York House Books

Hi, While we wait .....

I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.

Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.

And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.

Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.

If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.

Hilary

Hilary,
From those of us who cannot afford the York House Books, thanks for sharing this insight into Richard.
Vickie

From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:06 AM
Subject: York House Books

 
Hi, While we wait .....

I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.

Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and
several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.

And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.

Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.

If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.

Hilary

Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?

Can't wait to get this book! Maire.


--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Hi, While we wait .....
>
> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
>
> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
>
> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
>
> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
>
> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
>
> Hilary
>

Hi Hilary...sorry...but where do you get these York House books...I assume from the Society...? Eileen

--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Hi, While we wait .....
>
> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
>
> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
>
> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
>
> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
>
> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
>
> Hilary
>

Its OK...I have found them...I think if anyone is interested in buying any of the books published by the Society you should get them before they sell out...after that they become hideously expensive..such as the Coronation Book...I have since tried to buy Memorials of the Wars of the Roses....it is now selling secondhand at £150...Yikes!

Eileen

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hi Hilary...sorry...but where do you get these York House books...I assume from the Society...? Eileen
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Hi, While we wait .....
> >
> > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> >
> > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> >
> > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> >
> > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> >
> > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> >
> > Hilary
> >
>

Hilary, they sound wonderful.



________________________________
From: hjnatdat <hjnatdat@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2013, 17:06
Subject: York House Books

 
Hi, While we wait .....

I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.

Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and
several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.

And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.

Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.

If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.

Hilary

Hi, Hilary -

Thanks so much for writing this! You're right that I questioned whether it
was worth getting records of a city council that only occasionally would
relate to Richard. I didn't realize that there would be a lot of
correspondence back and forth from him.



From what I have seen of Richard personally, "earnest" and "sincere" are two
of the words that seem most apropos to describe him. Like that motto that he
inscribed by his signature in *Ipomedon,* (the only known surviving copy in
the world), which tells the story of a perfect knight. Richard wrote in
French, "I have desired it so much!"



I really think he was incredibly capable and astute, as well as being
sincere and earnest. It may be, I surmise, that physically he was not
prepossessing (though the surviving portraits indicate that his features
were fairly attractive) and therefore had a strike against him in the
"parfit gentil knight" department right from the "get go," especially in
comparison with his brothers. Another thing, one could speculate that
perhaps Richard was a devious, manipulative schemer (as More and his
successors dub him), but I believe that his life history embodies his motto,
Loyaulte me lie. Baldwin, I know, suggests that Richard was scarred by the
early traumas he suffered. But he was (almost) eight years old when his
father and brother were killed; prior to that time he seems to have had a
peaceful and possibly idyllic early childhood. And the early years are the
most crucial for framing one's psychology. I believe (and of course this is
why I'm a Ricardian) than he was a more genuine, sincere figure than almost
any other nobleman or monarch of his era, or of any era before or since. And
I think that's in good part because for much of his early life, he was
"nobody special," and therefore I believe he remained in some ways a humble
figure. I believe the surviving evidence supports that psychological
interpretation of Richard better than do the alternative versions favoured
by anti-Ricardians known to us all. <smile>



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:07 PM
To:
Subject: York House Books





Hi, While we wait .....

I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was
worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to
justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's
become the most treasured of all my books.

Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or
Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to
meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York
city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a
marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about
cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies
a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he
always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and
he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple
of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham,
Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for
support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling
off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and
pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently
muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in
their lives when he died.

And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his
responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired
by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to
him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there
are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the
King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that
when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in
Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he
resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this
thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that
can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.

Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's
somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic
in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and
the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time
to get through it.

If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you
find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.

Hilary

Really...? That is beautiful....and its tells us so much about Richard and his determination and striving to live a good and noble life....Doesnt tie in with someone willing to bump off his brother's children does it?? Eileen

Like that motto that he
> inscribed by his signature in *Ipomedon,* (the only known surviving copy in
> the world), which tells the story of a perfect knight. Richard wrote in
> French, "I have desired it so much!"
>
>
>
>

Hi Eileen,
 
No, I googled them and it's from Abebooks in Dusseldorf - supposed to be secondhand but like brand new.  Hilary


________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2013, 17:48
Subject: Re: York House Books


 

Hi Hilary...sorry...but where do you get these York House books...I assume from the Society...? Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Hi, While we wait .....
>
> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
>
> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and
several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
>
> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
>
> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
>
> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
>
> Hilary
>

I do understand. I haven't 'confessed' yet!

--- In , Vickie Cook wrote:
>
> Hilary,
> From those of us who cannot afford the York House Books, thanks for sharing this insight into Richard.
> Vickie
>
> From: hjnatdat
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:06 AM
> Subject: York House Books
>
>  
> Hi, While we wait .....
>
> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
>
> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and
> several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
>
> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
>
> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
>
> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
>
> Hilary
>
>
>
>
>
>

Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.

One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary



--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
>
> Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Hi, While we wait .....
> >
> > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> >
> > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> >
> > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> >
> > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> >
> > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> >
> > Hilary
> >
>

Thanks Johanne.

He's certainly not mentioned on every page but it's also in what context he writes - like bothering to write when his mind is clearly on Clarence. Frustratingly, we don't get comments on the death of his son or Queen, but they could be lost (I think some of the papers got destroyed by floods) or in the mysterious Volume 2.

I agree with all that you say. I see him as an idealist in an age when there weren't many of those around. I think Michael Jones gets the closest to him in 'Bosworth'. He would have seen the Crown as God's affirmation that he was the one intended to 'put things right'. It was an entitlement passed down to the family by his father and fate had passed the batton to him.

Hidden away in Ross's E4 (sorry Paul!) is a snippet that E4 never left greater London after 1479. I found that astonishing. But it helps you understand R's much-maligned Progress - he was trying to put that right again!

But the book is worth it if you can afford it - for that heartrending Minute alone. Hilary


--- In , Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> Hi, Hilary -
>
> Thanks so much for writing this! You're right that I questioned whether it
> was worth getting records of a city council that only occasionally would
> relate to Richard. I didn't realize that there would be a lot of
> correspondence back and forth from him.
>
>
>
> From what I have seen of Richard personally, "earnest" and "sincere" are two
> of the words that seem most apropos to describe him. Like that motto that he
> inscribed by his signature in *Ipomedon,* (the only known surviving copy in
> the world), which tells the story of a perfect knight. Richard wrote in
> French, "I have desired it so much!"
>
>
>
> I really think he was incredibly capable and astute, as well as being
> sincere and earnest. It may be, I surmise, that physically he was not
> prepossessing (though the surviving portraits indicate that his features
> were fairly attractive) and therefore had a strike against him in the
> "parfit gentil knight" department right from the "get go," especially in
> comparison with his brothers. Another thing, one could speculate that
> perhaps Richard was a devious, manipulative schemer (as More and his
> successors dub him), but I believe that his life history embodies his motto,
> Loyaulte me lie. Baldwin, I know, suggests that Richard was scarred by the
> early traumas he suffered. But he was (almost) eight years old when his
> father and brother were killed; prior to that time he seems to have had a
> peaceful and possibly idyllic early childhood. And the early years are the
> most crucial for framing one's psychology. I believe (and of course this is
> why I'm a Ricardian) than he was a more genuine, sincere figure than almost
> any other nobleman or monarch of his era, or of any era before or since. And
> I think that's in good part because for much of his early life, he was
> "nobody special," and therefore I believe he remained in some ways a humble
> figure. I believe the surviving evidence supports that psychological
> interpretation of Richard better than do the alternative versions favoured
> by anti-Ricardians known to us all.
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:07 PM
> To:
> Subject: York House Books
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi, While we wait .....
>
> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was
> worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to
> justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's
> become the most treasured of all my books.
>
> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or
> Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to
> meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York
> city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a
> marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about
> cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies
> a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he
> always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and
> he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple
> of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham,
> Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for
> support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling
> off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and
> pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently
> muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in
> their lives when he died.
>
> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his
> responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired
> by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to
> him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there
> are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the
> King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that
> when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in
> Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he
> resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this
> thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that
> can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
>
> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's
> somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic
> in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and
> the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time
> to get through it.
>
> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you
> find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
>
> Hilary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.

