Leicester Sound Files related to R3

I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from Leicester University related to Richard.

If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file as well.

The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces included.

All sound files here:
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester

Musical page with performance list here:
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1

There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't found it yet. I got hung up on the music.

~Weds

Oh, I completely missed the music. I will go back and check that out. Thanks

On Feb 7, 2013, at 5:39 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...<mailto:wednesday.mac@...>> wrote:



I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from Leicester University related to Richard.

If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file as well.

The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces included.

All sound files here:
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester

Musical page with performance list here:
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1

There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't found it yet. I got hung up on the music.

~Weds

Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read? Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would probably get more if I was able to read along.

--- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from Leicester University related to Richard.
>
> If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file as well.
>
> The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces included.
>
> All sound files here:
> https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
>
> Musical page with performance list here:
> https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
>
> There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
>
> ~Weds
>

"goldielover56" wrote:
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read? Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would probably get more if I was able to read along.

Carol responds:

Both letters can be found in Wikiquotes:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England

Unfortunately, that source doesn't distinguish between the portions written by Richard's secretary, John Kendall (or one of his scribes) and Richard's own postscripts. It would be better, if possible, to use Wiki's source, the excellent if slightly outdated "Richard the Third" by Paul Murray Kendall. (I say outdated only because new source materials have come to light since he wrote. It's still by far the best of the pro-Richard biographies, especially if it's supplemented with other recent works such as Annette Carson's "Maligned King."

Anyway, Kendall's book is available through Google Books, but whether those specific pages are accessible, I don't know.

Carol

A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
original ME and read it along with the recording.

Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
me for.



We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
this bearer Gloucester shall show you.


Karen

From: goldielover56 <fiona_w@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
R3






Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
probably get more if I was able to read along.

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
Leicester University related to Richard.
>
> If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
as well.
>
> The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
included.
>
> All sound files here:
> https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
>
> Musical page with performance list here:
> https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
>
> There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
(that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
>
> ~Weds
>

Good lord! How circuitous!
It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading it.
Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...> wrote:

> A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> original ME and read it along with the recording.
>
> Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> me for.
>
> We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
>
> Karen
>
> From: goldielover56 fiona_w@...>
> Reply-To: >
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> To: >
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> R3
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> probably get more if I was able to read along.
>
> --- In
> , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
> and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
> Leicester University related to Richard.
> >
> > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
> the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
> as well.
> >
> > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> included.
> >
> > All sound files here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> >
> > Musical page with performance list here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> >
> > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
> (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
>
>
>
>

Ishita

This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
(particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
those found in northern English dialects.

I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat&' should read
'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
tripping me up.

Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
God'.

Karen

From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
To: ""
<>
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
to R3






Good lord! How circuitous!
It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
it.
Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...
<mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com> > wrote:

> A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> original ME and read it along with the recording.
>
> Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> me for.
>
> We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
>
> Karen
>
> From: goldielover56 fiona_w@... <mailto:fiona_w%40hotmail.com> >
> Reply-To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> R3
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> probably get more if I was able to read along.
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
accent
> and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
from
> Leicester University related to Richard.
> >
> > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
on
> the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
file
> as well.
> >
> > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> included.
> >
> > All sound files here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> >
> > Musical page with performance list here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> >
> > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
letters
> (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
>
>
>
>

Then I won't understand a thing if I visit north of England! I understood about 1 in 10! Specially the first letter......!

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:29 AM, Karen Clark <Ragged_staff@...> wrote:

> Ishita
>
> This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> those found in northern English dialects.
>
> I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat&' should read
> 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> tripping me up.
>
> Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> God'.
>
> Karen
>
> From: Ishita Bandyo bandyoi@...>
> Reply-To: >
> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> To: ""
> >
> Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> to R3
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...
> > wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@... >
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To:
> >
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In
>
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

What type of typo is it when you type 'type' instead of 'typo'?

Karen

From: Karen Clark <ragged_staff@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:29:23 +1100
To: <>
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
to R3






Ishita

This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
(particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
those found in northern English dialects.

I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat&' should read
'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
tripping me up.

Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
God'.

Karen

From: Ishita Bandyo bandyoi@... <mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com> >
Reply-To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
To: "
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> "

<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
to R3

Good lord! How circuitous!
It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
it.
Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...
<mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
> wrote:

> A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> original ME and read it along with the recording.
>
> Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> me for.
>
> We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
>
> Karen
>
> From: goldielover56 fiona_w@... <mailto:fiona_w%40hotmail.com> >
> Reply-To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> R3
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> probably get more if I was able to read along.
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
accent
> and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
from
> Leicester University related to Richard.
> >
> > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
on
> the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
file
> as well.
> >
> > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> included.
> >
> > All sound files here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> >
> > Musical page with performance list here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> >
> > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
letters
> (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
>
>
>
>

Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!

--- In , Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Ishita
>
> This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> those found in northern English dialects.
>
> I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> tripping me up.
>
> Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> God'.
>
> Karen
>
> From: Ishita Bandyo
> Reply-To:
> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> To: ""
>
> Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> to R3
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...
> > wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@... >
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To:
> >
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In
>
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
needing too much help.

