Portugese marriage

If Richard was negotiating for EofY to marry into the Portugese Royal House (which was the legitimate Lancastrian line) this seems, to me, an indication that he might have had plans for Edward and Richard as well. Are there any thoughts on this?

merriannmclain wrote:

"If Richard was negotiating for EofY to marry into the Portugese Royal House
(which was the legitimate Lancastrian line) this seems, to me, an indication
that he might have had plans for Edward and Richard as well. Are there any
thoughts on this?"

I know of no plans for marriages for Edward or Richard, but it's hard to
imagine Richard and his Council NOT giving some consideration to it while
the negotiations with Portugal were instigated. If I understand the rankings
for the nobility, Dukes and Earls were the highest (in that order) and
anyone after were sort of lumped together. I would think there would be
quite a few loyal Yorkist nobles in that latter category and a marriage
between an illegitimate son of EIV and a daughter of one of those nobles
would be a sign of royal favor.
More importantly, it would limit the power, and hopefully the ambitions, of
the former royal Princes by limiting THEIR own power and spheres of
influence without "demeaning" them. After all, their mother's father was
only a knight.
Doug

________________________________
 Douglas Eugene Stamate  wrote:

I know of no plans for marriages for Edward or Richard, but it's hard to
imagine Richard and his Council NOT giving some consideration to it while
the negotiations with Portugal were instigated. If I understand the rankings
for the nobility, Dukes and Earls were the highest (in that order) and
anyone after were sort of lumped together. I would think there would be
quite a few loyal Yorkist nobles in that latter category and a marriage
between an illegitimate son of EIV and a daughter of one of those nobles
would be a sign of royal favor.
More importantly, it would limit the power, and hopefully the ambitions, of
the former royal Princes by limiting THEIR own power and spheres of
influence without "demeaning" them. After all, their mother's father was
only a knight.
Doug 

Me:

There might have been a risk in marrying the former princes to the daughters of English nobles - they would perhaps provide an alternative Yorkist claimant if, as seems to have been happening since the reign of Richard II, various disgruntled members of the nobility fell 'out of love' with the current King's government.  The example of Warwick, father-in-law of Clarence, springs to mind.  A better plan may have been to find suitable brides abroad, and with their sister safely married to a Portuguese Duke, she would be in a good position to help in that area. 

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.

Interesting question...and replies...I suppose the boys were still quite young so there may not have seemed any urgency at the time. But then again....a good idea to get them married to someone that could neutralise them...as Pamela suggests a foreign match. I wonder what the mother would have thought.....? Eileen
On 21 Jan 2013, at 15:13, Pamela Furmidge wrote:

>
>
> ________________________________
> Douglas Eugene Stamate wrote:
>
> I know of no plans for marriages for Edward or Richard, but it's hard to
> imagine Richard and his Council NOT giving some consideration to it while
> the negotiations with Portugal were instigated. If I understand the rankings
> for the nobility, Dukes and Earls were the highest (in that order) and
> anyone after were sort of lumped together. I would think there would be
> quite a few loyal Yorkist nobles in that latter category and a marriage
> between an illegitimate son of EIV and a daughter of one of those nobles
> would be a sign of royal favor.
> More importantly, it would limit the power, and hopefully the ambitions, of
> the former royal Princes by limiting THEIR own power and spheres of
> influence without "demeaning" them. After all, their mother's father was
> only a knight.
> Doug
>
> Me:
>
> There might have been a risk in marrying the former princes to the daughters of English nobles - they would perhaps provide an alternative Yorkist claimant if, as seems to have been happening since the reign of Richard II, various disgruntled members of the nobility fell 'out of love' with the current King's government. The example of Warwick, father-in-law of Clarence, springs to mind. A better plan may have been to find suitable brides abroad, and with their sister safely married to a Portuguese Duke, she would be in a good position to help in that area.
>
> Recent Activity: * New Members 3 * New Files 1
> Visit Your Group
>
> Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ý Unsubscribe ý Terms of Use ý Send us Feedback
> .
>
>
>
>

> If Richard was negotiating for EofY to marry into the Portugese Royal House (which was the legitimate Lancastrian line) this seems, to me, an indication that he might have had plans for Edward and Richard as well. Are there any thoughts on this?
>


Meriann,
But are you considering that the princes were alive when the marriage negotiations were starting with Portugal? Hopefully they were.......but since we have no evidence that Richard was indeed negotiating any alliance for them, we cannot be sure.......