--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
>
> One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
>
>
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> >
> > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> >
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > >
> > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > >
> > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > >
> > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > >
> > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > >
> > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > >
> > > Hilary
> > >
> >
>

At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> >
> > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > >
> > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > >
> > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > >
> > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > > >
> > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > >
> > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > >
> > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > >
> > > > Hilary
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.

--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> > >
> > > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > > >
> > > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > > >
> > > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > > > >
> > > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hilary
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Maire, Do you know any more about Vol 2? Is it the earlier bit or the 'missing bits'? I've never bought anything from the Society, didn't know they had that sort of shop. Perhaps I should look?

Hilary
--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> > > >
> > > > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hilary
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

It should be an interesting book, especially the part where he gets hacked
to death and paraded stripped in front of his enemies.

What exactly can a book about his horse do to help make children
understand the injustice of past history?

Stick to nice children's tales like the Brothers Grim wrote!!

George

PS I would suggest using Banksy for your drawings

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 10:18 AM
To:
Subject: Re: York House Books





I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's
book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info
(from real sources) on his household. Maire.

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than
the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it
because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is
REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working
Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and
harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think
they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking
around. Maire.
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took
about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and
is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it
covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web
so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> > >
> > > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of
minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R
obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll
realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes.
But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November
1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to
sort something out. Hilary
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume
you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at
the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > > >
> > > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > > >
> > > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked
whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I
managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One.
And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross
or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get
to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the
York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a
marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about
cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies
a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he
always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and
he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple
of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham,
Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for
support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling
off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and
pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently
muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in
their lives when he died.
> > > > >
> > > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who
takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked
and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there
are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them
out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support
me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say)
says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his
own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he
resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this
thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that
can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > > >
> > > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime
reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps
they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is
translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It
will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And
what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hilary
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

My first thought about E4 never leaving greater London again after 1479 was the ungracious, "Well, when the king is too fat to ride a horse, much less ride into battle...."



Hilary wrote:

> Hidden away in Ross's E4 (sorry Paul!) is a snippet that E4 never left greater London after 1479. I found that astonishing. But it helps you understand R's much-maligned Progress - he was trying to put that right again!

Hilary, all I could find out about Vol. 2 is that it is the "2nd register of Richard the III." Vol. 3 is "the 2nd register of Edward 5." Maire

--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
>
> Maire, Do you know any more about Vol 2? Is it the earlier bit or the 'missing bits'? I've never bought anything from the Society, didn't know they had that sort of shop. Perhaps I should look?
>
> Hilary
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > > At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> > > > >
> > > > > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hilary
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I hate to say Marie but I have a list of all the horses we know for certain Richard owned, and there is no White or Surrey amongst them! I think that was another of Shakespeare's imaginings.
Paul

On 11 Jan 2013, at 15:18, mairemulholland wrote:

> I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>
>> At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
>>
>> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
>>>
>>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
>>>>
>>>> One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, While we wait .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hilary
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Hi, Maire.

Please promise you won't let White Surrey eat the children of Middleham? One bite from a stallion, never mind a war-stallion....

Let's just say I'm amused whenever I hear a horse-mad little girl say, "I want a stallion!" No, child. You really, REALLY do not.

~Weds


--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> ... I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.

I was inspired by a pretty picture of Richard riding his magnificent white horse. When I say children's story, I, of course, will try to avoid some of the worst aspects of Richard's life while focusing on the happy times. Of course, Bosworth will have to be dramatized. mm

--- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire.
>
> Please promise you won't let White Surrey eat the children of Middleham? One bite from a stallion, never mind a war-stallion....
>
> Let's just say I'm amused whenever I hear a horse-mad little girl say, "I want a stallion!" No, child. You really, REALLY do not.
>
> ~Weds
>
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > ... I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
>

John Ashdown Hill discusses this and - off the top of my head - he suggests Surrey could be a corruption of Syria, or something similar.  Was there a stable record somewhere or a listing of horses purchased?  I really can't remember and I don't have access to the book at the moment.  Of course, even if that's the case, it still wouldn't indicate what horse - or even what colour of horse - Richard rode at Bosworth.

Unlike George, though, I rather like the idea of a book focussing on one of Richard's horses, fictional or otherwise:

> What exactly can a book about his horse do to help make children
> understand the injustice of past history?

Probably a better question to ask of Michael Morpurgo...

Jonathan




________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 11 January 2013, 16:23
Subject: Re: Re: York House Books


 
I hate to say Marie but I have a list of all the horses we know for certain Richard owned, and there is no White or Surrey amongst them! I think that was another of Shakespeare's imaginings.
Paul

On 11 Jan 2013, at 15:18, mairemulholland wrote:

> I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>
>> At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
>>
>> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
>>>
>>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
>>>>
>>>> One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi, While we wait .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons
and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hilary
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Hi, George.

What happened to Richard is bad enough. What some accounts say Stanley's soldiers did to Richard's horse isn't something any rider would ever want to read about.

As far as what a book about Richard's horse could do to help make children understand the injustice of past history...a better choice might be to tell how the early crusaders were defeated when their enemies in the Holy Land unleashed Arabian mares in season upon them, and the war-stallions became...shall we call it unmanageable?

There's a book out there called "A Wind in Cairo" by Judith Tarr that has nothing to do with Richard, but it does feature a proud man transformed into a horse as punishment to his arrogance. I'd like to see a few of Richard's enemies transformed into horses. Draft horses, yeah.

~Weds

--- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
>
> It should be an interesting book, especially the part where he gets hacked to death and paraded stripped in front of his enemies.
>
> What exactly can a book about his horse do to help make children
> understand the injustice of past history?
>
> Stick to nice children's tales like the Brothers Grim wrote!!
>
> George

Please Paul...where did you find that? And please share it? How detailed is the list?

~Weds

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> I hate to say Marie but I have a list of all the horses we know for certain Richard owned, and there is no White or Surrey amongst them! I think that was another of Shakespeare's imaginings.
> Paul

I think it is an excellent idea. Why not get the children interested in Richard through a story with his horse? Marie need not go to the battle! She can stop
when Richard starts talking to his horse before the charge about their journey together since the horse was a colt and him a little boy trying to conquer its high spirit! Ahem. Sorry !
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 11, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Evans <jmcevans98@...> wrote:

> John Ashdown Hill discusses this and - off the top of my head - he suggests Surrey could be a corruption of Syria, or something similar. Was there a stable record somewhere or a listing of horses purchased? I really can't remember and I don't have access to the book at the moment. Of course, even if that's the case, it still wouldn't indicate what horse - or even what colour of horse - Richard rode at Bosworth.
>
> Unlike George, though, I rather like the idea of a book focussing on one of Richard's horses, fictional or otherwise:
>
> > What exactly can a book about his horse do to help make children
> > understand the injustice of past history?
>
> Probably a better question to ask of Michael Morpurgo...
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 11 January 2013, 16:23
> Subject: Re: Re: York House Books
>
>
>
> I hate to say Marie but I have a list of all the horses we know for certain Richard owned, and there is no White or Surrey amongst them! I think that was another of Shakespeare's imaginings.
> Paul
>
> On 11 Jan 2013, at 15:18, mairemulholland wrote:
>
> > I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>
> >> At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> >>
> >> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> >>>
> >>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> >>>>
> >>>> One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi, While we wait .....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons
> and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hilary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>

I know that White Surrey may be mythical. How can I find out the names of Richard's other horses? Maire.
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> I hate to say Marie but I have a list of all the horses we know for certain Richard owned, and there is no White or Surrey amongst them! I think that was another of Shakespeare's imaginings.
> Paul
>
> On 11 Jan 2013, at 15:18, mairemulholland wrote:
>
> > I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>
> >> At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> >>
> >> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> >>>
> >>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> >>>>
> >>>> One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi, While we wait .....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hilary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

And who's to say they didn't return as horses? Or worse: Insects. ;-)

Judy
 
Loyaulte me lie


________________________________
From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: York House Books


 
Hi, George.