Karen

From: "favefauve@..." <favefauve@...>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
R3






Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Ishita
>
> This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> those found in northern English dialects.
>
> I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> tripping me up.
>
> Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> God'.
>
> Karen
>
> From: Ishita Bandyo
> Reply-To:
> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> To: "
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> "
>
> Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> to R3
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...
> > wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@... >
> > Reply-To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > >
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
--- In , Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> needing too much help.
>
> Karen
>
> From: "favefauve@..."
> Reply-To:
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> R3
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
>
> --- In
> , Karen Clark wrote:
> >
> > Ishita
> >
> > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > those found in northern English dialects.
> >
> > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > tripping me up.
> >
> > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > God'.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > To: "
> "
> >
> > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > to R3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > it.
> > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > >
> > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > me for.
> > >
> > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > Reply-To:
>
> > >
> > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > To:
>
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > R3
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > >
> > > --- In
>
> >
> > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > accent
> > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > from
> > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > >
> > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > on
> > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > file
> > > as well.
> > > >
> > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > included.
> > > >
> > > > All sound files here:
> > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > >
> > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > >
> https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > >
> > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > letters
> > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > >
> > > > ~Weds
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Gosh, good thing you are not being graded for all your efforts. Thank you for posting. I would imagine those with an education tried to be the most proper in their written texts. That is a wild leaping guess. But, one more time I am amazed at all we have seen, heard and read in the past few days.
Ishita, stay warm, and to everyone else, have a wonderful weekend, and HAPPY FRIDAY!

On Feb 7, 2013, at 11:29 PM, "Karen Clark" <Ragged_staff@...<mailto:Ragged_staff@...>> wrote:



Ishita

This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
(particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
those found in northern English dialects.

I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seatý' should read
'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
tripping me up.

Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
God'.

Karen

From: Ishita Bandyo bandyoi@...<mailto:bandyoi%40yahoo.com>>
Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>"
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
to R3

Good lord! How circuitous!
It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
it.
Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...<mailto:Ragged_staff%40bigpond.com>
> wrote:

> A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> original ME and read it along with the recording.
>
> Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> me for.
>
> We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with Godýs
> grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
>
> Karen
>
> From: goldielover56 fiona_w@...<mailto:fiona_w%40hotmail.com> >
> Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> R3
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> probably get more if I was able to read along.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
accent
> and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
from
> Leicester University related to Richard.
> >
> > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
on
> the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
file
> as well.
> >
> > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> included.
> >
> > All sound files here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> >
> > Musical page with performance list here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> >
> > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
letters
> (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
>
>
>
>

He was a little distracted on the second one. But yeah, the written language follows, as always, the spoken variety, and the complexity of Middle English has been well established. For example, the prologue to Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" contains this line:

Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth

It's pronounced, as far as anyone can tell, something like this:

Whann Zef-FEAR-us ache with his SWAY-tuh BREEEETH

And what it means is:

When the wind's blowing

Believe it or not, Middle English was considerably simplified over its ancient forebears, in that it had largely given up noun genders (the [masculine] table, the [feminine] barn, etc.) by Chaucer's time, about a century before Richard III's reign.

Shakespeare isn't considered Middle English, but Modern English (although one of the earliest practitioners). Some of Shakespeare's imagery, like Hamlet's "an auspicious and a dropping eye," are tough to figure out. That one means "An eye turned upward to heaven while tears drop from it to the ground."

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@...>
> > Reply-To: >
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To: >
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

The kind where the universe points and snickers. Damn universe, that big bully.

--- In , Karen Clark wrote:
>
> What type of typo is it when you type 'type' instead of 'typo'?
>
> Karen
>
> From: Karen Clark
> Reply-To:
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:29:23 +1100
> To:
> Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> to R3
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ishita
>
> This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> those found in northern English dialects.
>
> I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> tripping me up.
>
> Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> God'.
>
> Karen
>
> From: Ishita Bandyo bandyoi@... >
> Reply-To:
> >
> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> To: "
> "
>
> >
> Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> to R3
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...
>
> > wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@... >
> > Reply-To:
>
> >
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To:
>
> >
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In
>
>
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

So where were you when I was struggling with "Beowulf"????? Just kidding....



On Feb 8, 2013, at 8:10 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:



He was a little distracted on the second one. But yeah, the written language follows, as always, the spoken variety, and the complexity of Middle English has been well established. For example, the prologue to Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" contains this line:

Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth

It's pronounced, as far as anyone can tell, something like this:

Whann Zef-FEAR-us ache with his SWAY-tuh BREEEETH

And what it means is:

When the wind's blowing

Believe it or not, Middle English was considerably simplified over its ancient forebears, in that it had largely given up noun genders (the [masculine] table, the [feminine] barn, etc.) by Chaucer's time, about a century before Richard III's reign.

Shakespeare isn't considered Middle English, but Modern English (although one of the earliest practitioners). Some of Shakespeare's imagery, like Hamlet's "an auspicious and a dropping eye," are tough to figure out. That one means "An eye turned upward to heaven while tears drop from it to the ground."

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with Godýs
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@...>
> > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Please, Pam, sit down. I have some rough news. Grendel... Grendel didn't make it.

--- In , Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> So where were you when I was struggling with "Beowulf"????? Just kidding....
>
>
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 8:10 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" > wrote:
>
>
>
> He was a little distracted on the second one. But yeah, the written language follows, as always, the spoken variety, and the complexity of Middle English has been well established. For example, the prologue to Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" contains this line:
>
> Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
>
> It's pronounced, as far as anyone can tell, something like this:
>
> Whann Zef-FEAR-us ache with his SWAY-tuh BREEEETH
>
> And what it means is:
>
> When the wind's blowing
>
> Believe it or not, Middle English was considerably simplified over its ancient forebears, in that it had largely given up noun genders (the [masculine] table, the [feminine] barn, etc.) by Chaucer's time, about a century before Richard III's reign.
>
> Shakespeare isn't considered Middle English, but Modern English (although one of the earliest practitioners). Some of Shakespeare's imagery, like Hamlet's "an auspicious and a dropping eye," are tough to figure out. That one means "An eye turned upward to heaven while tears drop from it to the ground."
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading it.
> > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark wrote:
> >
> > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > >
> > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > me for.
> > >
> > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@>
> > > Reply-To: >
> > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > To: >
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > R3
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > >
> > > --- In
> > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
> > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
> > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > >
> > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
> > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
> > > as well.
> > > >
> > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > included.
> > > >
> > > > All sound files here:
> > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > >
> > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > >
> > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
> > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > >
> > > > ~Weds
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Oh nooooooooooo!