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 20, 2013, at 11:28 PM, "merriannmclain" <merriannmclain@...> wrote:

> If Richard was negotiating for EofY to marry into the Portugese Royal House (which was the legitimate Lancastrian line) this seems, to me, an indication that he might have had plans for Edward and Richard as well. Are there any thoughts on this?
>
>

Eileen wrote:

I suppose the boys were still quite young so there may not have seemed any urgency at the time. But then again....a good idea to get them married to someone that could neutralise them...as Pamela suggests a foreign match. I wonder what the mother would have thought.....?

Carol responds:

I suspect that (assuming that the boys were alive) Richard was much more concerned about keeping their whereabouts concealed until he had solved the Tydder problem than marrying them off. Once Henry Tudor was disposed of, he would probably have had the same policy for them as for Elizabeth's younger sisters--marry them into a respectable family loyal to himself. But he would not, I think, have married them into a European royal family. That would be courting disaster. He would also, I hope, have made sure that they had no military training and small chance of gathering supporters who might rebel against him. Or maybe they would have been kept in genteel captivity. There's no way to know what he would--or should--have done other than, as you say, to neutralize them somehow without killing them.

If, of course, one or both of them rebelled later, he'd have had no choice but to meet them in battle. Barring treason, he would probably have defeated them soundly, preferably without killing them.

Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.

Carol

Carol

Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
>
> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
>
> Carol
>
> Carol
>
>

Carol Wrote

I suspect that (assuming that the boys were alive) Richard was much more concerned about keeping their whereabouts concealed until he had solved the Tydder problem than marrying them off. Once Henry Tudor was
disposed of, he would probably have had the same policy for them as for
Elizabeth's younger sisters--marry them into a respectable family loyal
to himself. But he would not, I think, have married them into a European royal family. That would be courting disaster. He would also, I hope,
have made sure that they had no military training and small chance of
gathering supporters who might rebel against him. Or maybe they would
have been kept in genteel captivity. There's no way to know what he
would--or should--have done other than, as you say, to neutralize them
somehow without killing them.

If, of course, one or both of them rebelled later, he'd have had no
choice but to meet them in battle. Barring treason, he would probably
have defeated them soundly, preferably without killing them.

Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.


Ishita- I would not want to be in his shoes either! Poor man. I think his best bet would have been to put them in a religious order. That would make sure they are safe and out of reach. Marrying them to even minor nobles, would be to court disaster. But if they took holy orders, they can do no harm.


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage


 
Eileen wrote:

I suppose the boys were still quite young so there may not have seemed any urgency at the time. But then again....a good idea to get them married to someone that could neutralise them...as Pamela suggests a foreign match. I wonder what the mother would have thought.....?

Carol responds:

I suspect that (assuming that the boys were alive) Richard was much more concerned about keeping their whereabouts concealed until he had solved the Tydder problem than marrying them off. Once Henry Tudor was disposed of, he would probably have had the same policy for them as for Elizabeth's younger sisters--marry them into a respectable family loyal to himself. But he would not, I think, have married them into a European royal family. That would be courting disaster. He would also, I hope, have made sure that they had no military training and small chance of gathering supporters who might rebel against him. Or maybe they would have been kept in genteel captivity. There's no way to know what he would--or should--have done other than, as you say, to neutralize them somehow without killing them.

If, of course, one or both of them rebelled later, he'd have had no choice but to meet them in battle. Barring treason, he would probably have defeated them soundly, preferably without killing them.

Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.

Carol

Carol

Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
Many thanks

On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" <eileenbates147@...> wrote:

> Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
>>
>> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Welcome, Pamela!




________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage


 
Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
Many thanks

On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" eileenbates147@...> wrote:

> Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
>>
>> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Ishita,
That's so true.  And who's to say that's not exactly what Richard did with his nephews.  We just don't know, but they could have been put in a religious order.
Vickie

From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage

 
Carol Wrote

I suspect that (assuming that the boys were alive) Richard was much more concerned about keeping their whereabouts concealed until he had solved the Tydder problem than marrying them off. Once Henry Tudor was
disposed of, he would probably have had the same policy for them as for
Elizabeth's younger sisters--marry them into a respectable family loyal
to himself. But he would not, I think, have married them into a European royal family. That would be courting disaster. He would also, I hope,
have made sure that they had no military training and small chance of
gathering supporters who might rebel against him. Or maybe they would
have been kept in genteel captivity. There's no way to know what he
would--or should--have done other than, as you say, to neutralize them
somehow without killing them.

If, of course, one or both of them rebelled later, he'd have had no
choice but to meet them in battle. Barring treason, he would probably
have defeated them soundly, preferably without killing them.

Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.

Ishita- I would not want to be in his shoes either! Poor man. I think his best bet would have been to put them in a religious order. That would make sure they are safe and out of reach. Marrying them to even minor nobles, would be to court disaster. But if they took holy orders, they can do no harm.

________________________________
From: justcarol67 mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage


 
Eileen wrote:

I suppose the boys were still quite young so there may not have seemed any urgency at the time. But then again....a good idea to get them married to someone that could neutralise them...as Pamela suggests a foreign match. I wonder what the mother would have thought.....?

Carol responds:

I suspect that (assuming that the boys were alive) Richard was much more concerned about keeping their whereabouts concealed until he had solved the Tydder problem than marrying them off. Once Henry Tudor was disposed of, he would probably have had the same policy for them as for Elizabeth's younger sisters--marry them into a respectable family loyal to himself. But he would not, I think, have married them into a European royal family. That would be courting disaster. He would also, I hope, have made sure that they had no military training and small chance of gathering supporters who might rebel against him. Or maybe they would have been kept in genteel captivity. There's no way to know what he would--or should--have done other than, as you say, to neutralize them somehow without killing them.

If, of course, one or both of them rebelled later, he'd have had no choice but to meet them in battle. Barring treason, he would probably have defeated them soundly, preferably without killing them.

Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.

Carol

Carol

Welcome Pamela...you are very welcome. Eileen
On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:41, Pamela Bain wrote:

> Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> Many thanks
>
> On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" eileenbates147@...> wrote:
>
> > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> >>
> >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

I think Richard took the job once he was convinced his nephews were illegitimate - duty bound him. I'm sure he had some ambition to be King, but he must have realized about 5 minutes into the job that he and Anne and Edward were at just as much risk as when he was Protector. So sad. Maire.

--- In , eileen bates wrote:
>
> Welcome Pamela...you are very welcome. Eileen
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:41, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> > Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> > Many thanks
> >
> > On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" eileenbates147@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> > >>
> > >> Carol
> > >>
> > >> Carol
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Welcome aboard, Pamela. Maire.

--- In , Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> Many thanks
>
> On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" wrote:
>
> > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> >>
> >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Thank you....I have a lot of reading and catching up to do. Richard III has always been my favorite king, I suppose because of the mysteries. I had no idea there were societies until I read about the remains being found. I am working on family history, and York is a family name. I have delved and found links into the late 1500's, so I am really interested. Of course, my ancestor was probably an offshoot of an offshoot, so no claims to royalty! I will probably not comment or ask about anything, until I am up on my research and have everyone and all the changes set in my mind.
I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
Many thanks,
Pamela

On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:23 PM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland@...>> wrote:



Welcome aboard, Pamela. Maire.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> Many thanks
>
> On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" wrote:
>
> > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> >>
> >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Pamela, glad your with us.
Best Wishes
Loyaulte me Lie
Christine


________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2013, 17:41
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage


 

Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
Many thanks

On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" mailto:eileenbates147%40btinternet.com> wrote:

> Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
>>
>> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hello again Pamela,just as a matter of interest are you a member of the Richard iii Society
Christine


________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013, 0:52
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage

Thank you....I have a lot of reading and catching up to do. Richard III has always been my favorite king, I suppose because of the mysteries. I had no idea there were societies until I read about the remains being found. I am working on family history, and York is a family name. I have delved and found links into the late 1500's, so I am really interested. Of course, my ancestor was probably an offshoot of an offshoot, so no claims to royalty! I will probably not comment or ask about anything, until I am up on my research and have everyone and all the changes set in my mind.
I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
Many thanks,
Pamela

On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:23 PM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland@...>> wrote:



Welcome aboard, Pamela. Maire.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> Many thanks
>
> On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" wrote:
>
> > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> >>
> >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Pamela,
 
welcome to the group - it's always good to have new members.
 
Liz
 

From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013, 0:52
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage

Thank you....I have a lot of reading and catching up to do. Richard III has always been my favorite king, I suppose because of the mysteries. I had no idea there were societies until I read about the remains being found. I am working on family history, and York is a family name. I have delved and found links into the late 1500's, so I am really interested. Of course, my ancestor was probably an offshoot of an offshoot, so no claims to royalty! I will probably not comment or ask about anything, until I am up on my research and have everyone and all the changes set in my mind.
I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
Many thanks,
Pamela

On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:23 PM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland@...>> wrote:



Welcome aboard, Pamela. Maire.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> Many thanks
>
> On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" wrote:
>
> > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> >>
> >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Welcome I hope you enjoy the forum as much as I have over many years, we are a friendly bunch who do not always agree on thing but let each other have their say.  We do have the odd (the word is right) problem with people who need to grow up, but if you have any questions fell free to ask, many  people on here who will either give you a full answer or let you know where to find it/read about it.

