The White Princess

Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.

A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne: Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers??????? Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth. And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers , people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the history!!!

She seems to have a thing about incest.

Karen

From: bandyoi <bandyoi@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
To: <>
Subject: The White Princess






Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.

A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
history!!!

Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days.  After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!


________________________________
From: Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...>


 
She seems to have a thing about incest.

Karen

From: bandyoi bandyoi@...>
Reply-To: >
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
To: >
Subject: The White Princess

Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.

A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
history!!!

I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!


Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge <pamela.furmidge@...> wrote:

> Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...>
>
>
>
> She seems to have a thing about incest.
>
> Karen
>
> From: bandyoi bandyoi@...>
> Reply-To: >
> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> To: >
> Subject: The White Princess
>
> Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
>
> A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> history!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ishita Bandyo wrote:
"I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book,
The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the
dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and
Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y
lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?!
And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!"

There's two possibilities here. First, the "blurb" was written by someone in
the advertising/sales department and doesn't really represent what PG wrote.
Even though PG is a well-known and established author, she may not have the
final say on such things.
Second, she may have based her research on some of the most recently
published histories (Hicks?), presuming them to be accurate. NOT necessarily
a wise thing to do!
While Anne herself may not have been "center-stage" during many of the
occurrances, I would still presume she was close enough to those we know who
WERE actively involved to provide enough material for a novel without
"sexing it up"!
Thank you very much Mr. Blair (or his advisor)!)/snark/
Doug

Well we could all post on her FB page asking why she has done it when there is no historical evidence at all.   I can guarantee she won't reply (she doesn't seem to have replied to ANY question on her page on the occasions when I've looked at it, even the suck up ones like "you are a great author when is your next book coming out" (blaah.)
 
I know she is a best selling author but the whole FB page is "me me me".
 
Liz


________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 13:07
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge mailto:pamela.furmidge%40btinternet.com> wrote:

> Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Clark mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
>
>
>
> She seems to have a thing about incest.
>
> Karen
>
> From: bandyoi mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: The White Princess
>
> Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
>
> A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> history!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>

For Christmas, a friend who knows I love RIII gave me the audio version of Kingmaker's Daughter. Gulp...just said: Thanks. There was no gift receipt, and I'd rather not ruin a nice friendship, since she meant well ("Best Selling Author," etc. - how would she know w/o reading/listening?)

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 
Well we could all post on her FB page asking why she has done it when there is no historical evidence at all.   I can guarantee she won't reply (she doesn't seem to have replied to ANY question on her page on the occasions when I've looked at it, even the suck up ones like "you are a great author when is your next book coming out" (blaah.)
 
I know she is a best selling author but the whole FB page is "me me me".
 
Liz

________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo bandyoi@...>
To: "" >
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 13:07
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge mailto:pamela.furmidge%40btinternet.com> wrote:

> Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Clark mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
>
>
>
> She seems to have a thing about incest.
>
> Karen
>
> From: bandyoi mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: The White Princess
>
> Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
>
> A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> history!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Ishita,

It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.

However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.

It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
Cheers Hilary



--- In , Richard Yahoo wrote:
>
> I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
>
> > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: bandyoi bandyoi@...>
> > Reply-To: >
> > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > To: >
> > Subject: The White Princess
> >
> > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> >
> > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > history!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
 
 
Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
 
Liz
 
 


________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
Hi Ishita,

It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.

However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.

It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
Cheers Hilary

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
>
> I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
>
> > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: bandyoi bandyoi@...>
> > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: The White Princess
> >
> > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> >
> > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > history!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 

Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
 
 
Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
 
Liz
 
 

________________________________
From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
Hi Ishita,

It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.

However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.

It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
Cheers Hilary

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
>
> I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
>
> > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: bandyoi bandyoi@...>
> > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: The White Princess
> >
> > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> >
> > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > history!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Right behind you on this one ............

----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: The White Princess



Well we could all post on her FB page asking why she has done it when there is no historical evidence at all. I can guarantee she won't reply (she doesn't seem to have replied to ANY question on her page on the occasions when I've looked at it, even the suck up ones like "you are a great author when is your next book coming out" (blaah.)

I know she is a best selling author but the whole FB page is "me me me".

Liz

________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo bandyoi@...>
To: "" >
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 13:07
Subject: Re: The White Princess


I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge mailto:pamela.furmidge%40btinternet.com> wrote:

> Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
>
> ________________________________
> From: Karen Clark mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
>
>
>
> She seems to have a thing about incest.
>
> Karen
>
> From: bandyoi mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: The White Princess
>
> Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
>
> A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> history!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes - it doesn't have the scandal though does it and that seems to be what it's all about these days, rather than accuracy.
 
Sometimes I despair.


________________________________
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:20
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 

Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
 
 
Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
 
Liz
 
 

________________________________
From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
Hi Ishita,

It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.

However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.

It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
Cheers Hilary

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
>
> I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
>
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
>
> > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...>
> >
> >
> >
> > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: bandyoi bandyoi@...>
> > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: The White Princess
> >
> > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> >
> > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > history!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.

--- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams
> To: ""
> Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>  
>
> Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
>  
>  
> Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
>  
> Liz
>  
>  
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>  
> Hi Ishita,
>
> It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
>
> However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
>
> It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> >
> > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> >
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: The White Princess
> > >
> > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > >
> > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > history!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi, Ishita.

