George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)

Wednesday wrote:
>
> Someone else will have to analyze George. All I can see is the spoiled, jealous brother of a rich king. Perhaps George's motto should have been, "More. Again. Now."

Carol responds:

Speaking of which, does anyone know George's actual motto? I tried to look it up and came up with a site linking him to the Scottish McClaren clan, whose motto (and war cry), "creag an tuirc," means--get this--"the boar's rock"!

http://www.houseofnames.com/clarence-family-crest

Could Richard have known of that motto when he took the boar for his own emblem? If not, it seems to be a remarkable coincidence. BTW, what was George's emblem?

Buckingham's motto was "souvente me souvene" ("remember me often" or "think of me often") and Warwick's was ""Soulement Une" ("the only one"), both of which speak for themselves.

By the way, in searching for Warwick's motto, I found this, which is actually about Richard: http://beforethesecondsleep.wordpress.com/category/warwick-the-kingmaker/ I haven't had time to look at it properly, but it seems highly favorable.

carol

George used Ex Honore De Clare. Clare is the Irish county where the Clarence title originates.
His emblem was the black Bull passant [walking] horned and hooved Or. Edward as Duke of York also used a bull passant, but crowned about the neck Or, with the head in profile, while George's looks out at us.
Paul


On 25 Jan 2013, at 22:40, justcarol67 wrote:

> Wednesday wrote:
>>
>> Someone else will have to analyze George. All I can see is the spoiled, jealous brother of a rich king. Perhaps George's motto should have been, "More. Again. Now."
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Speaking of which, does anyone know George's actual motto? I tried to look it up and came up with a site linking him to the Scottish McClaren clan, whose motto (and war cry), "creag an tuirc," means--get this--"the boar's rock"!
>
> http://www.houseofnames.com/clarence-family-crest
>
> Could Richard have known of that motto when he took the boar for his own emblem? If not, it seems to be a remarkable coincidence. BTW, what was George's emblem?
>
> Buckingham's motto was "souvente me souvene" ("remember me often" or "think of me often") and Warwick's was ""Soulement Une" ("the only one"), both of which speak for themselves.
>
> By the way, in searching for Warwick's motto, I found this, which is actually about Richard: http://beforethesecondsleep.wordpress.com/category/warwick-the-kingmaker/ I haven't had time to look at it properly, but it seems highly favorable.
>
> carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> George used Ex Honore De Clare. Clare is the Irish county where the Clarence title originates.
> His emblem was the black Bull passant [walking] horned and hooved Or. Edward as Duke of York also used a bull passant, but crowned about the neck Or, with the head in profile, while George's looks out at us.
> Paul

Carol responds:

Thank you, Paul. Can you tell me your source? I couldn't find anything on the topic online. BTW, it seems appropriate that Edward would give George an Irish title since George was born in Dublin.

Speaking of titles and back on the topic of Edward's possible illegitimacy (which I don't believe in), Cynthia Sally Haggard (author of "The Thwarted Queen") argues that Earl of March (Edward) was a lesser title than Earl of Rutland (Edmund), and that the Duke of York was deliberately slighting Edward (without openly labeling him a bastard) by giving him that title. Anything to that claim? I would think that a duke of the time would deliberately slight his wife's bastard by giving him *no* title--and putting him in a monastery into the bargain, not to mention divorcing his wife. But to all appearances, theirs was a happy marriage.

Carol

And there are Cecily's own words, in her will, that Edward was the lawful
son of her husband.

Karen

From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 16:31:06 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was:
Richard's grief)






Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> George used Ex Honore De Clare. Clare is the Irish county where the Clarence
title originates.
> His emblem was the black Bull passant [walking] horned and hooved Or. Edward
as Duke of York also used a bull passant, but crowned about the neck Or, with
the head in profile, while George's looks out at us.
> Paul

Carol responds:

Thank you, Paul. Can you tell me your source? I couldn't find anything on
the topic online. BTW, it seems appropriate that Edward would give George an
Irish title since George was born in Dublin.

Speaking of titles and back on the topic of Edward's possible illegitimacy
(which I don't believe in), Cynthia Sally Haggard (author of "The Thwarted
Queen") argues that Earl of March (Edward) was a lesser title than Earl of
Rutland (Edmund), and that the Duke of York was deliberately slighting
Edward (without openly labeling him a bastard) by giving him that title.
Anything to that claim? I would think that a duke of the time would
deliberately slight his wife's bastard by giving him *no* title--and putting
him in a monastery into the bargain, not to mention divorcing his wife. But
to all appearances, theirs was a happy marriage.

