R3 Bones

During the parking lot dig was there only one skeleton found? One would think that other Bosworth combatants might have been included in that area ...
Ray

Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after the battle the winning side had the spoils.
Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain power or favor.
As the Plantagenet era ended at Bosworth the Tudor usurpers made sure that no one was left to act as a potential leader, remember that history is always written by the winners!
To date no mass burial has been found however this may be due to the fact that the battlefield position had been misplaced, perhaps due to all the interest over Bosworth and R3 a full geophysical survey may take place.

George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 30, 2013, at 5:43 PM, raymond long <rrl1124@...> wrote:

>
> During the parking lot dig was there only one skeleton found? One would think that other Bosworth combatants might have been included in that area ...
> Ray
>
>
>
>

Hi, Ray -



There was one other skeleton found during the dig. It was a disarticulated
female skeleton found in a different part of what would have been the
chapel. The fact that it was disarticulated suggests that it was reburied.
Apparently the team had a list of the names of seven individuals who might
still be buried there, and the only female was one one of the founders of
the Priory.



Richard's body was brought back to Leicester to be displayed after the
battle. After a couple of days, the Greyfriars took possession of the body
to give it a proper Christian burial, but without the usual solemnities and
in a place where the public wouldn't have access, a plus from Henry VII's
point of view, as his grave would not become a place of pilgrimage. Richard
was said to have been buried in the choir, a place of honour.



So far as I know, there are no indications that any others of the Bosworth
fallen were buried at the Greyfriars. The team didn't find any bones of any
deceased friars,either, but then they didn't find the graveyard for the
friars. And apparently there were probably other luminaries buried there who
may have been reburied elsewhere at the time of the Dissolution of the
Monasteries.



Going from memory - apologies in advance if I've misstated anything.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of raymond long
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:43 PM
To:
Subject: R3 Bones






During the parking lot dig was there only one skeleton found? One would
think that other Bosworth combatants might have been included in that area
...
Ray

Very interesting, thank you for the information. I too was wondering.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 30, 2013, at 5:16 PM, "Johanne Tournier" <jltournier60@...<mailto:jltournier60@...>> wrote:



Hi, Ray -

There was one other skeleton found during the dig. It was a disarticulated
female skeleton found in a different part of what would have been the
chapel. The fact that it was disarticulated suggests that it was reburied.
Apparently the team had a list of the names of seven individuals who might
still be buried there, and the only female was one one of the founders of
the Priory.

Richard's body was brought back to Leicester to be displayed after the
battle. After a couple of days, the Greyfriars took possession of the body
to give it a proper Christian burial, but without the usual solemnities and
in a place where the public wouldn't have access, a plus from Henry VII's
point of view, as his grave would not become a place of pilgrimage. Richard
was said to have been buried in the choir, a place of honour.

So far as I know, there are no indications that any others of the Bosworth
fallen were buried at the Greyfriars. The team didn't find any bones of any
deceased friars,either, but then they didn't find the graveyard for the
friars. And apparently there were probably other luminaries buried there who
may have been reburied elsewhere at the time of the Dissolution of the
Monasteries.

Going from memory - apologies in advance if I've misstated anything.

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...<mailto:jltournier60%40hotmail.com>

or jltournier@...<mailto:jltournier%40xcountry.tv>

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of raymond long
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:43 PM
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: R3 Bones

During the parking lot dig was there only one skeleton found? One would
think that other Bosworth combatants might have been included in that area
...
Ray

Johanne, thanks very much for this information. I had not heard about the female bones.

Ray


-----Original Message-----
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To: <>
Sent: Wed, Jan 30, 2013 6:16 pm
Subject: RE: R3 Bones




Hi, Ray -

There was one other skeleton found during the dig. It was a disarticulated
female skeleton found in a different part of what would have been the
chapel. The fact that it was disarticulated suggests that it was reburied.
Apparently the team had a list of the names of seven individuals who might
still be buried there, and the only female was one one of the founders of
the Priory.

Richard's body was brought back to Leicester to be displayed after the
battle. After a couple of days, the Greyfriars took possession of the body
to give it a proper Christian burial, but without the usual solemnities and
in a place where the public wouldn't have access, a plus from Henry VII's
point of view, as his grave would not become a place of pilgrimage. Richard
was said to have been buried in the choir, a place of honour.

So far as I know, there are no indications that any others of the Bosworth
fallen were buried at the Greyfriars. The team didn't find any bones of any
deceased friars,either, but then they didn't find the graveyard for the
friars. And apparently there were probably other luminaries buried there who
may have been reburied elsewhere at the time of the Dissolution of the
Monasteries.

Going from memory - apologies in advance if I've misstated anything.