--- In , "bandyoi" wrote:
.
.
.
> Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers??????? Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth?


Because an illicit romance sells better than a faithful husband. Or maybe because, for PG, it's fun to write.

No conflict, no story. Are you going to buy it?

~Weds

Liz, I think writing on her page is a great idea. I will do the same! Hopefully some of the other members will do so too. Most of the other fictions about R treats E's infatuation as that of a young girl and does not make R the " lover"! I still wonder why PG would do it.....

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 4, 2013, at 11:11 AM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

> Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason. I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal. I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
>
>
> Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
>
> Liz
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
> Hi Ishita,
>
> It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
>
> However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
>
> It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> >
> > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> >
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@...>
> > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: The White Princess
> > >
> > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > >
> > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > history!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Weds,
I am sure I will:(( Anything about R is better than nothing, since now I have gone through all the available books on him( not scholarly but fictions and easy read non- fiction)! I am pathetic. But I will write on her fb page and complain nicely:)
You are back from Flagstaff?

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 4, 2013, at 11:39 AM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> Hi, Ishita.
>
> --- In , "bandyoi" wrote:
> .
> .
> .
> > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers??????? Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth?
>
> Because an illicit romance sells better than a faithful husband. Or maybe because, for PG, it's fun to write.
>
> No conflict, no story. Are you going to buy it?
>
> ~Weds
>
>

Hillary,
However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could
have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring
father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and
probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the
book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else
but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition).
Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it
together.
can you tell us about this? We are always told that Richard did not know his nephews well. I have trans;lated that into he did not know his neices either. Do we know how his relationship were with his nieces in general?
BTW, I wrote on PG's page. She might block and report me:) Kidding ! I was very ingratiating:)



________________________________
From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 
Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.

--- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
>
> Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams
> To: ""
> Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>  
>
> Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
>  
>  
> Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
>  
> Liz
>  
>  
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>  
> Hi Ishita,
>
> It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
>
> However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
>
> It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> >
> > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> >
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: The White Princess
> > >
> > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > >
> > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > history!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Ishita,

I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!

I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.

There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).

R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation

The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.

Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary




--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams
> > To: ""
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> >  
> >  
> > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> >  
> > Liz
> >  
> >  
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >  
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> >
> > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> >
> > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > >
> > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > >
> > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > history!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 
Hi Ishita,

I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!

I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.

There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).

R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation

The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.

Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams
> > To: ""
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> >  
> >  
> > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> >  
> > Liz
> >  
> >  
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >  
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> >
> > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> >
> > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > >
> > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > >
> > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > history!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I can cope with Woodville lovers,it's the Morton lovers I can't stand!
 
Liz


________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 18:32
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
Hi Ishita,

I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!

I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.

There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).

R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation

The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.

Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams
> > To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> >  
> >  
> > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> >  
> > Liz
> >  
> >  
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >  
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> >
> > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> >
> > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > >
> > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > >
> > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > history!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Thanks so much, Hilary! I find these tiny details the most interesting aspects of Richard's story. Two signatures on the same page: what could it mean? No wonder novelists never get tired of writing about the him. So elusive but so intriguig! Maire.

--- In , Judy Thomson wrote:
>
> Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>  
> Hi Ishita,
>
> I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
>
> I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
>
> There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
>
> R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
>
> The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
>
> Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > >
> > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: liz williams
> > > To: ""
> > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > >  
> > > Liz
> > >  
> > >  
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > >  
> > > Hi Ishita,
> > >
> > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > >
> > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > >
> > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > >
> > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > >
> > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > history!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I dare say they did as a Royal family have a lot of fun..What a fabulous lifestyle...and It would not be extraordinary in any way ....But that is not really an important issue here is it..?
Eileen

>
> There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
>
>

Sorry...I had to dash off there for a moment...What I wanted to add is that what really matters the most are events after E4's death...when it all went pear shaped with the pre-contract to Eleanor Butler (poor Eleanor) and everyone's actions afterwards...EW dashing into sanctuary, Titulus Regius etc., Eileen

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> I dare say they did as a Royal family have a lot of fun..What a fabulous lifestyle...and It would not be extraordinary in any way ....But that is not really an important issue here is it..?
> Eileen
>
> >
> > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> >
> >
>

Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?

Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....

But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
Ishita



________________________________
From: Judy Thomson <judygerard.thomson@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 
Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie

________________________________
From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 
Hi Ishita,

I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!

I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.

There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).

R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation

The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.

Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams
> > To: ""
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> >
> > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> >  
> >  
> > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> >  
> > Liz
> >  
> >  
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >  
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> >
> > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> >
> > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > >
> > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > >
> > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > history!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Karen Clark wrote:
>
> She [Philippa Gregory] seems to have a thing about incest.
>
Carol responds:

Too much reliance on Michael Hicks? Or maybe it's that letter quoted in Buck, which certainly *sounds* as if Elizabeth is in love with her uncle to readers who don't know about the Portuguese marriage plans. But to make them actual lovers and ignore Richard's protest that he loved his wife and had no plans to marry his niece . . . . Like too many other "historical" novelists, she's more interested in exploiting her material to make money than in historical accuracy.