On Feb 8, 2013, at 9:20 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:



Please, Pam, sit down. I have some rough news. Grendel... Grendel didn't make it.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> So where were you when I was struggling with "Beowulf"????? Just kidding....
>
>
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 8:10 AM, "mcjohn_wt_net" > wrote:
>
>
>
> He was a little distracted on the second one. But yeah, the written language follows, as always, the spoken variety, and the complexity of Middle English has been well established. For example, the prologue to Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" contains this line:
>
> Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
>
> It's pronounced, as far as anyone can tell, something like this:
>
> Whann Zef-FEAR-us ache with his SWAY-tuh BREEEETH
>
> And what it means is:
>
> When the wind's blowing
>
> Believe it or not, Middle English was considerably simplified over its ancient forebears, in that it had largely given up noun genders (the [masculine] table, the [feminine] barn, etc.) by Chaucer's time, about a century before Richard III's reign.
>
> Shakespeare isn't considered Middle English, but Modern English (although one of the earliest practitioners). Some of Shakespeare's imagery, like Hamlet's "an auspicious and a dropping eye," are tough to figure out. That one means "An eye turned upward to heaven while tears drop from it to the ground."
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading it.
> > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark wrote:
> >
> > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > >
> > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > me for.
> > >
> > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with Godýs
> > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@>
> > > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > R3
> > >
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
> > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
> > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > >
> > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
> > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
> > > as well.
> > > >
> > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > included.
> > > >
> > > > All sound files here:
> > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > >
> > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > >
> > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
> > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > >
> > > > ~Weds
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , Karen Clark wrote:
>
> A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> original ME and read it along with the recording.
>
> Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> me for.

I can't think of where to locate a photograph copy of the original, but I'm sure it sayss "that matter that you labour to me for."

There is a good readable copy of the letter to Chancellor Russell in Cunningham's "Richard III: A Royal Enigma", with a transcription on the page opposite.

Marie




>
>
>
> We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
>
>
> Karen
>
> From: goldielover56
> Reply-To:
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> R3
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> probably get more if I was able to read along.
>
> --- In
> , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
> and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
> Leicester University related to Richard.
> >
> > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
> the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
> as well.
> >
> > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> included.
> >
> > All sound files here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> >
> > Musical page with performance list here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> >
> > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
> (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, they did talk like that. We have a conversation on the topic on this forum a while back/ A lot of people imagined that late 15th century English was like early 17th century because both come under the "early modern" label (and even that it was therefore rather like hillbilly American), but in fact as you can hear the greater part of the vowel shifting was yet to occur.
Marie

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@...>
> > Reply-To: >
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To: >
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise) from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

There are some words that haven't shifted in some northern English dialects - like "reet" for right and "toon" for town, but in general the north did catch up.
Marie

--- In , Karen Clark wrote:
>
> Ishita
>
> This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> those found in northern English dialects.
>
> I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> tripping me up.
>
> Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> God'.
>
> Karen
>
> From: Ishita Bandyo
> Reply-To:
> Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> To: ""
>
> Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> to R3
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Good lord! How circuitous!
> It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> it.
> Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@...
> > wrote:
>
> > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> >
> > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > me for.
> >
> > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@... >
> > Reply-To:
> >
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > To:
> >
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> >
> > --- In
>
> > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > >
> > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> accent
> > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> from
> > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > >
> > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> on
> > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> file
> > as well.
> > >
> > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > included.
> > >
> > > All sound files here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > >
> > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > >
> > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> letters
> > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Marie

I' was sure I'd got bits wrong! That matter that you labour to me for."
sounds much more like it.

Karen

From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:22:00 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
R3








--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Karen Clark wrote:
>
> A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> original ME and read it along with the recording.
>
> Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> me for.

I can't think of where to locate a photograph copy of the original, but I'm
sure it sayss "that matter that you labour to me for."

There is a good readable copy of the letter to Chancellor Russell in
Cunningham's "Richard III: A Royal Enigma", with a transcription on the page
opposite.

Marie

>
>
>
> We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God¹s
> grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
>
>
> Karen
>
> From: goldielover56
> Reply-To:
> Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> R3
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> probably get more if I was able to read along.
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
accent
> and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
from
> Leicester University related to Richard.
> >
> > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
on
> the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
file
> as well.
> >
> > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> included.
> >
> > All sound files here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> >
> > Musical page with performance list here:
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> >
> > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
letters
> (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
Marie

--- In , "favefauve@..." wrote:
>
>
> Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> --- In , Karen Clark wrote:
> >
> > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > needing too much help.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: "favefauve@"
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> >
> > --- In
> > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > >
> > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > tripping me up.
> > >
> > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > God'.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > Reply-To:
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > To: "
> > "
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > to R3
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > it.
> > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > >
> > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > me for.
> > > >
> > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > Reply-To:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > To:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> >
> > >
> > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > accent
> > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > from
> > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > on
> > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > file
> > > > as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > included.
> > > > >
> > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > >
> > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > >
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > >
> > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > letters
> > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Weds
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Eh,
 