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of raymond long
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 6:43 PM
To:
Subject: R3 Bones

During the parking lot dig was there only one skeleton found? One would
think that other Bosworth combatants might have been included in that area
...
Ray

Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> Very interesting, thank you for the information. I too was wondering.
>
Carol responds:

Pam (and Ray, who wrote a similar post), if you're not familiar with the University of Leicester's website about the dig, you'll find a lot of information there:

http://www2.le.ac.uk/projects/greyfriars/leicester

Carol

Hi, Ray 

You're right; the fact that the second set of bones were found hasn't been widely publicized. I recall it was noted at the time that the discovery of the Warrior's bones was announced, and then a few weeks later it was announced who they believe the lady to have been. I think the name was also released, but I don't have it handy. Perhaps someone else here recalls it. I do recall that there were two founders - a married couple.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne





~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of raymond long
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:45 PM
To:
Subject: Re: R3 Bones






Johanne, thanks very much for this information. I had not heard about the female bones.

Ray

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We had at the time something about the female remains on our branch website:  http://www.richardiii-nsw.org.au/?p=8366

Hope this helps.  I don't think there have been any more news about her since then.

Cheers, Dorothea



________________________________
From: Johanne Tournier <jltournier60@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013 10:57 AM
Subject: RE: R3 Bones


 
Hi, Ray 

You're right; the fact that the second set of bones were found hasn't been widely publicized. I recall it was noted at the time that the discovery of the Warrior's bones was announced, and then a few weeks later it was announced who they believe the lady to have been. I think the name was also released, but I don't have it handy. Perhaps someone else here recalls it. I do recall that there were two founders - a married couple.

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of raymond long
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 7:45 PM
To:
Subject: Re: R3 Bones

Johanne, thanks very much for this information. I had not heard about the female bones.

Ray

Recent Activity:

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George Butterfield wrote:

"Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after
the battle the winning side had the spoils.
Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if
they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain
power or favor.
As the Plantagenet era ended at Bosworth the Tudor usurpers made sure that
no one was left to act as a potential leader, remember that history is
always written by the winners!
To date no mass burial has been found however this may be due to the fact
that the battlefield position had been misplaced, perhaps due to all the
interest over Bosworth and R3 a full geophysical survey may take place."

I don't suppose there are any of those satellite photographs of the area?
Temples and cities in Egypt and elswhere have been spotted using them; what
are the chance of one, or possibly two, pits dug to hold all those bodies
show up?
One thought that just occurred to me, a slight morbid one, is that wouldn't
all those bodies/bones have an effect on what was growing? Could that be
used?
Doug

Doug
Space Imaging has come a long way in the last 10 or so years however ground disturbance and change of crop distribution is difficult at best in an undisturbed area. The proposed new battlefield is on private farm land and has changed greatly over 500 years, X-ray tomography may reveal something perhaps show medieval water distribution, so give better credence to understanding the battlefield.
As for a mass burial changing crop attributes I feel that after such a long time very little could be seen in a cultivated area. However as we know things do happen that can shed light on lost mysteries!
George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:59 PM, "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:

>
> George Butterfield wrote:
>
> "Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after
> the battle the winning side had the spoils.
> Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if
> they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain
> power or favor.
> As the Plantagenet era ended at Bosworth the Tudor usurpers made sure that
> no one was left to act as a potential leader, remember that history is
> always written by the winners!
> To date no mass burial has been found however this may be due to the fact
> that the battlefield position had been misplaced, perhaps due to all the
> interest over Bosworth and R3 a full geophysical survey may take place."
>
> I don't suppose there are any of those satellite photographs of the area?
> Temples and cities in Egypt and elswhere have been spotted using them; what
> are the chance of one, or possibly two, pits dug to hold all those bodies
> show up?
> One thought that just occurred to me, a slight morbid one, is that wouldn't
> all those bodies/bones have an effect on what was growing? Could that be
> used?
> Doug
>
>

Oh, that is a fantastic idea Douglass!

On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:57 PM, "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...<mailto:destama@...>> wrote:



George Butterfield wrote:

"Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after
the battle the winning side had the spoils.
Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if
they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain
power or favor.
As the Plantagenet era ended at Bosworth the Tudor usurpers made sure that
no one was left to act as a potential leader, remember that history is
always written by the winners!
To date no mass burial has been found however this may be due to the fact
that the battlefield position had been misplaced, perhaps due to all the
interest over Bosworth and R3 a full geophysical survey may take place."

