A suggestion

I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.

STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Yes i am shouting by the way. 
 
You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month!  Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected? 
 
I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
 
Liz 


________________________________
From: Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
Subject: A suggestion

 
I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.

It was bad enough to wait so many months to find out whether it was Richard's remains...and now this! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHH! Maire.

--- In , liz williams wrote:
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Yes i am shouting by the way. 
>  
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month!  Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected? 
>  
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>  
> Liz 
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
>  
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

STEPHEN.......!!!Just a teeny clue maybe and then we promises to say nought no mores Eileen

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> It was bad enough to wait so many months to find out whether it was Richard's remains...and now this! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHH! Maire.
>
> --- In , liz williams wrote:
> >
> > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    Yes i am shouting by the way. 
> >  
> > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month!  Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected? 
> >  
> > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> >  
> > Liz 
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Lark
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > Subject: A suggestion
> >
> >  
> > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Marie
Part of me is also shouting, however in today's environment of wannabe archeologists with metal detectors who are not after history but "stuff" I think that you have to totally understand any reluctance to reveal the potential of any new location. North America has a sad history of people ravaging both Native American sites and battlegrounds with little or no respect.
Once a site has been plundered very little can be achieved in the way of substantive archeology, which as history lovers we must support 100%
We waited for some considerable time to see R3 again and the verification of the archeology, sit on your hands count 100 backwards and breath deeply.
George

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 10, 2013, at 12:58 PM, "mairemulholland" <mairemulholland@...> wrote:

> It was bad enough to wait so many months to find out whether it was Richard's remains...and now this! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHH! Maire.
>
> --- In , liz williams wrote:
> >
> > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> >
> > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> >
> > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Lark
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > Subject: A suggestion
> >
> >
> > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

All I can say is that this is an amazing time to be a Ricardian! Maire.

--- In , George Butterfield wrote:
>
> Marie
> Part of me is also shouting, however in today's environment of wannabe archeologists with metal detectors who are not after history but "stuff" I think that you have to totally understand any reluctance to reveal the potential of any new location. North America has a sad history of people ravaging both Native American sites and battlegrounds with little or no respect.
> Once a site has been plundered very little can be achieved in the way of substantive archeology, which as history lovers we must support 100%
> We waited for some considerable time to see R3 again and the verification of the archeology, sit on your hands count 100 backwards and breath deeply.
> George
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 10, 2013, at 12:58 PM, "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> > It was bad enough to wait so many months to find out whether it was Richard's remains...and now this! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHH! Maire.
> >
> > --- In , liz williams wrote:
> > >
> > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > >
> > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > >
> > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > >
> > > Liz
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Lark
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > Subject: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Confucious said..."Live in interesting times"....Eileen ;-)

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> All I can say is that this is an amazing time to be a Ricardian! Maire.
>
> --- In , George Butterfield wrote:
> >
> > Marie
> > Part of me is also shouting, however in today's environment of wannabe archeologists with metal detectors who are not after history but "stuff" I think that you have to totally understand any reluctance to reveal the potential of any new location. North America has a sad history of people ravaging both Native American sites and battlegrounds with little or no respect.
> > Once a site has been plundered very little can be achieved in the way of substantive archeology, which as history lovers we must support 100%
> > We waited for some considerable time to see R3 again and the verification of the archeology, sit on your hands count 100 backwards and breath deeply.
> > George
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 10, 2013, at 12:58 PM, "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > > It was bad enough to wait so many months to find out whether it was Richard's remains...and now this! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHH! Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , liz williams wrote:
> > > >
> > > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >
> > > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >
> > > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >
> > > > Liz
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Stephen Lark
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > Subject: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),

I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.

The clues:
1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
2) Edward's indifferent health.

In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.

The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.

----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion



STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.

You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?

I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.

Liz

________________________________
From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
Subject: A suggestion


I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.

Wow!...thank you Stephen...We will respect your wish to put this matter on hold for a little while...Eileen

--- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>
> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>
> The clues:
> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>
> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>
> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liz williams
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
>
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

You will share when you are published, I hope. I am so impressed by the depth, breadth and dedication to scholarship shown by so many. I feel very much out classed and untutored (no pun intended)!

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2013, at 12:40 PM, "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...<mailto:stephenmlark@...>> wrote:



Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),

I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.

The clues:
1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
2) Edward's indifferent health.

In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.

The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.

----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion

STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.

You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?

I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.

Liz

________________________________
From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...<mailto:stephenmlark%40talktalk.net>>
To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
Subject: A suggestion

I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.

I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.

--- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>
> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>
> The clues:
> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>
> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>
> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liz williams
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
>
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In the interim it might well be a good time to re\re-read Audrey Williamson book The Mystery of the Princes to re/familiiarise with the Gipping/Tyrrell story...hehehehe...I sound like a teacher don't I...Keep up at the back you lot...Eileen.:0)

--- In , Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> You will share when you are published, I hope. I am so impressed by the depth, breadth and dedication to scholarship shown by so many. I feel very much out classed and untutored (no pun intended)!
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 10, 2013, at 12:40 PM, "Stephen Lark" > wrote:
>
>
>
> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>
> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>
> The clues:
> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>
> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>
> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liz williams
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@... >
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes...it is very beautiful. I have read somewhere and probably in Williamson's book that Richard gave permission for the mother to stay at Gipping with her sons. It is a nice thought.....Eileen

--- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> >
> > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> >
> > The clues:
> > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> >
> > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> >
> > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: liz williams
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> >
> > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> >
> > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > Subject: A suggestion
> >
> >
> > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Well I'm in Colchester so if I had a car still I could whizz up there any time.  Unfortunately it has to wait until at least Eater.
 
Stephen, this is fascinating by the way and your theory makes perfect sense. 


________________________________
From: mairemulholland <mairemulholland@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 19:02
Subject: Re: A suggestion

 
I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>
> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>
> The clues:
> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>
> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>
> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liz williams
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
>
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Williamson also said that there was no record of Elizabeth ever being at Gipping while Edward was alive. Sounds good to me. Good luck Stephen and thank you for getting involved in the research to find new evidence.

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Yes...it is very beautiful. I have read somewhere and probably in Williamson's book that Richard gave permission for the mother to stay at Gipping with her sons. It is a nice thought.....Eileen
>
> --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> >
> > I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >
> > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > >
> > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > >
> > > The clues:
> > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > >
> > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > >
> > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: liz williams
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > >
> > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > >
> > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > >
> > > Liz
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > Subject: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Thankyou. It is worthwhile but best by car, really.

Just to clarify, this is NOT connected to my big current project (unless I mention it to boost the word count) NOR to the long-term project (Marguerite).

----- Original Message -----
From: liz williams
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion



Well I'm in Colchester so if I had a car still I could whizz up there any time. Unfortunately it has to wait until at least Eater.

Stephen, this is fascinating by the way and your theory makes perfect sense.

________________________________
From: mairemulholland mairemulholland@...>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 19:02
Subject: Re: A suggestion


I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>
> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>
> The clues:
> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>
> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>
> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liz williams
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
>
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ive read somewhere? that one of the inducements proffered to EW to get her out of Sanctuary was that she would be able to have the boys living with her somewhere....If this is the case...and something must have got her out of Sanctuary....then where? Does anyone know the whereabouts of EW aftering leaving sanctuary? Eileen

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Williamson also said that there was no record of Elizabeth ever being at Gipping while Edward was alive. Sounds good to me. Good luck Stephen and thank you for getting involved in the research to find new evidence.
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Yes...it is very beautiful. I have read somewhere and probably in Williamson's book that Richard gave permission for the mother to stay at Gipping with her sons. It is a nice thought.....Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > >
> > > I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >
> > > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >
> > > > The clues:
> > > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >
> > > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >
> > > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: liz williams
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >
> > > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >
> > > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >
> > > > Liz
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > Subject: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hi, Maire -



I've never been there, really know nothing about Gipping and little about
James Tyrrell (sp?), but your email made me do a quick google for Gipping
and I found this - wonderful and very atmospheric -



http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/gipping.htm



Loyaulte me lie,



Johanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Johanne L. Tournier



Email - jltournier60@...

or jltournier@...



"With God, all things are possible."

- Jesus of Nazareth

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:03 PM
To:
Subject: Re: A suggestion





I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of
those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these
wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris
Christie. Maire.

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>
> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have
simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be
Shrewsbury's burial place.
>
> The clues:
> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and
"Perkin".
> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>
> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping,
prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst
staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret
and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is
connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son,
whether he is or not.
> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign
"confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at
Gipping Chapel.
>
> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been
commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and
exhumation.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liz williams
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this
have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about
another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
> To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
>
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but
PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Johanne: it's quite stunning - thanks for the photos. When my husband and I are totally retired, we are going to do a Richard the Third tour. I just need to get my expert driver husband to drive on the opposite side of the road. Maire.
--- In , Johanne Tournier wrote:
>
> Hi, Maire -
>
>
>
> I've never been there, really know nothing about Gipping and little about
> James Tyrrell (sp?), but your email made me do a quick google for Gipping
> and I found this - wonderful and very atmospheric -
>
>
>
> http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/gipping.htm
>
>
>
> Loyaulte me lie,
>
>
>
> Johanne
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Johanne L. Tournier
>
>
>
> Email - jltournier60@...
>
> or jltournier@...
>
>
>
> "With God, all things are possible."
>
> - Jesus of Nazareth
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of mairemulholland
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 3:03 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
>
>
> I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of
> those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these
> wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris
> Christie. Maire.
>
> --- In
> , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> >
> > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have
> simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be
> Shrewsbury's burial place.
> >
> > The clues:
> > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and
> "Perkin".
> > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> >
> > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping,
> prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst
> staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret
> and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is
> connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son,
> whether he is or not.
> > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign
> "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at
> Gipping Chapel.
> >
> > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been
> commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and
> exhumation.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: liz williams
> > To:
>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> >
> > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this
> have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about
> another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> >
> > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > To:
>
> > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > Subject: A suggestion
> >
> >
> > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but
> PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Pouncing.] Aha! Edward the never-to-be-Fifth is in a Native American burial mound?