Carol

I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
Paul

On 26 Jan 2013, at 16:31, justcarol67 wrote:

> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>
>> George used Ex Honore De Clare. Clare is the Irish county where the Clarence title originates.
>> His emblem was the black Bull passant [walking] horned and hooved Or. Edward as Duke of York also used a bull passant, but crowned about the neck Or, with the head in profile, while George's looks out at us.
>> Paul
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thank you, Paul. Can you tell me your source? I couldn't find anything on the topic online. BTW, it seems appropriate that Edward would give George an Irish title since George was born in Dublin.
>
> Speaking of titles and back on the topic of Edward's possible illegitimacy (which I don't believe in), Cynthia Sally Haggard (author of "The Thwarted Queen") argues that Earl of March (Edward) was a lesser title than Earl of Rutland (Edmund), and that the Duke of York was deliberately slighting Edward (without openly labeling him a bastard) by giving him that title. Anything to that claim? I would think that a duke of the time would deliberately slight his wife's bastard by giving him *no* title--and putting him in a monastery into the bargain, not to mention divorcing his wife. But to all appearances, theirs was a happy marriage.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).

Carol

Thanks for that Paul - I've been looking for a book on WotR heraldry for
years:) Ordered it from Lance & Longbow Society.

cheers

Jac



In message <312EC03C-24C3-41EC-8602-FBFEB210530F@...>, Paul Trevor
Bale <paul.bale@...> writes
>I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of
>the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published
>by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every
>conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with
>the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book
>by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
>Paul
>
>On 26 Jan 2013, at 16:31, justcarol67 wrote:
>
>> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>>
>>> George used Ex Honore De Clare. Clare is the Irish county where the
>>>Clarence title originates.
>>> His emblem was the black Bull passant [walking] horned and hooved
>>>Or. Edward as Duke of York also used a bull passant, but crowned
>>>about the neck Or, with the head in profile, while George's looks out >>>at us.
>>> Paul
>>
>> Carol responds:
>>
>> Thank you, Paul. Can you tell me your source? I couldn't find
>>anything on the topic online. BTW, it seems appropriate that Edward
>>would give George an Irish title since George was born in Dublin.
>>
>> Speaking of titles and back on the topic of Edward's possible
>>illegitimacy (which I don't believe in), Cynthia Sally Haggard (author
>>of "The Thwarted Queen") argues that Earl of March (Edward) was a
>>lesser title than Earl of Rutland (Edmund), and that the Duke of York
>>was deliberately slighting Edward (without openly labeling him a
>>bastard) by giving him that title. Anything to that claim? I would
>>think that a duke of the time would deliberately slight his wife's
>>bastard by giving him *no* title--and putting him in a monastery into
>>the bargain, not to mention divorcing his wife. But to all
>>appearances, theirs was a happy marriage.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--

I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.

If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.

It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


 
Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).

Carol

David Rayner wrote:
>
> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>
> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake. [snip}

Carol responds:

Hi, David. Maybe you can answer my questions about Clarence's motto. Do you know when and why he adopted it and whether it's the same as Lionel's? (I assume that the motto Paul quoted, "Ex Honore de Clare," is correct.)

It does make sense that the Clarence title derives from the Norman de Clare family and not the Irish County Clare even though that destroys my theory of George's birthplace being one reason he was given that title. I suppose that it was the most prestigious title still available since Edward was presumably holding his own titles (Duke of York, Earl of March) in reserve for his as-yet nonexistent sons. (Right? Wrong?)

Carol

Carol

"the Clarence title was not used again until 1789 ........"
.......... although it was destined for a would be Consort: Lord Guildford Dudley.

----- Original Message -----
From: david rayner
To:
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)



I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.

If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.

It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence

________________________________
From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)



Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.

Carol responds:

Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).

Carol

Sorry, I do the heraldic banners (coats of arms), not the achievements with crests, motoes and supporters.

There is a story (it's definitely in Shakespeare, so judge for yourself how authentic) that Edward originally awarded Clarence to Richard, and Gloucester to George, but Richard asked to swop as the Gloucester title was "too ominous".

Its also been suggested that the title has a Greek origin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glarentza


The de Clares did have extensive estates in Ireland, but I don't believe this was the origin of the title. The Duke of York derived his Earldom of Ulster from his de Burgh ancestors.