I'm from rural Warwickshire, have worked in Birmingham (so know fluent Black Country and Brummie), Nuneaton, which is different again, and Coventry, which is different again, live on the borders of Northants and Leics and Oxon and no-one pronounces ai like sigh - we pronounce it as in pain. And we are a million miles from Cockney (apart from in Milton Keynes!). I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.  Cheers H


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3

 

I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
Marie

--- In , "favefauve@..." wrote:
>
>
> Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> --- In , Karen Clark wrote:
> >
> > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > needing too much help.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: "favefauve@"
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> >
> > --- In
> > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > >
> > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > tripping me up.
> > >
> > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > God'.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > Reply-To:
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > To: "
> > "
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > to R3
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > it.
> > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > >
> > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > me for.
> > > >
> > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > Reply-To:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > To:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> >
> > >
> > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > accent
> > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > from
> > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > on
> > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > file
> > > > as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > included.
> > > > >
> > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > >
> > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > >
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > >
> > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > letters
> > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Weds
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
>
> He was a little distracted on the second one. But yeah, the written language follows, as always, the spoken variety, and the complexity of Middle English has been well established. For example, the prologue to Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" contains this line:
>
> Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
>
> It's pronounced, as far as anyone can tell, something like this:
>
> Whann Zef-FEAR-us ache with his SWAY-tuh BREEEETH
>
> And what it means is:
>
> When the wind's blowing

Carol responds:

But you've taken away all the poetry! "When the wind god also with his sweet breath" is closer though why he needed "eek" (also) in that line I can't recall without looking it up.

Carol

Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken with the local accent...

I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad Yorkshire accents...put me right off...

Eileen

--- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
>
. I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.  Cheers H
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
>
>  
>
> I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> Marie
>
> --- In , "favefauve@" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> > --- In , Karen Clark wrote:
> > >
> > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > needing too much help.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > Reply-To:
> > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > R3
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > >
> > > --- In
> > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Ishita
> > > >
> > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > >
> > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > > tripping me up.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > > God'.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > To: "
> > > "
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > > to R3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > > it.
> > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > > me for.
> > > > >
> > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > To:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > R3
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > > accent
> > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > > from
> > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > > on
> > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > > file
> > > > > as well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > > included.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > >
> > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > > letters
> > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc, until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the push.
Marie


--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken with the local accent...
>
> I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.  Cheers H
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> >
> >  
> >
> > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , "favefauve@" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> > > --- In , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > needing too much help.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > >
> > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > > > God'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > To: "
> > > > "
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > > > to R3
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > >
> > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > > > me for.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > To:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > > > accent
> > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > > > from
> > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > > > file
> > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > > > included.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > >
> > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > > > letters
> > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Grinning.] Guilty of removing the poetry, Your Honor! "Eek" ("even") fits the meter, but it's been 35 years since I had to memorize the Prologue and I'm damned if I remember what else it had to do with the line. There must be an explanation; Chaucer scholars have had over six centuries to some up with one.

--- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
> >
> > He was a little distracted on the second one. But yeah, the written language follows, as always, the spoken variety, and the complexity of Middle English has been well established. For example, the prologue to Chaucer's "Canterbury Tales" contains this line:
> >
> > Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
> >
> > It's pronounced, as far as anyone can tell, something like this:
> >
> > Whann Zef-FEAR-us ache with his SWAY-tuh BREEEETH
> >
> > And what it means is:
> >
> > When the wind's blowing
>
> Carol responds:
>
> But you've taken away all the poetry! "When the wind god also with his sweet breath" is closer though why he needed "eek" (also) in that line I can't recall without looking it up.
>
> Carol
>

I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.

I can't think of another society in which pronunciation is so killingly important in establishing social class. In the U.S., we made that distinction by skin color, which just goes to prove how appallingly lazy we can be: we wanted to be able to know whom to despise without having to get up from the easy chair.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc, until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the push.
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken with the local accent...
> >
> > I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > >
> > . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.  Cheers H
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > > Marie
> > >
> > > --- In , "favefauve@" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> > > > --- In , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > > needing too much help.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > R3
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
> > > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ishita
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > > > > God'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > > To: "
> > > > > "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > > > > to R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > > > > me for.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > > R3
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > > > > accent
> > > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > > > > file
> > > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > > > > included.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > > > > letters
> > > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Americans constantly judge each other by their accents. The Southern drawl is sometimes considered "stupid"; as is the New York/New Jersey "fuhgeddaboudit" accent. I remember being surprised at all the mockery of Sarah Palin's far northwest accent. Being from the northeast, I hadn't realized that that particular regional accent was going to send so many people into a frenzy, lol! When I was a kid, the toniest accents were generally considered mid-Atlantic or midwestern. Maire.

--- In , "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
>
> I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.
>
> I can't think of another society in which pronunciation is so killingly important in establishing social class. In the U.S., we made that distinction by skin color, which just goes to prove how appallingly lazy we can be: we wanted to be able to know whom to despise without having to get up from the easy chair.
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >
> > Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc, until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the push.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken with the local accent...
> > >
> > > I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.  Cheers H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >
> > > > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "favefauve@" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> > > > > --- In , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > > > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > > > needing too much help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > > > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > > > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> > > > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ishita
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > > > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > > > > > God'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > > > To: "
> > > > > > "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > > > > > to R3
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > > > > > me for.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > > > To:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > > > R3
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > > > > > accent
> > > > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > > > > > file
> > > > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > > > > > included.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > > > > > letters
> > > > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Well stated, and too true.