--- In , George Butterfield wrote:
>
> Marie
> Part of me is also shouting, however in today's environment of wannabe archeologists with metal detectors who are not after history but "stuff" I think that you have to totally understand any reluctance to reveal the potential of any new location. North America has a sad history of people ravaging both Native American sites and battlegrounds with little or no respect.
> Once a site has been plundered very little can be achieved in the way of substantive archeology, which as history lovers we must support 100%
> We waited for some considerable time to see R3 again and the verification of the archeology, sit on your hands count 100 backwards and breath deeply.
> George
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 10, 2013, at 12:58 PM, "mairemulholland" wrote:
>
> > It was bad enough to wait so many months to find out whether it was Richard's remains...and now this! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHH! Maire.
> >
> > --- In , liz williams wrote:
> > >
> > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > >
> > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > >
> > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > >
> > > Liz
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Lark
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > Subject: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

mairemulholland wrote:
//snip//
"Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie."

On purpose? Well, there went any sympathy...
Doug

Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
Marie


--- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>
> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>
> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>
> The clues:
> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>
> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>
> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: liz williams
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>
> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>
> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>
> Liz
>
> ________________________________
> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> Subject: A suggestion
>
>
> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

EW's whereabouts for the rest of Richard's reign are a mystery. We don't even know she left sanctuary at all, only that she agreed to let her daughters leave.
Marie

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Ive read somewhere? that one of the inducements proffered to EW to get her out of Sanctuary was that she would be able to have the boys living with her somewhere....If this is the case...and something must have got her out of Sanctuary....then where? Does anyone know the whereabouts of EW aftering leaving sanctuary? Eileen
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Williamson also said that there was no record of Elizabeth ever being at Gipping while Edward was alive. Sounds good to me. Good luck Stephen and thank you for getting involved in the research to find new evidence.
> >
> > --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes...it is very beautiful. I have read somewhere and probably in Williamson's book that Richard gave permission for the mother to stay at Gipping with her sons. It is a nice thought.....Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > >
> > > > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > >
> > > > > The clues:
> > > > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > >
> > > > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: liz williams
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Liz
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > > Subject: A suggestion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

There seems to be a connection between the Tyrells (Thomas and James), Catesby and the Hautes (you'll recall that R's bastard daughter is mooted to be the daughter of Katherine Haute, wife of James Haute a relative of the Woodvilles). This is complicated by Sir Richard Haute (not James's brother), who rebelled with Buckingham, also had a wife called Katherine and was witness to Tyrell's will. Both Tyrells and a 'my sister Catesby' are mentioned in their wills. The Hautes, of course, also had land in Suffolk and in Kent. I'm still poddling and can't get my head round it yet (sister Catesby can't be Margaret Zouche).

BTW did you also know that Catesby also worked for Clarence by 1478, as well as Hastings? Things get extremely complex. Still digging. H.



--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> EW's whereabouts for the rest of Richard's reign are a mystery. We don't even know she left sanctuary at all, only that she agreed to let her daughters leave.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Ive read somewhere? that one of the inducements proffered to EW to get her out of Sanctuary was that she would be able to have the boys living with her somewhere....If this is the case...and something must have got her out of Sanctuary....then where? Does anyone know the whereabouts of EW aftering leaving sanctuary? Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Williamson also said that there was no record of Elizabeth ever being at Gipping while Edward was alive. Sounds good to me. Good luck Stephen and thank you for getting involved in the research to find new evidence.
> > >
> > > --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes...it is very beautiful. I have read somewhere and probably in Williamson's book that Richard gave permission for the mother to stay at Gipping with her sons. It is a nice thought.....Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The clues:
> > > > > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: liz williams
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Liz
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > > > Subject: A suggestion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

We have only been reading the heavily spun version of his dealings with Dr. Argentine - describing depression and a fear of being killed.
Suppose that the consultations were about a physical disease and that there were contemporaneous written reports that disappeared into the Tydder Black Hole?

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
>
> Ah, but what evidence is there that Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >
> > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> >
> > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> >
> > The clues:
> > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> >
> > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> >
> > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: liz williams
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> >
> > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> >
> > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > Subject: A suggestion
> >
> >
> > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I recall reading the rumour that the ex-Princes lived at Gipping Hall "by permission of their mother". It would seem that a Richard-Woodville rapprochement was happening in 1485, at least according to Annette.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> EW's whereabouts for the rest of Richard's reign are a mystery. We don't even know she left sanctuary at all, only that she agreed to let her daughters leave.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Ive read somewhere? that one of the inducements proffered to EW to get her out of Sanctuary was that she would be able to have the boys living with her somewhere....If this is the case...and something must have got her out of Sanctuary....then where? Does anyone know the whereabouts of EW aftering leaving sanctuary? Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Williamson also said that there was no record of Elizabeth ever being at Gipping while Edward was alive. Sounds good to me. Good luck Stephen and thank you for getting involved in the research to find new evidence.
> > >
> > > --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yes...it is very beautiful. I have read somewhere and probably in Williamson's book that Richard gave permission for the mother to stay at Gipping with her sons. It is a nice thought.....Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The clues:
> > > > > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: liz williams
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Liz
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > > > Subject: A suggestion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
king, his wife and the country.
Paul

On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> Marie
>
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>>
>> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>>
>> The clues:
>> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
>> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>>
>> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
>> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>>
>> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: liz williams
>> To:
>> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>
>>
>>
>> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>>
>> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>>
>> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>>
>> Liz
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@...>
>> To:
>> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
>> Subject: A suggestion
>>
>>
>> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> king, his wife and the country.
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> >>
> >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> >>
> >> The clues:
> >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> >>
> >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> >>
> >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: liz williams
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> >>
> >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> >>
> >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> >>
> >> Liz
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> >> Subject: A suggestion
> >>
> >>
> >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

Paul wrote:

"There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from Dr
Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne had
had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus extra
physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the king,
his wife and the country."

ricard1an replied:

"Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had
connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible."

Doug here:

Regarding Edward (V), I agree that it's very unlikely that he had any major
health problems BEFORE he arrived in London, which is why there's no mention
of any such thing. However, he could still have contracted some minor
illness or suffered a cut not properly treated (for that period) while in
the Tower and from which he never completely recovered. Especially allied to
his depressed state (can't blame him there!) and that could very well have
been Richard's main reason for removing his nephews to "someplace in the
country" - their overall health.

As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?

Doug

Doug, I did reply off the top of my head. Jenny Powys Lybbe brought this to my attention in an article in the Ricardian and from memory it was nurse, however, the implication was that she was still in Richard's household when Edward of Middleham died.

--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" wrote:
>
> Paul wrote:
>
> "There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from Dr
> Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne had
> had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus extra
> physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the king,
> his wife and the country."
>
> ricard1an replied:
>
> "Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had
> connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible."
>
> Doug here:
>
> Regarding Edward (V), I agree that it's very unlikely that he had any major
> health problems BEFORE he arrived in London, which is why there's no mention
> of any such thing. However, he could still have contracted some minor
> illness or suffered a cut not properly treated (for that period) while in
> the Tower and from which he never completely recovered. Especially allied to
> his depressed state (can't blame him there!) and that could very well have
> been Richard's main reason for removing his nephews to "someplace in the
> country" - their overall health.
>
> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>
> Doug
>

Well, there may have been, but Edward V actually travelled between Ludlow and London a good deal more than is generally recognised. His last trip before his father's death had been around Christmas and the January parliament, I think. Richard and Buckingham felt able to come south with him fairly quickly after they took charge of him at Stony Stratford.
Of course Edward V could have been perfectly well but succumbed to a sudden illness or had an accident, or something. At any rate, no (Gordon Smith's theory notwithstanding) ever claimed to be Edward V.
Marie

--- In , "stephenmlark" wrote:
>
> We have only been reading the heavily spun version of his dealings with Dr. Argentine - describing depression and a fear of being killed.
> Suppose that the consultations were about a physical disease and that there were contemporaneous written reports that disappeared into the Tydder Black Hole?
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ah, but what evidence is there that Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > Marie
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >
> > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > >
> > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > >
> > > The clues:
> > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > >
> > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > >
> > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: liz williams
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > >
> > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > >
> > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > >
> > > Liz
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > Subject: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

It's a hugely interesting tradition, but was picked up very late (early 19th century, I think) so it needs to be treated with a lot of caution.
Marie

--- In , "stephenmlark" wrote:
>
> I recall reading the rumour that the ex-Princes lived at Gipping Hall "by permission of their mother". It would seem that a Richard-Woodville rapprochement was happening in 1485, at least according to Annette.
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >
> > EW's whereabouts for the rest of Richard's reign are a mystery. We don't even know she left sanctuary at all, only that she agreed to let her daughters leave.
> > Marie
> >
> > --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> > >
> > > Ive read somewhere? that one of the inducements proffered to EW to get her out of Sanctuary was that she would be able to have the boys living with her somewhere....If this is the case...and something must have got her out of Sanctuary....then where? Does anyone know the whereabouts of EW aftering leaving sanctuary? Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Williamson also said that there was no record of Elizabeth ever being at Gipping while Edward was alive. Sounds good to me. Good luck Stephen and thank you for getting involved in the research to find new evidence.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes...it is very beautiful. I have read somewhere and probably in Williamson's book that Richard gave permission for the mother to stay at Gipping with her sons. It is a nice thought.....Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "mairemulholland" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just found a most beautiful photo of Gipping Chapel. I'm so jealous of those of you who can simply get in a car or on a train and see all these wondrous sights. Me, I'm stuck in NJ watching a press conference with Chris Christie. Maire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The clues:
> > > > > > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > > > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > > > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: liz williams
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Liz
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > > > > Subject: A suggestion
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Anne & Peter Idley

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > king, his wife and the country.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > >>
> > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > >>
> > >> The clues:
> > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > >>
> > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > >>
> > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: liz williams
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > >>
> > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > >>
> > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > >>
> > >> Liz
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.