Carol

Incest is ok provided you keep it in the family!!!!!
Quote M Python

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 4, 2013, at 3:33 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
> Karen Clark wrote:
> >
> > She [Philippa Gregory] seems to have a thing about incest.
> >
> Carol responds:
>
> Too much reliance on Michael Hicks? Or maybe it's that letter quoted in Buck, which certainly *sounds* as if Elizabeth is in love with her uncle to readers who don't know about the Portuguese marriage plans. But to make them actual lovers and ignore Richard's protest that he loved his wife and had no plans to marry his niece . . . . Like too many other "historical" novelists, she's more interested in exploiting her material to make money than in historical accuracy.
>
> Carol
>
>

Perhaps your statement of "me me me" just about sums up the author. Sadly she may have had all the best intentions but once she reads and accepts blindly her adoring public/ press advisor then she like so many before her become pawns to both money and "adoring public"
George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:54 AM, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:

> Well we could all post on her FB page asking why she has done it when there is no historical evidence at all. I can guarantee she won't reply (she doesn't seem to have replied to ANY question on her page on the occasions when I've looked at it, even the suck up ones like "you are a great author when is your next book coming out" (blaah.)
>
> I know she is a best selling author but the whole FB page is "me me me".
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Richard Yahoo bandyoi@...>
> To: "" >
> Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 13:07
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
> I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge mailto:pamela.furmidge%40btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Karen Clark mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: bandyoi mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>
> > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: The White Princess
> >
> > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> >
> > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > history!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I don't think she does her own research, Carol. I imagine it would be easier
to pick and choose which bits of which story to use and which to discard if
you're one or two steps removed from it. From people who have read more than
one of her books (unlike me), incest is a strong theme in most, if not all,
of them. Where she gets the idea that the countess of Warwick was locked in
a tower and forgotten, I can't begin to guess! The 'Richard planned to
divorce Anne and keep her lands' comes from a misreading of the relevant
Acts of Parliament.

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 20:33:57 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: The White Princess







Karen Clark wrote:
>
> She [Philippa Gregory] seems to have a thing about incest.
>
Carol responds:

Too much reliance on Michael Hicks? Or maybe it's that letter quoted in
Buck, which certainly *sounds* as if Elizabeth is in love with her uncle to
readers who don't know about the Portuguese marriage plans. But to make them
actual lovers and ignore Richard's protest that he loved his wife and had no
plans to marry his niece . . . . Like too many other "historical" novelists,
she's more interested in exploiting her material to make money than in
historical accuracy.

Carol

Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.

I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.

It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.

Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.

However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
Cheers Hilary

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
>
> Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
>
> But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> Ishita
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Judy Thomson
> To: ""
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>  
> Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>  
> Hi Ishita,
>
> I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
>
> I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
>
> There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
>
> R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
>
> The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
>
> Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > >
> > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: liz williams
> > > To: ""
> > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > >  
> > >  
> > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > >  
> > > Liz
> > >  
> > >  
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > >  
> > > Hi Ishita,
> > >
> > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > >
> > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > >
> > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > >
> > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > >
> > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > history!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Hilary...I wonder if MB passed the book on to EofY...Although I must prefer the mental image of Richard passing it on to his niece as a gift...which if it really is signed E the king's daughter makes it very likely...Eileen
--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.
>
> I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.
>
> It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.
>
> Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.
>
> However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
> >
> > Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
> >
> > But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Judy Thomson
> > To: ""
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> > Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
> >
> > Judy
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
> >
> > I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
> >
> > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> >
> > R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
> >
> > The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
> >
> > Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: liz williams
> > > > To: ""
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > > >  
> > > > Liz
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > > Hi Ishita,
> > > >
> > > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > > >
> > > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > > >
> > > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > > history!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

How I would love to see those signatures in the margin. Fascinating. I still think that it was a Richard "thing." Afterall, he did the same with his nephew. Maire.

--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.
>
> I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.
>
> It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.
>
> Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.
>
> However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
> >
> > Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
> >
> > But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Judy Thomson
> > To: ""
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> > Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
> >
> > Judy
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
> >
> > I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
> >
> > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> >
> > R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
> >
> > The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
> >
> > Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: liz williams
> > > > To: ""
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > > >  
> > > > Liz
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > > Hi Ishita,
> > > >
> > > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > > >
> > > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > > >
> > > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > > history!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

We can't be too surprised that Richard III was not part of the Henry VIII exhibition, after all he died long before Henry was born.  Elizabeth of York, on the other hand was Henry's mother so her inclusion is much more understandable.


________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>wrote:

 
Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.

I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.

It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.

Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.

