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 14:22
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

It would if she had picked up a bug or parasite

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 23, 2012, at 11:30 PM, Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com> wrote:

> It wouldn't have taken her three months to die from food poisoning......
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Dec 23, 2012, at 10:09 PM, George Butterfield <mailto:gbutterf1%40yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Food provisioning will do this didn't King John die from a surfeit of lampfryies?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Dec 23, 2012, at 1:56 PM, "EileenB" <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Methinks the Old Boy was over-egging the pudding....I find it strange that Anne was one day capable of riotious behaviour and then being taken very ill so suddenly that she took to her bed and never arose from it again...Of course not knowing exactly what killed her it may have happened like that..but still, seems strange...Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I read somewhere (Annette's book? I can't remember) that it was often done that people would wear, for example, the same colour on certain days i.e. everyone wore red one day, yellow another etc, and this could extend to having clothes made out of the same material (a bit like the Von Trapp kids wearing the curtains.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
> > > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 23 December 2012, 2:48
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > The "romancing" part doesn't follow; exchanging clothes or wearing the same fabric would be decided upon by the women. It sounds like women's choices. More than likely the queen herself honoured her niece for the Yuletide with a length of whatever fabric her own gown was being made up of. Men, then as now, would be out-of-the-loop in decisions of feminine fashion.
> > > >
> > > > Since most of Croyland's comments are mean-spirited, why would this be any different?
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > > Â
> > > > Loyaulte me lie
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Richard Yahoo <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 8:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Â
> > > > "The 15th century writer of the Croyland Chronicle wrote disapprovingly of â¬Üthe goings-onâ¬" at court during Christmas in 1484. The writer says that he was unable to account for many of the activities â¬Sbecause it is shameful to speak of them⬠â¬" but is particularly critical of the dancing, festivity and â¬Svain changes of apparel⬠of Queen Anne and Elizabeth of York, Richard IIIâ¬"s niece."
> > > >
> > > > What does the vain changes of apparel means? That they changed clothes in the span of a day? What woman would be caught dead wearing same dress two days in a row?!
> > > >
> > > > Ooh, I have always wondered about Anne and Eof Y wearing clothes made of same material and the furor it caused! Why was it considered so scandalous? And to mean R was romancing his niece?
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:20 PM, "wednesday_mc" <mailto:wednesday.mac%40gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
> > > > >
> > > > > I wish peace and good will to everyone -- including the King, wherever he may be -- this holiday season. I also envy Richard's raucousness as I head north into snow and quiet boredom for Christmas. See you next week.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Weds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

But now we know that Richard was negotiating to marry Elizabeth off to Manuel, Duke of Breja, of Portugal, who later became the Portuguese king. In addition, Richard took the unusual step of issuing a statement explicitly denying that he wanted to marry his niece. I suspect that that rumour issued from the Woodville camp  either a post-pubescent Elizabeth, who was attracted to the most powerful man in the room, or her manipulative mama. That's just my suspicion, but to my knowledge, there is absolutely no positive evidence that Richard wanted to marry Elizabeth. Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was so contentious; I don't think he would have made the same mistake, with the additional aggravating factor of the close blood relationship and age difference between the two.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:33 PM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)





It was suggested Richard used it as an excuse because he was after Elizabeth.


________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:27
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)


Hi, Liz 

If it was pretty clear that Anne was dying, I would think there would be orders for Richard to stay away from her bed (and bedchamber). If she had discharges (of whatever variety) I would think that would result in the same restrictions. Though I really know zippo-zip-nada about this issue. That would seem like common sense to protect the sovereign. But, in addition, I seem to recall that this was one of the things reported by the Croyland Continuator and used to assail Richard with. Do I recall correctly?

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne



<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb2Zqcjc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NjQ1NjgwOA--> Visit Your Group

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PS  It makes absolutely no sense, considering Richard's claim of title through the legitimate line from Edward III that he would have wanted to breach convention in such a way, with a girl that had just been declared a bastard by his parliament.



That's my view on it, anyway. It would have been stupid, and Richard was not stupid. I think it would have been like waving a red flag at all sort of factions.