We are also very emotional about the bones in Leicester.




________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2013, 17:41
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage


 
Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
Many thanks

On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" eileenbates147@...> wrote:

> Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
>>
>> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

"Poor man. I think his best bet would have been to put them in a
religious order. That would make sure they are safe and out of reach.
Marrying them to even minor nobles, would be to court disaster. But if
they took holy orders, they can do no harm."

This is what David Baldwin thinks happened to the younger boy, Richard. Not exactly holy orders but kept with a very low profile in Colchester Abbey, to emerge after the Dissolution as Richard of Eastwell. He also suggests that H7 and H8 knew all about it. That seems so unlikely - given their usual way with Plantagenets his head wouldn't have remained on his shoulders for very long.
I'd like to think they got away but it seems likely they died in the Tower. The Buckingham/Beaufort/Morton consortium is my choose as villain.

Ishita Bandyo wrote:

"I would not want to be in his shoes either! Poor man. I think his best bet
would have been to put them in a religious order. That would make sure they
are safe and out of reach. Marrying them to even minor nobles, would be to
court disaster. But if they took holy orders, they can do no harm."

Couldn't there be a problem with Edward and Richard being "placed" in holy
orders if it wasn't what they really wanted to do? True, they would have to
SAY they wished to become a member to enter any Order, but would that have
ruled out the possibility that, at some later time, one or both said their
agreement had been under duress; ie, they were afraid for their lives?
Such an action on Richard's part would have bought time for him, but I do
wonder if someone so well-known for his attempts to follow the precepts of
his religious beliefs would have basically forced someone to enter holy
orders.
And would being in an Order really have neutralized them? I can think of a
certain Bishop who did a lot of "harm"...
Doug

________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage



Eileen wrote:

I suppose the boys were still quite young so there may not have seemed any
urgency at the time. But then again....a good idea to get them married to
someone that could neutralise them...as Pamela suggests a foreign match. I
wonder what the mother would have thought.....?

Carol responds:

I suspect that (assuming that the boys were alive) Richard was much more
concerned about keeping their whereabouts concealed until he had solved the
Tydder problem than marrying them off. Once Henry Tudor was disposed of, he
would probably have had the same policy for them as for Elizabeth's younger
sisters--marry them into a respectable family loyal to himself. But he would
not, I think, have married them into a European royal family. That would be
courting disaster. He would also, I hope, have made sure that they had no
military training and small chance of gathering supporters who might rebel
against him. Or maybe they would have been kept in genteel captivity.
There's no way to know what he would--or should--have done other than, as
you say, to neutralize them somehow without killing them.

If, of course, one or both of them rebelled later, he'd have had no choice
but to meet them in battle. Barring treason, he would probably have defeated
them soundly, preferably without killing them.

Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.

Carol

Carol








------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Got it...... there were several from which to choose. This Society met all my needs and sounded the most interesting. So far, it more than lives up to my hopes!

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of C HOLMES
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:41 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage



Hello again Pamela,just as a matter of interest are you a member of the Richard iii Society
Christine


________________________________
From: Pamela Bain pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>>
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013, 0:52
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage

Thank you....I have a lot of reading and catching up to do. Richard III has always been my favorite king, I suppose because of the mysteries. I had no idea there were societies until I read about the remains being found. I am working on family history, and York is a family name. I have delved and found links into the late 1500's, so I am really interested. Of course, my ancestor was probably an offshoot of an offshoot, so no claims to royalty! I will probably not comment or ask about anything, until I am up on my research and have everyone and all the changes set in my mind.
I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
Many thanks,
Pamela

On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:23 PM, "mairemulholland" mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com>mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com>>> wrote:

Welcome aboard, Pamela. Maire.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> Many thanks
>
> On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" wrote:
>
> > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> >>
> >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Thank you. It is so wonderful to see History still alive in the hearts and minds of so many very intelligent people. As I said yesterday, I have much to read, much to learn, and much to digest.

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of liz williams
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 6:36 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage



Hi Pamela,

welcome to the group - it's always good to have new members.