Eileen

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > king, his wife and the country.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > >>
> > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > >>
> > >> The clues:
> > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > >>
> > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > >>
> > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: liz williams
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > >>
> > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > >>
> > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > >>
> > >> Liz
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

--- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>
> Doug
>


Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
Marie

Not just anti Ricardians who like to think the worse then Eileen?
Paul

On 11/02/2013 17:20, EileenB wrote:
> Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>> Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
>>
>> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>>> There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
>>> Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
>>> had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
>>> extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
>>> Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
>>> an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
>>> king, his wife and the country.
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>>>> Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
>>>> Marie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
>>>>> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
>>>>>
>>>>> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
>>>>>
>>>>> The clues:
>>>>> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
>>>>> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
>>>>> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: liz williams
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Liz
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
>>>>> To:
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
>>>>> Subject: A suggestion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Paul..I have thought this was very very possible for a very very long time. Could there have been a better way to harm Richard at that time than get rid of his heir? We can hardly believe that the act of bumping of children would never be considered. They thought it perfectly believable that Richard could murder his nephews didnt they...and the way they treated young Warwick....how cruel was that? Eileen

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> Not just anti Ricardians who like to think the worse then Eileen?
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 17:20, EileenB wrote:
> > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >> Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >>
> >> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >>> There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> >>> Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> >>> had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> >>> extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> >>> Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> >>> an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> >>> king, his wife and the country.
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >>>> Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> >>>> Marie
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> >>>>> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The clues:
> >>>>> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> >>>>> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> >>>>> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: liz williams
> >>>>> To:
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Liz
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> >>>>> To:
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> >>>>> Subject: A suggestion
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Richard Liveth Yet!
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

How can the shock trigger the TB?




________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion


 
Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.

Eileen

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > king, his wife and the country.
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > >>
> > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > >>
> > >> The clues:
> > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > >>
> > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > >>
> > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: liz williams
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > >>
> > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > >>
> > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > >>
> > >> Liz
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > >> To:
> > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.   Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....

Ishita


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion


 


--- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>
> Doug
>

Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
Marie

I have read that shock can trigger off TB...As I believe cancer could be. I am not a doctor, obviously, but this is what I have read somewhere along the line. Eileen

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> How can the shock trigger the TB?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>  
> Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >>
> > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >>
> > > >> The clues:
> > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: liz williams
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

I have read that shock could have triggered the TB...I am not a doctor, obviously, and I cannot remember where I read it...but I believe it. It is now known that stress can be a killer in that it can make you very ill..so why not shock. Eileen

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> How can the shock trigger the TB?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>  
> Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >>
> > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >>
> > > >> The clues:
> > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: liz williams
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sorry..I typed that message twice as the first one didnt show up for ages..Eileen

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> I have read that shock could have triggered the TB...I am not a doctor, obviously, and I cannot remember where I read it...but I believe it. It is now known that stress can be a killer in that it can make you very ill..so why not shock. Eileen
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > How can the shock trigger the TB?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >  
> > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The clues:
> > > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: liz williams
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Liz
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Perhaps there were miscarriages or still births before Edward was born. Eileen
--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.   Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>
> Ishita
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>  
>
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >
> > Doug
> >
>
> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>

He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
prove difficult to him!
Paul

On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>
> Ishita
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>
>> Doug
>>
> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

I asked my wife( who is a Dr.) and the underlying problem is stress not shock the patient has to have a preexisting condition, shock and the associated stress can raise blood pressure which can cause numerous problems.
George

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 12:46 PM, "EileenB" <cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:

> I have read that shock can trigger off TB...As I believe cancer could be. I am not a doctor, obviously, but this is what I have read somewhere along the line. Eileen
>
> --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >
> > How can the shock trigger the TB?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The clues:
> > > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: liz williams
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Liz
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Brian W

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> prove difficult to him!
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> >
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >>
> >> Doug
> >>
> > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>

The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a problem....:0)

--- In , "Brian" wrote:
>
> Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
>
> Brian W
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > prove difficult to him!
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >>
> > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

Stress triggers diabetes if you are at risk.i have thyroid and it went through the roof when I was going through intense stress at one point. Maybe TB too....... I will go with the the Doc.

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:13 PM, George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...> wrote:

> I asked my wife( who is a Dr.) and the underlying problem is stress not shock the patient has to have a preexisting condition, shock and the associated stress can raise blood pressure which can cause numerous problems.
> George
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 12:46 PM, "EileenB" cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
>
> > I have read that shock can trigger off TB...As I believe cancer could be. I am not a doctor, obviously, but this is what I have read somewhere along the line. Eileen
> >
> > --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > >
> > > How can the shock trigger the TB?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: EileenB
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> > > >
> > > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > > > Marie
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The clues:
> > > > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >> From: liz williams
> > > > > >> To:
> > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Liz
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > > >> To:
> > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:

> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> prove difficult to him!
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> >
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >>
> >> Doug
> >>
> > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>

Lol. But didn't the church frown upon "any other way to skin the cat?"
Missionary position or nothing at all......
It just seems to be a likely situation from what we see....the Plantagenets were prolific breeders!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:14 PM, "Brian" <wainwright.brian@...> wrote:

> Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
>
> Brian W
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > prove difficult to him!
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >>
> > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>
>

Ah....I've traced it...Anne F Sutton's article The Death of Queen Anne Neville in Richard lll Crown and People..a selection of articles from the Ricardian..."Thirdly, a severe shock such as the death of her son, could have caused the onset of the illness in the Queen if she carried a latent infection with tuberculosis" Sutton lists in her notes and references J Crofton and A Douglas Respiratory Diseases pp 192-9 and Chambers Ecyclopaedia and notes "I am indebted to the advice of Dr P H Sutton FRCP". I dont make this stuff up as I go along you know..I have gained a lot of info over the years from reading as much as I can about Richard who are academically equipped to know what they are talking about. If someone like Anne F Sutton writes something I am inclined to think she probably knows what she is talking about.

Anyway...as Anne was dead 11 months after her small son it could well be that the loss of Edward certainly would not have been helpful for her health..
Eileen

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Stress triggers diabetes if you are at risk.i have thyroid and it went through the roof when I was going through intense stress at one point. Maybe TB too....... I will go with the the Doc.
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:13 PM, George Butterfield wrote:
>
> > I asked my wife( who is a Dr.) and the underlying problem is stress not shock the patient has to have a preexisting condition, shock and the associated stress can raise blood pressure which can cause numerous problems.
> > George
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 11, 2013, at 12:46 PM, "EileenB" cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I have read that shock can trigger off TB...As I believe cancer could be. I am not a doctor, obviously, but this is what I have read somewhere along the line. Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How can the shock trigger the TB?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > > > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> > > >
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > > > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > > > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > > > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > > > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > > > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > > > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > > > > Marie
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The clues:
> > > > > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >> From: liz williams
> > > > > > >> To:
> > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Liz
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > > > >> To:
> > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

My point was is it a possibility? Apparently it is not:)




________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


 
The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a problem....:0)

--- In , "Brian" wrote:
>
> Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
>
> Brian W
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > prove difficult to him!
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >>
> > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

I've heard that it can trigger pneumonia - my own mother was told that her pneumonia after her first baby died (during the birth) was caused by shock.  As for TB, not a clue but then I don't actually understand how pneumonia can be triggered by shock either.. 



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 17:54
Subject: Re: A suggestion

 
I have read that shock could have triggered the TB...I am not a doctor, obviously, and I cannot remember where I read it...but I believe it. It is now known that stress can be a killer in that it can make you very ill..so why not shock. Eileen

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> How can the shock trigger the TB?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB
> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>  
> Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >
> > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >>
> > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >>
> > > >> The clues:
> > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: liz williams
> > > >> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > >> To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

"I dont make this stuff up as I go along you know.."
Eileen, I did not mean that you were making it up! Not at all. I was just asking a question.