What happened to Richard is bad enough. What some accounts say Stanley's soldiers did to Richard's horse isn't something any rider would ever want to read about.

As far as what a book about Richard's horse could do to help make children understand the injustice of past history...a better choice might be to tell how the early crusaders were defeated when their enemies in the Holy Land unleashed Arabian mares in season upon them, and the war-stallions became...shall we call it unmanageable?

There's a book out there called "A Wind in Cairo" by Judith Tarr that has nothing to do with Richard, but it does feature a proud man transformed into a horse as punishment to his arrogance. I'd like to see a few of Richard's enemies transformed into horses. Draft horses, yeah.

~Weds

--- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
>
> It should be an interesting book, especially the part where he gets hacked to death and paraded stripped in front of his enemies.
>
> What exactly can a book about his horse do to help make children
> understand the injustice of past history?
>
> Stick to nice children's tales like the Brothers Grim wrote!!
>
> George

Ta Maire - that could be useful because if it's E5 it could include some of the 'missing bits'

By the way don't give up on the children's book. One of the most influential books I read about R as a kid was Cynthia Harnett's 'Load of Unicorn' which is about Caxton (and I recall R is in it) Hilary

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> Hilary, all I could find out about Vol. 2 is that it is the "2nd register of Richard the III." Vol. 3 is "the 2nd register of Edward 5." Maire
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Maire, Do you know any more about Vol 2? Is it the earlier bit or the 'missing bits'? I've never bought anything from the Society, didn't know they had that sort of shop. Perhaps I should look?
> >
> > Hilary
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hilary
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Thanks, Hilary; I'll check out Harnett's Load of Unicorn! Maire.
--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Ta Maire - that could be useful because if it's E5 it could include some of the 'missing bits'
>
> By the way don't give up on the children's book. One of the most influential books I read about R as a kid was Cynthia Harnett's 'Load of Unicorn' which is about Caxton (and I recall R is in it) Hilary
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > Hilary, all I could find out about Vol. 2 is that it is the "2nd register of Richard the III." Vol. 3 is "the 2nd register of Edward 5." Maire
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Maire, Do you know any more about Vol 2? Is it the earlier bit or the 'missing bits'? I've never bought anything from the Society, didn't know they had that sort of shop. Perhaps I should look?
> > >
> > > Hilary
> > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hilary
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)


, "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> My first thought about E4 never leaving greater London again after 1479 was the ungracious, "Well, when the king is too fat to ride a horse, much less ride into battle...."
>
>
>
> Hilary wrote:
>
> > Hidden away in Ross's E4 (sorry Paul!) is a snippet that E4 never left greater London after 1479. I found that astonishing. But it helps you understand R's much-maligned Progress - he was trying to put that right again!
>

She wrote quite a few about the fifteenth century. One was about Dick Whittington (H5) called 'Ring Out Bow Bells' and another about the wool trade in the 1490s the name of which escapes me. Great on the details of town life and the Guilds. Hilary

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
>
> Thanks, Hilary; I'll check out Harnett's Load of Unicorn! Maire.
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Ta Maire - that could be useful because if it's E5 it could include some of the 'missing bits'
> >
> > By the way don't give up on the children's book. One of the most influential books I read about R as a kid was Cynthia Harnett's 'Load of Unicorn' which is about Caxton (and I recall R is in it) Hilary
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary, all I could find out about Vol. 2 is that it is the "2nd register of Richard the III." Vol. 3 is "the 2nd register of Edward 5." Maire
> > >
> > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Maire, Do you know any more about Vol 2? Is it the earlier bit or the 'missing bits'? I've never bought anything from the Society, didn't know they had that sort of shop. Perhaps I should look?
> > > >
> > > > Hilary
> > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi, While we wait .....
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and pidgeons and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hilary
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?

It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?

I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.

~Evil!Weds


--- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>
> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)

Hi Weds,

As Defense Counsel for our Eddie I'd say his health hasn't been that good since he got bitten by that mosquito in the Somme - the French had to take a secret revenge. Little brother is used to having a permanently sore backside from personally fulfilling all the high offices that Eddie has bestowed on him - not good at delegation. And anyway why would a king risk his neck teaching a few marauding barbarians a lesson?

Footnote: pity little brother didn't heed the latter advice at Bosworth!

(Did catch out Ross though - Eddie was in Fotheringhay when he made that decision AND he'd been to Dover)

Cheers Hilary

--- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
>
> It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
>
> I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
>
> ~Evil!Weds
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >
> > Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
>

The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
Paul
On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:

> But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
>
> It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
>
> I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
>
> ~Evil!Weds
>
>
> --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
>>
>> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

I've started digging in my Richard boxes! Luckily it is a very wet Saturday where I am!
Later
Paul

On 11 Jan 2013, at 16:42, wednesday_mc wrote:

> Please Paul...where did you find that? And please share it? How detailed is the list?
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>
>> I hate to say Marie but I have a list of all the horses we know for certain Richard owned, and there is no White or Surrey amongst them! I think that was another of Shakespeare's imaginings.
>> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

To me, there has always been a remarkable resemblance between Edward IV and Henry VIII. That may be one of the reasons I've always held off really appreciating Edward. Maire.

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> Paul
> On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
>
> > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
> >
> > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> >
> > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> >
> > ~Evil!Weds
> >
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>
> >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

Very true.  In fiction you may create whatever you like.  I will warn you, however, that horsemen (and that includes some surprisingly well-educated, horse-obsessed  children) will know what  is accurate for horse behavior and capabilities, and they can be surprisingly nit-picky.  Also, adults who loved horse stories as children still read whatever is published as a horse story, so be prepared for the potential that a portion of your readers may be annoying and point out inaccuracies to you.  So long as you are prepared for the inevitable negativities that seem to surround everything we do these days you should feel free to create what makes you happy.
~Penny


Re: Annette's Maligned King
Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am (PST) . Posted by:
"mairemulholland" mairemulholland
Well, the great thing about being a writer is that you can
bend the truth a bit. Yes, the war horse of Richard' s time was a
trained killer but I would get around that by making White Surrey loyal
only to Richard. I don't think a children' s book need be totally
accurate to reality - as long as it's detailed, lively and believeably
creates it's own world. Maire.



 
Live simply.  Love generously.  Care deeply.  Speak kindly.
        And never regret anything that made you smile.

Oh, as a playwright I know all about nitpicky! And I have the tiny scars to prove it.

I've been rereading all the children's books about horses that are in my house. Quite a few! Luckily, although I'm not a rider, I'm in the heart of horse country here in NJ and can observe them at leisure.
Maire
--- In , The Pennywhistle wrote:
>
> Very true.  In fiction you may create whatever you like.  I will warn you, however, that horsemen (and that includes some surprisingly well-educated, horse-obsessed  children) will know what  is accurate for horse behavior and capabilities, and they can be surprisingly nit-picky.  Also, adults who loved horse stories as children still read whatever is published as a horse story, so be prepared for the potential that a portion of your readers may be annoying and point out inaccuracies to you.  So long as you are prepared for the inevitable negativities that seem to surround everything we do these days you should feel free to create what makes you happy.
> ~Penny
>
>
> Re: Annette's Maligned King
> Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am (PST) . Posted by:
> "mairemulholland" mairemulholland
> Well, the great thing about being a writer is that you can
> bend the truth a bit. Yes, the war horse of Richard' s time was a
> trained killer but I would get around that by making White Surrey loyal
> only to Richard. I don't think a children' s book need be totally
> accurate to reality - as long as it's detailed, lively and believeably
> creates it's own world. Maire.
>
>
>
>  
> Live simply.  Love generously.  Care deeply.  Speak kindly.
>         And never regret anything that made you smile.
>
>
>

Hi, Hilary,

> As Defense Counsel for our Eddie I'd say his health hasn't been that good since he got bitten by that mosquito in the Somme - the French had to take a secret revenge.

