Archbishop Morton

Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.

I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.

He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.

It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary

Fascinating! I wish we Americans had more access to British broadcasting. So, John Morton's tomb was despoiled by Henry VIII? Another case of what goes around, comes around. Maire.

--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
>
> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>
> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
>
> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
>

Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...

Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...

Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?

Eileen

--- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
>
> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>
> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
>
> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
>

Hi All, Happy New year.
Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
Christine


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton


 

Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...

Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...

Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?

Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
>
> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>
> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
>
> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
>

Is it wrong and unchristian of me to feel diabolically gleeful?!! At least we found R3 and he will get a decent burial!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:11 PM, C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...> wrote:

> Hi All, Happy New year.
> Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
> Christine
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
>
> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> >
> > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >
> > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> >
> > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> >
>
>
>
>

Ah, that big Karmic Wheel...!

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton


 
Hi All, Happy New year.
Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
Christine


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton


 

Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...

Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...

Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?

Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
>
> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>
> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
>
> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
>

This makes me think of a very OT irony: Pharoh Akhenten built a new
capitalcity,
called Aket-Aten (which I have visited!), as a place to concentrate worship
for his monotheistic faith in the Aten. The religion came to nothing
within a generation or two; the capital was moved back to Thebes, and when
Horemheb became pharoh and commissioned his additions to his glory at
Karnak (which I have visited!), he ordered the city of Aket-Aten torn down
and the beautiful tiles of Akhenaten's palaces to be used as filler for the
walls of his own monument at Karnak. Thus Akhenaten and his city were
consigned
to oblivion, never to be known of again.

Fast forward many millennia. Digs are done at Karnak. Horemheb's walls,
in ruins, are looked into and the beautiful tiles of Aket-Aten had been almost
perfectly preserved. Much discovering and speculation, and uncovering
of dramas,
melodramas, questions and such all centering on Akhenaten, Nefertiti,
Tutankamen,
etc.

Can't you just see the ghost of Akhenaten thumbing his nose at Horemheb?

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Ah, that big Karmic Wheel...!
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
>
> Hi All, Happy New year.
> Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb
> damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds
> so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't
> think of a better result.
> Christine
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew
> that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up
> thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to
> allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the
> Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the
> damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat"
> <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but
> I do read all your posts.
> >
> > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan
> Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell
> song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey
> could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an
> overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable,
> especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas
> Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >
> > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other
> was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with
> the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated
> with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb
> despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the
> throne.
> >
> > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real
> winners, are there? Hilary
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

As I mentioned once before, the Wheel of Fortune was a very powerful symbol in those days, and when Dowager Duchess Cecily left her bed cover with this design to "the prince," it wasn't just some meaningless gesture, but then neither could the recipient complain, since the thing might also be interpreted as positive ("Congrats! etc."). But do I think she meant it as a compliment? Hmmm. More "passive/aggressive."  ;-) 

Morton rode the Wheel up, during life, but afterward...?

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton


 
Hi All, Happy New year.
Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
Christine


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton


 

Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...

Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...

Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?

Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
>
> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>
> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
>
> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
>

It may be unchristian but it's definitely not wrong!
 
Liz


________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:14
Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton

 
Is it wrong and unchristian of me to feel diabolically gleeful?!! At least we found R3 and he will get a decent burial!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:11 PM, C HOLMES <mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com> wrote:

> Hi All, Happy New year.
> Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
> Christine
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
>
> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> >
> > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >
> > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> >
> > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> >
>
>
>
>

Yes, and while we're OT, remember that what the sands of Tell El Amarna/Akhetaten itself preserved included that exquisite bust of Nefertiti now in Berlin (and we now know she didn't die when her name vanished from the records, and Smenkhare's showed up...weirdly bearing the same Nefer-Nefer-u-Aten moniker). 

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: Maria Torres <ejbronte@...>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton

This makes me think of a very OT irony:  Pharoh Akhenten built a new
capitalcity,
called Aket-Aten (which I have visited!), as a place to concentrate worship
for his monotheistic faith in the Aten.  The religion came to nothing
within a generation or two; the capital was moved back to Thebes, and when
Horemheb became pharoh and commissioned his additions to his glory at
Karnak (which I have visited!), he ordered the city of Aket-Aten torn down
and the beautiful tiles of Akhenaten's palaces to be used as filler for the
walls of his own monument at Karnak.  Thus Akhenaten and his city were
consigned
to oblivion, never to be known of again.