I do tend to think Richard was done in in part because he could be occasionally ruthless, but wasn't entirely without conscience (in other words, he wasn't ruthless enough), and because there were too many expert manipulators lined up against him.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Johanne Tournier
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:47 PM
To:
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)





But now we know that Richard was negotiating to marry Elizabeth off to Manuel, Duke of Breja, of Portugal, who later became the Portuguese king. In addition, Richard took the unusual step of issuing a statement explicitly denying that he wanted to marry his niece. I suspect that that rumour issued from the Woodville camp  either a post-pubescent Elizabeth, who was attracted to the most powerful man in the room, or her manipulative mama. That's just my suspicion, but to my knowledge, there is absolutely no positive evidence that Richard wanted to marry Elizabeth. Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was so contentious; I don't think he would have made the same mistake, with the additional aggravating factor of the close blood relationship and age difference between the two.

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>

or jltournier@... <mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:33 PM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

It was suggested Richard used it as an excuse because he was after Elizabeth.


________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:27
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

Hi, Liz 

If it was pretty clear that Anne was dying, I would think there would be orders for Richard to stay away from her bed (and bedchamber). If she had discharges (of whatever variety) I would think that would result in the same restrictions. Though I really know zippo-zip-nada about this issue. That would seem like common sense to protect the sovereign. But, in addition, I seem to recall that this was one of the things reported by the Croyland Continuator and used to assail Richard with. Do I recall correctly?

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb2Zqcjc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NjQ1NjgwOA--> Visit Your Group

<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdDM3aDhiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU2NDU2ODA4> Yahoo! Groups

Switch to: <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com> ?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com> ?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> ?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com> ?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback

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Johanne, I totally agree with you.  It was just malicious rumour spready by Richard's enemies.



________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:47
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

 
But now we know that Richard was negotiating to marry Elizabeth off to Manuel, Duke of Breja, of Portugal, who later became the Portuguese king. In addition, Richard took the unusual step of issuing a statement explicitly denying that he wanted to marry his niece. I suspect that that rumour issued from the Woodville camp  either a post-pubescent Elizabeth, who was attracted to the most powerful man in the room, or her manipulative mama. That's just my suspicion, but to my knowledge, there is absolutely no positive evidence that Richard wanted to marry Elizabeth. Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was so contentious; I don't think he would have made the same mistake, with the additional aggravating factor of the close blood relationship and age difference between the two.

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com

or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:33 PM
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

It was suggested Richard used it as an excuse because he was after Elizabeth.


________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:27
Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)

Hi, Liz 

If it was pretty clear that Anne was dying, I would think there would be orders for Richard to stay away from her bed (and bedchamber). If she had discharges (of whatever variety) I would think that would result in the same restrictions. Though I really know zippo-zip-nada about this issue. That would seem like common sense to protect the sovereign. But, in addition, I seem to recall that this was one of the things reported by the Croyland Continuator and used to assail Richard with. Do I recall correctly?

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

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I agree with both Liz and Johanne.
But why would anyone concoct something of that nature? Why his niece of all people? Were they close? That could have given people the wrong impression.......
If Anne was suffering from some kind of food poisoning, could that be a reason for the " poisoning" rumor?

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 25, 2012, at 1:27 PM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

> Johanne, I totally agree with you. It was just malicious rumour spready by Richard's enemies.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:47
> Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
>
> But now we know that Richard was negotiating to marry Elizabeth off to Manuel, Duke of Breja, of Portugal, who later became the Portuguese king. In addition, Richard took the unusual step of issuing a statement explicitly denying that he wanted to marry his niece. I suspect that that rumour issued from the Woodville camp  either a post-pubescent Elizabeth, who was attracted to the most powerful man in the room, or her manipulative mama. That's just my suspicion, but to my knowledge, there is absolutely no positive evidence that Richard wanted to marry Elizabeth. Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was so contentious; I don't think he would have made the same mistake, with the additional aggravating factor of the close blood relationship and age difference between the two.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
>
> or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of liz williams
> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:33 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
> It was suggested Richard used it as an excuse because he was after Elizabeth.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:27
> Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
> Hi, Liz 
>
> If it was pretty clear that Anne was dying, I would think there would be orders for Richard to stay away from her bed (and bedchamber). If she had discharges (of whatever variety) I would think that would result in the same restrictions. Though I really know zippo-zip-nada about this issue. That would seem like common sense to protect the sovereign. But, in addition, I seem to recall that this was one of the things reported by the Croyland Continuator and used to assail Richard with. Do I recall correctly?
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb2Zqcjc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NjQ1NjgwOA--> Visit Your Group
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkdDM3aDhiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzU2NDU2ODA4> Yahoo! Groups
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi, Ishita 