Revenge? Surely not. Generosity mebbe? After all, Eddie and his companions were offered the best wine, the loveliest of pastries, and even more lovely gold pensions to make up for those nasty insects. One can only wonder why Little Brother refused all such rewards for touring France that year. Perhaps he was taken by a fever?

> Little brother is used to having a permanently sore backside from personally fulfilling all the high offices that Eddie has bestowed on him - not good at delegation.

Little Brother was still young and strong and pure and...oh, bother. I have it on good authority that Little Brother was a typical Libra and a quite earnest youngest son. Poor, sweet, slender peacemaker, incessantly try to right all wrongs, and silly (i.e., naive) enough to take those old knight's oaths seriously. He never got the message, "Chivalry is dead."

> And anyway why would a king risk his neck teaching a few marauding barbarians a lesson?
> Footnote: pity little brother didn't heed the latter advice at Bosworth!

"But the 'Teaching of Lessons to the Maurading Barbarians' always worked before," said Little Brother in great bewilderment.

I guess Eddie never taught Dickon to delegate. He did try teaching, "He who runs away lives to fight another day," but I guess Dickon didn't believe it?

And thus endeth the lesson. Or the lesson endeth the knight.

> (Did catch out Ross though - Eddie was in Fotheringhay when he made that decision AND he'd been to Dover)

::squeak!:: What the heck was Eddie doing in Dover? Or wasn't that a recent trip? And where does Ross have him?

::confused:: Did Eddie wear himself out by going south, turning around and going north, and then languish in Fotheringhay, refused to ride another league, before sending a message to his brother: "You go, Dickon. I'm just too tired. And, anyway, you're much better than me at thwacking barbarians." Or did he summon Little Brother to tell him the good news?

Why Fotheringhay, I wonder? Why not Nottingham? Was Fotheringhay the more comfy castle, or did it have... other attractions for Eddie?

I like Eddie, I do. I'm just sorry he left this world so soon, leaving a great impossible mess for Little Brother.

Older brothers -- bah. Older brothers who are also king -- double bah!

~Weds

Paul, I think it's absolutely wonderful that H7's son seems to have inherited the Plantagenet charisma, and H7 couldn't do a thing about it. Wasn't Henry his mother's favorite, too? Genetics are a wonderful thing, and so very non-negotiable.

And now that you mention it, I can see the grandsire in paintings of the grandson.

~Weds

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> Paul

I've often thought that E4 and H8 both had diabetes.  It is inherited and it would explain a lot.
Vickie

From: wednesday_mc <wednesday.mac@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: York House Books

 
Paul, I think it's absolutely wonderful that H7's son seems to have inherited the Plantagenet charisma, and H7 couldn't do a thing about it. Wasn't Henry his mother's favorite, too? Genetics are a wonderful thing, and so very non-negotiable.

And now that you mention it, I can see the grandsire in paintings of the grandson.

~Weds

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> Paul

Bah Weds you've made me dig out Ross again (double sorry Paul!!)

Eddie backed Alexander Duke of Albany (described as a Scottish Clarence) in his claim to the Scottish crown in return for Berwick and this was drawn up in a treaty at Fotheringhay on 11th June (Eddie and Albany got there together on 3rd) in vernacular Scottish (that sounds fun!!)and little brother joined them from the North (fresh from a successful raid in Scotland). Eddie said he was going to lead the Scottish campaign but was taken ill again and gave the command together with endorsed big title to little brother.

BUT Eddie, who said he was returning to London (for health reasons) then went to Dover to oversee the fleet. Could have been something to do with the fact that the Scottish campaign was doomed from lack of money and a dodgy Albany? Poor naive little brother.

Don't know why Fotheringhay, unless it was to do with the York connection. You're right Nottingham is much more on the route.

Do I like Eddie? I think he'd probably have bowled me over if I'd met him because he does seem to have had this very modern PR thing of being approachable, an understanding of 'business' and he was by all accounts a really hard worker on the admin parts of being a King. BUT he left the country in a mess because of his selfishness, vanity and his failure to tackle crucial issues (like HT's escapading in France and Brittany). And was he kind to much-more principled little brother?
I think he probably convinced himself that he was (vain people often do and little brother looked up to him for years) but no, he was selfish and just the opposite. Poor little brother!

Cheers Hilary


--- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> Hi, Hilary,
>
> > As Defense Counsel for our Eddie I'd say his health hasn't been that good since he got bitten by that mosquito in the Somme - the French had to take a secret revenge.
>
> Revenge? Surely not. Generosity mebbe? After all, Eddie and his companions were offered the best wine, the loveliest of pastries, and even more lovely gold pensions to make up for those nasty insects. One can only wonder why Little Brother refused all such rewards for touring France that year. Perhaps he was taken by a fever?
>
> > Little brother is used to having a permanently sore backside from personally fulfilling all the high offices that Eddie has bestowed on him - not good at delegation.
>
> Little Brother was still young and strong and pure and...oh, bother. I have it on good authority that Little Brother was a typical Libra and a quite earnest youngest son. Poor, sweet, slender peacemaker, incessantly try to right all wrongs, and silly (i.e., naive) enough to take those old knight's oaths seriously. He never got the message, "Chivalry is dead."
>
> > And anyway why would a king risk his neck teaching a few marauding barbarians a lesson?
> > Footnote: pity little brother didn't heed the latter advice at Bosworth!
>
> "But the 'Teaching of Lessons to the Maurading Barbarians' always worked before," said Little Brother in great bewilderment.
>
> I guess Eddie never taught Dickon to delegate. He did try teaching, "He who runs away lives to fight another day," but I guess Dickon didn't believe it?
>
> And thus endeth the lesson. Or the lesson endeth the knight.
>
> > (Did catch out Ross though - Eddie was in Fotheringhay when he made that decision AND he'd been to Dover)
>
> ::squeak!:: What the heck was Eddie doing in Dover? Or wasn't that a recent trip? And where does Ross have him?
>
> ::confused:: Did Eddie wear himself out by going south, turning around and going north, and then languish in Fotheringhay, refused to ride another league, before sending a message to his brother: "You go, Dickon. I'm just too tired. And, anyway, you're much better than me at thwacking barbarians." Or did he summon Little Brother to tell him the good news?
>
> Why Fotheringhay, I wonder? Why not Nottingham? Was Fotheringhay the more comfy castle, or did it have... other attractions for Eddie?
>
> I like Eddie, I do. I'm just sorry he left this world so soon, leaving a great impossible mess for Little Brother.
>
> Older brothers -- bah. Older brothers who are also king -- double bah!
>
> ~Weds
>

Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).

What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further, was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?

I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the 'Woodville' input.

Cheers Hilary

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> Paul
> On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
>
> > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
> >
> > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> >
> > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> >
> > ~Evil!Weds
> >
> >
> > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>
> >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his small son and his wife...

Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
Eileen
On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:

> Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
>
> What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further, was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
>
> I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the 'Woodville' input.
>
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > Paul
> > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> >
> > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
> > >
> > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > >
> > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > >
> > > ~Evil!Weds
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>
>

Hi Eileen, I was for a long time a bit with you about the 'depression' thing, but you have to square that with someone, who I think, (and it's only me!) thought they were on a mission ordained by God. JAH makes that point as well. I think it was him (not Jones) who spoke of R's thirst before the battle (it's one of those things that's so odd it must be right) and again, I think it's him who thought it could be the sweating sickness. But that (brought over we think by H7's troups) hadn't reached into the country that far by August and, as far as I know, put you out of action very fast.