On Feb 8, 2013, at 2:21 PM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:



I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.

I can't think of another society in which pronunciation is so killingly important in establishing social class. In the U.S., we made that distinction by skin color, which just goes to prove how appallingly lazy we can be: we wanted to be able to know whom to despise without having to get up from the easy chair.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc, until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the push.
> Marie
>
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken with the local accent...
> >
> > I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones wrote:
> > >
> > . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretariesý with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.ý Cheers H
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> > >
> > > ý
> > >
> > > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > > Marie
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "favefauve@" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > > needing too much help.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > R3
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ishita
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seatýýýýýýýý' should read
> > > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > > > > God'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > > To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > > > > to R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > > > > me for.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with Godýýýýýýýýs
> > > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > > R3
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > > > > accent
> > > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > > > > file
> > > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > > > > included.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > > > > letters
> > > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

As a gal from the South and southwest, we just say "bless their hearts", they just talk funny.

On Feb 8, 2013, at 2:44 PM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...<mailto:mairemulholland@...>> wrote:



Americans constantly judge each other by their accents. The Southern drawl is sometimes considered "stupid"; as is the New York/New Jersey "fuhgeddaboudit" accent. I remember being surprised at all the mockery of Sarah Palin's far northwest accent. Being from the northeast, I hadn't realized that that particular regional accent was going to send so many people into a frenzy, lol! When I was a kid, the toniest accents were generally considered mid-Atlantic or midwestern. Maire.

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
>
> I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.
>
> I can't think of another society in which pronunciation is so killingly important in establishing social class. In the U.S., we made that distinction by skin color, which just goes to prove how appallingly lazy we can be: we wanted to be able to know whom to despise without having to get up from the easy chair.
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >
> > Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc, until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the push.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "EileenB" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken with the local accent...
> > >
> > > I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Hilary Jones wrote:
> > > >
> > > . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretariesý with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.ý Cheers H
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> > > >
> > > > ý
> > > >
> > > > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "favefauve@" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > > > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > > > needing too much help.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > > > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > > > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ishita
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seatýýýýýýýý' should read
> > > > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > > > > > God'.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > > > To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > > > > > to R3
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > > > > > me for.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with Godýýýýýýýýs
> > > > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Karen
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > > > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > > > R3
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > > > > > accent
> > > > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > > > > > file
> > > > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > > > > > included.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > > > > > letters
> > > > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi, Hilary 

I only heard the first tape, but I know for that the Prof. picked two excerpts (postscripts?) that were in Richard's own hand.



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Hilary Jones
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 12:46 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3





Eh,

I'm from rural Warwickshire, have worked in Birmingham (so know fluent Black Country and Brummie), Nuneaton, which is different again, and Coventry, which is different again, live on the borders of Northants and Leics and Oxon and no-one pronounces ai like sigh - we pronounce it as in pain. And we are a million miles from Cockney (apart from in Milton Keynes!). I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills. Cheers H


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected] <mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com> >
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3



I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
Marie

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "favefauve@..." wrote:
>
>
> Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Karen Clark wrote:
> >
> > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > needing too much help.
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > From: "favefauve@"
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > R3
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > >
> > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦' should read
> > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > tripping me up.
> > >
> > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > God'.
> > >
> > > Karen
> > >
> > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > Reply-To:
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > To: " <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > "
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > to R3
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > it.
> > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > >
> > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > me for.
> > > >
> > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with God©ös
> > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > > >
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > >
> > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > accent
> > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > from
> > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > on
> > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > file
> > > > as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > included.
> > > > >
> > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > >
> > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > >
> > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > >
> > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > letters
> > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Weds
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

And there's the Duke of Wellington's famous quote about being born in Dublin "just 'cos a man's born in a stable don't make him a horse."  Any English teacher nowadays would cringe at "don't" instead of "doesn't"
 
I'm sure Georgette Heyer had all her Regency bucks saying "ain't".   


________________________________
From: Pamela Bain <pbain@...>
To: "<>" <>
Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 20:50
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3

Well stated, and too true.

On Feb 8, 2013, at 2:21 PM, "mcjohn_wt_net" <mcjohn@...<mailto:mcjohn@...>> wrote:



I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.

>

Carol earlier:
>
> But you've taken away all the poetry! "When the wind god also with his sweet breath" is closer though why he needed "eek" (also) in that line I can't recall without looking it up.
>
Carol again:

I forgot to mention that an educated medieval reader would know that Zephirus was the god of the west wind and that a zephyr was a gentle breeze. Oh, the things we've lost or forgotten by rejecting the concept a classical education as irrelevant or obsolete!

Carol

Yep - but pinning down so-called accents is nigh on impossible.  What we do know is that at this time the people of London had a job to  understand the people of Kent, who apparently had a very difficult accent.
 