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 21:20
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


 
David Rayner wrote:
>
> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>
> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake. [snip}

Carol responds:

Hi, David. Maybe you can answer my questions about Clarence's motto. Do you know when and why he adopted it and whether it's the same as Lionel's? (I assume that the motto Paul quoted, "Ex Honore de Clare," is correct.)

It does make sense that the Clarence title derives from the Norman de Clare family and not the Irish County Clare even though that destroys my theory of George's birthplace being one reason he was given that title. I suppose that it was the most prestigious title still available since Edward was presumably holding his own titles (Duke of York, Earl of March) in reserve for his as-yet nonexistent sons. (Right? Wrong?)

Carol

Carol

When can we expect yours David. You've mentioned it a number of times.
Paul

On 26 Jan 2013, at 20:52, david rayner wrote:

> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>
> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.
>
> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>
>
>
> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>
>> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

David said:

It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare.
 
 
 
Liz replied:  Clare is just lovely and I prefer it to Lavenham as it isn't as touristy (although of course Lavenham is gorgeous).  I often drive up there in the summer although I still haven't visited Clare Priory where, amongst others, Edward Mortimer and Lionel of Antwerp (Duke of Clarence) are apparently both buried. 

Ooo...I stayed at Lavenham Priory last year and visited Clare Priory..Clare Priory quite small but lovely...and wonderful to see the plaque there placed by the Society....Eileen

--- In , liz williams wrote:
>
> David said:
>
> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare.
>  
>  
>  
> Liz replied:  Clare is just lovely and I prefer it to Lavenham as it isn't as touristy (although of course Lavenham is gorgeous).  I often drive up there in the summer although I still haven't visited Clare Priory where, amongst others, Edward Mortimer and Lionel of Antwerp (Duke of Clarence) are apparently both buried. 
>
>
>

I'm up to the Stanleys today. I will post the data in files when I've finished Zouche of Bulwick.

8677 names currently (excluding wives), including 35 Stanleys. Granted that many of these are little more than names, but it's possible to extrapolate correct arms for most of them using the standard cadency system.

The survey includes men living from 1453 to 1500. Should be done by the end of the year.


________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 27 January 2013, 10:28
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


 
When can we expect yours David. You've mentioned it a number of times.
Paul

On 26 Jan 2013, at 20:52, david rayner wrote:

> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>
> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.
>
> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>
>
>
> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>
>> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

I look forward to it David. Will there be colour illustrations too?
Paul
- cheeky to ask I know!
On 27 Jan 2013, at 18:18, david rayner wrote:

> I'm up to the Stanleys today. I will post the data in files when I've finished Zouche of Bulwick.
>
> 8677 names currently (excluding wives), including 35 Stanleys. Granted that many of these are little more than names, but it's possible to extrapolate correct arms for most of them using the standard cadency system.
>
> The survey includes men living from 1453 to 1500. Should be done by the end of the year.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 27 January 2013, 10:28
> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>
>
>
> When can we expect yours David. You've mentioned it a number of times.
> Paul
>
> On 26 Jan 2013, at 20:52, david rayner wrote:
>
>> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>>
>> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.
>>
>> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
>> To:
>> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
>> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
>>
>> Carol responds:
>>
>> Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).
>>
>> Carol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

Its in the form of an Excel sheet; there may be an early version already somewhere in files.

But I do attach my renderings of the arms, in the form of square flags. These are pretty crude, done in 16 bit paint, but give the basic layout. I usually do one for the head of the family, one for eldest son (with a label), and one with quarterings relevant to the 15th C. 
I'm a little unsure of including these in the post, as I may use them in a published work at some time. I've thought of contacting the Freezywater team and suggesting they use them to update their own publications, but they might not appreciate me finding so many errors in their own research...

I'll attach a sample, but it may not work in this format.  