I think it's possible that something could have been concocted by Elizabeth of York, who I see as basically a gushy teenager. Or her mum, a case of wishful thinking, perhaps. Or, by one of the other factions, say, Morton, for instance, who would want to blacken Richard's name. The fact that there was no truth to it (except perhaps for some fondness between the two) is indicated by Richard's categorical denial and, as I mentioned, the marriage negotiations with Portugal which were not generally public knowledge.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Richard Yahoo
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 5:06 PM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)





I agree with both Liz and Johanne.
But why would anyone concoct something of that nature? Why his niece of all people? Were they close? That could have given people the wrong impression.......
If Anne was suffering from some kind of food poisoning, could that be a reason for the " poisoning" rumor?

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Dec 25, 2012, at 1:27 PM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@... <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com> > wrote:

> Johanne, I totally agree with you. It was just malicious rumour spready by Richard's enemies.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@... <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:47
> Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
>
> But now we know that Richard was negotiating to marry Elizabeth off to Manuel, Duke of Breja, of Portugal, who later became the Portuguese king. In addition, Richard took the unusual step of issuing a statement explicitly denying that he wanted to marry his niece. I suspect that that rumour issued from the Woodville camp  either a post-pubescent Elizabeth, who was attracted to the most powerful man in the room, or her manipulative mama. That's just my suspicion, but to my knowledge, there is absolutely no positive evidence that Richard wanted to marry Elizabeth. Edward's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was so contentious; I don't think he would have made the same mistake, with the additional aggravating factor of the close blood relationship and age difference between the two.
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com
>
> or mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:mailto:%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of liz williams
> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 1:33 PM
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
> It was suggested Richard used it as an excuse because he was after Elizabeth.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Johanne Tournier <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com%20%3cmailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> <mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com> >
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 December 2012, 17:27
> Subject: RE: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
> Hi, Liz 
>
> If it was pretty clear that Anne was dying, I would think there would be orders for Richard to stay away from her bed (and bedchamber). If she had discharges (of whatever variety) I would think that would result in the same restrictions. Though I really know zippo-zip-nada about this issue. That would seem like common sense to protect the sovereign. But, in addition, I seem to recall that this was one of the things reported by the Croyland Continuator and used to assail Richard with. Do I recall correctly?
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb2Zqcjc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzU1Mjc3OTEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1Mjk3MzMzBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM1NjQ1NjgwOA--> Visit Your Group
>
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>
> Switch to: <mailto:mailto:-traditional%40yahoogroups.com?subject=Change%20Delivery%20Format:%20Traditional> Text-Only, <mailto:mailto:-digest%40yahoogroups.com?subject=Email%20Delivery:%20Digest> Daily Digest " <mailto:mailto:-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> Unsubscribe " <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use " <mailto:mailto:ygroupsnotifications%40yahoogroups.com?subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20redesigned%20individual%20mail%20v1> Send us Feedback
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>
>
>
>
>
>

Doug wrote:

> I understand that there was a period during the Middle Ages when wine was produced in England in, basically, commercial quantities because of a lengthy period (several centuries) of quite warm temperatures. It was something along the lines of 1100 to about 1400, if my memory is good (hah!).
> If grape vines, why not peaches?

Carol responds:

I recently saw a TV program on the Little Ice Age that said the same thing. The Medieval Optimum, when wine was produced in England, lasted from roughly 950 to 1250 AC--exactly the right time frame for King John to die from a surfeit of English-grown peaches since he died in 1216 (and here I thought it was from "pure displeasure and melancholy" over Magna Carta and losing the Crown Jewels <wink!>). Actually, though, I think he already had dysentery and died of that, not a surfeit of peaches or poisoned plums.

In any case, the Medieval Optimum was followed (though not immediately) by the Little Ice Age, which lasted from about 1350 to about 1850 (or, in terms of reigns, from Edward III to Victoria--and, of course, included the whole Yorkist-Lancastrian-Tudor era. I've wondered for a long time how the Little Ice Age affected the growing of strawberries in England. Could they really have ripened in June in 1483?)

carol

Wednesday wrote:
>
> Nice detailed commentary on 15th-century Christmas customs, and also points out that those criticizing the court's festivities were churchmen.
>
> http://www.medievalists.net/2012/12/21/richard-iiis-raucous-christmas-parties/
<snip>

Carol responds:

This thread seems to have gone off topic, so I'm returning to the original post.