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion


 
Ah....I've traced it...Anne F Sutton's article The Death of Queen Anne Neville in Richard lll Crown and People..a selection of articles from the Ricardian..."Thirdly, a severe shock such as the death of her son, could have caused the onset of the illness in the Queen if she carried a latent infection with tuberculosis" Sutton lists in her notes and references J Crofton and A Douglas Respiratory Diseases pp 192-9 and Chambers Ecyclopaedia and notes "I am indebted to the advice of Dr P H Sutton FRCP". I dont make this stuff up as I go along you know..I have gained a lot of info over the years from reading as much as I can about Richard who are academically equipped to know what they are talking about. If someone like Anne F Sutton writes something I am inclined to think she probably knows what she is talking about.

Anyway...as Anne was dead 11 months after her small son it could well be that the loss of Edward certainly would not have been helpful for her health..
Eileen

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Stress triggers diabetes if you are at risk.i have thyroid and it went through the roof when I was going through intense stress at one point. Maybe TB too....... I will go with the the Doc.
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:13 PM, George Butterfield wrote:
>
> > I asked my wife( who is a Dr.) and the underlying problem is stress not shock the patient has to have a preexisting condition, shock and the associated stress can raise blood pressure which can cause numerous problems.
> > George
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Feb 11, 2013, at 12:46 PM, "EileenB" cherryripe.eileenb@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I have read that shock can trigger off TB...As I believe cancer could be. I am not a doctor, obviously, but this is what I have read somewhere along the line. Eileen
> > >
> > > --- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > >
> > > > How can the shock trigger the TB?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: EileenB
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > > > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> > > >
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > > > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > > > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > > > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > > > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > > > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > > > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > > > > Marie
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The clues:
> > > > > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >> From: liz williams
> > > > > > >> To:
> > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Liz
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > > > >> To:
> > > > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Only if they found out!

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:51 PM, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:

> Lol. But didn't the church frown upon "any other way to skin the cat?"
> Missionary position or nothing at all......
> It just seems to be a likely situation from what we see....the Plantagenets were prolific breeders!
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:14 PM, "Brian" wainwright.brian@...> wrote:
>
> > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> >
> > Brian W
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > prove difficult to him!
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > >
> > > > Ishita
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > >>
> > > >> Doug
> > > >>
> > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> Well, there may have been, but Edward V actually travelled between Ludlow and London a good deal more than is generally recognised. His last trip before his father's death had been around Christmas and the January parliament, I think. Richard and Buckingham felt able to come south with him fairly quickly after they took charge of him at Stony Stratford.
> Of course Edward V could have been perfectly well but succumbed to a sudden illness or had an accident, or something. At any rate, no (Gordon Smith's theory notwithstanding) ever claimed to be Edward V.
> Marie


I mean "no pretender"
Marie


>
> --- In , "stephenmlark" wrote:
> >
> > We have only been reading the heavily spun version of his dealings with Dr. Argentine - describing depression and a fear of being killed.
> > Suppose that the consultations were about a physical disease and that there were contemporaneous written reports that disappeared into the Tydder Black Hole?
> >
> > --- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Ah, but what evidence is there that Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >
> > > > I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >
> > > > The clues:
> > > > 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >
> > > > In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >
> > > > The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: liz williams
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >
> > > > You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >
> > > > I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >
> > > > Liz
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > Subject: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Am I in trouble for doubting Richard's prowess?! Lol.
The first part of my question was When did R and Anne get married? After they got the dispensation or before? If they married at '73, would that mean they waited for the land dispute to be resolved before they tied the knot? And where was Anne staying from '70-'73?
Ishita




________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


 
Only if they found out!

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:51 PM, Ishita Bandyo bandyoi@...> wrote:

> Lol. But didn't the church frown upon "any other way to skin the cat?"
> Missionary position or nothing at all......
> It just seems to be a likely situation from what we see....the Plantagenets were prolific breeders!
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:14 PM, "Brian" wainwright.brian@...> wrote:
>
> > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> >
> > Brian W
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > prove difficult to him!
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > >
> > > > Ishita
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > >>
> > > >> Doug
> > > >>
> > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.   Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....

Carol responds:

Since the doctors later ordered Richard to stay away from his wife's bed, I doubt that this was the case. Nor would Richard's supposedly intending to marry his niece Elizabeth have been such a scandal if the rumor mongers thought him incapable of having sexual relations with her.

This scoliosis thing seems to be getting more attention than it deserves< IMO. If he could fight in battle, it can't have been so debilitating that he couldn't make love with his wife. The lack of illegitimate children born after his marriage seems to reflect his belied in constancy to his wife (another manifestation of loyalty) and honoring his wedding vows. He had a reputation, noted by Mancini, for a blameless personal life.

Carol

Makes sense. Thanks!




________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


 
Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.   Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....

Carol responds:

Since the doctors later ordered Richard to stay away from his wife's bed, I doubt that this was the case. Nor would Richard's supposedly intending to marry his niece Elizabeth have been such a scandal if the rumor mongers thought him incapable of having sexual relations with her.

This scoliosis thing seems to be getting more attention than it deserves< IMO. If he could fight in battle, it can't have been so debilitating that he couldn't make love with his wife. The lack of illegitimate children born after his marriage seems to reflect his belied in constancy to his wife (another manifestation of loyalty) and honoring his wedding vows. He had a reputation, noted by Mancini, for a blameless personal life.

Carol

And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
Paul


On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
>> prove difficult to him!
>> Paul
>>
>> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>>>
>>> Ishita
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Richard Liveth Yet!

Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Stress triggers diabetes if you are at risk.i have thyroid and it went through the roof when I was going through intense stress at one point. Maybe TB too....... I will go with the the Doc.

Carol responds:

We don't know for certain that Anne's illness was tuberculosis. I don't suppose you have time to do a thorough search now, but we had a discussion of this matter a while back. Whatever it was, the doctors feared that Richard could catch it either by being too near his wife or through sexual relations with her.

But I suspect you're right that stress played a role in hastening her death.

Carol

What is the evidence that the Idleys were connected to Margaret Beaufort? I don't think I;ve heard this one before.
Marie

--- In , "EileenB" wrote:
>
> Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >>
> > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >>
> > > >> The clues:
> > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: liz williams
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>

I'll have to search that one out as well....I've a suspicion I read it in Williamson's book and/or one of the Bulletins...Honestly...sometimes I am just swamped by books...I need a filing system...or a little note book ..Ill get back with that when I find it...Eileen

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
>
> What is the evidence that the Idleys were connected to Margaret Beaufort? I don't think I;ve heard this one before.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The clues:
> > > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: liz williams
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Liz
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

I'm not convinced it was TB, but the bacillus can lie dormant for yearas. Stress is known to depress the immune system.
Marie

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> How can the shock trigger the TB?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>  
> Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >>
> > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >>
> > > >> The clues:
> > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: liz williams
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Paul my friend, what makes you think I want to believe anything or have any preconceived idea? I assure you I am not a Tudor spy.




________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


 
And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
Paul

On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
>> prove difficult to him!
>> Paul
>>
>> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>>>
>>> Ishita
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

It's not exactly clear when they married. It can't have been before about June 1472 because the dispensation wouldn't have reached England before then. Richard may already have been in the North when it arrived. The earliest reference we have to Anne as Duchess of Gloucester is in the first of the three rolls for the 1472-5 parliament, which covers the autumn of 1472 and spring of 1473.

We can't assume that Edward was the result of Anne's first pregnancy. She could have had miscarriages first, or even a stillbirth or a baby that died in infancy. The gap before the baby, though, makes the commonly held assumption, that she was very fertile until somethig happened when she had Edward - less likely to be true. She looks instead to have been of limited fertility like her mother.

As for Richard's back - if he could ride the distances he did and unhorse Sir John Cheyney, he could surely manage sex.

Marie



--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.   Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>
> Ishita
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>  
>
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >
> > Doug
> >
>
> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>

Marie, thanks.




________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


 
It's not exactly clear when they married. It can't have been before about June 1472 because the dispensation wouldn't have reached England before then. Richard may already have been in the North when it arrived. The earliest reference we have to Anne as Duchess of Gloucester is in the first of the three rolls for the 1472-5 parliament, which covers the autumn of 1472 and spring of 1473.

We can't assume that Edward was the result of Anne's first pregnancy. She could have had miscarriages first, or even a stillbirth or a baby that died in infancy. The gap before the baby, though, makes the commonly held assumption, that she was very fertile until somethig happened when she had Edward - less likely to be true. She looks instead to have been of limited fertility like her mother.

As for Richard's back - if he could ride the distances he did and unhorse Sir John Cheyney, he could surely manage sex.

Marie

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.   Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>
> Ishita
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>  
>
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >
> > Doug
> >
>
> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Carol responds:
>
> We don't know for certain that Anne's illness was tuberculosis. I don't suppose you have time to do a thorough search now, but we had a discussion of this matter a while back. Whatever it was, the doctors feared that Richard could catch it either by being too near his wife or through sexual relations with her.
>
> But I suspect you're right that stress played a role in hastening her death.
>
> Carol
>


Dr Marianne's interpretation of Richard's being told to avoid Anne's bed, which was for me novel and interesting, was that it was not something considered contagious - only epidemic illnesses were recognised as contagious - but had to do with Anne's female areas, and that she was regarded therefore as "unclean" to sleep with in a more general sense. Marianne suggested it may have been a pregnancy that went wrong.
Marie

No, you are not.
Neither Phelps nor Usain Bolt have a problem with their day job, either. Athletes and swimmers probably cannot take painkillers either.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ishita Bandyo
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)



Paul my friend, what makes you think I want to believe anything or have any preconceived idea? I assure you I am not a Tudor spy.