Fast forward many millennia.  Digs are done at Karnak.  Horemheb's walls,
in ruins, are looked into and the beautiful tiles of Aket-Aten had been almost
perfectly preserved.  Much discovering and speculation, and uncovering
of dramas,
melodramas, questions and such all centering on Akhenaten, Nefertiti,
Tutankamen,
etc.

Can't you just see the ghost of Akhenaten thumbing his nose at Horemheb?

Maria
ejbronte@...

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Judy Thomson
<judygerard.thomson@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Ah, that big Karmic Wheel...!
>
> Judy
>
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...>
> To: "" <
> >
> Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
>
> Hi All, Happy New year.
> Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb
> damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds
> so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't
> think of a better result.
> Christine
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew
> that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up
> thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to
> allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the
> Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the
> damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat"
> <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but
> I do read all your posts.
> >
> > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan
> Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell
> song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey
> could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an
> overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable,
> especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas
> Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >
> > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other
> was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with
> the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated
> with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb
> despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the
> throne.
> >
> > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real
> winners, are there? Hilary
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>






------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Christine, Liz and all...Happy New Year...

So...Morton's bones were scattered!!..Excellent!

But....I cannot help wondering why? Was it just a part of the en-masse and wanton destruction that took place, and a callous oversight on Fat Henry's part or was there more behind it....?

Eileen

--- In , liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
>
> It may be unchristian but it's definitely not wrong!
>  
> Liz
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
> To: "" <>
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:14
> Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>  
> Is it wrong and unchristian of me to feel diabolically gleeful?!! At least we found R3 and he will get a decent burial!
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:11 PM, C HOLMES <mailto:christineholmes651%40btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi All, Happy New year.
> > Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
> > Christine
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB <mailto:cherryripe.eileenb%40googlemail.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> > Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
> >
> > Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
> >
> > Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> > >
> > > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> > >
> > > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> > >
> > > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Eileen wrote:
>
> Hi Christine, Liz and all...Happy New Year...
>
> So...Morton's bones were scattered!!..Excellent!
>
> But....I cannot help wondering why? Was it just a part of the en-masse and wanton destruction that took place, and a callous oversight on Fat Henry's part or was there more behind it....?

Carol responds:

I don't know how authentic this source is, but it states that the Roundheads (Puritans) were behind it and that someone took Morton's head as a souvenir (ghastly idea in more respects than one):

http://www.isoldemartyn.com/index.php/component/k2/item/55-the-case-of-the-missing-head

Evidently, the skull ended up at Stonyhurst College and was sent off to a lab for analysis. Their findings seem consistent with its being Morton's skull except that Morton was about eighty, not sixty-five to seventy, when he died. The article mentions Richard and Buckingham (no anti-Richard bias) and notes that Buckingham's ghost ostensibly haunts Debenham's department store in Salisbury.

Enjoy.

Carol

________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:14
Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton


 
Is it wrong and unchristian of me to feel diabolically gleeful?!! At least we found R3 and he will get a decent burial!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:11 PM, C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...> wrote:

> Hi All, Happy New year.
> Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
> Christine
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
>
> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> >
> > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >
> > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> >
> > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> >
>
>
>
>

Ishita
Unless you know something that no one else knows it has not been confirmed that the person found is R3!!
G

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 3, 2013, at 1:18 AM, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Richard Yahoo bandyoi@...>
> To: "" >
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:14
> Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>
> Is it wrong and unchristian of me to feel diabolically gleeful?!! At least we found R3 and he will get a decent burial!
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:11 PM, C HOLMES christineholmes651@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi All, Happy New year.
> > Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
> > Christine
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> > Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
> >
> > Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
> >
> > Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> > >
> > > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> > >
> > > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> > >
> > > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Eileen,

It was quite a way in , in the bit (unsurprisingly) about the Reformation. The adornments he was referring to were above the tomb, but, as someone else on here said, the glimpse we got of the face showed it to be despoiled as well.

BTW no-one ever mentions (and he didn't either) that one of the biggest casualties of the Reformation was music. I discovered that when wanting to listen to some music of Richard's time. There isn't any - you have to go to Bruges (where one Robert Morton composed) or France or Spain. I suppose it's obvious really, but the Church was custodian of music. English liturgical music was apparently famous in the 'Middle Ages'. It, and dance music, all went with the Reformation.