Personally I would love it if Richard spoke like a Brummie and talked about Bermingham - which was only a hamlet then.  That's another difficulty, some of the places we talk about now just weren't there.  It wasn't really until the mass migrations of the late eighteenth century and its allied population explosion that you get identifiable clumps of people who are recognisable elsewhere by their accent  i.e. when they move to the nearest towns.
With the greatest respect I still think you're onto a loser. And I still think Richard's major influencers would have been his tutors, his family and even things like his early exile in Utretcht  which would have isolated him from the common herd. Mortimer (who I do respect) says that it took until the beginning of the fifteenth century to wrest the royal family away from French - I doubt whether they would have lept direct to a Yorkshire or Midlands dialect. Let's hope it wasn't Cockney (sorry to all Londoners but I can't get my head round Richard sounding like an Essex guy )   H


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 18:53
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3

 

Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc, until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the push.
Marie

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken with the local accent...
>
> I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.  Cheers H
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To:
> > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> >
> >  
> >
> > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , "favefauve@" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather would have had any trouble with it
> > > --- In , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax, but
> > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > needing too much help.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected. Good
> > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to understand if
> > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very like
> > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > >
> > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one after I
> > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seatáæ' should read
> > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English vowel
> > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved by
> > > > > God'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > To: "
> > > > "
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
> > > > > to R3
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was reading
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > >
> > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known, though I
> > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see it in the
> > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need as you
> > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are liable to
> > > > > > me for.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may not we
> > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie serious]
> > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we trust you
> > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it praying
> > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and truly
> > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause to be be
> > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon with GodéҶs
> > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and subdue his
> > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed for as
> > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > Reply-To:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > To:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
> > > > > > R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being read?
> > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but would
> > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's possible
> > > > > accent
> > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and otherwise)
> > > > > from
> > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If you click
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to the sound
> > > > > file
> > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they sponsored a few
> > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the pieces
> > > > > > included.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > >
> > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading Richard's
> > > > > letters
> > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I haven't
> > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

"mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
>
> I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.

Carol responds:

I've read (don't recall where) that what we now spell and pronounce "ain't" was originally "an't," a contraction for "am not" (I do recall that David Copperfield uses it as a child in the Dickens novel), but was frowned upon when it was used for the second or third person (which would amount to "you am not" or "he, she, or it am not"), in which case it was genuinely ungrammatical. The idea eventually extended to the word itself in any grammatical context. Whether the change in pronunciation and spelling, or the use of "ain't" (so spelled and pronounced) by people of the social class represented by Huckleberry Finn in Twain's novel had anything to do with it, I don't know.

It seems to me that it was one of those misunderstood "rules," like the one that prevents people from saying "you and me" in any context and results in "like you and I." The misuse of "myself" for "I" or "me" results from a similar view that certain words or phrases are "wrong" in all instances.

I would joke about "upperest," but since it's so easy to miss humor or irony in a post or e-mail message, I'll resist the temptation.

And totally OT for this conversation, I've mentally started referring to David Starkey as "Snarky."

Carol

Thanks for the clarification. As with so many other aspects of the life and career of Richard III, linguistics is a topic we could happily discuss till the kyne wend their way homewards.

(I was thinking "Starkers" myself.)

--- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
>
> "mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
> >
> > I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.
>
> Carol responds:
>
> I've read (don't recall where) that what we now spell and pronounce "ain't" was originally "an't," a contraction for "am not" (I do recall that David Copperfield uses it as a child in the Dickens novel), but was frowned upon when it was used for the second or third person (which would amount to "you am not" or "he, she, or it am not"), in which case it was genuinely ungrammatical. The idea eventually extended to the word itself in any grammatical context. Whether the change in pronunciation and spelling, or the use of "ain't" (so spelled and pronounced) by people of the social class represented by Huckleberry Finn in Twain's novel had anything to do with it, I don't know.
>
> It seems to me that it was one of those misunderstood "rules," like the one that prevents people from saying "you and me" in any context and results in "like you and I." The misuse of "myself" for "I" or "me" results from a similar view that certain words or phrases are "wrong" in all instances.
>
> I would joke about "upperest," but since it's so easy to miss humor or irony in a post or e-mail message, I'll resist the temptation.
>
> And totally OT for this conversation, I've mentally started referring to David Starkey as "Snarky."
>
> Carol
>

This is essentially correct, and not so much a belief with linguists as the
result of many many years of research. Children, essentially, speak like
those they most often associate with, ie other children. Sending them away
(early) to a school where everyone 'talks like us' breaks the link between
local environment and speech variety. It takes this kind of massive
intervention for parents to consciously influence their children's speech.

Karen

From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
Reply-To: <>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:53:14 -0000
To: <>
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
R3






Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very
exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with
the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have
adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th
century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most
painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very
normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The
suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and
middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just
above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc,
until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the
push.
Marie

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an
accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of
Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken
with the local accent...
>
> I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad
Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his
upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent
in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by
secretaries with the odd input from the sender - just like wills. Cheers H
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> >
> > Â
> >
> > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that
preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "favefauve@" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather
would have had any trouble with it
> > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax,
but
> > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > needing too much help.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected.
Good
> > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to
understand if
> > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > >
> > > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very
like
> > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > >
> > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one
after I
> > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seat¡¦'
should read
> > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English
vowel
> > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved
by
> > > > > God'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > To: "
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > "
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files
related
> > > > > to R3
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was
reading
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > >
> > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known,
though I
> > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see
it in the
> > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need
as you
> > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are
liable to
> > > > > > me for.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may
not we
> > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie
serious]
> > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we
trust you
> > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it
praying
> > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and
truly
> > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause
to be be
> > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon
with God©ös
> > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and
subdue his
> > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed
for as
> > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > Reply-To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files
related to
> > > > > > R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being
read?
> > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but
would
> > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's
possible
> > > > > accent
> > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and
otherwise)
> > > > > from
> > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If
you click
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to
the sound
> > > > > file
> > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they
sponsored a few
> > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the
pieces
> > > > > > included.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > >
> > > >
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading
Richard's
> > > > > letters
> > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I
haven't
> > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I thought Snarky was the much better sobriquet!