Liz


From: Pamela Bain pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>>
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013, 0:52
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage

Thank you....I have a lot of reading and catching up to do. Richard III has always been my favorite king, I suppose because of the mysteries. I had no idea there were societies until I read about the remains being found. I am working on family history, and York is a family name. I have delved and found links into the late 1500's, so I am really interested. Of course, my ancestor was probably an offshoot of an offshoot, so no claims to royalty! I will probably not comment or ask about anything, until I am up on my research and have everyone and all the changes set in my mind.
I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
Many thanks,
Pamela

On Jan 22, 2013, at 4:23 PM, "mairemulholland" mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com>mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com>>> wrote:

Welcome aboard, Pamela. Maire.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> Many thanks
>
> On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" wrote:
>
> > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> >>
> >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >> Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

That (the bones in Leicester) was what convinced me to ask for admission into this group. And, this is a passionate subject!

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of marion cheatham
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:11 AM
To:
Subject: Re: New Member



Welcome I hope you enjoy the forum as much as I have over many years, we are a friendly bunch who do not always agree on thing but let each other have their say. We do have the odd (the word is right) problem with people who need to grow up, but if you have any questions fell free to ask, many people on here who will either give you a full answer or let you know where to find it/read about it.

We are also very emotional about the bones in Leicester.

________________________________
From: Pamela Bain pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>>
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>" <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2013, 17:41
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage



Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
Many thanks

On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" eileenbates147@...<mailto:eileenbates147%40btinternet.com>> wrote:

> Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
>>
>> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I do disagree that a religious order would insure safety for anyone. Look at Thomas Becket and the many problems he caused and paid for!

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of P BARRETT
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:34 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage



"Poor man. I think his best bet would have been to put them in a
religious order. That would make sure they are safe and out of reach.
Marrying them to even minor nobles, would be to court disaster. But if
they took holy orders, they can do no harm."

This is what David Baldwin thinks happened to the younger boy, Richard. Not exactly holy orders but kept with a very low profile in Colchester Abbey, to emerge after the Dissolution as Richard of Eastwell. He also suggests that H7 and H8 knew all about it. That seems so unlikely - given their usual way with Plantagenets his head wouldn't have remained on his shoulders for very long.
I'd like to think they got away but it seems likely they died in the Tower. The Buckingham/Beaufort/Morton consortium is my choose as villain.

Pamela Bain wrote:

> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.

Carol responds:

Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."

Carol

Thank you, I will find and read them!

On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:



Pamela Bain wrote:

> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.

Carol responds:

Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."

Carol

Pamela, follow up with Sunne in Splendor a fiction by Sharon Penman! It brings everything to life!
Ishita

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 23, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:

> Thank you, I will find and read them!
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela Bain wrote:
>
>> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

And Good King Richard? by Jeremy Potter.


--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Pamela, follow up with Sunne in Splendor a fiction by Sharon Penman! It brings everything to life!
> Ishita
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> > Thank you, I will find and read them!
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> >> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
> >
> > Carol

Some wonderful posts on this subject, it took a while to get through all of them. I will try to respond/clarify, if I may:

Ishito, I have taken the position that the princes survived longer than rumor and general consensus would have it, this is for simplicity and to give some direction to inquiry and I have a tendency during research to go all over the map.

I concur on marriage for the boys, using them to cement alligegiance was one possibility though I doubt Richard would be so naive to do so within England; thus Portugal or even Ireland.

I have yet to read Baldwin, but he is going to the top of the reading list.

Doug, very correctly points out, that taking orders wouldn't necessarily 'neutralize' the princes. Rather than orders, a monastery with a vow of silence, again Portugal and Ireland would have been ideal for the purpose: friendly territory and far enough away for safety, IMHO.

Carol, from what I have read about Tydder, he was (pushed by his stage mamma) a problem from the start. All seriousness aside, considering the HT problem is one of the reasons I believe the boys were sequestered until a resolution.

And welcome Pamela...enjoy!

Thank you everyone for the input, I really appreciate your thoughts.
merriann

--- In , P BARRETT wrote:
>
> "Poor man. I think his best bet would have been to put them in a
> religious order. That would make sure they are safe and out of reach.
> Marrying them to even minor nobles, would be to court disaster. But if
> they took holy orders, they can do no harm."
>
> This is what David Baldwin thinks happened to the younger boy, Richard. Not exactly holy orders but kept with a very low profile in Colchester Abbey, to emerge after the Dissolution as Richard of Eastwell. He also suggests that H7 and H8 knew all about it. That seems so unlikely - given their usual way with Plantagenets his head wouldn't have remained on his shoulders for very long.
> I'd like to think they got away but it seems likely they died in the Tower. The Buckingham/Beaufort/Morton consortium is my choose as villain.
>
>
>