I'm wondering where Janet Forbes, a person quoted in the article, got the idea that Thomas Langton (a cleric who praised and admired Richard) criticized his "raucous" Christmas party of 1484. Also, she states that Richard "spread rumors" about Edward IV's licentious court in contrast to his own virtuous behavior, making Richard sound like a hypocrite. I suspect that the "rumors" may be the comments made by the Three Estates in Titulus Regius, and, in any case, Richard's behavior *was* virtuous in comparison with Edward's so far as we know. Even Mancini spoke of his good reputation with regard to his private life.

I'm quite sure that Richard's Christmas parties followed the traditions of the day, including "vain changes of apparel" that the Croyland Chronicler (wearing his seasonal clerical robes) sneered at only because Richard was Richard, ignoring similar (and probably more raucous parties) by Edward IV. I don't have access to the Latin original, so I don't know whether "vain" refers to vanity (the women's pride in their appearance) or futility, but I suspect the latter--he thought that it was all a frivolous waste of time better spent in church. People have actually accused Richard of having an anachronistic Puritanical streak, but I think our sourpuss Chronicler has him beat.

Let Richard and Anne enjoy themselves at Christmas and forget their sorrow for awhile--or at least give their courtiers the enjoyable time that they would expect from their monarch.

Carol

Anyway, with such friends as this Janet Forbes person, who needs enemies?

Because they had not been discovered yet!
Although its botanical name Prunus persica refers to Persia (present Iran) from where it came to Europe, genetic studies suggest peaches originated in China,[5] where they have been cultivated since the early days of Chinese culture, circa 2000 BCE.[6][7] Peaches were mentioned in Chinese writings as far back as the 10th century BCE and were a favoured fruit of kings and emperors. As of late, the history of cultivation of peaches in China has been extensively reviewed citing numerous original manuscripts dating back to 1100 BCE.[8]
The peach was brought to India and Western Asia in ancient times.[9] Peach cultivation also went from China, through Persia, and reached Greece by 300 BCE.[7] Alexander the Great introduced the fruit into Europe after he conquered the Persians.[9] Peaches were well known to the Romans in first century AD,[7] and was cultivated widely in Emilia-Romagna. Peach tree is portrayed in the domuswall paintings of the towns destroyed by the Vesuvius eruption of 79 AD, with the oldest artistic representations of peach fruit, discovered so far, are in the two fragments of wall paintings, dated back to the 1st century AD, in Herculaneum, now preserved in the National Archaeological Museum in Naples.[10]
Peach was brought to the Americas by Spanish explorers in the 16th century, and eventually made it to England and France in the 17th century, where it was a prized and expensive treat. The horticulturist George Minifie supposedly brought the first peaches from England to its North American colonies in the early 17th century, planting them at his Estate of Buckland in Virginia.[11] Although Thomas Jefferson had peach trees at Monticello, United States farmers did not begin commercial production until the 19th century in Maryland, Delaware, Georgia and finally Virginia.
In April 2010, an International Consortium, The International Peach Genome Initiative (IPGI), that include researchers from USA, Italy, Chile, Spain and France announced they had sequenced the peach tree genome (doubled haploid Lovell).[12] [13][14] (wiki)

Peaches do not last well once ripe or bruised neither refrigeration nor rapid transport were available as the roman system had long gone into decay, though I suppose he could have purchased them from Fortnum and Masons?
George


Sent from my iPad

On Dec 26, 2012, at 3:40 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

> Doug wrote:
>
> > I understand that there was a period during the Middle Ages when wine was produced in England in, basically, commercial quantities because of a lengthy period (several centuries) of quite warm temperatures. It was something along the lines of 1100 to about 1400, if my memory is good (hah!).
> > If grape vines, why not peaches?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I recently saw a TV program on the Little Ice Age that said the same thing. The Medieval Optimum, when wine was produced in England, lasted from roughly 950 to 1250 AC--exactly the right time frame for King John to die from a surfeit of English-grown peaches since he died in 1216 (and here I thought it was from "pure displeasure and melancholy" over Magna Carta and losing the Crown Jewels <wink!>). Actually, though, I think he already had dysentery and died of that, not a surfeit of peaches or poisoned plums.
>
> In any case, the Medieval Optimum was followed (though not immediately) by the Little Ice Age, which lasted from about 1350 to about 1850 (or, in terms of reigns, from Edward III to Victoria--and, of course, included the whole Yorkist-Lancastrian-Tudor era. I've wondered for a long time how the Little Ice Age affected the growing of strawberries in England. Could they really have ripened in June in 1483?)
>
> carol
>
>