However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
Cheers Hilary

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
>
> Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
>
> But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> Ishita
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Judy Thomson
> To: ""
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>  
> Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
>
> Judy
>  
> Loyaulte me lie
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>  
> Hi Ishita,
>
> I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
>
> I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
>
> There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
>
> R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
>
> The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
>
> Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > >
> > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: liz williams
> > > To: ""
> > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > >
> > > à
> > >
> > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.à I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!)àI àalso threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.à I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > > à
> > > à
> > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mindàin that caseà she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > > à
> > > Liz
> > > à
> > > à
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > > à
> > > Hi Ishita,
> > >
> > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > >
> > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > >
> > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > >
> > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > >
> > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > history!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Absolutely. I can buy the latter - I doubt MB passed much to anyone! My guess is he would have gone out of his way to be kind to them when they emerged from Sanctuary. Hilary

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
>
> Hi Hilary...I wonder if MB passed the book on to EofY...Although I must prefer the mental image of Richard passing it on to his niece as a gift...which if it really is signed E the king's daughter makes it very likely...Eileen
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.
> >
> > I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.
> >
> > It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.
> >
> > Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.
> >
> > However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > >
> > > Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
> > >
> > > Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
> > >
> > > But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Judy Thomson
> > > To: ""
> > > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > > Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
> > >
> > > Judy
> > >  
> > > Loyaulte me lie
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > > Hi Ishita,
> > >
> > > I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
> > >
> > > I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
> > >
> > > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> > >
> > > R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
> > >
> > > The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
> > >
> > > Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: liz williams
> > > > > To: ""
> > > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > > > >  
> > > > > Liz
> > > > >  
> > > > >  
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > > >
> > > > >  
> > > > > Hi Ishita,
> > > > >
> > > > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > > > >
> > > > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > > > history!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

In much the same way he seemed to be doing the same thing with his nephew Edward......No doubt Richard had a heavy heart when things changed so suddenly and dramatically with Stillington's news for both him and young Edward. Things in life are seldom either black or white...Eileen

--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Absolutely. I can buy the latter - I doubt MB passed much to anyone! My guess is he would have gone out of his way to be kind to them when they emerged from Sanctuary. Hilary
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Hilary...I wonder if MB passed the book on to EofY...Although I must prefer the mental image of Richard passing it on to his niece as a gift...which if it really is signed E the king's daughter makes it very likely...Eileen
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.
> > >
> > > I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.
> > >
> > > It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.
> > >
> > > Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.
> > >
> > > However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
> > > Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
> > > >
> > > > Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
> > > >
> > > > But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> > > > Ishita
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Judy Thomson
> > > > To: ""
> > > > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > > Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > >  
> > > > Loyaulte me lie
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > > Hi Ishita,
> > > >
> > > > I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
> > > >
> > > > I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
> > > >
> > > > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> > > >
> > > > R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
> > > >
> > > > The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
> > > >
> > > > Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: liz williams
> > > > > > To: ""
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Liz
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >  
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Hi Ishita,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > > > > history!!!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Well in a way. Because the EOY we see from 1483 to 1485 is a girl who has lost both her father and the prospect of being Queen of France. She is quite old for dynastic marriage (in those times) and arguably has less prospects, no longer being the 'King's daughter'. That could well influence how she behaves. What I find it hard to buy into is the quiet, saintly EOY - she was after all the daughter of EW and E4, two feisty (arguably sexy) people. And her grandmother Cis was by several accounts, no saint. Cheers Hilary


--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> I dare say they did as a Royal family have a lot of fun..What a fabulous lifestyle...and It would not be extraordinary in any way ....But that is not really an important issue here is it..?
> Eileen
>
> >
> > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> >
> >
>

Oh yes...I did get the point you were making....in my head though I went off on a bit of a tangent and strayed from the point you were making...apologies.

Getting back to what you have just posted though...I wonder if this image of EofY being 'quiet and saintly' comes from her later years after she was married to HT...as it has been said by a couple of writers that she was kept under by her mother-in-law. She's a bit like Anne Neville in some respects dont you think in that not an awful lot seems to be known about her....similarly Anne had strong parents so yes, you would think that would make them inclined to be strong women...I forget who said it but someone once said women are like teabags...you only know how strong they are when you put them in hot water...:0)
Eileen

--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
>
> Well in a way. Because the EOY we see from 1483 to 1485 is a girl who has lost both her father and the prospect of being Queen of France. She is quite old for dynastic marriage (in those times) and arguably has less prospects, no longer being the 'King's daughter'. That could well influence how she behaves. What I find it hard to buy into is the quiet, saintly EOY - she was after all the daughter of EW and E4, two feisty (arguably sexy) people. And her grandmother Cis was by several accounts, no saint. Cheers Hilary
>
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > I dare say they did as a Royal family have a lot of fun..What a fabulous lifestyle...and It would not be extraordinary in any way ....But that is not really an important issue here is it..?
> > Eileen
> >
> > >
> > > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Hilary said:


I find it hard to buy into is the quiet, saintly EOY - she was after all the daughter of EW and E4, two feisty (arguably sexy) people. And her grandmother Cis was by several accounts, no saint.


Liz: 

Me too, it just doesn't square with the timid little miss who was under the thumb of Margaret Beaufort and yet when you think of how her life changed so dramatically in a few years, maybe it knocked her sideways and she just caved in when overruled by such a strong character?  Or maybe she actually LIKED MB and was happy to just go along with whatever the Tudors wanted.  Alternatively maybe she was nothing like her parents and really was the timid miss  - it does happen after all.

>.I forget who said it but someone once said women are like
>teabags...you only know how strong they are when you put them in hot
>water...:0)

*** Love it Eileen - you have made my day:)))

Jac

Perhaps, in the way a strong King is usually succeeded by a weak one (Edward I and Edward II), the dominant personalities of EIV and EW overpowered EofY from the cradle?



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: The White Princess

 
Hilary said:

I find it hard to buy into is the quiet, saintly EOY - she was after all the daughter of EW and E4, two feisty (arguably sexy) people. And her grandmother Cis was by several accounts, no saint.

