Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Hastings

Hastings was a near neighbour of Earl Rivers and his wife the Duchess of
Bedford. After her husband's death Elizabeth Grey had difficulties in
gaining part of her dower rights and securing the inheritance of her father
in law's estate for her son's (their was a dispute in the Grey family aswell
as with her mother in law) - she would have been in a particularly
vulnerable position given her mother in law (Elizabeth Ferrers) had
remarried to a Bourchier. It would have been natural for her to appeal to
someone in a position of influence - Hastings and her signed a marriage
contract a short while before she married Edward IV and given the rather
tough terms Hastings got out of her (the weaker party) it is suggestive that
even Hastings had no idea of the King's new interest. Afer the marriage she
trashed the contract (quite understandably given her new position) and
Thomas instead married Anne Holland. After his first wife's death Dorset
married Hasting's step daughter Cecily Bonville under more favourable terms.
The real fall out was political and between Anthony 2nd Earl Rivers and
Hastings rather than the Queen and Dorset. The fall out is often simply put
down to mistresses but actually it was political and as all three Hastings,
Rivers, and Dorset were very reliant on the King's goodwill for their
political power and influence it was natural that they jockeyed for
position. With the King's death Hastings was not in the best position
politically which is why he probably threw in his lot with Richard
initially. However the evidence for any great rift with the Queen is not
particularly strong - it was her compromise according to Croyland that
stopped Hastings storming off the Calais within days of the King's death.
He is also on record prior to the King's death as urging a correspondent
wanting help to also write to the Queen and Lord Dorset. Whilst a
consistant jockeying for position was natural it is not necessarily a sign
that under a relatively firm hand (in this case Edward IV's) that they
couldn't get along. The evidence that Hastings was plotting with the Queen
hence his untimely death is extremely poor and rests almost entirely on
Richard's own accusations who to be fair isn't the most impartial observer
in this instance but the claim that his relationship with the Wydeville's
was so poor that any plot is out of the question doesn't stand up either.
Though on that is useful to remember that up to mid June Croyland for
example states how elated Hastings was at the success of Buckingham and
Gloucester in taking political control, overawing the council, and removing
Rivers from any position of influence over the new reign.





----- Original Message -----
From: "mariewalsh2003" <marie@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Hastings


> >
> > But weren't Hastings and the Woodvilles literally bedmates? Wasn't
> > he married to one of Elizabeth Woodville's many sisters? I know
> > Buckingham was, but I remember being surprised to learn that
> Hastings
> > was also related to the "omnivorous Woodvilles." (I know, I
> know...I
> > hould have made notes of where I read everything, but I'm not that
> > organized.)
> >
> > And as soon as I sent off the last post, the name came to
> > me...Christopher Marlowe, of course.
>
> No, Hastings' wife was Warwick's sister. Hastings m. Katherine
> Neville, & Buckingham m. Katherine Woodville.
> The Tudor sources, if I remember rightly, say that after Edward IV
> died Mistress Shore became first Dorset's mistress then Hastings'.
> The idea is she may have acted as a go-between, but these two men
> hated each other, and had a history of quarrelling over their women,
> so perhaps this is not so likely. I don't know. They had sworn to be
> friends, though, over Edward's deathbed.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