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)



And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
Paul

On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
>> prove difficult to him!
>> Paul
>>
>> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>>>
>>> Ishita
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful medieval Catholic.

~Weds


--- In , "Brian" wrote:
>
> Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
>
> Brian W
>
> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > prove difficult to him!
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >>
> > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
on the way

G

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:26 PM
To:
Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)





I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful
medieval Catholic.

~Weds

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Brian" wrote:
>
> Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
>
> Brian W
>
> --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> >
> > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > prove difficult to him!
> > Paul
> >
> > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were
married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that
be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as
often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for
their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe
R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is
due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted
something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > >
> > > Ishita
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > To:
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Douglas Eugene >
> > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd
have a
> > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in
his
> > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > >>
> > >> Doug
> > >>
> > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born
in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > Marie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Liveth Yet!
> >
>

I am not aware whether the medieval church pronounced on such matters. Does anyone know?
Marie

--- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful medieval Catholic.
>
> ~Weds
>
>
> --- In , "Brian" wrote:
> >
> > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> >
> > Brian W
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > prove difficult to him!
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > >
> > > > Ishita
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > >>
> > > >> Doug
> > > >>
> > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>

Marie wrote:
> Dr Marianne's interpretation of Richard's being told to avoid Anne's bed, which was for me novel and interesting, was that it was not something considered contagious - only epidemic illnesses were recognised as contagious - but had to do with Anne's female areas, and that she was regarded therefore as "unclean" to sleep with in a more general sense. Marianne suggested it may have been a pregnancy that went wrong.

Carol responds:

Yes, I remember our previous discussion. My point here was simply that being told to avoid her bed implied strongly that his physicians didn't think him incapable of having sexual relations. I also noted that it might not have been tuberculosis as is commonly assumed. The "unclean" idea is interesting but not proven or, IMO, provable at this point. All we know is that the physicians were afraid that whatever was wrong with her would either pass to him or harm him in some other way if he shared her bed--hardly advice they would give to a king so crippled by scoliosis that he could not have sexual relations with his wife. It occurs to me that they might have been as concerned for his ability to produce heirs as for his life, but surely his life would have been their primary concern.

Carol

Richard proved at least twice before he had one child with his wife that he was completely capable of fathering children.  He also fought plenty of places before Bosworth where he did win, so clearly neither personal intimacy nor the rigors of battle were problems for him; he had some way of compensating.  He was still young.
Sheffe





>________________________________
> From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
>To:
>Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 5:23 PM
>Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
> 
>Marie wrote:
>> Dr Marianne's interpretation of Richard's being told to avoid Anne's bed, which was for me novel and interesting, was that it was not something considered contagious - only epidemic illnesses were recognised as contagious - but had to do with Anne's female areas, and that she was regarded therefore as "unclean" to sleep with in a more general sense. Marianne suggested it may have been a pregnancy that went wrong.
>
>Carol responds:
>
>Yes, I remember our previous discussion. My point here was simply that being told to avoid her bed implied strongly that his physicians didn't think him incapable of having sexual relations. I also noted that it might not have been tuberculosis as is commonly assumed. The "unclean" idea is interesting but not proven or, IMO, provable at this point. All we know is that the physicians were afraid that whatever was wrong with her would either pass to him or harm him in some other way if he shared her bed--hardly advice they would give to a king so crippled by scoliosis that he could not have sexual relations with his wife. It occurs to me that they might have been as concerned for his ability to produce heirs as for his life, but surely his life would have been their primary concern.
>
>Carol
>
>
>
>
>

Yeah, I certainly don't think that Richard had any trouble begetting children or fighting in battle. If he was so crippled with scoliosis that he could not perform his "manly duties", why would he contract with Joana?

I really think - in this case - that Ann was the one with fertility problems. Maire.

--- In , Sheffe wrote:
>
> Richard proved at least twice before he had one child with his wife that he was completely capable of fathering children.  He also fought plenty of places before Bosworth where he did win, so clearly neither personal intimacy nor the rigors of battle were problems for him; he had some way of compensating.  He was still young.
> Sheffe
>
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________
> > From: justcarol67
> >To:
> >Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 5:23 PM
> >Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> > 
> >Marie wrote:
> >> Dr Marianne's interpretation of Richard's being told to avoid Anne's bed, which was for me novel and interesting, was that it was not something considered contagious - only epidemic illnesses were recognised as contagious - but had to do with Anne's female areas, and that she was regarded therefore as "unclean" to sleep with in a more general sense. Marianne suggested it may have been a pregnancy that went wrong.
> >
> >Carol responds:
> >
> >Yes, I remember our previous discussion. My point here was simply that being told to avoid her bed implied strongly that his physicians didn't think him incapable of having sexual relations. I also noted that it might not have been tuberculosis as is commonly assumed. The "unclean" idea is interesting but not proven or, IMO, provable at this point. All we know is that the physicians were afraid that whatever was wrong with her would either pass to him or harm him in some other way if he shared her bed--hardly advice they would give to a king so crippled by scoliosis that he could not have sexual relations with his wife. It occurs to me that they might have been as concerned for his ability to produce heirs as for his life, but surely his life would have been their primary concern.
> >
> >Carol
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Wednesday wrote:
>
> I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful medieval Catholic.

Carol responds:

The term "missionary position" was first used in 1948 and refers to the position that Christian missionaries of the nineteenth century ostensibly urged the native peoples to use. Those missionaries, the British ones, anyway, would most likely have been Anglican, not Roman Catholic. (It was the Puritans, not the Catholics, who thought that pleasure was sinful.)

Somehow, I can't imagine Edward IV restricting himself to any one position. (Imagine his poor confessor listening to Edward's lively tale. "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned." "Yes, yes, my son, but must you provide the details?")

There is to my knowledge no commandment among the hundreds (or is it thousands?) in the Old Testament recommending a particular position. Or if there is, the medieval Catholics paid as much attention to it as to the commands about not eating pork. Boar's head was a favorite dish at Christmastime.

Carol

Shock and depression can lower immune resistance, so it's less triggering her TB
and more blowing open the gateway that allows that to happen. It's comparable to
how AIDS isn't a cancer, but people with it often die of an otherwise rare type
of skin cancer- their bodies can't fight off something that they usually could.



________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: ""
<>
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 12:41:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion


How can the shock trigger the TB?

________________________________

Shock and depression can lower immune resistance, so it's less triggering her TB
and more blowing open the gateway that allows that to happen. It's comparable to
how AIDS isn't a cancer, but people with it often die of an otherwise rare type
of skin cancer- their bodies can't fight off something that they usually could.



________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: ""
<>
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 12:41:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion


How can the shock trigger the TB?

________________________________

Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?

http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx

Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position — what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s — which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."

~Weds

--- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
>
>
>
> They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> on the way
>
> G
>
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:26 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
>
>
>
> I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful
> medieval Catholic.
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In
> , "Brian" wrote:
> >
> > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> >
> > Brian W
> >
> > --- In
> , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > prove difficult to him!
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were
> married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that
> be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as
> often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for
> their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe
> R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is
> due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted
> something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > >
> > > > Ishita
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > To:
>
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd
> have a
> > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in
> his
> > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > >>
> > > >> Doug
> > > >>
> > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born
> in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Very interesting. How much notice do you think lay people took of this?
Marie

--- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?
>
> http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx
>
> Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position — what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s — which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> > Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> > on the way
> >
> > G
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:26 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful
> > medieval Catholic.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In
> > , "Brian" wrote:
> > >
> > > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> > >
> > > Brian W
> > >
> > > --- In
> > , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > > prove difficult to him!
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were
> > married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that
> > be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as
> > often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for
> > their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe
> > R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is
> > due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted
> > something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > > To:
> >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
> > , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd
> > have a
> > > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in
> > his
> > > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Doug
> > > > >>
> > > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born
> > in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

My comment on his back possibly making sex painful was referring to the haste
with which the betrothal to Joanna of Portugal was drawn up- he had a nominal
heir at that point and there's no record of him being in ill health at the time
that I know of, so it always struck me as odd that there wasn't slightly more
deliberation on that front. But if he was experiencing a lot of pain in his back
by his early thirties, it would make sense to get on that even quicker than
usual before it became impossible for him to endure altogether.




________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
prove difficult to him!
Paul

On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in
>1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to
>Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they
>would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having
>only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of
>mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the
>severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that
>effect a few days ago.....
>
> Ishita
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>
>> Doug
>>
> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the
>late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

George will know.

~Weds

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> Very interesting. How much notice do you think lay people took of this?
> Marie
>
> --- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?
> >
> > http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx
> >
> > Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position — what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s — which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> > > Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> > > on the way
> > >
> > > G

I take Pilates. I was telling my teacher about the Richard conundrum and the scoliosis. The man who began Pilates, Joseph Pilates, had back problems and went on to live a very vigorous and long life. One of the pieces we use is called a reformer, sounds Medieval doesn't it? Anyway, today we did a group of exercises that mimicked riding a horse. She hypothesized that Richard's wearing armor, and riding, probably strengthened rather that weakened him. This is JUST a hypothesis, but one I found very interesting.

On Feb 11, 2013, at 2:20 PM, "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...<mailto:justcarol67@...>> wrote:



Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.ý ý Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....

Carol responds:

Since the doctors later ordered Richard to stay away from his wife's bed, I doubt that this was the case. Nor would Richard's supposedly intending to marry his niece Elizabeth have been such a scandal if the rumor mongers thought him incapable of having sexual relations with her.