Liz: 

Me too, it just doesn't square with the timid little miss who was under the thumb of Margaret Beaufort and yet when you think of how her life changed so dramatically in a few years, maybe it knocked her sideways and she just caved in when overruled by such a strong character?  Or maybe she actually LIKED MB and was happy to just go along with whatever the Tudors wanted.  Alternatively maybe she was nothing like her parents and really was the timid miss  - it does happen after all.

That's a good point Merri....

--- In , Merri Ann Mc Lain wrote:
>
> Perhaps, in the way a strong King is usually succeeded by a weak one (Edward I and Edward II), the dominant personalities of EIV and EW overpowered EofY from the cradle?
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams
> To: ""
> Sent: Monday, January 7, 2013 7:54 AM
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>  
> Hilary said:
>
> I find it hard to buy into is the quiet, saintly EOY - she was after all the daughter of EW and E4, two feisty (arguably sexy) people. And her grandmother Cis was by several accounts, no saint.
>
> Liz: 
>
> Me too, it just doesn't square with the timid little miss who was under the thumb of Margaret Beaufort and yet when you think of how her life changed so dramatically in a few years, maybe it knocked her sideways and she just caved in when overruled by such a strong character?  Or maybe she actually LIKED MB and was happy to just go along with whatever the Tudors wanted.  Alternatively maybe she was nothing like her parents and really was the timid miss  - it does happen after all.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

That's what it makes it all the more fascinating and we shall probably never know. I just know I wouldn't have fancied MB as a mother-in-law, poor old H only got away from her by dying. Perhaps he paid for his victory in other ways?
Cheers Hilary


________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 7 January 2013, 15:54
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 

Hilary said:

I find it hard to buy into is the quiet, saintly EOY - she was after all the daughter of EW and E4, two feisty (arguably sexy) people. And her grandmother Cis was by several accounts, no saint.

Liz: 

Me too, it just doesn't square with the timid little miss who was under the thumb of Margaret Beaufort and yet when you think of how her life changed so dramatically in a few years, maybe it knocked her sideways and she just caved in when overruled by such a strong character?  Or maybe she actually LIKED MB and was happy to just go along with whatever the Tudors wanted.  Alternatively maybe she was nothing like her parents and really was the timid miss  - it does happen after all.

My apologies Eileen, I wasn't really making a point. It was just a supposition. Like all of us I honestly dunno. Hilary

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Oh yes...I did get the point you were making....in my head though I went off on a bit of a tangent and strayed from the point you were making...apologies.
>
> Getting back to what you have just posted though...I wonder if this image of EofY being 'quiet and saintly' comes from her later years after she was married to HT...as it has been said by a couple of writers that she was kept under by her mother-in-law. She's a bit like Anne Neville in some respects dont you think in that not an awful lot seems to be known about her....similarly Anne had strong parents so yes, you would think that would make them inclined to be strong women...I forget who said it but someone once said women are like teabags...you only know how strong they are when you put them in hot water...:0)
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well in a way. Because the EOY we see from 1483 to 1485 is a girl who has lost both her father and the prospect of being Queen of France. She is quite old for dynastic marriage (in those times) and arguably has less prospects, no longer being the 'King's daughter'. That could well influence how she behaves. What I find it hard to buy into is the quiet, saintly EOY - she was after all the daughter of EW and E4, two feisty (arguably sexy) people. And her grandmother Cis was by several accounts, no saint. Cheers Hilary
> >
> >
> > --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> > >
> > > I dare say they did as a Royal family have a lot of fun..What a fabulous lifestyle...and It would not be extraordinary in any way ....But that is not really an important issue here is it..?
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > >
> > > > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Pamela I would normally agree with you but there was a lot about the WOTR and one would have thought the Crown went straight from E4 to H7.

It was, however, the product of Dr Starkey and it was actually very good, particularly if you have an interest in Anne Boleyn. There were many things there not normally on public view. In fact there was so much it could be quite overwhelming unless you had a couple of days to spend. Hilary

--- In , Pamela Furmidge wrote:
>
> We can't be too surprised that Richard III was not part of the Henry VIII exhibition, after all he died long before Henry was born.  Elizabeth of York, on the other hand was Henry's mother so her inclusion is much more understandable.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat wrote:
>
>  
> Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.
>
> I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.
>
> It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.
>
> Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.
>
> However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
> >
> > Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.  Combined with  Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,  might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
> >
> > But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)  and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Judy Thomson
> > To: ""
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> > Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
> >
> > Judy
> >  
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdat hjnatdat@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> >  
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
> >
> > I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
> >
> > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> >
> > R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
> >
> > The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
> >
> > Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: liz williams
> > > > To: ""
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.  I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!) I  also threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.  I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mind in that case  she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > > >  
> > > > Liz
> > > >  
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: hjnatdat mailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > > Hi Ishita,
> > > >
> > > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > > >
> > > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > > >
> > > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: bandyoi bandyoi@>
> > > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > > history!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
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Hiliary - I didn't manage to get to the exhibition, but I did buy the catalogue - as you say, a lot of material not normally available.  Whatever his views about Richard, Dr Starkey is an excellent Tudor historian and has a great knack of putting over his subject.  His book and documentary about Elizabeth I was particularly good.  Pamela



________________________________
hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

 
Pamela I would normally agree with you but there was a lot about the WOTR and one would have thought the Crown went straight from E4 to H7.