It is intriguing. Was he just reckless? Or did he want to get it all over fast? He was, after all, an experienced soldier, not some rash young kid. Or did he think God would get him through? Like you, I would love to know, but doubt we ever will

Cheers Hilary

--- In , eileen bates wrote:
>
> Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his small son and his wife...
>
> Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
> Eileen
> On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:
>
> > Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
> >
> > What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further, was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
> >
> > I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the 'Woodville' input.
> >
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > > Paul
> > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> > >
> > > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
> > > >
> > > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > > >
> > > > ~Evil!Weds
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Hilary..another point to consider is that sometimes the result of battles could turn on a sixpence....if you get my drift. Of course what I know about battles etc.., you could print on a postage stamp....but take Towton...that, possibly, had a lot to do with the weather, the wind blowing the snow and sleet towards the larger Lancastrian forces so they were practicaly blinded. Didnt the French losing Agincourt have something to do with the French knights getting bogged down by the mud...and so forth.....Possibly the loss of a leader at the early stages was the beginning of the end...and didnt Norfolk get killed quite early at Bosworth....Just a thought...Eileen
On 13 Jan 2013, at 17:00, hjnatdat wrote:

> Hi Eileen, I was for a long time a bit with you about the 'depression' thing, but you have to square that with someone, who I think, (and it's only me!) thought they were on a mission ordained by God. JAH makes that point as well. I think it was him (not Jones) who spoke of R's thirst before the battle (it's one of those things that's so odd it must be right) and again, I think it's him who thought it could be the sweating sickness. But that (brought over we think by H7's troups) hadn't reached into the country that far by August and, as far as I know, put you out of action very fast.
>
> It is intriguing. Was he just reckless? Or did he want to get it all over fast? He was, after all, an experienced soldier, not some rash young kid. Or did he think God would get him through? Like you, I would love to know, but doubt we ever will
>
> Cheers Hilary
>
> --- In , eileen bates wrote:
> >
> > Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his small son and his wife...
> >
> > Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
> > Eileen
> > On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > > Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
> > >
> > > What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further, was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
> > >
> > > I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the 'Woodville' input.
> > >
> > > Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > > > Paul
> > > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
> > > > >
> > > > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Evil!Weds
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

But I thought untreated diabetes made someone drastically lose weight, because the body is burning through the insulin? I thought it's treated diabetes (a balanced system) that makes someone gain weight if they don't exercise?

~Weds

--- In , Vickie Cook wrote:
>
> I've often thought that E4 and H8 both had diabetes.  It is inherited and it would explain a lot.
> Vickie

I do agree with you. I have about the same knowledge of battles!
Yep it seems the French did get bogged down at Agincourt (not sad, H5 was a nasty piece of work - had a brief flirtation with him). It's just one of the infuriating things we will never know - that is unless the 'bones' tell us something we never expected. Yes, and the Norfolk thing could have disheartened some of the troops and encouraged R to make a charge. Perhaps that's why it's all so fascinating BUT what we do know is that 'our man' was a VERY brave man. Hilary


--- In , eileen bates wrote:
>
> Hilary..another point to consider is that sometimes the result of battles could turn on a sixpence....if you get my drift. Of course what I know about battles etc.., you could print on a postage stamp....but take Towton...that, possibly, had a lot to do with the weather, the wind blowing the snow and sleet towards the larger Lancastrian forces so they were practicaly blinded. Didnt the French losing Agincourt have something to do with the French knights getting bogged down by the mud...and so forth.....Possibly the loss of a leader at the early stages was the beginning of the end...and didnt Norfolk get killed quite early at Bosworth....Just a thought...Eileen
> On 13 Jan 2013, at 17:00, hjnatdat wrote:
>
> > Hi Eileen, I was for a long time a bit with you about the 'depression' thing, but you have to square that with someone, who I think, (and it's only me!) thought they were on a mission ordained by God. JAH makes that point as well. I think it was him (not Jones) who spoke of R's thirst before the battle (it's one of those things that's so odd it must be right) and again, I think it's him who thought it could be the sweating sickness. But that (brought over we think by H7's troups) hadn't reached into the country that far by August and, as far as I know, put you out of action very fast.
> >
> > It is intriguing. Was he just reckless? Or did he want to get it all over fast? He was, after all, an experienced soldier, not some rash young kid. Or did he think God would get him through? Like you, I would love to know, but doubt we ever will
> >
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In , eileen bates wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his small son and his wife...
> > >
> > > Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
> > > Eileen
> > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > > Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
> > > >
> > > > What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further, was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
> > > >
> > > > I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the 'Woodville' input.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > > > > Paul
> > > > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't in shape to do so?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Evil!Weds
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

"All battle plans change when you meet the enemy" is a statement that has
been passed down in history to today's forces. Far from looking for the
possibility of R3 being sick, I would suggest that at Bosworth everything
was stacked against him, both the terrain, his army and the willingness of
his "companions" to press the battle against Henry.

Once people start leaving a battlefield for any reason , let alone changing
sides it is a recipe for disaster. Richard could well have realized this but
by placing himself in harm's way was hoping to rally his troops ( see Crecy
, Agincourt, Trafalgar, Battle of Britain) historically this has worked
however if it does not............!

Modern warfare recognizes the strength of the psychological aspects of
battle ( a single sniper can change the whole tactics of a battle) or a
complete army can be won over if the cause is right ( Italy WW2) The
psychological aspects of mass desertion and changing of sides would have had
a totally devastating effect on the cause of R3.

I do not believe that we currently know the mindset of the respective
combatants at the time of the battle, only the historical reference which
as we know " History is written by the winners"

George

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:35 PM
To:
Subject: Re: York House Books






I do agree with you. I have about the same knowledge of battles!
Yep it seems the French did get bogged down at Agincourt (not sad, H5 was a
nasty piece of work - had a brief flirtation with him). It's just one of the
infuriating things we will never know - that is unless the 'bones' tell us
something we never expected. Yes, and the Norfolk thing could have
disheartened some of the troops and encouraged R to make a charge. Perhaps
that's why it's all so fascinating BUT what we do know is that 'our man' was
a VERY brave man. Hilary

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , eileen bates wrote:
>
> Hilary..another point to consider is that sometimes the result of battles
could turn on a sixpence....if you get my drift. Of course what I know about
battles etc.., you could print on a postage stamp....but take Towton...that,
possibly, had a lot to do with the weather, the wind blowing the snow and
sleet towards the larger Lancastrian forces so they were practicaly blinded.
Didnt the French losing Agincourt have something to do with the French
knights getting bogged down by the mud...and so forth.....Possibly the loss
of a leader at the early stages was the beginning of the end...and didnt
Norfolk get killed quite early at Bosworth....Just a thought...Eileen
> On 13 Jan 2013, at 17:00, hjnatdat wrote:
>
> > Hi Eileen, I was for a long time a bit with you about the 'depression'
thing, but you have to square that with someone, who I think, (and it's only
me!) thought they were on a mission ordained by God. JAH makes that point as
well. I think it was him (not Jones) who spoke of R's thirst before the
battle (it's one of those things that's so odd it must be right) and again,
I think it's him who thought it could be the sweating sickness. But that
(brought over we think by H7's troups) hadn't reached into the country that
far by August and, as far as I know, put you out of action very fast.
> >
> > It is intriguing. Was he just reckless? Or did he want to get it all
over fast? He was, after all, an experienced soldier, not some rash young
kid. Or did he think God would get him through? Like you, I would love to
know, but doubt we ever will
> >
> > Cheers Hilary
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , eileen bates wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with
Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering
from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his
small son and his wife...
> > >
> > > Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a
stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the
conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How
frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of
mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
> > > Eileen
> > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > > Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside
the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the
bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
> > > >
> > > > What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that
he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here
then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further,
was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the
onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
> > > >
> > > > I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and
'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that
also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the
prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the
'Woodville' input.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his
character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of
Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in
middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the
older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > > > > Paul
> > > > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland
(unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in
shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't
in shape to do so?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't
be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a
sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish
Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Evil!Weds
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance
perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it
was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the
dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he
loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City
of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

See George you're much more knowledgeable about these things than me! Sadly that the guy who used to do the Battlefields Detective thing is no longer with us (forget his name but he was good and died far too young).