I read in a presumably reliable textual source just recently that John died from indulging in some lamprey eels that had been brought from the Continent and were in a poor state of preservation. Unfortunately, when this came up here on the Forum, I went looking and couldn't find the reference. But it does seem to me that spoiled lampreys seem to be a more likely cause of food poisoning than spoiled peaches  even if they had been available in England at the time! <grin>



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of George Butterfield
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:05 PM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)





Because they had not been discovered yet!
Although its botanical name Prunus persica refers to Persia (present Iran) from where it came to Europe, genetic studies suggest peaches originated in China,[5] where they have been cultivated since the early days of Chinese culture, circa 2000 BCE.[6][7] Peaches were mentioned in Chinese writings as far back as the 10th century BCE and were a favoured fruit of kings and emperors. As of late, the history of cultivation of peaches in China has been extensively reviewed citing numerous original manuscripts dating back to 1100 BCE.[8]
The peach was brought to India and Western Asia in ancient times.[9] Peach cultivation also went from China, through Persia, and reached Greece by 300 BCE.[7] Alexander the Great introduced the fruit into Europe after he conquered the Persians.[9] Peaches were well known to the Romans in first century AD,[7] and was cultivated widely in Emilia-Romagna. Peach tree is portrayed in the domuswall paintings of the towns destroyed by the Vesuvius eruption of 79 AD, with the oldest artistic representations of peach fruit, discovered so far, are in the two fragments of wall paintings, dated back to the 1st century AD, in Herculaneum, now preserved in the National Archaeological Museum in Naples.[10]
Peach was brought to the Americas by Spanish explorers in the 16th century, and eventually made it to England and France in the 17th century, where it was a prized and expensive treat. The horticulturist George Minifie supposedly brought the first peaches from England to its North American colonies in the early 17th century, planting them at his Estate of Buckland in Virginia.[11] Although Thomas Jefferson had peach trees at Monticello, United States farmers did not begin commercial production until the 19th century in Maryland, Delaware, Georgia and finally Virginia.
In April 2010, an International Consortium, The International Peach Genome Initiative (IPGI), that include researchers from USA, Italy, Chile, Spain and France announced they had sequenced the peach tree genome (doubled haploid Lovell).[12] [13][14] (wiki)

Peaches do not last well once ripe or bruised neither refrigeration nor rapid transport were available as the roman system had long gone into decay, though I suppose he could have purchased them from Fortnum and Masons?
George

Sent from my iPad

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=21623/stime=1356563106/nc1=3848614/nc2=5008817/nc3=4025373>

Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> I read in a presumably reliable textual source just recently that John died from indulging in some lamprey eels that had been brought from the Continent and were in a poor state of preservation. Unfortunately, when this came up here on the Forum, I went looking and couldn't find the reference. But it does seem to me that spoiled lampreys seem to be a more likely cause of food poisoning than spoiled peaches â€" even if they had been available in England at the time! <grin>

Carol responds:

Are you sure that you're not thinking of Henry I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England

And for pure silliness with a little juvenile humor, there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9uIcs2ck6Q

It would be odd if John died of the same exotic cause as his great-grandfather (Henry I/Matilda/Henry II/John).

I seem to recall that Sharon Kay Penman has him die of food poisoning or some similar cause soon after he loses the Crown Jewels in the river, but I don't remember the details. It wasn't lampreys, though, I'm fairly sure.

Carol

Thank you Johanne I feel exonerated I also believe that he died in Wakefield castle but that bit I am not too sure about!
George

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 26, 2012, at 6:25 PM, Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...> wrote:

> I read in a presumably reliable textual source just recently that John died from indulging in some lamprey eels that had been brought from the Continent and were in a poor state of preservation. Unfortunately, when this came up here on the Forum, I went looking and couldn't find the reference. But it does seem to me that spoiled lampreys seem to be a more likely cause of food poisoning than spoiled peaches  even if they had been available in England at the time! <grin>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of George Butterfield
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:05 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
> Because they had not been discovered yet!
> Although its botanical name Prunus persica refers to Persia (present Iran) from where it came to Europe, genetic studies suggest peaches originated in China,[5] where they have been cultivated since the early days of Chinese culture, circa 2000 BCE.[6][7] Peaches were mentioned in Chinese writings as far back as the 10th century BCE and were a favoured fruit of kings and emperors. As of late, the history of cultivation of peaches in China has been extensively reviewed citing numerous original manuscripts dating back to 1100 BCE.[8]
> The peach was brought to India and Western Asia in ancient times.[9] Peach cultivation also went from China, through Persia, and reached Greece by 300 BCE.[7] Alexander the Great introduced the fruit into Europe after he conquered the Persians.[9] Peaches were well known to the Romans in first century AD,[7] and was cultivated widely in Emilia-Romagna. Peach tree is portrayed in the domuswall paintings of the towns destroyed by the Vesuvius eruption of 79 AD, with the oldest artistic representations of peach fruit, discovered so far, are in the two fragments of wall paintings, dated back to the 1st century AD, in Herculaneum, now preserved in the National Archaeological Museum in Naples.[10]
> Peach was brought to the Americas by Spanish explorers in the 16th century, and eventually made it to England and France in the 17th century, where it was a prized and expensive treat. The horticulturist George Minifie supposedly brought the first peaches from England to its North American colonies in the early 17th century, planting them at his Estate of Buckland in Virginia.[11] Although Thomas Jefferson had peach trees at Monticello, United States farmers did not begin commercial production until the 19th century in Maryland, Delaware, Georgia and finally Virginia.
> In April 2010, an International Consortium, The International Peach Genome Initiative (IPGI), that include researchers from USA, Italy, Chile, Spain and France announced they had sequenced the peach tree genome (doubled haploid Lovell).[12] [13][14] (wiki)
>
> Peaches do not last well once ripe or bruised neither refrigeration nor rapid transport were available as the roman system had long gone into decay, though I suppose he could have purchased them from Fortnum and Masons?
> George
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> .
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=5527791/grpspId=1705297333/msgId=21623/stime=1356563106/nc1=3848614/nc2=5008817/nc3=4025373>
>
>
>
>

Hi, Carol 

I don't think so, as I recall the juxtaposition of King John + lamprey eels in what I was reading. I would feel better, however, if I could find the reference. The only way it might have been Henry I is if there were more than one king mentioned, and I conflated John and Henry. I am sure, however, that I did not read anything about John dying from a surfeit of spoiled peaches, until it was mentioned here.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:04 PM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)





Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> I read in a presumably reliable textual source just recently that John died from indulging in some lamprey eels that had been brought from the Continent and were in a poor state of preservation. Unfortunately, when this came up here on the Forum, I went looking and couldn't find the reference. But it does seem to me that spoiled lampreys seem to be a more likely cause of food poisoning than spoiled peaches â¬" even if they had been available in England at the time! <grin>

Carol responds:

Are you sure that you're not thinking of Henry I?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England

And for pure silliness with a little juvenile humor, there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9uIcs2ck6Q

It would be odd if John died of the same exotic cause as his great-grandfather (Henry I/Matilda/Henry II/John).

I seem to recall that Sharon Kay Penman has him die of food poisoning or some similar cause soon after he loses the Crown Jewels in the river, but I don't remember the details. It wasn't lampreys, though, I'm fairly sure.

Carol

Carol wrote:


"I recently saw a TV program on the Little Ice Age that said the same thing.
The Medieval Optimum, when wine was produced in England, lasted from roughly
950 to 1250 AC--exactly the right time frame for King John to die from a
surfeit of English-grown peaches since he died in 1216 (and here I thought
it was from "pure displeasure and melancholy" over Magna Carta and losing
the Crown Jewels <wink!>). Actually, though, I think he already had
dysentery and died of that, not a surfeit of peaches or poisoned plums.

In any case, the Medieval Optimum was followed (though not immediately) by
the Little Ice Age, which lasted from about 1350 to about 1850 (or, in terms
of reigns, from Edward III to Victoria--and, of course, included the whole
Yorkist-Lancastrian-Tudor era. I've wondered for a long time how the Little
Ice Age affected the growing of strawberries in England. Could they really
have ripened in June in 1483?)"