It was, however, the product of Dr Starkey and it was actually very good, particularly if you have an interest in Anne Boleyn. There were many things there not normally on public view. In fact there was so much it could be quite overwhelming unless you had a couple of days to spend. Hilary

--- In , Pamela Furmidge wrote:
>
> We can't be too surprised that Richard III was not part of the Henry VIII exhibition, after all he died long before Henry was born.  Elizabeth of York, on the other hand was Henry's mother so her inclusion is much more understandable.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: hjnatdat wrote:
>
>  
> Sorry to be so long coming back to you - work gets in the way.
>
> I don't know whether there are any pictures but I have actually seen it - it's held in the British Library. It was on exhibition as part of the H8 exhibition and it was there because EOY's signatures are rare (I think it's signed E the king's daughter, so it's not posthumous) As the exhibition was set up by David Starkey there was actually no reference to R; his portrait was omitted from the whole thing - he did not exist!! My understanding is that most of R's books were grabbed by Margaret Beaufort so I doubt they were passed to EOY.
>
> It is weird - it's not on a title page, the signatures are just there together in the margin. It could have been a gift, she could have put it there when he had passed it to her. BUT it does look like two people looking at a book and writing their names as a kind of 'game'.
>
> Like Buck's letter, the interpretation of which hinges on punctuation, we shall never know.
>
> However, NONE of this indicates R was guilty of incest.
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , IshitaBandyo wrote:
> >
> > Hillary, thanks for the info! Is there any available image somewhere we can see? I was also wondering if there is any image of the letter from Elizabeth to Howard?
> >
> > Books were so expensive at that time, it would be a really expensive gift to give. And if R really did give it to E of Y as a gift himself it would show that he indeed was considerably affectionate towards his niece.à Combined withà Elizabeth's letter to John Howard,à might have resulted in those rumors? We cannot of course rule out Elizabeth's having a crush on a kind, valiant knight.....
> >
> > But writing a book and saying R and E being lovers does no good to R's reputation. He had been called a serial incester(why is that??)à and now this book will perpetuate the same idea. And I do hope the Society arms itself with historians and commentators for if and when the time comes. They can always sponsor programs on R in Discovery channel or NatGeo......
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Judy Thomson
> > To: ""
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> > à
> > Richard was unusual in that he wrote his name in books he owned. Later, we find EoY putting her name in her books. In the instance of the page with both signatures, it is likely E came into possession of it, either as a gift from her uncle or after his death. Of these, the "after death" scenario seems more likely, though whether as a bequest or by mere happenstance, we cannot know.
> >
> > Judy
> > à
> > Loyaulte me lie
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: hjnatdathjnatdat@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 12:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> >
> >
> > à
> > Hi Ishita,
> >
> > I'll have a go but I'm not as knowledgeable as some on here!
> >
> > I think they say that about nephew Edward because he had his own household at Ludlow where Rivers was in charge. It's always assumed, therefore, that he came under Woodville influence. But as some have pointed out (Susan Higginbottam for one) we don't really know that Richard hated the Woodvilles that much before 1483 - he spent an exile in Bruges with Rivers in 1471 and Rivers was by all accounts an educated, chivalric man. As for R junior, he was probably not old enough for R to know him that well anyway.
> >
> > There are accounts from foreign ambassadors (was it Poppelau, haven't got time to look it up?)that the royal family were charming - EW playing skittles with the children, E4 dancing with EOY, so till E4's death EOY seems to have had a very happy family life (and with the prospect of marrying the Dauphin as well until just before her father's death when the treaty broke down).
> >
> > R probably passed through London more than was thought (or that's what Josephine Wilkinson thinks, sorry folks), some could say just about enough to intrigue her, especially after her jilting and her father's death. Sanctuary in the Abbey must have been pretty dull too for a girl who would probably have been married at her age BUT all this is speculation
> >
> > The book with the writing is 'Tristan (Harleian 49 f 155) It has sigatures on the same page by R and EOY (rather poor hand). No-one knows why - some speculate that she was copying what he had done which is intriguing.
> >
> > Does this help a bit? I shall retreat before I'm accused of being a Woodville lover! Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary: Can you explain what you mean by Richard & Elizabeth writing on the same page? I may have misunderstood what you wrote but that sounds intriguing! Since he also wrote with little Edward, I wonder if this was Richard's "thing." Something schoolteacher-ish? Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Liz, I agree. That's where I was coming from. It still gives her a lot of scope.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: lizwilliams
> > > > To: ""
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:11
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Ã’â¬aà
> > > >
> > > > Well I left a message on her FB page asking if the blurb was correct and did it mean that she wasn't sticking to the history for some reason.Ã’â¬aà I made sure I didn't sound rude (I hope!)Ã’â¬aàI Ã’â¬aàalso threw in about the proposed marriage to Juana of Portugal.Ã’â¬aà I know she won't reply but her subscribers will see it and hopefully it will at least make people think.
> > > > Ã’â¬aà
> > > > Ã’â¬aà
> > > > Personally I think the real story has enough drama in it without making stuff up and she may be on Richard's side but to my mindÃ’â¬aàin that caseÃ’â¬aà she could write about E of Y having a crush, maybe Richard being nice to her and it being misinterpreted but not about him actually being her lover.
> > > > Ã’â¬aà
> > > > Liz
> > > > Ã’â¬aà
> > > > Ã’â¬aà
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: hjnatdatmailto:hjnatdat%40yahoo.com>
> > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Friday, 4 January 2013, 16:04
> > > > Subject: Re: The White Princess
> > > >
> > > > Ã’â¬aà
> > > > Hi Ishita,
> > > >
> > > > It's about what sells books and makes money - it's all about money not historical truth. People want drama, action etc. Jane Austen wouldn't have stood a chance. To make money (for your agent and publisher) you have to write for the population at large, not the few interested in the truth.
> > > >
> > > > However, I'm a little more open in my view about the EOY thing. It could have been a crush, she was eighteen, probably spoilt by an adoring father and R was, from what we can see, quite a handsome thirty-two and probably not as often at Court as most. Then there is the page in the book (I can't remember which one as I'm in the middle of something else but it was on display at the British Library in the H8 exhibition). Their writing is on the same page as though they have been studying it together.
> > > >
> > > > It by no means indicates that R reciprocated, in fact he was probably, as ever, quite an innocent in the these things. Not that I like PG's work, but I think she is on his side, and anyone of high profile who is must be useful to us.
> > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Richard Yahoo wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book, The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?! And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > IshitaBandyo
> > > > > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > > > > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > > > > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> > > > >
> > > > > On Jan 4, 2013, at 12:57 AM, Pamela Furmidge wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Perhaps that is what it takes to sell books these days. After the success of Fifty Shades, I am daily expecting to read that E4 and EW liked a bit of bondage too!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Karen Clark Ragged_staff@>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > She seems to have a thing about incest.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: bandyoibandyoi@>
> > > > > > Reply-To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 03:42:04 -0000
> > > > > > To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Subject: The White Princess
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just got my amazon notification that PG's new book The White Princess is
> > > > > > scheduled to be published in August. The snippet says This:
> > > > > > The White Princess opens as the news of the battle of Bosworth is brought to
> > > > > > Princess Elizabeth of York, who will learn not only which rival royal house
> > > > > > has triumphed, Tudor or York, but also which suitor she must marry: Richard
> > > > > > III her lover, or Henry Tudor her enemy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A princess from birth, Elizabeth fell in love with Richard III, though her
> > > > > > mother made an arranged betrothal for her with the pretender to the throne:
> > > > > > Henry Tudor. When Henry defeats Richard against all odds, Elizabeth has to
> > > > > > marry the man who murdered her lover in battle...... Etc etc
> > > > > > Why for god's sake does PG keeps saying E of Y and R3 were lovers???????
> > > > > > Does she do it on purpose to be lurid or just doesn't care about the truth.
> > > > > > And considering her Facebook page boasts 50k fans, and millions of readers ,
> > > > > > people all over the world are going to accept her story and not the
> > > > > > history!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>