And I don't dispute the fact that R made a big mistake in not withdrawing and choosing to fight another day, another place. Whatever caused it, flawed judgment seems to have been a big factor. Hilary



--- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
>
> "All battle plans change when you meet the enemy" is a statement that has
> been passed down in history to today's forces. Far from looking for the
> possibility of R3 being sick, I would suggest that at Bosworth everything
> was stacked against him, both the terrain, his army and the willingness of
> his "companions" to press the battle against Henry.
>
> Once people start leaving a battlefield for any reason , let alone changing
> sides it is a recipe for disaster. Richard could well have realized this but
> by placing himself in harm's way was hoping to rally his troops ( see Crecy
> , Agincourt, Trafalgar, Battle of Britain) historically this has worked
> however if it does not............!
>
> Modern warfare recognizes the strength of the psychological aspects of
> battle ( a single sniper can change the whole tactics of a battle) or a
> complete army can be won over if the cause is right ( Italy WW2) The
> psychological aspects of mass desertion and changing of sides would have had
> a totally devastating effect on the cause of R3.
>
> I do not believe that we currently know the mindset of the respective
> combatants at the time of the battle, only the historical reference which
> as we know " History is written by the winners"
>
> George
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:35 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: York House Books
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I do agree with you. I have about the same knowledge of battles!
> Yep it seems the French did get bogged down at Agincourt (not sad, H5 was a
> nasty piece of work - had a brief flirtation with him). It's just one of the
> infuriating things we will never know - that is unless the 'bones' tell us
> something we never expected. Yes, and the Norfolk thing could have
> disheartened some of the troops and encouraged R to make a charge. Perhaps
> that's why it's all so fascinating BUT what we do know is that 'our man' was
> a VERY brave man. Hilary
>
> --- In
> , eileen bates wrote:
> >
> > Hilary..another point to consider is that sometimes the result of battles
> could turn on a sixpence....if you get my drift. Of course what I know about
> battles etc.., you could print on a postage stamp....but take Towton...that,
> possibly, had a lot to do with the weather, the wind blowing the snow and
> sleet towards the larger Lancastrian forces so they were practicaly blinded.
> Didnt the French losing Agincourt have something to do with the French
> knights getting bogged down by the mud...and so forth.....Possibly the loss
> of a leader at the early stages was the beginning of the end...and didnt
> Norfolk get killed quite early at Bosworth....Just a thought...Eileen
> > On 13 Jan 2013, at 17:00, hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Eileen, I was for a long time a bit with you about the 'depression'
> thing, but you have to square that with someone, who I think, (and it's only
> me!) thought they were on a mission ordained by God. JAH makes that point as
> well. I think it was him (not Jones) who spoke of R's thirst before the
> battle (it's one of those things that's so odd it must be right) and again,
> I think it's him who thought it could be the sweating sickness. But that
> (brought over we think by H7's troups) hadn't reached into the country that
> far by August and, as far as I know, put you out of action very fast.
> > >
> > > It is intriguing. Was he just reckless? Or did he want to get it all
> over fast? He was, after all, an experienced soldier, not some rash young
> kid. Or did he think God would get him through? Like you, I would love to
> know, but doubt we ever will
> > >
> > > Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In
> , eileen bates wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with
> Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering
> from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his
> small son and his wife...
> > > >
> > > > Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a
> stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the
> conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How
> frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of
> mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
> > > > Eileen
> > > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside
> the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the
> bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
> > > > >
> > > > > What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that
> he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here
> then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further,
> was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the
> onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and
> 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that
> also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the
> prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the
> 'Woodville' input.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
> , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his
> character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of
> Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in
> middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the
> older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland
> (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in
> shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't
> in shape to do so?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't
> be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a
> sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish
> Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Evil!Weds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In
> , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance
> perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it
> was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the
> dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he
> loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City
> of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Good post George...

--- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
>
> "All battle plans change when you meet the enemy" is a statement that has
> been passed down in history to today's forces. Far from looking for the
> possibility of R3 being sick, I would suggest that at Bosworth everything
> was stacked against him, both the terrain, his army and the willingness of
> his "companions" to press the battle against Henry.
>
> Once people start leaving a battlefield for any reason , let alone changing
> sides it is a recipe for disaster. Richard could well have realized this but
> by placing himself in harm's way was hoping to rally his troops ( see Crecy
> , Agincourt, Trafalgar, Battle of Britain) historically this has worked
> however if it does not............!
>
> Modern warfare recognizes the strength of the psychological aspects of
> battle ( a single sniper can change the whole tactics of a battle) or a
> complete army can be won over if the cause is right ( Italy WW2) The
> psychological aspects of mass desertion and changing of sides would have had
> a totally devastating effect on the cause of R3.
>
> I do not believe that we currently know the mindset of the respective
> combatants at the time of the battle, only the historical reference which
> as we know " History is written by the winners"
>
> George
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:35 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: York House Books
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I do agree with you. I have about the same knowledge of battles!
> Yep it seems the French did get bogged down at Agincourt (not sad, H5 was a
> nasty piece of work - had a brief flirtation with him). It's just one of the
> infuriating things we will never know - that is unless the 'bones' tell us
> something we never expected. Yes, and the Norfolk thing could have
> disheartened some of the troops and encouraged R to make a charge. Perhaps
> that's why it's all so fascinating BUT what we do know is that 'our man' was
> a VERY brave man. Hilary
>
> --- In
> , eileen bates wrote:
> >
> > Hilary..another point to consider is that sometimes the result of battles
> could turn on a sixpence....if you get my drift. Of course what I know about
> battles etc.., you could print on a postage stamp....but take Towton...that,
> possibly, had a lot to do with the weather, the wind blowing the snow and
> sleet towards the larger Lancastrian forces so they were practicaly blinded.
> Didnt the French losing Agincourt have something to do with the French
> knights getting bogged down by the mud...and so forth.....Possibly the loss
> of a leader at the early stages was the beginning of the end...and didnt
> Norfolk get killed quite early at Bosworth....Just a thought...Eileen
> > On 13 Jan 2013, at 17:00, hjnatdat wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Eileen, I was for a long time a bit with you about the 'depression'
> thing, but you have to square that with someone, who I think, (and it's only
> me!) thought they were on a mission ordained by God. JAH makes that point as
> well. I think it was him (not Jones) who spoke of R's thirst before the
> battle (it's one of those things that's so odd it must be right) and again,
> I think it's him who thought it could be the sweating sickness. But that
> (brought over we think by H7's troups) hadn't reached into the country that
> far by August and, as far as I know, put you out of action very fast.
> > >
> > > It is intriguing. Was he just reckless? Or did he want to get it all
> over fast? He was, after all, an experienced soldier, not some rash young
> kid. Or did he think God would get him through? Like you, I would love to
> know, but doubt we ever will
> > >
> > > Cheers Hilary
> > >
> > > --- In
> , eileen bates wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with
> Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering
> from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his
> small son and his wife...
> > > >
> > > > Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a
> stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the
> conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How
> frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of
> mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
> > > > Eileen
> > > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside
> the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the
> bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
> > > > >
> > > > > What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that
> he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here
> then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further,
> was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the
> onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and
> 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that
> also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the
> prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the
> 'Woodville' input.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
> , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his
> character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of
> Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in
> middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the
> older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland
> (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in
> shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't
> in shape to do so?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't
> be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a
> sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish
> Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Evil!Weds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In
> , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance
> perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it
> was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the
> dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he
> loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City
> of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In Michael Jones book "1485 The Psychology of a Battle" he moves the Battle of Bosworth nearer to Atherstone. His site for the Battle is not a far away from where Glenn Foard found the cannon balls and the silver boar. He puts forward the theory that when Richard charged at Tudor he came up against a pike wall. Apparently it was a new tactic used by, I think, Swiss pike men. Richard had never seen this before and wasn't expecting it. You can imagine where Tudor was can't you? Protected in the middle of rows and rows of pike men, well where else would you expect someone who had never ever fought in a battle in his life to be? Snivelling little coward!