On Feb 8, 2013, at 6:33 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:



"mcjohn_wt_net" wrote:
>
> I recall reading many years ago that the expression "ain't" started out as the upperest of the upper crust, when it was adopted by successively lower social classes until the aristos gave up using it because their scullery-maids and dogsbodies did.

Carol responds:

I've read (don't recall where) that what we now spell and pronounce "ain't" was originally "an't," a contraction for "am not" (I do recall that David Copperfield uses it as a child in the Dickens novel), but was frowned upon when it was used for the second or third person (which would amount to "you am not" or "he, she, or it am not"), in which case it was genuinely ungrammatical. The idea eventually extended to the word itself in any grammatical context. Whether the change in pronunciation and spelling, or the use of "ain't" (so spelled and pronounced) by people of the social class represented by Huckleberry Finn in Twain's novel had anything to do with it, I don't know.

It seems to me that it was one of those misunderstood "rules," like the one that prevents people from saying "you and me" in any context and results in "like you and I." The misuse of "myself" for "I" or "me" results from a similar view that certain words or phrases are "wrong" in all instances.

I would joke about "upperest," but since it's so easy to miss humor or irony in a post or e-mail message, I'll resist the temptation.

And totally OT for this conversation, I've mentally started referring to David Starkey as "Snarky."

Carol

My daughter is a speech pathologist. When she is here, she speaks well. However, her first marriage to "Pond Scum" as we call him, was spent in East Texas. When she gets back to San Antonio after a visit, she has regressed to East Texas twang. She heras it, and auto-corrects. my hubby, can barely detect the differences, except grammatical. My point, one with a good ear can pick up sounds and start to speak the same, until transplanted where another accent is spoken, and that becomes dominant, or at least for the moment.

On Feb 8, 2013, at 8:01 PM, "Karen Clark" <Ragged_staff@...<mailto:Ragged_staff@...>> wrote:



This is essentially correct, and not so much a belief with linguists as the
result of many many years of research. Children, essentially, speak like
those they most often associate with, ie other children. Sending them away
(early) to a school where everyone 'talks like us' breaks the link between
local environment and speech variety. It takes this kind of massive
intervention for parents to consciously influence their children's speech.

Karen

From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]<mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>>
Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:53:14 -0000
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
R3

Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very
exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with
the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have
adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th
century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most
painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very
normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The
suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and
middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just
above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc,
until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the
push.
Marie

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an
accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of
Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken
with the local accent...
>
> I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad
Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his
upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent
in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by
secretariesý with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.ý Cheers H
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> >
> > ý
> >
> > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that
preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, "favefauve@" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather
would have had any trouble with it
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, Karen Clark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax,
but
> > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > needing too much help.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected.
Good
> > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to
understand if
> > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very
like
> > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > >
> > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one
after I
> > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seatýýýýýýýý'
should read
> > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English
vowel
> > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved
by
> > > > > God'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > "
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files
related
> > > > > to R3
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was
reading
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > >
> > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known,
though I
> > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see
it in the
> > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need
as you
> > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are
liable to
> > > > > > me for.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may
not we
> > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie
serious]
> > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we
trust you
> > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it
praying
> > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and
truly
> > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause
to be be
> > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon
with Godýýýýýýýýs
> > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and
subdue his
> > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed
for as
> > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files
related to
> > > > > > R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being
read?
> > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but
would
> > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's
possible
> > > > > accent
> > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and
otherwise)
> > > > > from
> > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If
you click
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to
the sound
> > > > > file
> > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they
sponsored a few
> > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the
pieces
> > > > > > included.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > >
> > > >
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading
Richard's
> > > > > letters
> > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I
haven't
> > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

When dad was born and raised in Liverpool with bot his parents from Ireland, he never sounded at all Irish or 'scouse'

IWhen our family moved the Bristol, only the two youngest (myself being the youngest) picked up the quite strong accent - none of the rest of the family did
(suspect that may be because they were old enough for it not to 'take' so easily

Thought I have not lived in Bristol for almost 30 years the accent remains though not so strong.

My UK relatives think I sound Austrlains, the Aussies don't though

Put me back into a room with my brother and his wife and it becomes distressingly broad again lol

My two daughters raised here have Australian accents, though I have that strong Bristolian accent and their mum
a Nottinghamshire accent

Unlike the nobility none of us were subject to speech lessons, maybe that makes a difference...


To: "<>" <>
Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3

My daughter is a speech pathologist. When she is here, she speaks well. However, her first marriage to "Pond Scum" as we call him, was spent in East Texas. When she gets back to San Antonio after a visit, she has regressed to East Texas twang. She heras it, and auto-corrects. my hubby, can barely detect the differences, except grammatical.  My point, one with a good ear can pick up sounds and start to speak the same, until transplanted where another accent is spoken, and that becomes dominant, or at least for the moment.

On Feb 8, 2013, at 8:01 PM, "Karen Clark" <Ragged_staff@...<mailto:Ragged_staff@...>> wrote:



This is essentially correct, and not so much a belief with linguists as the
result of many many years of research. Children, essentially, speak like
those they most often associate with, ie other children. Sending them away
(early) to a school where everyone 'talks like us' breaks the link between
local environment and speech variety. It takes this kind of massive
intervention for parents to consciously influence their children's speech.