--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" wrote:
>
> Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> "I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book,
> The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the
> dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and
> Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y
> lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?!
> And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!"
>
> There's two possibilities here. First, the "blurb" was written by someone in
> the advertising/sales department and doesn't really represent what PG wrote.
> Even though PG is a well-known and established author, she may not have the
> final say on such things.
> Second, she may have based her research on some of the most recently
> published histories (Hicks?), presuming them to be accurate. NOT necessarily
> a wise thing to do!
> While Anne herself may not have been "center-stage" during many of the
> occurrances, I would still presume she was close enough to those we know who
> WERE actively involved to provide enough material for a novel without
> "sexing it up"!
> Thank you very much Mr. Blair (or his advisor)!)/snark/
> Doug
>
Sorry to revive an old topic, but I just finished "The Kingmaker's Daughter". Don't worry, I didn't buy it, I borrowed it from the library. It was a hilarious work of FICTION and I was relieved to see she didn't make Richard into a total monster.

Anyway, in her notes at the end she says her next book will be about the Princes' sister Elizabeth, the secret lover of Richard III, thus leaving no doubt in my mind that is what awaits us in The White Princess, not some copywriter's exaggeration. Blah!

Again I apologize if this point has already been brought up, but I've not had time to read all the posts thoroughly lately.

We revisit topics so no worries there:)
Liz , Dorothea and myself wrote on PG's fb page about this but of course she never responded! Big surprise!
Poor poor Richard! He never seems to be able to catch a break!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 19, 2013, at 2:08 AM, "Angie" <gooble@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" wrote:
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > "I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book,
> > The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the
> > dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and
> > Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y
> > lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?!
> > And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!"
> >
> > There's two possibilities here. First, the "blurb" was written by someone in
> > the advertising/sales department and doesn't really represent what PG wrote.
> > Even though PG is a well-known and established author, she may not have the
> > final say on such things.
> > Second, she may have based her research on some of the most recently
> > published histories (Hicks?), presuming them to be accurate. NOT necessarily
> > a wise thing to do!
> > While Anne herself may not have been "center-stage" during many of the
> > occurrances, I would still presume she was close enough to those we know who
> > WERE actively involved to provide enough material for a novel without
> > "sexing it up"!
> > Thank you very much Mr. Blair (or his advisor)!)/snark/
> > Doug
> >
> Sorry to revive an old topic, but I just finished "The Kingmaker's Daughter". Don't worry, I didn't buy it, I borrowed it from the library. It was a hilarious work of FICTION and I was relieved to see she didn't make Richard into a total monster.
>
> Anyway, in her notes at the end she says her next book will be about the Princes' sister Elizabeth, the secret lover of Richard III, thus leaving no doubt in my mind that is what awaits us in The White Princess, not some copywriter's exaggeration. Blah!
>
> Again I apologize if this point has already been brought up, but I've not had time to read all the posts thoroughly lately.
>
>