This scoliosis thing seems to be getting more attention than it deserves< IMO. If he could fight in battle, it can't have been so debilitating that he couldn't make love with his wife. The lack of illegitimate children born after his marriage seems to reflect his belied in constancy to his wife (another manifestation of loyalty) and honoring his wedding vows. He had a reputation, noted by Mancini, for a blameless personal life.

Carol

Remember, it's amazing how a guy can forget about a backache when sex rears its alluring head. I don't think Richard was any different from the ordinary man in this respect.

Poor man, I don't think he ever thought that the history books would write about his sex life...

--- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> My comment on his back possibly making sex painful was referring to the haste
> with which the betrothal to Joanna of Portugal was drawn up- he had a nominal
> heir at that point and there's no record of him being in ill health at the time
> that I know of, so it always struck me as odd that there wasn't slightly more
> deliberation on that front. But if he was experiencing a lot of pain in his back
> by his early thirties, it would make sense to get on that even quicker than
> usual before it became impossible for him to endure altogether.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale
> To:
> Cc: paul.bale@...
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:10:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> prove difficult to him!
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in
> >1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to
> >Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they
> >would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having
> >only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of
> >mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the
> >severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that
> >effect a few days ago.....
> >
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >>
> >> Doug
> >>
> > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the
> >late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>

Holy cow!! That's a truly fascinating article!
(I promise I am not giggling!)

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 5:32 PM, "wednesday_mc" <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:

> Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?
>
> http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx
>
> Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position  what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s  which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> > Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> > on the way
> >
> > G
> >
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:26 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful
> > medieval Catholic.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In
> > , "Brian" wrote:
> > >
> > > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> > >
> > > Brian W
> > >
> > > --- In
> > , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > > prove difficult to him!
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were
> > married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that
> > be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as
> > often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for
> > their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe
> > R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is
> > due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted
> > something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > > To:
> >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In
> > , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd
> > have a
> > > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in
> > his
> > > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Doug
> > > > >>
> > > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born
> > in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

It certainly exacerbates MS, and other auto-immune diseases.

On Feb 11, 2013, at 2:56 PM, "mariewalsh2003" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



I'm not convinced it was TB, but the bacillus can lie dormant for yearas. Stress is known to depress the immune system.
Marie

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> How can the shock trigger the TB?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB
> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:20 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>
>
> ý
> Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
>
> Eileen
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >>
> > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >>
> > > >> The clues:
> > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: liz williams
> > > >> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > >> To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Not to be indelicate, but the pelvic motion when you ride a horse at a walk (say, down a country lane) is akin to the pelvic motion when one is having sex. It's a bit more gentle and "belly dancerish," in that you're shifting first one hip and then the other in coordination with the horse. But it requires a relaxed spine and hip motion.

When you're actively riding the horse, you also use your back and every muscle up and down your legs to communicate with the animal.

So if Richard could ride for hours on campaigns, he could ride...um...elsewhere. And if he could ride a warhorse up until the day he died--which would likely need to be actively ridden rather than his just zoning out and enjoying the ride (especially around other horses and people)--I just cannot see how his back could be that bad.

If it was that bad, then he must have had a really high pain threshold.

~Weds


--- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> My comment on his back possibly making sex painful was referring to the haste
> with which the betrothal to Joanna of Portugal was drawn up- he had a nominal
> heir at that point and there's no record of him being in ill health at the time
> that I know of, so it always struck me as odd that there wasn't slightly more
> deliberation on that front. But if he was experiencing a lot of pain in his back
> by his early thirties, it would make sense to get on that even quicker than
> usual before it became impossible for him to endure altogether.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale
> To:
> Cc: paul.bale@...
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:10:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> prove difficult to him!
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in
> >1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to
> >Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they
> >would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having
> >only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of
> >mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the
> >severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that
> >effect a few days ago.....
> >
> > Ishita
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
> > To:
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >>
> >> Doug
> >>
> > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the
> >late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>

You are too giggling. And now, you have to confess it. :)

~Weds

--- In , Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>
> Holy cow!! That's a truly fascinating article!
> (I promise I am not giggling!)
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 5:32 PM, "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> > Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?
> >
> > http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx
> >
> > Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position â€" what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s â€" which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> > > Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> > > on the way
> > >
> > > G

Well, riding and even armored fighting would offer chances for built-in support,
though (weren't most armored men already buckled onto their horses, regardless
of the state of their spines? That would offer a chance to build in some
accommodation).

I'm a little bothered, to say the least, by the determination some of Richard's
defenders- including a few people in this group- seem to have as far as
insisting that the apparent scoliosis was the result of improperly stuffing him
in a coffin (or that that exacerbated it), that there was no way it made him
stand any shorter (though I should clarify that logically speaking, I don't
think he could have lost a whole foot of height, seeing as that much loss would
entail his vertebrae being ground down as well as the curvature), that he was in
no way deformed or disabled. I know how connected the whole deformed-Richard
image is with his vilification, but just because it was exaggerated or used
against him later doesn't mean it wasn't present- and it certainly doesn't mean
there's any further truth to the accusations against his character. Is it
impossible to reconcile that the physical evidence suggests he was at least
somewhat disabled while the general contemporary record of his actions states he
was a fundamentally decent and conscientious man?

I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything. It's just really started to
gnaw at me.



________________________________
From: EileenB <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:37:09 PM
Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in
battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a
problem....:0)
.

Hi Megan,

I don't recall anyone on this forum trying to argue that the scoliosis was only the result of his being stuffed into grave squiffy, or that it didn't cause him to lose any height, but a lot of us are having problems with reconciling with the historical record the "severe" scoliosis and loss of height of up to 1 ft that have been suggested by the Leicester team.
Marie


--- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> Well, riding and even armored fighting would offer chances for built-in support,
> though (weren't most armored men already buckled onto their horses, regardless
> of the state of their spines? That would offer a chance to build in some
> accommodation).
>
> I'm a little bothered, to say the least, by the determination some of Richard's
> defenders- including a few people in this group- seem to have as far as
> insisting that the apparent scoliosis was the result of improperly stuffing him
> in a coffin (or that that exacerbated it), that there was no way it made him
> stand any shorter (though I should clarify that logically speaking, I don't
> think he could have lost a whole foot of height, seeing as that much loss would
> entail his vertebrae being ground down as well as the curvature), that he was in
> no way deformed or disabled. I know how connected the whole deformed-Richard
> image is with his vilification, but just because it was exaggerated or used
> against him later doesn't mean it wasn't present- and it certainly doesn't mean
> there's any further truth to the accusations against his character. Is it
> impossible to reconcile that the physical evidence suggests he was at least
> somewhat disabled while the general contemporary record of his actions states he
> was a fundamentally decent and conscientious man?
>
> I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything. It's just really started to
> gnaw at me.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:37:09 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
> The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in
> battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a
> problem....:0)
> .
>
>
>
>
>

Thank you Marie. I did say it was off the top of my head. At the time that I read Jenny Powys Lybbe's article I did google Peter Idley and there was some information, if I remember rightly, about something that he had written. No wonder I couldn't find him if I was googling the wrong name.

Mary


--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> Anne & Peter Idley
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> >
> > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > >
> > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > >>
> > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > >>
> > > >> The clues:
> > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > >>
> > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > >>
> > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > >>
> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> From: liz williams
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > >>
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > >> To:
> > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > >
> >
>

I suspect the kind of exercise Richard would be getting would be a different
sort than a modern Olympic athlete, though.



________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 3:28:02 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
Paul

See it did not last and fizzled out due I assume to lack of support by the 1400s
It's only the Victorians who covered up piano legs etc.
G

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 5:58 PM, Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...> wrote:

> Holy cow!! That's a truly fascinating article!
> (I promise I am not giggling!)
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 5:32 PM, "wednesday_mc" wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
>
> > Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?
> >
> > http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx
> >
> > Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position  what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s  which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> > > Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> > > on the way
> > >
> > > G
> > >
> > > From:
> > > [mailto:] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:26 PM
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful
> > > medieval Catholic.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > > --- In
> > > , "Brian" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> > > >
> > > > Brian W
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> > > , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > > > prove difficult to him!
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were
> > > married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that
> > > be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as
> > > often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for
> > > their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe
> > > R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is
> > > due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted
> > > something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ishita
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > > > To:
> > >
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> > > , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd
> > > have a
> > > > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in
> > > his
> > > > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Doug
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born
> > > in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > > > Marie
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

I always thought Anne's death was caused by the death of her son.
Stress - as we call it today - can be a killer. Maire.
--- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> Shock and depression can lower immune resistance, so it's less triggering her TB
> and more blowing open the gateway that allows that to happen. It's comparable to
> how AIDS isn't a cancer, but people with it often die of an otherwise rare type
> of skin cancer- their bodies can't fight off something that they usually could.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo
> To: ""
>
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 12:41:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion
>
>
> How can the shock trigger the TB?
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>

I would imagine they just did whatever was best for them at the time and place! A whole lot of kiddies were conceived, and I would bet not all of the, arrived from the Missionary Position!