It made me slam a few doors when I found that out - having been made in the mists of time to write an essay on the 'renaissance' of music under the Tudors. 22 Aug 1485 was indeed a sad day for poor old England and the Tudors were masters at PR. Cheers Hilary

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> >
> > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >
> > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> >
> > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> >
>

I actually found myself spitting on his grave last time I was in Canterbury. Happened before I realised I was doing it. Instinct. My friend was outraged, until I explained why!
Paul


On 2 Jan 2013, at 18:55, EileenB wrote:

> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>>
>> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
>>
>> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>>
>> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
>>
>> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Nice one Maria! :-)

Paul
On 2 Jan 2013, at 20:35, Maria Torres wrote:

> This makes me think of a very OT irony: Pharoh Akhenten built a new
> capitalcity,
> called Aket-Aten (which I have visited!), as a place to concentrate worship
> for his monotheistic faith in the Aten. The religion came to nothing
> within a generation or two; the capital was moved back to Thebes, and when
> Horemheb became pharoh and commissioned his additions to his glory at
> Karnak (which I have visited!), he ordered the city of Aket-Aten torn down
> and the beautiful tiles of Akhenaten's palaces to be used as filler for the
> walls of his own monument at Karnak. Thus Akhenaten and his city were
> consigned
> to oblivion, never to be known of again.
>
> Fast forward many millennia. Digs are done at Karnak. Horemheb's walls,
> in ruins, are looked into and the beautiful tiles of Aket-Aten had been almost
> perfectly preserved. Much discovering and speculation, and uncovering
> of dramas,
> melodramas, questions and such all centering on Akhenaten, Nefertiti,
> Tutankamen,
> etc.
>
> Can't you just see the ghost of Akhenaten thumbing his nose at Horemheb?
>
> Maria
> ejbronte@...
>
> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Judy Thomson
> <judygerard.thomson@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Ah, that big Karmic Wheel...!
>>
>> Judy
>>
>> Loyaulte me lie
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: C HOLMES <christineholmes651@...>
>> To: "" <
>> >
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi All, Happy New year.
>> Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb
>> damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds
>> so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't
>> think of a better result.
>> Christine
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
>> To:
>> Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
>> Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>>
>> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>>
>> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew
>> that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up
>> thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to
>> allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the
>> Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the
>> damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>>
>> Eileen
>>
>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat"
>> <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but
>> I do read all your posts.
>>>
>>> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan
>> Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell
>> song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey
>> could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an
>> overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable,
>> especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas
>> Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>>>
>>> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other
>> was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with
>> the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated
>> with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb
>> despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the
>> throne.
>>>
>>> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real
>> winners, are there? Hilary
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Well done Paul, next time do one for me please.
Loyaute me Lie
Christine


________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2013, 10:18
Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton


 

I actually found myself spitting on his grave last time I was in Canterbury. Happened before I realised I was doing it. Instinct. My friend was outraged, until I explained why!
Paul

On 2 Jan 2013, at 18:55, EileenB wrote:

> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>
>> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
>>
>> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
>>
>> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
>>
>> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Well...it is the type of grave one feels like dancing on.......:0/
Eileen

--- In , C HOLMES wrote:
>
> Well done Paul, next time do one for me please.
> Loyaute me Lie
> Christine
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2013, 10:18
> Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>  
>
> I actually found myself spitting on his grave last time I was in Canterbury. Happened before I realised I was doing it. Instinct. My friend was outraged, until I explained why!
> Paul
>
> On 2 Jan 2013, at 18:55, EileenB wrote:
>
> > Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
> >
> > Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
> >
> > Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>
> >> Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> >>
> >> I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >>
> >> He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> >>
> >> It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>

Oops. No I don't know a single thing about it. Just hoping!when the heck are we going to find out for sure? !!!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 3, 2013, at 1:23 AM, George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:

> Ishita
> Unless you know something that no one else knows it has not been confirmed that the person found is R3!!
> G
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 3, 2013, at 1:18 AM, Pamela Furmidge pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Richard Yahoo bandyoi@...>
> > To: ">
> > Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 20:14
> > Subject: Re: Re: Archbishop Morton
> >
> >
> >
> > Is it wrong and unchristian of me to feel diabolically gleeful?!! At least we found R3 and he will get a decent burial!
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Jan 2, 2013, at 3:11 PM, C HOLMES christineholmes651@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All, Happy New year.
> > > Eileen, I have it on good authority that not only was Morton's tomb damaged during the reformation but his bone were scatered to the four winds so he does not have a final resting place at least in one piece., Can't think of a better result.
> > > Christine
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 January 2013, 18:55
> > > Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
> > >
> > > Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
> > >
> > > Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> > > >
> > > > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> > > >
> > > > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Thank you for sharing this, Hilary.  I found this really interesting and had never really thought about the Catholic church in that way.  That would make a fascinating topic for research.

Regards,
Dorothea



________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton


 
Hi Eileen,

It was quite a way in , in the bit (unsurprisingly) about the Reformation. The adornments he was referring to were above the tomb, but, as someone else on here said, the glimpse we got of the face showed it to be despoiled as well.

BTW no-one ever mentions (and he didn't either) that one of the biggest casualties of the Reformation was music. I discovered that when wanting to listen to some music of Richard's time. There isn't any - you have to go to Bruges (where one Robert Morton composed) or France or Spain. I suppose it's obvious really, but the Church was custodian of music. English liturgical music was apparently famous in the 'Middle Ages'. It, and dance music, all went with the Reformation.

It made me slam a few doors when I found that out - having been made in the mists of time to write an essay on the 'renaissance' of music under the Tudors. 22 Aug 1485 was indeed a sad day for poor old England and the Tudors were masters at PR. Cheers Hilary

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
>
> Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
>
> Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> >
> > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> >
> > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
> >
> > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
> >
>

Dorothea,

How I agree. I think we'll never really get to grips with what the Reformation cost England. Hilary

--- In , Dorothea Preis wrote:
>
>
>
> Thank you for sharing this, Hilary.  I found this really interesting and had never really thought about the Catholic church in that way.  That would make a fascinating topic for research.
>
> Regards,
> Dorothea
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, 3 January 2013 9:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Archbishop Morton
>
>
>  
> Hi Eileen,
>
> It was quite a way in , in the bit (unsurprisingly) about the Reformation. The adornments he was referring to were above the tomb, but, as someone else on here said, the glimpse we got of the face showed it to be despoiled as well.
>
> BTW no-one ever mentions (and he didn't either) that one of the biggest casualties of the Reformation was music. I discovered that when wanting to listen to some music of Richard's time. There isn't any - you have to go to Bruges (where one Robert Morton composed) or France or Spain. I suppose it's obvious really, but the Church was custodian of music. English liturgical music was apparently famous in the 'Middle Ages'. It, and dance music, all went with the Reformation.
>
> It made me slam a few doors when I found that out - having been made in the mists of time to write an essay on the 'renaissance' of music under the Tudors. 22 Aug 1485 was indeed a sad day for poor old England and the Tudors were masters at PR. Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Hi Hilary...and a Happy New Year to you too...
> >
> > Thanks...I will catch up with that programme on IPlayer...
> >
> > Regarding Morton's tomb getting knocked about a bit...Wow..Never knew that...I have actually stood near there but was not able to get close up thus missed the damage. Just goes to show how truly awful Fat Harry was to allow this to happen to the very man that enabled his father to steal the Crown..How ungrateful can you get?...although I did wonder whether the damage could have been done by Cromwellians....?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > > Happy New Year to you all. I'm sorry I don't get time to write much but I do read all your posts.
> > >
> > > I doubt whether many of you in the UK tuned in last night to watch Rowan Williams pay tribute to his beloved Canterbury Cathedral as his farewell song to being Archbishop. It was what the programme on Westminster Abbey could have been - a bit of archictecture, a bit of history and not an overkill of religion. Wish he'd do every cathedral; it was very watchable, especially when he says he has to stand in the exact spot where Thomas Becket was murdered to deliver the occasional service.
> > >
> > > He led us to a couple of 'Archbishop tombs'. One was H5's and the other was - John Morton, described as someone who combined the secular power with the religious. We were led to JMs because, although splendidly decorated with angels and Tudor roses, the angels had been beheaded and the tomb despoiled, all by the son of the man he'd helped to put and keep on the throne.
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> > > It made me realise that in Richard's story there are few longterm real winners, are there? Hilary
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