--- In , "tim" <tmc_dale@y...>
wrote:
>
> Hastings was a near neighbour of Earl Rivers and his wife the
Duchess of
> Bedford. After her husband's death Elizabeth Grey had difficulties
in
> gaining part of her dower rights and securing the inheritance of
her father
> in law's estate for her son's (their was a dispute in the Grey
family aswell
> as with her mother in law) - she would have been in a particularly
> vulnerable position given her mother in law (Elizabeth Ferrers) had
> remarried to a Bourchier. It would have been natural for her to
appeal to
> someone in a position of influence - Hastings and her signed a
marriage
> contract a short while before she married Edward IV and given the
rather
> tough terms Hastings got out of her (the weaker party) it is
suggestive that
> even Hastings had no idea of the King's new interest. Afer the
marriage she
> trashed the contract (quite understandably given her new position)
and
> Thomas instead married Anne Holland. After his first wife's death
Dorset
> married Hasting's step daughter Cecily Bonville under more
favourable terms.
> The real fall out was political and between Anthony 2nd Earl Rivers
and
> Hastings rather than the Queen and Dorset. The fall out is often
simply put
> down to mistresses but actually it was political and as all three
Hastings,
> Rivers, and Dorset were very reliant on the King's goodwill for
their
> political power and influence it was natural that they jockeyed for
> position. With the King's death Hastings was not in the best
position
> politically which is why he probably threw in his lot with Richard
> initially. However the evidence for any great rift with the Queen
is not
> particularly strong - it was her compromise according to Croyland
that
> stopped Hastings storming off the Calais within days of the King's
death.
> He is also on record prior to the King's death as urging a
correspondent
> wanting help to also write to the Queen and Lord Dorset. Whilst a
> consistant jockeying for position was natural it is not necessarily
a sign
> that under a relatively firm hand (in this case Edward IV's) that
they
> couldn't get along. The evidence that Hastings was plotting with
the Queen
> hence his untimely death is extremely poor and rests almost
entirely on
> Richard's own accusations who to be fair isn't the most impartial
observer
> in this instance but the claim that his relationship with the
Wydeville's
> was so poor that any plot is out of the question doesn't stand up
either.
> Though on that is useful to remember that up to mid June Croyland
for
> example states how elated Hastings was at the success of Buckingham
and
> Gloucester in taking political control, overawing the council, and
removing
> Rivers from any position of influence over the new reign.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mariewalsh2003" <marie@r...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:06 AM
> Subject: Re: Hastings
>
>
> > >
> > > But weren't Hastings and the Woodvilles literally bedmates?
Wasn't
> > > he married to one of Elizabeth Woodville's many sisters? I know
> > > Buckingham was, but I remember being surprised to learn that
> > Hastings
> > > was also related to the "omnivorous Woodvilles." (I know, I
> > know...I
> > > hould have made notes of where I read everything, but I'm not
that
> > > organized.)
> > >
> > > And as soon as I sent off the last post, the name came to
> > > me...Christopher Marlowe, of course.
> >
> > No, Hastings' wife was Warwick's sister. Hastings m. Katherine
> > Neville, & Buckingham m. Katherine Woodville.
> > The Tudor sources, if I remember rightly, say that after Edward IV
> > died Mistress Shore became first Dorset's mistress then Hastings'.
> > The idea is she may have acted as a go-between, but these two men
> > hated each other, and had a history of quarrelling over their
women,
> > so perhaps this is not so likely. I don't know. They had sworn to
be
> > friends, though, over Edward's deathbed.

Thank you for setting me straight. (This is a wonderful interactive
history seminar.)

One thing that became apparent to me early on in my reading about
these times and people is that among the nobility and the landed
gentry, everyone is related to everyone, often in multiple and
fascinating ways. (And then there are all the shared names which even
mislead professionals such as Barbara Tuchman, Shakespeare, and
Thomas Costain...John Paston and his sons John and John, John Talbot
and his sons John and John, and who can forget Isabel Despenser and
her husbands Richard Beauchamp and Richard Beauchamp?)

Since the relationships and intricate interfamily loyalties and feuds
figure so prominently in the goings-on, I was very interested to
discover that Richard Duke of York (father of Richard, Edward, et
al...not Edward IV's son) had had a stepmother and her family name
was Clfford. It was a Clifford who killed York's son Edmund on the
Wakefield Bridge in what sounds like a murder rather than a death in
combat. I wonder if that relates to a personal family vendetta more
than to an incident of battle.
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >

In a message dated 6/10/03 3:53:18 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
tmc_dale@... writes:



>
> Hastings was a near neighbour of Earl Rivers and his wife the Duchess of
> Bedford. After her husband's death Elizabeth Grey had difficulties in
> gaining part of her dower rights and securing the inheritance of her father
> in law's estate for her son's (their was a dispute in the Grey family aswell
> as with her mother in law) - she would have been in a particularly
> vulnerable position given her mother in law (Elizabeth Ferrers) had
> remarried to a Bourchier. It would have been natural for her to appeal to
> someone in a position of influence - Hastings and her signed a marriage
> contract a short while before she married Edward IV and given the rather
> tough terms Hastings got out of her (the weaker party) it is suggestive that
> even Hastings had no idea of the King's new interest. Afer the marriage she
>



Tim--
Thank you for this info, which I confess is new to me. Elizabeth Wydville
Grey made a marriage contract with Hastings, which was later trashed because she
married Edward IV? Does this document still exist, or did you mean "trashed"
literally? What terrible terms did Hastings offer in the "prenup?" If
Hastings had tried to take advantage of Elizabeth Wydville's plight, it seems it
would sour her attitude towards him for life.

(Just as an aside, Elizabeth Ferrers, the Mum-in-law, was the daughter of
Isabel Mowbray, who was locked up in Gloucester Castle to starve to death by the
Countess of Shrewsbury.)


and

> Thomas instead married Anne Holland. After his first wife's death Dorset
>



Apologies to all, but I want to be certain of understanding these convoluted
relationships. Thomas married Edward IV's niece, but she died young, so he
turned to Cecily Bonville, who had been born to Katherine Neville Bonville
before her husband William was killed at Wakefield...? William Bonville's mother
was a Harrington, so he *must* have died on the Yorkist side (just guessing
here). It helps to explain the Dorset/Hastings friendship (and the sharing of
Shore), though that was a terrible way for Hastings to treat a stepdaughter.
Different times, different mores.