Some Touch of Pity is better written imo.
Paul

On 24 Jan 2013, at 00:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:

> Pamela, follow up with Sunne in Splendor a fiction by Sharon Penman! It brings everything to life!
> Ishita
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, I will find and read them!
>>
>> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Pamela Bain wrote:
>>
>>> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
>>
>> Carol responds:
>>
>> Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
>>
>> Carol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Pamela: for other novels about Richard, I would suggest the great "Under the Hog" (hate that title!) by Patrick Carleton. You can usually find a cheap paperback on Amazon. Another obscure but really good novel is Marion Palmer's "The White Boar." Both of these are less "romantic," and more about Richard's rule as Duke & King. But very human nonetheless. Maire.

--- In , Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Thank you, I will find and read them!
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" > wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> > I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ooh, Also The Seventh Son. I re read it recently and like R and A's portrayal. I can get a sense of the man: sardonic and efficient! But human nonetheless.
Love Some Touch of Pity/Broken Sword too.

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Jan 24, 2013, at 6:55 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:

> Pamela: for other novels about Richard, I would suggest the great "Under the Hog" (hate that title!) by Patrick Carleton. You can usually find a cheap paperback on Amazon. Another obscure but really good novel is Marion Palmer's "The White Boar." Both of these are less "romantic," and more about Richard's rule as Duke & King. But very human nonetheless. Maire.
>
> --- In , Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, I will find and read them!
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > > I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

I will......I had wondered how people felt about her books.

On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:48 PM, "Ishita Bandyo" <bandyoi@...<mailto:bandyoi@...>> wrote:



Pamela, follow up with Sunne in Splendor a fiction by Sharon Penman! It brings everything to life!
Ishita

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 23, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Pamela Bain pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>> wrote:

> Thank you, I will find and read them!
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela Bain wrote:
>
>> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I can't think of anyone better who is writing historical fiction today.
 
Liz
 

From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013, 13:37
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage

 
I will......I had wondered how people felt about her books.

On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:48 PM, "Ishita Bandyo" mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.commailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>> wrote:



Pamela, follow up with Sunne in Splendor a fiction by Sharon Penman! It brings everything to life!
Ishita

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 23, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Pamela Bain mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com> wrote:

> Thank you, I will find and read them!
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.commailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela Bain wrote:
>
>> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Absolutely! - you can also follow her on Facebook - she posts everyday &
you can ask her questions & she actually answers them (unlike Philippa
Gregory!!)
Sharon has 8 I think medieval historical fictions - all worth reading -
ending in the superb Sunne In Splendour - as Liz says bringing it all to
life...
Lisa

On 24 January 2013 10:01, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I can't think of anyone better who is writing historical fiction today.
>
> Liz
>
>
> From: Pamela Bain pbain@...>
> To: ">"
> >
> Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013, 13:37
> Subject: Re: Portugese marriage
>
>
> I will......I had wondered how people felt about her books.
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:48 PM, "Ishita Bandyo" mailto:
> bandyoi%40yahoo.commailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> Pamela, follow up with Sunne in Splendor a fiction by Sharon Penman! It
> brings everything to life!
> Ishita
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Pamela Bain mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you, I will find and read them!
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" mailto:
> justcarol67%40yahoo.commailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> >> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the
> welcome from so many.
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray
> Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent),
> followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned
> King."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>

Again my thanks for all the suggestions. Might I suggest that the main site have a list of recommended reading!

On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:55 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland@...>> wrote:



Pamela: for other novels about Richard, I would suggest the great "Under the Hog" (hate that title!) by Patrick Carleton. You can usually find a cheap paperback on Amazon. Another obscure but really good novel is Marion Palmer's "The White Boar." Both of these are less "romantic," and more about Richard's rule as Duke & King. But very human nonetheless. Maire.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Thank you, I will find and read them!
>
> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" > wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> > I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the welcome from so many.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent), followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned King."
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

There is!
http://r3.org/nonfiction.html

http://r3.org/biblio.html

New site is being worked on as we speak - if anyone wants to add to these
lists - please let me know

Lisa

On 24 January 2013 10:15, Pamela Bain <pbain@...> wrote:

> Again my thanks for all the suggestions. Might I suggest that the main
> site have a list of recommended reading!
>
> On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:55 AM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...
> <mailto:mairemulholland@...>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela: for other novels about Richard, I would suggest the great "Under
> the Hog" (hate that title!) by Patrick Carleton. You can usually find a
> cheap paperback on Amazon. Another obscure but really good novel is Marion
> Palmer's "The White Boar." Both of these are less "romantic," and more
> about Richard's rule as Duke & King. But very human nonetheless. Maire.
>
> --- In <mailto:
> %40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, I will find and read them!
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > > I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the
> welcome from so many.
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray
> Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent),
> followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned
> King."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
<https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>

I have read them all!!!! I hesitated to mention that.... Thanks, I know I am in the right place with you all.
Back to the times, I think in the long and misty past life, LIFE, as we know it, was not there. Death was an every day situation, in childbirth, from minor ailments, ravaging diseases, battle, work, Injury, etc. If we look to the past through the lens of our own times (not dismissing what anyone has gone through) we certainly are not as strong or inured to loss. How many of our immediate families have grandmothers who lost as many children as survived? How many soldiers returned from WW I and WW II came back utterly traumatized? And as far as tussling over power, ha ha, I think we only need to look at politics in our countries.
I will say once again, Richard the man, had to become Richard the King. And with that came added problems, schemes, and constant fighting. If he snapped at any time, who could blame him?
This is my humble opinion. Now, I shall start reading and get "up to snuff" on my facts.

On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:07 AM, "Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique" <lisa.holtjones@...> wrote:

> Absolutely! - you can also follow her on Facebook - she posts everyday &
> you can ask her questions & she actually answers them (unlike Philippa
> Gregory!!)
> Sharon has 8 I think medieval historical fictions - all worth reading -
> ending in the superb Sunne In Splendour - as Liz says bringing it all to
> life...
> Lisa
>
> On 24 January 2013 10:01, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> I can't think of anyone better who is writing historical fiction today.
>>
>> Liz
>>
>>
>> From: Pamela Bain pbain@...>
>> To: ">"
>> >
>> Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013, 13:37
>> Subject: Re: Portugese marriage
>>
>>
>> I will......I had wondered how people felt about her books.
>>
>> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:48 PM, "Ishita Bandyo" mailto:
>> bandyoi%40yahoo.commailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Pamela, follow up with Sunne in Splendor a fiction by Sharon Penman! It
>> brings everything to life!
>> Ishita
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Jan 23, 2013, at 7:35 PM, Pamela Bain mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, I will find and read them!
>>>
>>> On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" mailto:
>> justcarol67%40yahoo.commailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pamela Bain wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the
>> welcome from so many.
>>>
>>> Carol responds:
>>>
>>> Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray
>> Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent),
>> followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned
>> King."
>>>
>>> Carol
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Lisa
> The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
> Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
> Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329
>
> www.Antiques-Boutique.com <http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
> Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*
> View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
> <https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Thank you..... Obviously, I didn't take the time to explore every link.
Where is you Antiques Boutique? Another of my fiendish interests!!!!!

On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:25 AM, "Lisa @ The Antiques Boutique" <lisa.holtjones@...<mailto:lisa.holtjones@...>> wrote:



There is!
http://r3.org/nonfiction.html

http://r3.org/biblio.html

New site is being worked on as we speak - if anyone wants to add to these
lists - please let me know

Lisa

On 24 January 2013 10:15, Pamela Bain pbain@...<mailto:pbain%40bmbi.com>> wrote:

> Again my thanks for all the suggestions. Might I suggest that the main
> site have a list of recommended reading!
>
> On Jan 24, 2013, at 5:55 AM, "mairemulholland" mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com>
> mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland%40yahoo.com>>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela: for other novels about Richard, I would suggest the great "Under
> the Hog" (hate that title!) by Patrick Carleton. You can usually find a
> cheap paperback on Amazon. Another obscure but really good novel is Marion
> Palmer's "The White Boar." Both of these are less "romantic," and more
> about Richard's rule as Duke & King. But very human nonetheless. Maire.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
%40yahoogroups.com<http://40yahoogroups.com>>, Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > Thank you, I will find and read them!
> >
> > On Jan 23, 2013, at 6:32 PM, "justcarol67" > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > > I would very much welcome suggestions for reading. I appreciate the
> welcome from so many.
> >
> > Carol responds:
> >
> > Hi, and welcome, Pamela. I would definitely start with Paul Murray
> Kendall's "Richard the Third" (somewhat dated but still excellent),
> followed by Annette Carson's much more recent "Richard III: The Maligned
> King."
> >
> > Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Lisa
The Antiques Boutique & Ceramic Restoration/Conservation Services
Baddeck, Nova Scotia.
Tel: 902 295 9013 / 1329

www.Antiques-Boutique.com<http://www.Antiques-Boutique.com> http://www.antiques-boutique.com/>
Like us on *www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*<http://www.facebook.com/TheAntiquesBoutique*>
View our Ceramic Restoration Photos
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.398988066799604.100100.108554399176307&type=1&l=cd560aff9f>

I think this book was retitled The Broken Sword for it's American edition, so beware?