I don't suppose there are any of those satellite photographs of the area?
Temples and cities in Egypt and elswhere have been spotted using them; what
are the chance of one, or possibly two, pits dug to hold all those bodies
show up?
One thought that just occurred to me, a slight morbid one, is that wouldn't
all those bodies/bones have an effect on what was growing? Could that be
used?
Doug

When you go to the 'old' Bosworth they do point to a corner where some bodies are said to have been buried. One of the churches round there is also reputed to have graves - was it Dadlington?  Don't think it was Sutton Cheney.


________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013, 14:14
Subject: Re: R3 Bones (mass grave)

Oh, that is a fantastic idea Douglass!

On Jan 30, 2013, at 9:57 PM, "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...<mailto:destama@...>> wrote:



George Butterfield wrote:

"Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after
the battle the winning side had the spoils.
Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if
they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain
power or favor.
As the Plantagenet era ended at Bosworth the Tudor usurpers made sure that
no one was left to act as a potential leader, remember that history is
always written by the winners!
To date no mass burial has been found however this may be due to the fact
that the battlefield position had been misplaced, perhaps due to all the
interest over Bosworth and R3 a full geophysical survey may take place."

I don't suppose there are any of those satellite photographs of the area?
Temples and cities in Egypt and elswhere have been spotted using them; what
are the chance of one, or possibly two, pits dug to hold all those bodies
show up?
One thought that just occurred to me, a slight morbid one, is that wouldn't
all those bodies/bones have an effect on what was growing? Could that be
used?
Doug









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I've checked. It is Dadlington where some of the fallen are said to have been buried - they petitioned for masses to be said for them. Hilary

--- In , George Butterfield wrote:
>
> Doug
> Space Imaging has come a long way in the last 10 or so years however ground disturbance and change of crop distribution is difficult at best in an undisturbed area. The proposed new battlefield is on private farm land and has changed greatly over 500 years, X-ray tomography may reveal something perhaps show medieval water distribution, so give better credence to understanding the battlefield.
> As for a mass burial changing crop attributes I feel that after such a long time very little could be seen in a cultivated area. However as we know things do happen that can shed light on lost mysteries!
> George
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jan 29, 2013, at 11:59 PM, "Douglas Eugene Stamate" wrote:
>
> >
> > George Butterfield wrote:
> >
> > "Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after
> > the battle the winning side had the spoils.
> > Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if
> > they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain
> > power or favor.
> > As the Plantagenet era ended at Bosworth the Tudor usurpers made sure that
> > no one was left to act as a potential leader, remember that history is
> > always written by the winners!
> > To date no mass burial has been found however this may be due to the fact
> > that the battlefield position had been misplaced, perhaps due to all the
> > interest over Bosworth and R3 a full geophysical survey may take place."
> >
> > I don't suppose there are any of those satellite photographs of the area?
> > Temples and cities in Egypt and elswhere have been spotted using them; what
> > are the chance of one, or possibly two, pits dug to hold all those bodies
> > show up?
> > One thought that just occurred to me, a slight morbid one, is that wouldn't
> > all those bodies/bones have an effect on what was growing? Could that be
> > used?
> > Doug
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

George Butterfield wrote:
>
> Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after the battle the winning side had the spoils. Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain power or favor.

[snip]

Carol responds:

Weren't the high-ranking dead buried individually, even those on the losing side? For example, the Duke of Norfolk was apparently buried at the Priory of Our Lady in Thetford.

http://www.richardiii.net/ww%20cr%20to%20hu.htm

I have no idea where Thetford is or whether it's close to one of Norfolk's manors. One thing is certain; his body wasn't given into his eldest son's custody. Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey, was arrested after Bosworth. (I haven't read anything about Norfolk's body being stripped.)

Also, does anyone know whether other high-ranking men who died fighting for Richard were given an individual burial? (Catesby doesn't count as he was executed and may not have even fought in the battle.) And what about John, Earl of Lincoln, after the Battle of Stoke?

Carol

If they could be recognized if you are dead stripped naked and left on a battlefield for days it is difficult to recognize what your station in life was, especially if the people who could claim your body were also killed.
Remember DNA has only just been used to identify dead from recent wars and in the 15 cent the only way to stop decay was a very crude form of embalming (most ancient technics had been lost to time)
The fact that the bodies of your defeated foe were stripped has been widely reported be it by the winning side or the small army of camp followers who apart from providing an army with "comforts" also had no qualms about mass theft from the dead.
Medieval battles were not the knights on white horses with squires that Hollywood would have you believe, it was brutal and bloody and very little chivalry went into it
George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 31, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
> George Butterfield wrote:
> >
> > Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after the battle the winning side had the spoils. Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain power or favor.
>
> [snip]
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Weren't the high-ranking dead buried individually, even those on the losing side? For example, the Duke of Norfolk was apparently buried at the Priory of Our Lady in Thetford.
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ww%20cr%20to%20hu.htm
>
> I have no idea where Thetford is or whether it's close to one of Norfolk's manors. One thing is certain; his body wasn't given into his eldest son's custody. Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey, was arrested after Bosworth. (I haven't read anything about Norfolk's body being stripped.)
>
> Also, does anyone know whether other high-ranking men who died fighting for Richard were given an individual burial? (Catesby doesn't count as he was executed and may not have even fought in the battle.) And what about John, Earl of Lincoln, after the Battle of Stoke?
>
> Carol
>
>

Yes it was, a ghastly experience in hard times.