Karen

From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]<mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>>
Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:53:14 -0000
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to
R3

Yes, but linguists belive the upper class accent as we think of it - a very
exaggerated form of the London lingua franca - developed much later, with
the public schools. Interestingly, it seems the royal family may have
adopted it rather late. I once heard a programme with recordings of 19th
century upper middles such as Florence Nightgale, who had the biggest, most
painful plum in her mouth imaginable, and then Edward VIII, who spoke very
normally and would not sound out of place in general society today. The
suggestion was that the upper class accent actually began with new money and
middle middles trying to sound like their "betters", then the people just
above them having to sound even posher to maintain the distinction, etc,
until it got completely exaggerated. The royals were the last to feel the
push.
Marie

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Hilary...I absolutely agree with you on this...The upper classes have an
accent all of their own...be they the Duchess of Devonshire to the Duke of
Norfolk. They did not mix that much with the hoi polloi who would have spoken
with the local accent...
>
> I once read a Sandra Worth novel where Anne and Richard broke into broad
Yorkshire accents...put me right off...
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, Hilary Jones wrote:
> >
> . I think this is a wild goose chase - Richard would have spoken like his
upper class relatives (with perhaps a touch of the North) who were also fluent
in French. A lot of these letters, as I know you know, were written by
secretaries‚ with the odd input from the sender - just like wills.‚ Cheers H
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Sent: Friday, 8 February 2013, 16:31
> > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related to R3
> >
> > ‚
> >
> > I guess West Midlands and Cockney are about the only two accents that
preserved the original pronunciation of "ai" (ie say sounding like modern sigh).
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, "favefauve@" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Not unlike rural West Midlands, 20th century. I don't think my grandfather
would have had any trouble with it
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
, Karen Clark wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Late Middle English is very like Early Modern English (Shakespeare). The
> > > > vowels are different, some words and even (still) little bits of syntax,
but
> > > > I reckon a time traveller in either direction would pick it up without
> > > > needing too much help.
> > > >
> > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > From: "favefauve@"
> > > > Reply-To:
> > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 07:54:27 -0000
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files related
to
> > > > R3
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Somewhere between Chaucer and Shakespeare, as might have been expected.
Good
> > > > to know that when my Tardis lands in the 1480s I'll be able to
understand if
> > > > not speak to people. As long as they speak slowly!
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > , Karen Clark wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > > This was before the Great Vowel Shift, when the vowels of English
> > > > > (particularly in southern England) changed. Richard's vowels are very
like
> > > > > those found in northern English dialects.
> > > > >
> > > > > I made an error, btw. (Probably more than one, but I caught this one
after I
> > > > > hit 'send'.) 'to send me the seal incontinent upon the seatƒdaƒdf'
should read
> > > > > 'upon the sight'. There's an example of a northern/Middle English
vowel
> > > > > tripping me up.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, and another one, this one a type. 'loved be God' should be 'loved
by
> > > > > God'.
> > > > >
> > > > > Karen
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Ishita Bandyo
> > > > > Reply-To:
> > > > > Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 00:15:51 -0500
> > > > > To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > > "
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: Re: Leicester Sound Files
related
> > > > > to R3
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good lord! How circuitous!
> > > > > It seemed like a completely different language when the linguist was
reading
> > > > > it.
> > > > > Did they talk like that back then or just wrote like that?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from my iPad
> > > > >
> > > > > On Feb 8, 2013, at 12:10 AM, Karen Clark Ragged_staff@
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A quick and dirty transcription. The second letter is well known,
though I
> > > > > > don't have a copy I'm sure someone else will! It'l be great to see
it in the
> > > > > > original ME and read it along with the recording.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sir, I pray you that you fail me not at this time in my great need
as you
> > > > > > will that I show you my good lordship in that matter that you are
liable to
> > > > > > me for.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We would most gladly you can yourself if that you may and if you may
not we
> > > > > > pray you not to fail but to accomplish in all diligence my sad [ie
serious]
> > > > > > commandment to send me seal incontinent upon the seat hereof as we
trust you
> > > > > > with such as you trust and the officers pertaining to attend with it
praying
> > > > > > you to ascertain us of your news have loved be God is all well and
truly
> > > > > > determined and for to resist the malice of him that had best cause
to be be
> > > > > > true the Duke of Buckingham the most untrue creature living upon
with Godƒdiƒ´vs
> > > > > > grace we shall not be long till that we will be in that parts and
subdue his
> > > > > > malice we assure you that was never false traitor better purveyed
for as
> > > > > > this bearer Gloucester shall show you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Karen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: goldielover56 fiona_w@ >
> > > > > > Reply-To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 04:30:17 -0000
> > > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Leicester Sound Files
related to
> > > > > > R3
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of the letter that is being
read?
> > > > > > Just listening to it, I was catching about one word in ten, but
would
> > > > > > probably get more if I was able to read along.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>

> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I followed a link at the bottom of the article with Richard's
possible
> > > > > accent
> > > > > > and found a page containing a slew of sound files (academic and
otherwise)
> > > > > from
> > > > > > Leicester University related to Richard.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you click on the red arrow, you get to listen to the file. If
you click
> > > > > on
> > > > > > the title, you go to the page with more details and can listen to
the sound
> > > > > file
> > > > > > as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The first file listed is the complete musical program they
sponsored a few
> > > > > > weeks ago. It's an hour long, with all the music, and a list of the
pieces
> > > > > > included.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All sound files here:
> > > > > > > https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Musical page with performance list here:
> > > > > > >
> > > >
https://soundcloud.com/university-of-leicester/the-search-for-king-richard-1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There's also supposed to be more files of the doctor reading
Richard's
> > > > > letters
> > > > > > (that's what the link said from the original accent article), but I
haven't
> > > > > > found it yet. I got hung up on the music.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Weds
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>











------------------------------------

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