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> Some Touch of Pity is better written imo.

Yes it is. No idea why.
Paul

On 24 Jan 2013, at 16:06, wednesday_mc wrote:

> I think this book was retitled The Broken Sword for it's American edition, so beware?
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>
>> Some Touch of Pity is better written imo.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

wednesday_mc wrote:
>
> > I think this book ["Some Touch of Pity"] was retitled The Broken Sword for it's American edition, so beware?

Paul Trevor Bale responded:
>
> Yes it is. No idea why.

Carol responds:

I suspect because "The Broken Sword" would suggest Richard III to readers familiar with that "portrait" whereas "Some Touch of Pity" could be a modern romance novel for all the reader knows. Not that I like the title--or the novel, for that matter. "Sunne in Splendour," for all its length and "we be's," comes closer to the characters as I imagine them.

Carol

> I think Richard took the job once he was convinced his nephews were illegitimate - duty bound him.<

Exactly. Except for fame there would have been other ways for a good living... I wouldn´t be surprised if being king wasn´t as desirable as we imagine these days. The duties surely outnumbered the advantages.

I think Richard saw clearly what the future would look like if he wouldn´t take over the "wheel". I imagine him frowning at the prospect but weighing the possibilities he saw that he was "the better choice". Rather a logical decision and less emotional. He had the stregth, the diplomatic skills and the experience... With his nephews being illegitimate he was the one man who could control all the various political streamings and personal ambitions.

Marion Z

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> I think Richard took the job once he was convinced his nephews were illegitimate - duty bound him. I'm sure he had some ambition to be King, but he must have realized about 5 minutes into the job that he and Anne and Edward were at just as much risk as when he was Protector. So sad. Maire.
>
> --- In , eileen bates wrote:
> >
> > Welcome Pamela...you are very welcome. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:41, Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > > Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> > > Many thanks
> > >
> > > On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" eileenbates147@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > > > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> > > >>
> > > >> Carol
> > > >>
> > > >> Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

My gracious from the earliest of British Kings and Queens there has been almost nothing but, infighting, intrigue, calumny and worse. I cannot be easy now, much less in the days "when off with your head, was a literal happening".

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of marionziemke
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 8:33 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Portugese marriage



> I think Richard took the job once he was convinced his nephews were illegitimate - duty bound him.<

Exactly. Except for fame there would have been other ways for a good living... I wouldn´t be surprised if being king wasn´t as desirable as we imagine these days. The duties surely outnumbered the advantages.

I think Richard saw clearly what the future would look like if he wouldn´t take over the "wheel". I imagine him frowning at the prospect but weighing the possibilities he saw that he was "the better choice". Rather a logical decision and less emotional. He had the stregth, the diplomatic skills and the experience... With his nephews being illegitimate he was the one man who could control all the various political streamings and personal ambitions.

Marion Z

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> I think Richard took the job once he was convinced his nephews were illegitimate - duty bound him. I'm sure he had some ambition to be King, but he must have realized about 5 minutes into the job that he and Anne and Edward were at just as much risk as when he was Protector. So sad. Maire.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, eileen bates wrote:
> >
> > Welcome Pamela...you are very welcome. Eileen
> > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:41, Pamela Bain wrote:
> >
> > > Today is my first day to be a member, and you have me "hooked". Carry on, I am fascinated!
> > > Many thanks
> > >
> > > On Jan 22, 2013, at 11:30 AM, "eileen bates" eileenbates147@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Absolutely Carol....I think Richard....and especially Anne...would not have known a day free from worry for the future...what did it hold...I should imagine Anne in particular was really concerned over the future of their son and what would become of him if Richard was overthrown up until he died. And then of course worry would have given way to grief. How they must have longed for the old days when they lived at Middleham with Edward. To think that some consider that Richard usurped the thrown....I dont think so.....No sooner was Edward IV dead than the assassination plots begun. Eileen
> > > > On 22 Jan 2013, at 17:03, justcarol67 wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Poor Richard. I would not have wanted to be in his position.
> > > >>
> > > >> Carol
> > > >>
> > > >> Carol
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>