Oh good, I got it right! Thanks, Carol!
As for the (in)famous strawberries, I don't see why not. The biggest
impediment to growing strawberries in England would be too much rain during
the early growth period and once the fruit had formed. I understood that,
rather than longer than usual winters, during the Little Ice Age it was more
much lower temperatures during the usual winter months. I think...
However, I do know that, even during the Little Ice Age, peach trees could
be grown in England in sheltered spots facing south. I believe the trees
were esplaniered (sp?) so that they'd only be the thickness of one branch
while spreading out over a wall that would soak up heat during the day. I
imagine such they would sort of look like roses growing on a trellis, rather
fan-shaped?
However, even though peaches could be grown during the early Middle Ages, I
wouldn't think they'd be widespread and thus more likely to be blamed for
any illness because of their rarity.
I mean, after all, doesn't EVERONE overdo on eels at one time or another?
Doug

Is the forum getting my posts? I sent a post a number of days ago referencing Henry I and the surfeit of lampreys he is said to have died of?
Paul

On 27 Dec 2012, at 12:44, Johanne Tournier wrote:

> Hi, Carol 
>
> I don't think so, as I recall the juxtaposition of King John + lamprey eels in what I was reading. I would feel better, however, if I could find the reference. The only way it might have been Henry I is if there were more than one king mentioned, and I conflated John and Henry. I am sure, however, that I did not read anything about John dying from a surfeit of spoiled peaches, until it was mentioned here.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of justcarol67
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:04 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous Christmas Parties (sic)
>
>
>
>
>
> Johanne Tournier wrote:
>>
>> I read in a presumably reliable textual source just recently that John died from indulging in some lamprey eels that had been brought from the Continent and were in a poor state of preservation. Unfortunately, when this came up here on the Forum, I went looking and couldn't find the reference. But it does seem to me that spoiled lampreys seem to be a more likely cause of food poisoning than spoiled peaches â¬" even if they had been available in England at the time! <grin>
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Are you sure that you're not thinking of Henry I?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I_of_England
>
> And for pure silliness with a little juvenile humor, there's this:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9uIcs2ck6Q
>
> It would be odd if John died of the same exotic cause as his great-grandfather (Henry I/Matilda/Henry II/John).
>
> I seem to recall that Sharon Kay Penman has him die of food poisoning or some similar cause soon after he loses the Crown Jewels in the river, but I don't remember the details. It wasn't lampreys, though, I'm fairly sure.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Good morning, Paul!
Well, I got this email, but looking back at about your last ten emails, I
didn't see a reference off-hand to Henry I and lampreys. Perhaps you would
like to re-send it.

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Trevor
Bale
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 5:53 AM
To:
Subject: Re: ARTICLE: Richard III's Raucous
Christmas Parties (sic)

Is the forum getting my posts? I sent a post a number of days ago
referencing Henry I and the surfeit of lampreys he is said to have died of?
Paul

On 27 Dec 2012, at 12:44, Johanne Tournier wrote:

> Hi, Carol -
>
> I don't think so, as I recall the juxtaposition of King John + lamprey
eels in what I was reading. I would feel better, however, if I could find
the reference. The only way it might have been Henry I is if there were more
than one king mentioned, and I conflated John and Henry. I am sure, however,
that I did not read anything about John dying from a surfeit of spoiled
peaches, until it was mentioned here.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>

Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> Is the forum getting my posts? I sent a post a number of days ago referencing Henry I and the surfeit of lampreys he is said to have died of?
> Paul

Carol responds:

Paul, I did an advanced site search using your name and Henry I and found this one:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/21580

There may be others. Maybe you could use "surfeit" or "lampreys" as a search term instead?

Carol

Don't underestimate the power of Deadly Fruit! The USA
lost President Zachary Taylor to that demon fruit. I was
taught it was a "surfeit of strawberries and cream," but the
actual culprit was cherries and iced milk on a hot day. If
that holds up historically, then it makes just as much sense
as peaches killing off Henry.

I never liked peaches....