________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 11:52
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


 
I look forward to it David. Will there be colour illustrations too?
Paul
- cheeky to ask I know!
On 27 Jan 2013, at 18:18, david rayner wrote:

> I'm up to the Stanleys today. I will post the data in files when I've finished Zouche of Bulwick.
>
> 8677 names currently (excluding wives), including 35 Stanleys. Granted that many of these are little more than names, but it's possible to extrapolate correct arms for most of them using the standard cadency system.
>
> The survey includes men living from 1453 to 1500. Should be done by the end of the year.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 27 January 2013, 10:28
> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>
>
>
> When can we expect yours David. You've mentioned it a number of times.
> Paul
>
> On 26 Jan 2013, at 20:52, david rayner wrote:
>
>> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>>
>> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.
>>
>> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
>> To:
>> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
>> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
>>
>> Carol responds:
>>
>> Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).
>>
>> Carol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

David
May I suggest that you use a web site for your drawings etc this would keep them secure and you could only enable them to recognized or acceptable addresses.
That way all your hard work will not end up for free on the Internet especially if you make them read only.
George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 28, 2013, at 1:39 PM, david rayner <theblackprussian@...> wrote:

> Its in the form of an Excel sheet; there may be an early version already somewhere in files.
>
> But I do attach my renderings of the arms, in the form of square flags. These are pretty crude, done in 16 bit paint, but give the basic layout. I usually do one for the head of the family, one for eldest son (with a label), and one with quarterings relevant to the 15th C.
> I'm a little unsure of including these in the post, as I may use them in a published work at some time. I've thought of contacting the Freezywater team and suggesting they use them to update their own publications, but they might not appreciate me finding so many errors in their own research...
>
> I'll attach a sample, but it may not work in this format.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 11:52
> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>
>
>
> I look forward to it David. Will there be colour illustrations too?
> Paul
> - cheeky to ask I know!
> On 27 Jan 2013, at 18:18, david rayner wrote:
>
> > I'm up to the Stanleys today. I will post the data in files when I've finished Zouche of Bulwick.
> >
> > 8677 names currently (excluding wives), including 35 Stanleys. Granted that many of these are little more than names, but it's possible to extrapolate correct arms for most of them using the standard cadency system.
> >
> > The survey includes men living from 1453 to 1500. Should be done by the end of the year.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, 27 January 2013, 10:28
> > Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
> >
> >
> >
> > When can we expect yours David. You've mentioned it a number of times.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 26 Jan 2013, at 20:52, david rayner wrote:
> >
> >> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
> >>
> >> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.
> >>
> >> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.
> >>
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
> >> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
> >>
> >> Carol responds:
> >>
> >> Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).
> >>
> >> Carol
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>

Yes, read only is definitely an option. The flags are re sized to fit into a standard Excel row, so I'll have to find out if they can size back up again after the document had been formatted read only. 

The attachment didn't seem to work, I'll see if I can post something in files.

________________________________
From: david rayner <theblackprussian@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 18:39
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


 
Its in the form of an Excel sheet; there may be an early version already somewhere in files.

But I do attach my renderings of the arms, in the form of square flags. These are pretty crude, done in 16 bit paint, but give the basic layout. I usually do one for the head of the family, one for eldest son (with a label), and one with quarterings relevant to the 15th C. 
I'm a little unsure of including these in the post, as I may use them in a published work at some time. I've thought of contacting the Freezywater team and suggesting they use them to update their own publications, but they might not appreciate me finding so many errors in their own research...

I'll attach a sample, but it may not work in this format.  

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 11:52
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


 
I look forward to it David. Will there be colour illustrations too?
Paul
- cheeky to ask I know!
On 27 Jan 2013, at 18:18, david rayner wrote:

> I'm up to the Stanleys today. I will post the data in files when I've finished Zouche of Bulwick.
>
> 8677 names currently (excluding wives), including 35 Stanleys. Granted that many of these are little more than names, but it's possible to extrapolate correct arms for most of them using the standard cadency system.
>
> The survey includes men living from 1453 to 1500. Should be done by the end of the year.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 27 January 2013, 10:28
> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>
>
>
> When can we expect yours David. You've mentioned it a number of times.
> Paul
>
> On 26 Jan 2013, at 20:52, david rayner wrote:
>
>> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>>
>> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.
>>
>> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
>> To:
>> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
>> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
>>
>> Carol responds:
>>
>> Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).
>>
>> Carol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!

david rayner wrote:
>
> Its in the form of an Excel sheet; there may be an early version already somewhere in files.

[snip]

> I'll attach a sample, but it may not work in this format.

Carol responds:

Hi, David. Theoretically you can't attach files in a Yahoo group though some people have somehow managed to do it. You might have better luck uploading your sample to the Files. You can check the option to announce the new file to the group. I'm sure that many of us would be interested.

It seems a shame that you've done all this work without already having a publisher. I'm sure that you can find one who is interested. Unfortunately, these days, they generally require a formal book proposal for nonfiction works, but you might start with a query letter (and a sample of your work) to see if they're interested before going to all that trouble. You can do a Google search to find publishers interested in heraldic works.