There is a booklet called Merevale and Atherstone:1485 it was written by someone called John D Austin which he calls "a working collection of pieces of information, particularly oral history". It has a picture of a pike wall as depicted in some pieces of glass which were found in a box at Merevale Hall. I believe Michael has a picture of it in his book too. So maybe Richard encountered a battle tactic he wasn't expecting and I think that Michael said that once the charge had begun there would have been no way to stop it so they would have crashed into the pike wall.

Mary

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Good post George...
>
> --- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
> >
> > "All battle plans change when you meet the enemy" is a statement that has
> > been passed down in history to today's forces. Far from looking for the
> > possibility of R3 being sick, I would suggest that at Bosworth everything
> > was stacked against him, both the terrain, his army and the willingness of
> > his "companions" to press the battle against Henry.
> >
> > Once people start leaving a battlefield for any reason , let alone changing
> > sides it is a recipe for disaster. Richard could well have realized this but
> > by placing himself in harm's way was hoping to rally his troops ( see Crecy
> > , Agincourt, Trafalgar, Battle of Britain) historically this has worked
> > however if it does not............!
> >
> > Modern warfare recognizes the strength of the psychological aspects of
> > battle ( a single sniper can change the whole tactics of a battle) or a
> > complete army can be won over if the cause is right ( Italy WW2) The
> > psychological aspects of mass desertion and changing of sides would have had
> > a totally devastating effect on the cause of R3.
> >
> > I do not believe that we currently know the mindset of the respective
> > combatants at the time of the battle, only the historical reference which
> > as we know " History is written by the winners"
> >
> > George
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of hjnatdat
> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:35 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: York House Books
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I do agree with you. I have about the same knowledge of battles!
> > Yep it seems the French did get bogged down at Agincourt (not sad, H5 was a
> > nasty piece of work - had a brief flirtation with him). It's just one of the
> > infuriating things we will never know - that is unless the 'bones' tell us
> > something we never expected. Yes, and the Norfolk thing could have
> > disheartened some of the troops and encouraged R to make a charge. Perhaps
> > that's why it's all so fascinating BUT what we do know is that 'our man' was
> > a VERY brave man. Hilary
> >
> > --- In
> > , eileen bates wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary..another point to consider is that sometimes the result of battles
> > could turn on a sixpence....if you get my drift. Of course what I know about
> > battles etc.., you could print on a postage stamp....but take Towton...that,
> > possibly, had a lot to do with the weather, the wind blowing the snow and
> > sleet towards the larger Lancastrian forces so they were practicaly blinded.
> > Didnt the French losing Agincourt have something to do with the French
> > knights getting bogged down by the mud...and so forth.....Possibly the loss
> > of a leader at the early stages was the beginning of the end...and didnt
> > Norfolk get killed quite early at Bosworth....Just a thought...Eileen
> > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 17:00, hjnatdat wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Eileen, I was for a long time a bit with you about the 'depression'
> > thing, but you have to square that with someone, who I think, (and it's only
> > me!) thought they were on a mission ordained by God. JAH makes that point as
> > well. I think it was him (not Jones) who spoke of R's thirst before the
> > battle (it's one of those things that's so odd it must be right) and again,
> > I think it's him who thought it could be the sweating sickness. But that
> > (brought over we think by H7's troups) hadn't reached into the country that
> > far by August and, as far as I know, put you out of action very fast.
> > > >
> > > > It is intriguing. Was he just reckless? Or did he want to get it all
> > over fast? He was, after all, an experienced soldier, not some rash young
> > kid. Or did he think God would get him through? Like you, I would love to
> > know, but doubt we ever will
> > > >
> > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> > , eileen bates wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hilary...you think it is possible that something was wrong with
> > Richard at Bosworth? I have often tinkered with the idea he was suffering
> > from depression. In a very short time he had suffered the loss of both his
> > small son and his wife...
> > > > >
> > > > > Even if that falls short of the mark...maybe he had just reached a
> > stage where he was going to make an end to the Tudor threat, all the
> > conspiracy once and for all.....Maybe, maybe, maybe...always maybe's...How
> > frustrating for us that we will never know the truth of Richard's state of
> > mind or his state of health come to that on that evil day in August.
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 15:33, hjnatdat wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Paul, Did you see the programme on a few months' ago called 'Inside
> > the Body of H8)? It was v good and attributed his change in character to the
> > bad fall he had from his horse (at the time of Anne Boleyn).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What was interesting is that they claimed it was highly likely that
> > he also suffered from spasmodic bouts of malaria, which was endemic here
> > then. Ross makes a similar claim for E4, and if you take it even further,
> > was that what could have afflicted R at Bosworth (some have suggested the
> > onset of a fever, thirst, lack of sleep etc.)?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree H8 does indeed resemble granddad in stature and
> > 'preferences', but I've often wondered whether there's a bit of him that
> > also resembled great-uncle Rivers - the music, the poetry, the jousting, the
> > prig (and he was certainly one of those)? Perhaps we tend to forget the
> > 'Woodville' input.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers Hilary
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> > , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The chief reason for the joy at the death of Henry VII, his
> > character and meanness apart, was that his 17 year old son reminded many of
> > Edward IV in his prime. But like Henry VIII Edward got lazy and fat in
> > middle age. I always imagine the 40 year old Edward as looking like the
> > older Henry 8th without a beard.
> > > > > > > Paul
> > > > > > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:26, wednesday_mc wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But...but wasn't this the king who wanted to invade Scotland
> > (unless I have it wrong?), but put it off for a year (because he wasn't in
> > shape to do so?), and then sent his little brother because he still wasn't
> > in shape to do so?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's not the weight, it's the...um...cuddly bits...that wouldn't
> > be comfy on the horse, y'see?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm sure Edward was most huggable and much more than a bit of a
> > sweetie to the City of London and Mistress Shore, et. al. I only wish
> > Richard's reaction to Edward's dilemma had been recorded for posterity.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ~Evil!Weds
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In
> > , "hjnatdat" wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Now, now! If we dismiss some of the things about R's appearance
> > perhaps we should challenge the bits about E4's weight - though I recall it
> > was said at Picquigy that he'd put a bit on - but that could be the
> > dastardly French!! Perhaps he preferred to stay closer to the place he
> > loved; it was a bit of a mutual admiration society between him and the City
> > of London - or his mistresses? Cheers Hilary (only joking!!)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Would this pike wall perhaps not have been a new tactic, but more like the ancient Roman phalanx, which means Richard and his men would have been pinned? If I remember right, the only way a phalanx could be beaten was when it was outflanked by the infantry or when it lost its cohesion due to rough terrain. A phalanx was pretty much unbeatable from the front.

If that's the case, then I wonder if Tudor's commander had studied Roman battles, but Richard hadn't. Was Richard perhaps mentally stuck in medieval battle tradition and unable to think "outside the box" in the midst of a battle?

