Invisible sscoliosis?

This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:

"Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated – which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king

Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.

Carol

It didn't say anything about the condition starting at ten, it seemed to assume it was from birth. Richard liveth yet...

I was a little surprised that nobody suggested that some of the wounds might have been from a previous battle, Barnet being the most likely.

Presumably old wounds would have shown signs of healing, so perhaps this ws just not raised.


________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013, 0:40
Subject: Invisible sscoliosis?


 
This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:

"Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated  which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king

Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.

Carol

I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.

--- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
>
> This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
>
> "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated – which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
>
> Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
>
> Carol
>

Dr. Appleby addressed this point in her discussion of the forensic examination of the remains. As you surmise, it was specifically because none of the injuries showed the slightest sign of healing that they identified them as perimortem or postmortem.

--- In , david rayner wrote:
>
> It didn't say anything about the condition starting at ten, it seemed to assume it was from birth. Richard liveth yet...
>
> I was a little surprised that nobody suggested that some of the wounds might have been from a previous battle, Barnet being the most likely.
>
> Presumably old wounds would have shown signs of healing, so perhaps this ws just not raised.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013, 0:40
> Subject: Invisible sscoliosis?
>
>
>  
> This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
>
> "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated â€" which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
>
> Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi, Mcjohn, aka "Media Darling" (smiles)
I always thought Richard and Anne were stripped to the waist but I got The Coronation of RIII and it indicates they were not.
Hasn't it been an amazing day??!!
Loyaulte me lie,
Jo

-----Original Message-----

From: mcjohn_wt_net
Sent: 5 Feb 2013 01:44:24 GMT
To:
Subject: Re: Invisible sscoliosis?

I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.

--- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
>
> This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
>
> "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated  which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
>
> Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
>
> Carol
>

[With resignation.] Pop goes another entertaining medieval fantasy.

--- In , Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> Hi, Mcjohn, aka "Media Darling" (smiles)
> I always thought Richard and Anne were stripped to the waist but I got The Coronation of RIII and it indicates they were not.
> Hasn't it been an amazing day??!!
> Loyaulte me lie,
> Jo
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: mcjohn_wt_net
> Sent: 5 Feb 2013 01:44:24 GMT
> To:
> Subject: Re: Invisible sscoliosis?
>
> I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
> >
> > This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
> >
> > "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated â€" which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
> >
> > Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Amazing, awesome, mind boggling!

On Feb 4, 2013, at 7:51 PM, "Johanne Tournier" <jltournier60@...<mailto:jltournier60@...>> wrote:



Hi, Mcjohn, aka "Media Darling" (smiles)
I always thought Richard and Anne were stripped to the waist but I got The Coronation of RIII and it indicates they were not.
Hasn't it been an amazing day??!!
Loyaulte me lie,
Jo

-----Original Message-----

From: mcjohn_wt_net
Sent: 5 Feb 2013 01:44:24 GMT
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible sscoliosis?

I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "justcarol67" wrote:
>
> This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
>
> "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated ý which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
>
> Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
>
> Carol
>

Yes..it said that he was not born with the condition and it would have begun when he was about 10...
On 5 Feb 2013, at 01:02, david rayner wrote:

> It didn't say anything about the condition starting at ten, it seemed to assume it was from birth. Richard liveth yet...
>
> I was a little surprised that nobody suggested that some of the wounds might have been from a previous battle, Barnet being the most likely.
>
> Presumably old wounds would have shown signs of healing, so perhaps this ws just not raised.
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013, 0:40
> Subject: Invisible sscoliosis?
>
>
>
> This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
>
> "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated ý which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
>
> Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>

Exactly. Many with scoliosis after a rigorous training regime, like Michael Phelps and Mo Farrah, show little except perhaps when tired.
Richard was wounded in the arm at Barnet. Not in the buttocks! :-)
Paul

Richard Liveth Yet!




On 5 Feb 2013, at 01:44, mcjohn_wt_net wrote:

> I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
>>
>> This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
>>
>> "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated  which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
>>
>> Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
>>
>> Carol
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Given his delicate, 'gracile' build is it possible that the scoliosis could have been started by fight-training and armour-wearing at the age of 9? I don't know if this is possible, it may be a coincidence that it began at 10+?