On Feb 11, 2013, at 4:41 PM, "mariewalsh2003" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



Very interesting. How much notice do you think lay people took of this?
Marie

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "wednesday_mc" wrote:
>
> Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?
>
> http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx
>
> Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position ý what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s ý which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."
>
> ~Weds
>
> --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "George Butterfield" wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> > Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> > on the way
> >
> > G
> >
> > From: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:26 PM
> > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful
> > medieval Catholic.
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > , "Brian" wrote:
> > >
> > > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> > >
> > > Brian W
> > >
> > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > > prove difficult to him!
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were
> > married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that
> > be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as
> > often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for
> > their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe
> > R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is
> > due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted
> > something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > > >
> > > > > Ishita
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > > To: <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd
> > have a
> > > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in
> > his
> > > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Doug
> > > > >>
> > > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born
> > in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Why do I think Elizabeth and Edward IV - especially in his youth - knew a few other tricks of the trade. "Jane Shore" too! Maire.


--- In , Pamela Bain wrote:
>
> I would imagine they just did whatever was best for them at the time and place! A whole lot of kiddies were conceived, and I would bet not all of the, arrived from the Missionary Position!
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 4:41 PM, "mariewalsh2003" > wrote:
>
>
>
> Very interesting. How much notice do you think lay people took of this?
> Marie
>
> --- In , "wednesday_mc" wrote:
> >
> > Then the article below and other references I've seen over the years are incorrect, and early church fathers as its referencing didn't care? It was all, "Whatever you want, however you want it, don't bother confessing a thing," by Richard's time? Or England as a whole was exempt?
> >
> > http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article05190801.aspx
> >
> > Excerpt: "In 1215, the cleric Johannes Teutonicus was the first to announce that there was only one "natural" coital position — what we today call "the missionary position," a term that was coined in the 1960s — which was also optimal for conception. Attempting any other position was a mortal sin, Johannes opined, involving exotic and unnecessary forms of stimulation."
> >
> > ~Weds
> >
> > --- In , "George Butterfield" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They didn't get round to advising missionary's to give "advice" till the
> > > Jesuit's came to the New World and I don't think they stopped off in England
> > > on the way
> > >
> > > G
> > >
> > > From:
> > > [mailto: ] On Behalf Of wednesday_mc
> > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:26 PM
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I believe there was only one way to skin a cat if Richard was a faithful
> > > medieval Catholic.
> > >
> > > ~Weds
> > >
> > > --- In
> > > , "Brian" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Aye, and don't forget, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
> > > >
> > > > Brian W
> > > >
> > > > --- In
> > > , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> > > > > prove difficult to him!
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > > > > > Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were
> > > married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that
> > > be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as
> > > often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for
> > > their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe
> > > R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is
> > > due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted
> > > something to that effect a few days ago.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ishita
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: mariewalsh2003
> > > > > > To:
> > >
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In
> > > , "Douglas Eugene >
> > > > > >> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> > > > > >> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd
> > > have a
> > > > > >> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in
> > > his
> > > > > >> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Doug
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born
> > > in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> > > > > > Marie
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Megan
I don't if you mean me, but I'm just going by my own scoliosis. When I stand I hold my back a lot straighter than when I lie down. That's why I think Richards back in the grave may have been more crooked than when he stood
This of course is only what I know from my on experience. As I've never been dead I guess I don't know for sure;)
Vickie

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 11, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@...> wrote:

> Well, riding and even armored fighting would offer chances for built-in support,
> though (weren't most armored men already buckled onto their horses, regardless
> of the state of their spines? That would offer a chance to build in some
> accommodation).
>
> I'm a little bothered, to say the least, by the determination some of Richard's
> defenders- including a few people in this group- seem to have as far as
> insisting that the apparent scoliosis was the result of improperly stuffing him
> in a coffin (or that that exacerbated it), that there was no way it made him
> stand any shorter (though I should clarify that logically speaking, I don't
> think he could have lost a whole foot of height, seeing as that much loss would
> entail his vertebrae being ground down as well as the curvature), that he was in
> no way deformed or disabled. I know how connected the whole deformed-Richard
> image is with his vilification, but just because it was exaggerated or used
> against him later doesn't mean it wasn't present- and it certainly doesn't mean
> there's any further truth to the accusations against his character. Is it
> impossible to reconcile that the physical evidence suggests he was at least
> somewhat disabled while the general contemporary record of his actions states he
> was a fundamentally decent and conscientious man?
>
> I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything. It's just really started to
> gnaw at me.
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:37:09 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
> The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in
> battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a
> problem....:0)
> .
>
>
>
>

I can't remember exactly but it was in an article that Jenny Powys Lybbe wrote in the Ricardian based on a talk she gave at one of the Triennial Conferences. Most of my Ricardians are packed away since I mnoved so I can't easily find it.

--- In , mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
>
> What is the evidence that the Idleys were connected to Margaret Beaufort? I don't think I;ve heard this one before.
> Marie
>
> --- In , "EileenB" wrote:
> >
> > Is the suggestion that Edward of Middleham was poisoned so wide of the mark. It was besides the personal loss also a gigantic one in terms of Richard being without an heir. Only last night I was read in the Mystery of the Princes that HT would not have had such an easy path to the throne if EofM had still been alive. When you see that there were people at Middleham connected to MB it just makes you think. Edward must have died unexpectedly
> > because his parents reaction as well as grief seems one of shock. Its been suggested that the shock of Edward's death could have triggered the TB that maybe killed her.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Or Ann Olney, Edward of Middleham's nurse and widow of Peter Olney who had connections to Margaret Beaufort, was responsible.
> > >
> > > --- In , Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There is only a reference in Mancini which is supposed to have come from
> > > > Dr Argentine. However, that apart nothing, and if the heir to the throne
> > > > had had health problems everyone would have been talking about it, plus
> > > > extra physicians might have been sent to Ludlow etc.
> > > > Same thing with Richard's son. His death must have been accidental, or
> > > > an unexpected and deadly virus, for it to come as such a shock to the
> > > > king, his wife and the country.
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 11/02/2013 00:04, mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > > > > Ah, but what evidence is there trhat Edward V's physical health was indifferent?
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Stephen Lark" wrote:
> > > > >> Liz (and Maire, Eileen and others),
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I have read discussions about the ex-Princes for about ten years and have simply joined up several clues. The place I have in mind would not be Shrewsbury's burial place.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The clues:
> > > > >> 1) Connections between Tyrrell, Margaret of Burgundy, Brampton and "Perkin".
> > > > >> 2) Edward's indifferent health.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In the hypothesis, Richard engages Tyrrell to take both boys to Gipping, prior to a trip to Burgundy. Edward is not up to the journey, dies whilst staying with Tyrrell and only his brother crosses the North Sea. Margaret and Brampton are also involved, before and after Bosworth. Brampton is connected to "Perkin", explaining why he is identified as the younger son, whether he is or not.
> > > > >> Tyrrell is executed at about the same time as Perkin. Both sign "confessions" and the executions are swift. Edward would be buried at Gipping Chapel.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The reason I would like to put this on ice is that I have been commissioned to write 10,000 words by 9 March, on Bosworth, the burial and exhumation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >> From: liz williams
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:51 PM
> > > > >> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> STEPHEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes i am shouting by the way.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> You can't make a statement like that and make us wait a month! Does this have anything to do with the comment Philippa is supposed to have made about another project she had in mind, or is it totally unconnected?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I am making a note in my diary for 5 weeks time.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Liz
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ________________________________
> > > > >> From: Stephen Lark stephenmlark@>
> > > > >> To:
> > > > >> Sent: Sunday, 10 February 2013, 17:43
> > > > >> Subject: A suggestion
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think I know and have seen where the former Edward V might be buried but PLEASE don't ask more for about a month.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Richard Liveth Yet!
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

There is also a good possibility that they had the ingenuity to provide a back-brace for him when the condition began to show itself in his early teens.

I don't know enough about scoliosis but removal of any bracing (armour as well), the long journey over the horse/pony back followed by the markedly uneven position of the upper torso in the grave, along with the decay of the soft tissues, may well have left a greater curvature than would have been there erect and living. Have to check how fast, given such conditions, the bones could have moved to make it look worse than it actually was in life.

I sincerely hope we have not heard the last word from the experts on this.

Aidan



________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...>
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


 
And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
Paul

On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
>> prove difficult to him!
>> Paul
>>
>> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
>>>
>>> Ishita
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

I hope that in due time a reconstructed skeleton of r3 can be rearticulated so that with the addition of cartilage a true idea of his stance can be seen.
George

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 8:32 PM, Aidan Donnelly <aidan.donnelly@...> wrote:

> There is also a good possibility that they had the ingenuity to provide a back-brace for him when the condition began to show itself in his early teens.
>
> I don't know enough about scoliosis but removal of any bracing (armour as well), the long journey over the horse/pony back followed by the markedly uneven position of the upper torso in the grave, along with the decay of the soft tissues, may well have left a greater curvature than would have been there erect and living. Have to check how fast, given such conditions, the bones could have moved to make it look worse than it actually was in life.
>
> I sincerely hope we have not heard the last word from the experts on this.
>
> Aidan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Cc: paul.bale@...
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013 4:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
>
> And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
> healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
> manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
> examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
> I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
> life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
> >
> >> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> >> prove difficult to him!
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> >>>
> >>> Ishita
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
> >>> To:
> >>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> >>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> >>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> >>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> >>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Doug
> >>>>
> >>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> >>> Marie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Richard Liveth Yet!
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>

I see it as thesis/antithesis/synthesis. We just found out that the guy had scoliosis; everybody's trying to determine what, if anything, that might have done to affect his quality of life. The video evidence available on the find (Ch4 doc, pressers, ULeic vids) comes to a total of fewer than five hours, and the March 2 conference, by itself, will be longer than that, with new details guaranteed to come out. I think we're just starting to talk about the findings and the implications.