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of George Butterfield
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 12:12 PM
To:
Subject: Re: R3 Bones (mass grave)



If they could be recognized if you are dead stripped naked and left on a battlefield for days it is difficult to recognize what your station in life was, especially if the people who could claim your body were also killed.
Remember DNA has only just been used to identify dead from recent wars and in the 15 cent the only way to stop decay was a very crude form of embalming (most ancient technics had been lost to time)
The fact that the bodies of your defeated foe were stripped has been widely reported be it by the winning side or the small army of camp followers who apart from providing an army with "comforts" also had no qualms about mass theft from the dead.
Medieval battles were not the knights on white horses with squires that Hollywood would have you believe, it was brutal and bloody and very little chivalry went into it
George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 31, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "justcarol67" justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67%40yahoo.com>> wrote:

>
> George Butterfield wrote:
> >
> > Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after the battle the winning side had the spoils. Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain power or favor.
>
> [snip]
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Weren't the high-ranking dead buried individually, even those on the losing side? For example, the Duke of Norfolk was apparently buried at the Priory of Our Lady in Thetford.
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ww%20cr%20to%20hu.htm
>
> I have no idea where Thetford is or whether it's close to one of Norfolk's manors. One thing is certain; his body wasn't given into his eldest son's custody. Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey, was arrested after Bosworth. (I haven't read anything about Norfolk's body being stripped.)
>
> Also, does anyone know whether other high-ranking men who died fighting for Richard were given an individual burial? (Catesby doesn't count as he was executed and may not have even fought in the battle.) And what about John, Earl of Lincoln, after the Battle of Stoke?
>
> Carol
>
>

George, every time I think of the way Richard, an anointed King's body was treated I cannot stop shuddering. H7 should at least have ordered his knights to be on look out for R's body.

I wonder how Cicely reacted to the massacre of her youngest's body.....To lose all  her grown sons violently, how awful is that? Do we know any of her reactions to Bosworth or H7 in general? I am shocked that she mentioned nothing about R3 in her will...... Did she disapprove of R taking the throne?



________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 1:14 PM
Subject: RE: R3 Bones (mass grave)


 
Yes it was, a ghastly experience in hard times.

________________________________
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of George Butterfield
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 12:12 PM
To:
Subject: Re: R3 Bones (mass grave)

If they could be recognized if you are dead stripped naked and left on a battlefield for days it is difficult to recognize what your station in life was, especially if the people who could claim your body were also killed.
Remember DNA has only just been used to identify dead from recent wars and in the 15 cent the only way to stop decay was a very crude form of embalming (most ancient technics had been lost to time)
The fact that the bodies of your defeated foe were stripped has been widely reported be it by the winning side or the small army of camp followers who apart from providing an army with "comforts" also had no qualms about mass theft from the dead.
Medieval battles were not the knights on white horses with squires that Hollywood would have you believe, it was brutal and bloody and very little chivalry went into it
George

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 31, 2013, at 12:52 PM, "justcarol67" justcarol67@...> wrote:

>
> George Butterfield wrote:
> >
> > Very unlikely as defeated dead were normally dumped in a mass grave after the battle the winning side had the spoils. Most of the dead prior to being buried were stripped of all valuables if they were of value then they may be held hostage or used as a pawn to gain power or favor.
>
> [snip]
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Weren't the high-ranking dead buried individually, even those on the losing side? For example, the Duke of Norfolk was apparently buried at the Priory of Our Lady in Thetford.
>
> http://www.richardiii.net/ww%20cr%20to%20hu.htm
>
> I have no idea where Thetford is or whether it's close to one of Norfolk's manors. One thing is certain; his body wasn't given into his eldest son's custody. Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey, was arrested after Bosworth. (I haven't read anything about Norfolk's body being stripped.)
>
> Also, does anyone know whether other high-ranking men who died fighting for Richard were given an individual burial? (Catesby doesn't count as he was executed and may not have even fought in the battle.) And what about John, Earl of Lincoln, after the Battle of Stoke?
>
> Carol
>
>