Most causes of scoliosis even today are a bit of a mystery.
There is a hereditary component to it, as it does run in
families, though it can skip generations or have been
mild enough not to have been noticed before the push
about that in the 1960s.  It is also a common sequel to
other medical issues such as cerebral palsy or muscular
dystrophy.  Yes, it can be acquired through injury, but
that is basically breaking of the back, which is pretty
severe.  In short, for most of us it just happens. 

I do wish they'd get a forensic orthopedist to discuss Richard's
spine.  Kyphosis, lordosis, and scoliosis are three separate
things and currently they seem to be using kyphosis and
lordosis interchangeably.  Makes me quite cross as I want
to know the details here.  There's a wonderful forensic
anthropologist in Florida, Dr William Maples, who could
answer all of this for us in about 30 minutes.  Perhaps they
will let us know in the upcoming year of study.

~Penny


 
Live simply.  Love generously.  Care deeply.  Speak kindly.
        And never regret anything that made you smile.

Hi,
These things were certainly dealt with. At the press conference they said he would not have been born with scoliosis, it would have started to develop when he was about ten.
I'm sure it was on the documentary, or on both, that they made clear that these wounds were all inflicted around the time of death - whether shortly before or shortly after not possible to say.
Marie

--- In , david rayner wrote:
>
> It didn't say anything about the condition starting at ten, it seemed to assume it was from birth. Richard liveth yet...
>
> I was a little surprised that nobody suggested that some of the wounds might have been from a previous battle, Barnet being the most likely.
>
> Presumably old wounds would have shown signs of healing, so perhaps this ws just not raised.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013, 0:40
> Subject: Invisible sscoliosis?
>
>
>  
> This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
>
> "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated â€" which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
>
> Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
>
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>

No. This is another myth.
Marie

--- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
>
> I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.
>
> --- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
> >
> > This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
> >
> > "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated – which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
> >
> > Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
> >
> > Carol
> >
>

[Sigh.] It appears I am never to see a naked royal person. Even with this-here time machine in the carport. Pity.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> No. This is another myth.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
> >
> > I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.
> >
> > --- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
> > >
> > > This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
> > >
> > > "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and mutilated – which would have revealed for the first time to any but his closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
> > >
> > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
> > >
> > > Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
>

You need to go to Los Vegas!



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mcjohn_wt_net
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:03 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Invisible sscoliosis?





[Sigh.] It appears I am never to see a naked royal person. Even with
this-here time machine in the carport. Pity.

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> No. This is another myth.
> Marie
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
> >
> > I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "justcarol67" wrote:
> > >
> > > This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not
have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them
by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
> > >
> > > "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the
brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were
after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the
king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and
mutilated - which would have revealed for the first time to any but his
closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which
began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
> > >
> > >
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
> > >
> > > Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no
expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
>

ROFL, George!



Once again, you've hit the nail on the head!



Johanne



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of George
Butterfield
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 10:30 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Re: Invisible sscoliosis?





You need to go to Los Vegas!

From:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
mcjohn_wt_net
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:03 PM
To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: Invisible sscoliosis?

[Sigh.] It appears I am never to see a naked royal person. Even with
this-here time machine in the carport. Pity.

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> No. This is another myth.
> Marie
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
> >
> > I do wonder, though--he was stripped to the waist for his coronation.
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, "justcarol67" wrote:
> > >
> > > This article from the Guardian suggests that most people would not
have known about Richard's twisted back until the Tudor revealed it to them
by parading Richard naked through the streets after his death:
> > >
> > > "Another sword slash, which also went through the bone and into the
brain, would also have proved fatal. But many of the other injuries were
after death, suggesting a gruesome ritual on the battlefield and as the
king's body was brought back to Leicester, as he was stripped, mocked and
mutilated - which would have revealed for the first time to any but his
closest intimates the twisted back, a condition from an unknown cause, which
began to contort his body from the age of about 10."
> > >
> > >
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/04/richard-iii-dna-bones-king
> > >
> > > Is that what the documentary said? It fits with my view, but I'm no
expert on scoliosis or anatomy.
> > >
> > > Carol
> > >
> >
>