And after Dorset died in 1501, his widow Cecily married the son of the
treacherous Duke of Buckingham?



T
> he real fall out was political and between Anthony 2nd Earl Rivers and
> Hastings rather than the Queen and Dorset. The fall out is often simply put
> down to mistresses but actually it was political and as all three Hastings,
> Rivers, and Dorset were very reliant on the King's goodwill for their
> political power and influence it was natural that they jockeyed for
> position. With the King's death Hastings was not in the best position
> politically which is why he probably threw in his lot with Richard
> initially. However the evidence for any great rift with the Queen is not
> particularly strong - it was her compromise according to Croyland that
> stopped Hastings storming off the Calais within days of the King's death.
> He is also on record prior to the King's death as urging a correspondent
> wanting help to also write to the Queen and Lord Dorset. Whilst a
> consistant jockeying for position was natural it is not necessarily a sign
> that under a relatively firm hand (in this case Edward IV's) that they
> couldn't get along.



Which correspondent, and on what matter? Was Edward IV already sick and
expected to die at that point? Would this be a "use your influence with the King"
kind of matter, or were the Queen and Dorset already supplanting Edward's
authority? Thanks in advance for the info, Tim. What are some good resouces on
the topic of Elizabeth Wydville's relationship to Hastings prior to marrying
Edward?

Loyaulte me lie, Pam

>
>
> Tim--
> Thank you for this info, which I confess is new to me. Elizabeth Wydville
> Grey made a marriage contract with Hastings, which was later trashed
because she
> married Edward IV? Does this document still exist, or did you mean
"trashed"
> literally? What terrible terms did Hastings offer in the "prenup?" If
> Hastings had tried to take advantage of Elizabeth Wydville's plight, it
seems it
> would sour her attitude towards him for life.
>
Not necessarily she needed his help and he gave it to his advantage which
was the nature of such contracts at the period. Though she may have
resented it at the time - it does survive and is quoted by Lander, Baldwin
and McGibbon in their works - Effectively Elizabeth and Hastings would share
the proceeds from any lands gained for Thomas whilst he was under 12, and
that Thomas or his brother Richard should he die would marry Hastings as yet
unborn daughter or failing this a daughter of his brother Ralph or Anne his
sister. Hastings would pay 500 marks for the marriage but if Thomas and
Richard died or after five or six years there was no girl for them to marry
Elizabeth would pay him 250 marks. It was signed by both of them on 13th
April 1464.

The contract over Cecily Bonville was a different matter all together
Elizabeth paid £2,500 for the marriage to Thomas (again if he died Cecily
was to marry Richard Grey) - Hicks has claimed though that Edward IV
credited the 2,500 against Hastings debts to the crown. Elizabeth was to
recoup her money by receiving her daughter in law's income until the girl
reached the age of 16.


She was indeed - Elizabeth Ferrers was the only child of her first
marriage.>
> Which correspondent, and on what matter? Was Edward IV already sick and
> expected to die at that point? Would this be a "use your influence with
the King"
> kind of matter, or were the Queen and Dorset already supplanting Edward's
> authority? Thanks in advance for the info, Tim. What are some good
resouces on
> the topic of Elizabeth Wydville's relationship to Hastings prior to
marrying
> Edward?

Number of records - however in 1479 - the London Mercers and Merchant
Adventurers upset Edward by being late payers of their subsidy to the crown
and he demanded a financial "apology" <g>. They lobbied half the court
including Dorset, the Queen, The earl of Essex, Lord Hastings. Hastings
response was that he promised to be their "good and special lord" but
advises them to apply their labour "unto the Queen's Grace and to the Lord
Marquis". It was through the Queen "that we trust in God to have help and
comfort". In the end Edward for go part of the payment at "the insistance
of the Queen's good grace". (sources to be found in the Acts of the Court
of the Mercer's Company - the above example is detailed in Ross' Edward IV).

However the public feuding between Rivers and Hastings stems from River's
loss of Calais to Hastings in 1471/2. When Edward replaced his Rivers
spread rumours that Hastings would hand Calais to Louis XI...their rows
continued throughout the decade and eventually Rivers and Dorset took him to
court for spreading damaging gossip. However Baldwin points out that both
Dorset and Hastings worked together over the settlement of a family dispute
with Lord Cobham, his mother and her second husband, Hastings nominated both
Grey brothers for the Order of the Garter and his sister Elizabeth Donne and
Anne the wife of his brother Ralph both had places amongst the Queen's
ladies. They may have quarrelled over their place in the King's affections
but they could rub along okay if they had to.