--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Carol wrote:
>
>
> "I recently saw a TV program on the Little Ice Age that said the same thing.
> The Medieval Optimum, when wine was produced in England, lasted from roughly
> 950 to 1250 AC--exactly the right time frame for King John to die from a
> surfeit of English-grown peaches since he died in 1216 (and here I thought
> it was from "pure displeasure and melancholy" over Magna Carta and losing
> the Crown Jewels <wink!>). Actually, though, I think he already had
> dysentery and died of that, not a surfeit of peaches or poisoned plums.
>
> In any case, the Medieval Optimum was followed (though not immediately) by
> the Little Ice Age, which lasted from about 1350 to about 1850 (or, in terms
> of reigns, from Edward III to Victoria--and, of course, included the whole
> Yorkist-Lancastrian-Tudor era. I've wondered for a long time how the Little
> Ice Age affected the growing of strawberries in England. Could they really
> have ripened in June in 1483?)"
>
> Oh good, I got it right! Thanks, Carol!
> As for the (in)famous strawberries, I don't see why not. The biggest
> impediment to growing strawberries in England would be too much rain during
> the early growth period and once the fruit had formed. I understood that,
> rather than longer than usual winters, during the Little Ice Age it was more
> much lower temperatures during the usual winter months. I think...
> However, I do know that, even during the Little Ice Age, peach trees could
> be grown in England in sheltered spots facing south. I believe the trees
> were esplaniered (sp?) so that they'd only be the thickness of one branch
> while spreading out over a wall that would soak up heat during the day. I
> imagine such they would sort of look like roses growing on a trellis, rather
> fan-shaped?
> However, even though peaches could be grown during the early Middle Ages, I
> wouldn't think they'd be widespread and thus more likely to be blamed for
> any illness because of their rarity.
> I mean, after all, doesn't EVERONE overdo on eels at one time or another?
> Doug
>

What's the thing about peaches? They have never been grown in any measurable quantities in the UK?
More people were recorded dying through witchcraft and dragons than peaches!
I would suggest reading comparative literature of R3 time just to see exactly what our medieval family experienced, rather than view the 15th century through 21st century eyes and opinions.
I feel that the Hollywood version of jolly old England is one that is taken far too seriously!
George

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 29, 2012, at 8:55 PM, "thepennywhistle" <thepennywhistle@...> wrote:

> Don't underestimate the power of Deadly Fruit! The USA
> lost President Zachary Taylor to that demon fruit. I was
> taught it was a "surfeit of strawberries and cream," but the
> actual culprit was cherries and iced milk on a hot day. If
> that holds up historically, then it makes just as much sense
> as peaches killing off Henry.
>
> I never liked peaches....
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Carol wrote:
> >
> >
> > "I recently saw a TV program on the Little Ice Age that said the same thing.
> > The Medieval Optimum, when wine was produced in England, lasted from roughly
> > 950 to 1250 AC--exactly the right time frame for King John to die from a
> > surfeit of English-grown peaches since he died in 1216 (and here I thought
> > it was from "pure displeasure and melancholy" over Magna Carta and losing
> > the Crown Jewels <wink!>). Actually, though, I think he already had
> > dysentery and died of that, not a surfeit of peaches or poisoned plums.
> >
> > In any case, the Medieval Optimum was followed (though not immediately) by
> > the Little Ice Age, which lasted from about 1350 to about 1850 (or, in terms
> > of reigns, from Edward III to Victoria--and, of course, included the whole
> > Yorkist-Lancastrian-Tudor era. I've wondered for a long time how the Little
> > Ice Age affected the growing of strawberries in England. Could they really
> > have ripened in June in 1483?)"
> >
> > Oh good, I got it right! Thanks, Carol!
> > As for the (in)famous strawberries, I don't see why not. The biggest
> > impediment to growing strawberries in England would be too much rain during
> > the early growth period and once the fruit had formed. I understood that,
> > rather than longer than usual winters, during the Little Ice Age it was more
> > much lower temperatures during the usual winter months. I think...
> > However, I do know that, even during the Little Ice Age, peach trees could
> > be grown in England in sheltered spots facing south. I believe the trees
> > were esplaniered (sp?) so that they'd only be the thickness of one branch
> > while spreading out over a wall that would soak up heat during the day. I
> > imagine such they would sort of look like roses growing on a trellis, rather
> > fan-shaped?
> > However, even though peaches could be grown during the early Middle Ages, I
> > wouldn't think they'd be widespread and thus more likely to be blamed for
> > any illness because of their rarity.
> > I mean, after all, doesn't EVERONE overdo on eels at one time or another?
> > Doug
> >
>
>

Absolutely George! Well said.
Paul

On 30 Dec 2012, at 18:11, George Butterfield wrote:

> What's the thing about peaches? They have never been grown in any measurable quantities in the UK?
> More people were recorded dying through witchcraft and dragons than peaches!
> I would suggest reading comparative literature of R3 time just to see exactly what our medieval family experienced, rather than view the 15th century through 21st century eyes and opinions.
> I feel that the Hollywood version of jolly old England is one that is taken far too seriously!
> George
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!