Ishita
 
My daughter works for the Beeb and has seen a few extracts from the forthcoming 'White Queen'. Now as said daughter has also read the 'Sunne in Splendour' and didn't recognise it as being about the same people it doesn't give much cause for hope - but perhaps we always knew that?   Hilary


________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Cc: "" <>
Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2013, 16:23
Subject: Re: The White Princess


 

We revisit topics so no worries there:)
Liz , Dorothea and myself wrote on PG's fb page about this but of course she never responded! Big surprise!
Poor poor Richard! He never seems to be able to catch a break!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 19, 2013, at 2:08 AM, "Angie" mailto:gooble%40shaw.ca> wrote:

>
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Eugene Stamate" wrote:
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > "I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book,
> > The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the
> > dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and
> > Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y
> > lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?!
> > And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!"
> >
> > There's two possibilities here. First, the "blurb" was written by someone in
> > the advertising/sales department and doesn't really represent what PG wrote.
> > Even though PG is a well-known and established author, she may not have the
> > final say on such things.
> > Second, she may have based her research on some of the most recently
> > published histories (Hicks?), presuming them to be accurate. NOT necessarily
> > a wise thing to do!
> > While Anne herself may not have been "center-stage" during many of the
> > occurrances, I would still presume she was close enough to those we know who
> > WERE actively involved to provide enough material for a novel without
> > "sexing it up"!
> > Thank you very much Mr. Blair (or his advisor)!)/snark/
> > Doug
> >
> Sorry to revive an old topic, but I just finished "The Kingmaker's Daughter". Don't worry, I didn't buy it, I borrowed it from the library. It was a hilarious work of FICTION and I was relieved to see she didn't make Richard into a total monster.
>
> Anyway, in her notes at the end she says her next book will be about the Princes' sister Elizabeth, the secret lover of Richard III, thus leaving no doubt in my mind that is what awaits us in The White Princess, not some copywriter's exaggeration. Blah!
>
> Again I apologize if this point has already been brought up, but I've not had time to read all the posts thoroughly lately.
>
>

Urgh!! That sounds even worse than what we thought!

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 19, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

> Ishita
>
> My daughter works for the Beeb and has seen a few extracts from the forthcoming 'White Queen'. Now as said daughter has also read the 'Sunne in Splendour' and didn't recognise it as being about the same people it doesn't give much cause for hope - but perhaps we always knew that? Hilary
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Richard Yahoo bandyoi@...>
> To: "" >
> Cc: "" >
> Sent: Saturday, 19 January 2013, 16:23
> Subject: Re: The White Princess
>
>
>
>
> We revisit topics so no worries there:)
> Liz , Dorothea and myself wrote on PG's fb page about this but of course she never responded! Big surprise!
> Poor poor Richard! He never seems to be able to catch a break!
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Jan 19, 2013, at 2:08 AM, "Angie" mailto:gooble%40shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Eugene Stamate" wrote:
> > >
> > > Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > "I am not happy about it. Should we write her a letter ? In the other book,
> > > The Kingmaker's Daughter , she also alluded that R did not get the
> > > dispensation so he could divorce Anne and grab her lands. And Anne and
> > > Richard imprison Countess of Warwick. In this book she makes R and E of Y
> > > lovers..! If popular authors go on like this , how can R stand a chance?!
> > > And funny thing is she isn't even anti-Richard!!!"
> > >
> > > There's two possibilities here. First, the "blurb" was written by someone in
> > > the advertising/sales department and doesn't really represent what PG wrote.
> > > Even though PG is a well-known and established author, she may not have the
> > > final say on such things.
> > > Second, she may have based her research on some of the most recently
> > > published histories (Hicks?), presuming them to be accurate. NOT necessarily
> > > a wise thing to do!
> > > While Anne herself may not have been "center-stage" during many of the
> > > occurrances, I would still presume she was close enough to those we know who
> > > WERE actively involved to provide enough material for a novel without
> > > "sexing it up"!
> > > Thank you very much Mr. Blair (or his advisor)!)/snark/
> > > Doug
> > >
> > Sorry to revive an old topic, but I just finished "The Kingmaker's Daughter". Don't worry, I didn't buy it, I borrowed it from the library. It was a hilarious work of FICTION and I was relieved to see she didn't make Richard into a total monster.
> >
> > Anyway, in her notes at the end she says her next book will be about the Princes' sister Elizabeth, the secret lover of Richard III, thus leaving no doubt in my mind that is what awaits us in The White Princess, not some copywriter's exaggeration. Blah!
> >
> > Again I apologize if this point has already been brought up, but I've not had time to read all the posts thoroughly lately.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>