~Weds

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> In Michael Jones book "1485 The Psychology of a Battle" he moves the Battle of Bosworth nearer to Atherstone. His site for the Battle is not a far away from where Glenn Foard found the cannon balls and the silver boar. He puts forward the theory that when Richard charged at Tudor he came up against a pike wall. Apparently it was a new tactic used by, I think, Swiss pike men. Richard had never seen this before and wasn't expecting it. You can imagine where Tudor was can't you? Protected in the middle of rows and rows of pike men, well where else would you expect someone who had never ever fought in a battle in his life to be? Snivelling little coward!
>
> There is a booklet called Merevale and Atherstone:1485 it was written by someone called John D Austin which he calls "a working collection of pieces of information, particularly oral history". It has a picture of a pike wall as depicted in some pieces of glass which were found in a box at Merevale Hall. I believe Michael has a picture of it in his book too. So maybe Richard encountered a battle tactic he wasn't expecting and I think that Michael said that once the charge had begun there would have been no way to stop it so they would have crashed into the pike wall.
>
> Mary

The Roman phalanx differs from the pike as the Roman system used a large shield that could be formed in numbers to make a shelter also the Roman spears were shorter and thrown. Each soldier carrying one or two they were designed so that once thrown they would bend on impact making removal difficult and reuse impossible, after that they advanced using a short sword while still using their shields.
Pikes cannot be thrown and were a relatively immobile defensive system so even if this was known the knowledge would not be useful.

George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 14, 2013, at 12:24 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> Would this pike wall perhaps not have been a new tactic, but more like the ancient Roman phalanx, which means Richard and his men would have been pinned? If I remember right, the only way a phalanx could be beaten was when it was outflanked by the infantry or when it lost its cohesion due to rough terrain. A phalanx was pretty much unbeatable from the front.
>
> If that's the case, then I wonder if Tudor's commander had studied Roman battles, but Richard hadn't. Was Richard perhaps mentally stuck in medieval battle tradition and unable to think "outside the box" in the midst of a battle?
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > In Michael Jones book "1485 The Psychology of a Battle" he moves the Battle of Bosworth nearer to Atherstone. His site for the Battle is not a far away from where Glenn Foard found the cannon balls and the silver boar. He puts forward the theory that when Richard charged at Tudor he came up against a pike wall. Apparently it was a new tactic used by, I think, Swiss pike men. Richard had never seen this before and wasn't expecting it. You can imagine where Tudor was can't you? Protected in the middle of rows and rows of pike men, well where else would you expect someone who had never ever fought in a battle in his life to be? Snivelling little coward!
> >
> > There is a booklet called Merevale and Atherstone:1485 it was written by someone called John D Austin which he calls "a working collection of pieces of information, particularly oral history". It has a picture of a pike wall as depicted in some pieces of glass which were found in a box at Merevale Hall. I believe Michael has a picture of it in his book too. So maybe Richard encountered a battle tactic he wasn't expecting and I think that Michael said that once the charge had begun there would have been no way to stop it so they would have crashed into the pike wall.
> >
> > Mary
>
>

Lovely idea, introduction to Richard early on, I like it.:)
Loyaulte me Lie
Christine


________________________________
From: Richard Yahoo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Friday, 11 January 2013, 16:56
Subject: Re: Re: York House Books


 

I think it is an excellent idea. Why not get the children interested in Richard through a story with his horse? Marie need not go to the battle! She can stop
when Richard starts talking to his horse before the charge about their journey together since the horse was a colt and him a little boy trying to conquer its high spirit! Ahem. Sorry !
Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 11, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Jonathan Evans mailto:jmcevans98%40yahoo.com> wrote:

> John Ashdown Hill discusses this and - off the top of my head - he suggests Surrey could be a corruption of Syria, or something similar. Was there a stable record somewhere or a listing of horses purchased? I really can't remember and I don't have access to the book at the moment. Of course, even if that's the case, it still wouldn't indicate what horse - or even what colour of horse - Richard rode at Bosworth.
>
> Unlike George, though, I rather like the idea of a book focussing on one of Richard's horses, fictional or otherwise:
>
> > What exactly can a book about his horse do to help make children
> > understand the injustice of past history?
>
> Probably a better question to ask of Michael Morpurgo...
>
> Jonathan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale mailto:paul.bale%40sky.com>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, 11 January 2013, 16:23
> Subject: Re: Re: York House Books
>
>
>
> I hate to say Marie but I have a list of all the horses we know for certain Richard owned, and there is no White or Surrey amongst them! I think that was another of Shakespeare's imaginings.
> Paul
>
> On 11 Jan 2013, at 15:18, mairemulholland wrote:
>
> > I'm ordering it today. I'm thinking (just thinking) of writing a children's book about Richard and his horse, White Surrey. I'm looking for any info (from real sources) on his household. Maire.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>
> >> At that price I would snap it up! If you want the working man, rather than the 'I'm having a row with Anne' Richard it's the one for you! I love it because it tells you so much about what life in a 15th century town is REALLY about; and it's not that different from local politics today. Hilary
> >>
> >> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Actually, you make the book seem even more interesting! The working Richard - a man I'm very interested in - rather than the father, husband and harassed king. It's being offered by the Society for 17.00 pounds. I think they may offer the second volume. Maybe I can get a better deal looking around. Maire.
> >>>
> >>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Maire, I did a google and got it from Abe Books in Dusseldorf. Took about a week to come. I have Vol One which seems to cover 1476 to 1490 and is House Books One, Two/Four. I can't track down Vol Two but would assume it covers the earlier period. There's a dearth of info about these on the web so any info anyone could give me would be most useful.
> >>>>
> >>>> One word of caution before you shell out; they are in the form of minutes and letters are read out. So there are no intimate details because R obviously designed them to be read out to the Council. I'm sure you'll realise that. They're like a 15th cent version of modern council minutes. But it's the things you read into them, like Richard in London in November 1477, just after Clarence's arrest, still takes time to write to York to sort something out. Hilary
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hilary: Your post has gotten me so excited! How wonderful. I assume you ordered these books from the Society. I can afford to buy 1 volume at the moment - can you tell me how long it took for you to receive them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Can't wait to get this book! Maire.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "hjnatdat" wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi, While we wait .....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think just before I joined someone (was it Johanne?) asked whether it was worth acquiring the York House Books. Well, over Christmas I managed to justify to myself it was worth shelling out 35 GPB for Vol One. And it's become the most treasured of all my books.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why? Well if you think about it, the R we meet, from Rous to Ross or Croyland to PMK, is seen through someone else's eyes. In the YHB we get to meet the real Richard, through his letters (and there are a lot) to the York city fathers and to some others, such as Hastings. And of course it's a marvellous record of fifteenth century York life, whether it be about cleaning out gutters or Aldermen getting into debt. The City Council toadies a bit in the manner of the day, but they don't always get him right and he always doesn't get them right. He sometimes doesn't get what he asks for and he asks, never demands. You get this marvellous picture of one or a couple of men (including the famous John Sponer) galloping off to Middleham, Sheriff Hutton and sometimes even London, to tell him things, ask for support, ask what to do. And nearly as frequently there are waggons rolling off to Middleham (or wherever he is) with a few braces of rabbits and
pidgeons
> and several gallons of red wine (he must have had a permanently muzzy head to get through that lot). He must have left a tremendous hole in their lives when he died.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And Richard himself? He comes across as an earnest young man who takes his responsibilities very seriously - and who also wants to be liked and admired by them. You can imagine E4 passing stuff on from them (there are letters to him as well dealt with by R) saying for gawd sake sort them out. And there are letters from R to people such as Hastings saying support me with the King. It's interesting that the editor (no great R fan I'd say) says that when he had to forbid fishgarths in York, he had to demolish his own in Lancashire - he couldn't be a hyprocrite, could he? Ironically, if he resembles anyone I'd say it's our current monarch who's always had this thing about duty, responsibility and setting an example. And of course, that can at times appear a tad dull, that is until it's gone.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Overall, a great book - one for grazing rather than bedtime reading and it's somehow much more 'modern' than Rous and Croyland (perhaps they had a tactic in sounding like 12th century monks?). The Latin is translated Johanne, and the English is in the fifteenth century dialect. It will take me a long time to get through it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you want to find the real Richard you'll find him there. And what you find is miles from More and Shakespeare, Rous and Croyland.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hilary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>