As far as I can tell from medical experts and those who have it, scoliosis identified as "severe", as Richard's was identified, can hamper a person's ability to navigate through life easily and without pain. However, exercise is supposed to be an excellent palliative for the pain of scoliosis, and it's a fair bet Richard didn't spend a lot of time on the sofa watching the NFL with a plate of buffalo wings. What does it all mean for Richard specifically? I don't know that any of us here has the expertise to make a call one way or the other. Until such an expert weighs in, though, we're going to be speculating: on the one hand, ew, lookit that spine, that must've hurt. On the other hand, this is the body of a man who has just slaughtered his way through a bunch of armed, armored soldiers and taken out the guy with the flag. Don't look like the curved spinal column slowed him down much.

--- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> Well, riding and even armored fighting would offer chances for built-in support,
> though (weren't most armored men already buckled onto their horses, regardless
> of the state of their spines? That would offer a chance to build in some
> accommodation).
>
> I'm a little bothered, to say the least, by the determination some of Richard's
> defenders- including a few people in this group- seem to have as far as
> insisting that the apparent scoliosis was the result of improperly stuffing him
> in a coffin (or that that exacerbated it), that there was no way it made him
> stand any shorter (though I should clarify that logically speaking, I don't
> think he could have lost a whole foot of height, seeing as that much loss would
> entail his vertebrae being ground down as well as the curvature), that he was in
> no way deformed or disabled. I know how connected the whole deformed-Richard
> image is with his vilification, but just because it was exaggerated or used
> against him later doesn't mean it wasn't present- and it certainly doesn't mean
> there's any further truth to the accusations against his character. Is it
> impossible to reconcile that the physical evidence suggests he was at least
> somewhat disabled while the general contemporary record of his actions states he
> was a fundamentally decent and conscientious man?
>
> I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything. It's just really started to
> gnaw at me.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB
> To:
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:37:09 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
> The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in
> battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a
> problem....:0)
> .
>
>
>
>
>

To be honest, I've been just going through the messages with the little viewpane
thing, so I haven't looked too closely at names. I don't mean it as an attack or
anything, in any case (and Tumblr has been A LOT worse).

Regarding what I've been saying about back pain/Richard's "manly duties"- I
don't think that he was incapable at all, I just think that it's entirely
possible that it was painful, and if it was progressive with age, that would
explain the speed with which the betrothal to Joanna was contracted (making the
production of a new heir possible while he still could).





________________________________
From: Vickie <lolettecook@...>
To: ""
<>
Cc: ""
<>
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 7:05:30 PM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


Megan
I don't if you mean me, but I'm just going by my own scoliosis. When I stand I
hold my back a lot straighter than when I lie down. That's why I think Richards
back in the grave may have been more crooked than when he stood

This of course is only what I know from my on experience. As I've never been
dead I guess I don't know for sure;)
Vickie

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 11, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Megan Lerseth megan_phntmgrl@...> wrote:

> Well, riding and even armored fighting would offer chances for built-in
>support,
>
> though (weren't most armored men already buckled onto their horses, regardless

> of the state of their spines? That would offer a chance to build in some
> accommodation).
>
> I'm a little bothered, to say the least, by the determination some of Richard's
>
> defenders- including a few people in this group- seem to have as far as
> insisting that the apparent scoliosis was the result of improperly stuffing him
>
> in a coffin (or that that exacerbated it), that there was no way it made him
> stand any shorter (though I should clarify that logically speaking, I don't
> think he could have lost a whole foot of height, seeing as that much loss would
>
> entail his vertebrae being ground down as well as the curvature), that he was
>in
>
> no way deformed or disabled. I know how connected the whole deformed-Richard
> image is with his vilification, but just because it was exaggerated or used
> against him later doesn't mean it wasn't present- and it certainly doesn't mean
>
> there's any further truth to the accusations against his character. Is it
> impossible to reconcile that the physical evidence suggests he was at least
> somewhat disabled while the general contemporary record of his actions states
>he
>
> was a fundamentally decent and conscientious man?
>
> I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything. It's just really started to
>
> gnaw at me.
>
> ________________________________
> From: EileenB cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> To:
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:37:09 PM
> Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
> The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in
> battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a
> problem....:0)
> .
>
>
>
>

I can't wait for the skeletal reconstruction! They won't do it with the original remains, of course--far too fragile--but 3D replicas based on the scans can certainly be used. The wear on the vertebrae will tell the story of exactly how the spine fit together. Dr. Jo "Oops" Appleby was fairly confident that nothing had shifted appreciably after interment, but she was also confident that the pile of dirt she scraped at with the mattock was just dirt.

(I don't know why that pisses me off quite as much as it does--no harm, no foul, it happens, they can still analyze the remains, and it's not like she reduced the zygomatic arches to powder or anything. Still and all, the guy damn near wins the battle of his career and survives 527 years underground, and his first glimpse of daylight in half a millennium, he gets smacked in the puss by a scientist with a hatchet.)

--- In , Aidan Donnelly wrote:
>
> There is also a good possibility that they had the ingenuity to provide a back-brace for him when the condition began to show itself in his early teens.
>
> I don't know enough about scoliosis but removal of any bracing (armour as well), the long journey over the horse/pony back followed by the markedly uneven position of the upper torso in the grave, along with the decay of the soft tissues, may well have left a greater curvature than would have been there erect and living. Have to check how fast, given such conditions, the bones could have moved to make it look worse than it actually was in life.
>
> I sincerely hope we have not heard the last word from the experts on this.
>
> Aidan
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale
> To:
> Cc: paul.bale@...
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013 4:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
>  
> And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
> healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
> manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
> examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
> I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
> life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
> >
> >> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> >> prove difficult to him!
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving. Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem. Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a few days ago.....
> >>>
> >>> Ishita
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
> >>> To:
> >>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> >>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> >>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> >>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> >>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Doug
> >>>>
> >>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often quoted in books.
> >>> Marie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Richard Liveth Yet!
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>
>

I wrote a little speculative fiction piece some time back about what would have happened had Richard won at Bosworth. I Wikipediaed all over medieval Europe for a princess he could have married after Anne's death, and I came up with Joanna of Portugal, who was just perfect: uniter of York and Lancaster, a capable regent in her own right, extremely learned, extremely pious.

[Dryly.] Imagine my surprise.

If ten minutes' worth of research led me right straight to Joanna, Richard and his advisors must have been even more acutely aware of how much she would add to the regal ticket.

There were a couple of problems, though: one was that they had a hell of a time trying to convince Joanna not to run off to a convent and forswear any thought of dynastic marriage. For another, Richard needed legitimate heirs, and pronto: the guy was over 30 and had not one single heir of his own body.

So... yeah. Big hurry. It didn't mean he would mourn his first wife any less, but he had a hell of a job to do and they weren't about to waste a moment.

--- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> To be honest, I've been just going through the messages with the little viewpane
> thing, so I haven't looked too closely at names. I don't mean it as an attack or
> anything, in any case (and Tumblr has been A LOT worse).
>
> Regarding what I've been saying about back pain/Richard's "manly duties"- I
> don't think that he was incapable at all, I just think that it's entirely
> possible that it was painful, and if it was progressive with age, that would
> explain the speed with which the betrothal to Joanna was contracted (making the
> production of a new heir possible while he still could).
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Vickie
> To: ""
>
> Cc: ""
>
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 7:05:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
> Megan
> I don't if you mean me, but I'm just going by my own scoliosis. When I stand I
> hold my back a lot straighter than when I lie down. That's why I think Richards
> back in the grave may have been more crooked than when he stood
>
> This of course is only what I know from my on experience. As I've never been
> dead I guess I don't know for sure;)
> Vickie
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Megan Lerseth megan_phntmgrl@...> wrote:
>
> > Well, riding and even armored fighting would offer chances for built-in
> >support,
> >
> > though (weren't most armored men already buckled onto their horses, regardless
>
> > of the state of their spines? That would offer a chance to build in some
> > accommodation).
> >
> > I'm a little bothered, to say the least, by the determination some of Richard's
> >
> > defenders- including a few people in this group- seem to have as far as
> > insisting that the apparent scoliosis was the result of improperly stuffing him
> >
> > in a coffin (or that that exacerbated it), that there was no way it made him
> > stand any shorter (though I should clarify that logically speaking, I don't
> > think he could have lost a whole foot of height, seeing as that much loss would
> >
> > entail his vertebrae being ground down as well as the curvature), that he was
> >in
> >
> > no way deformed or disabled. I know how connected the whole deformed-Richard
> > image is with his vilification, but just because it was exaggerated or used
> > against him later doesn't mean it wasn't present- and it certainly doesn't mean
> >
> > there's any further truth to the accusations against his character. Is it
> > impossible to reconcile that the physical evidence suggests he was at least
> > somewhat disabled while the general contemporary record of his actions states
> >he
> >
> > was a fundamentally decent and conscientious man?
> >
> > I don't mean this as a personal attack or anything. It's just really started to
> >
> > gnaw at me.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: EileenB cherryripe.eileenb@...>
> > To:
> > Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 1:37:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
> >
> > The mind boggles! But seriously...if Richard had no problems fighting in
> > battles, riding for days etc., Im pretty sure that sex would not have been a
> > problem....:0)
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>