Carol

Actually there are some earlier examples of the flags already in files. Most of these have been updated, but they give the idea of what the flags are like.


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 19:37
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


 
david rayner wrote:
>
> Its in the form of an Excel sheet; there may be an early version already somewhere in files.

[snip]

> I'll attach a sample, but it may not work in this format.

Carol responds:

Hi, David. Theoretically you can't attach files in a Yahoo group though some people have somehow managed to do it. You might have better luck uploading your sample to the Files. You can check the option to announce the new file to the group. I'm sure that many of us would be interested.

It seems a shame that you've done all this work without already having a publisher. I'm sure that you can find one who is interested. Unfortunately, these days, they generally require a formal book proposal for nonfiction works, but you might start with a query letter (and a sample of your work) to see if they're interested before going to all that trouble. You can do a Google search to find publishers interested in heraldic works.

Carol

David:

It will not work in the Yahoo forum as it is text only ( this format is free but a full Graphic interface is not)

You need to look at a FTP site or send it directly as an attachment to the person interested in the data.

George



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of david rayner
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 1:51 PM
To:
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)





Yes, read only is definitely an option. The flags are re sized to fit into a standard Excel row, so I'll have to find out if they can size back up again after the document had been formatted read only.

The attachment didn't seem to work, I'll see if I can post something in files.

________________________________
From: david rayner theblackprussian@... <mailto:theblackprussian%40yahoo.co.uk> >
To: " <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> " <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 18:39
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)



Its in the form of an Excel sheet; there may be an early version already somewhere in files.

But I do attach my renderings of the arms, in the form of square flags. These are pretty crude, done in 16 bit paint, but give the basic layout. I usually do one for the head of the family, one for eldest son (with a label), and one with quarterings relevant to the 15th C.
I'm a little unsure of including these in the post, as I may use them in a published work at some time. I've thought of contacting the Freezywater team and suggesting they use them to update their own publications, but they might not appreciate me finding so many errors in their own research...

I'll attach a sample, but it may not work in this format.

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@... <mailto:paul.bale%40sky.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 11:52
Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)


I look forward to it David. Will there be colour illustrations too?
Paul
- cheeky to ask I know!
On 27 Jan 2013, at 18:18, david rayner wrote:

> I'm up to the Stanleys today. I will post the data in files when I've finished Zouche of Bulwick.
>
> 8677 names currently (excluding wives), including 35 Stanleys. Granted that many of these are little more than names, but it's possible to extrapolate correct arms for most of them using the standard cadency system.
>
> The survey includes men living from 1453 to 1500. Should be done by the end of the year.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@... <mailto:paul.bale%40sky.com> >
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 27 January 2013, 10:28
> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>
>
>
> When can we expect yours David. You've mentioned it a number of times.
> Paul
>
> On 26 Jan 2013, at 20:52, david rayner wrote:
>
>> I have the heraldic banners books. In the course of my research I've found hundreds of errors in it, and am compiling my own version which will be error free and be about 75% bigger.
>>
>> If the other Freezywater book told you that George of Clarence's title is Irish, then that is another mistake.
>>
>> It is in fact derived from the Suffolk manor and castle of Clare. The de Clare family, Earls of Hertford, were usually known as Earls of Clare, since this was their principle manor. The York family inherited it as part of their 1/3 share of the Clare inheritance after the last Earl was killed at Bannockburn. There was no Earl of Hertford as such in the middle ages, and after George's death the Clarence title was not used again until 1789, with Hertford being revived for on eof the Seymours.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_clarence
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@... <mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com> >
>> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:39
>> Subject: Re: George of Clarence's motto (Was: Richard's grief)
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a marvellous book called Standards, badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. First published by Freezywater Publications in 1992 I have seen copies at almost every conference I've been to since. Beautifully illustrated in colour with the banners of 36 of the main participants. There is a companion book by Pat McGill called Heraldic Banners of the WOTR.
>>
>> Carol responds:
>>
>> Thanks very much, Paul. Maybe someday when I'm rich, I can add that book to my collection. Does the author indicate at what point George adopted his motto? Unlike Richard's, it reveals nothing about his own personality. It sounds as if he adopted it from the previous holder of the title (Lionel, Duke of Clarence, his great-great grandfather, if I'm counting my generations correctly).
>>
>> Carol
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Richard Liveth Yet!