The Sun in Spendour?

The 'sun in splendour' motif was one of Richard's emblems. It seems to be found in the House of Plantagenet from at least the reign of Edward II, then to Edward IV. But does anyone know when this emblem first became associated with the Plantagenets please, & why?

Also wondering why Richard related to this motif, if there was any particular reason, more than it just being a family association?

Many thanks,

Ric

Ric wrote:
>
> The 'sun in splendour' motif was one of Richard's emblems. It seems to be found in the House of Plantagenet from at least the reign of Edward II, then to Edward IV. But does anyone know when this emblem first became associated with the Plantagenets please, & why?
>
> Also wondering why Richard related to this motif, if there was any particular reason, more than it just being a family association?

Carol responds:

Hi, Ric. Actually, it was Edward's emblem (his courtiers wore gold collars combining suns and roses. The origin is a weather phenomenon called a parhelion (which to the soldiers looked like three suns) before the Battle of Mortimer's Cross. According to the story (which must be true or Edward would not have adopted the emblem), the superstitious soldiers were afraid that it was an evil omen until Edward had the brilliant idea to tell them that it was a sign from God indicating that they were going to win. Edward's troops were seemingly inspired to fight "knowing" that they were going to win. The Lancastrians were still, presumably, terrified by the omen. In any case, Edward did win and adopted the sun in splendor as one of his personal emblems. (When I first spotted "The Sunne in Splendour" in a bookstore, I expected it to be about Edward! Gloucester's famous line in Shekespeare's play ("Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by the Sun of York" refers to Edward and his sun emblem.

BTW, this website says something I've never read before, that Edward explained the significance of the three suns by saying that they referred to the three surviving *sons* of the Duke of York--himself, George of Clarence, and Richard of Gloucester: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/WarsoftheRoses/p/Wars-Of-The-Roses-Battle-Of-Mortimer-S-Cross.htm

Those York brothers and their puns: Richard's boar emblem is probably a pun on Eboracum, the Roman name for York.

Carol

Read somewhere that Jorvik, the Viking name for York, means vale of the white Boar.

--- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
>
> Ric wrote:
> >
> > The 'sun in splendour' motif was one of Richard's emblems. It seems to be found in the House of Plantagenet from at least the reign of Edward II, then to Edward IV. But does anyone know when this emblem first became associated with the Plantagenets please, & why?
> >
> > Also wondering why Richard related to this motif, if there was any particular reason, more than it just being a family association?
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Hi, Ric. Actually, it was Edward's emblem (his courtiers wore gold collars combining suns and roses. The origin is a weather phenomenon called a parhelion (which to the soldiers looked like three suns) before the Battle of Mortimer's Cross. According to the story (which must be true or Edward would not have adopted the emblem), the superstitious soldiers were afraid that it was an evil omen until Edward had the brilliant idea to tell them that it was a sign from God indicating that they were going to win. Edward's troops were seemingly inspired to fight "knowing" that they were going to win. The Lancastrians were still, presumably, terrified by the omen. In any case, Edward did win and adopted the sun in splendor as one of his personal emblems. (When I first spotted "The Sunne in Splendour" in a bookstore, I expected it to be about Edward! Gloucester's famous line in Shekespeare's play ("Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by the Sun of York" refers to Edward and his sun emblem.
>
> BTW, this website says something I've never read before, that Edward explained the significance of the three suns by saying that they referred to the three surviving *sons* of the Duke of York--himself, George of Clarence, and Richard of Gloucester: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/WarsoftheRoses/p/Wars-Of-The-Roses-Battle-Of-Mortimer-S-Cross.htm
>
> Those York brothers and their puns: Richard's boar emblem is probably a pun on Eboracum, the Roman name for York.
>
> Carol
>

--- In , "justcarol67" wrote:
>
> Hi, Ric. Actually, it was Edward's emblem (his courtiers wore gold collars combining suns and roses. The origin is a weather phenomenon called a parhelion (which to the soldiers looked like three suns) before the Battle of Mortimer's Cross. According to the story (which must be true or Edward would not have adopted the emblem), the superstitious soldiers were afraid that it was an evil omen until Edward had the brilliant idea to tell them that it was a sign from God indicating that they were going to win. Edward's troops were seemingly inspired to fight "knowing" that they were going to win. The Lancastrians were still, presumably, terrified by the omen. In any case, Edward did win and adopted the sun in splendor as one of his personal emblems. (When I first spotted "The Sunne in Splendour" in a bookstore, I expected it to be about Edward! Gloucester's famous line in Shekespeare's play ("Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by the Sun of York" refers to Edward and his sun emblem.
>
> BTW, this website says something I've never read before, that Edward explained the significance of the three suns by saying that they referred to the three surviving *sons* of the Duke of York--himself, George of Clarence, and Richard of Gloucester: http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/WarsoftheRoses/p/Wars-Of-The-Roses-Battle-Of-Mortimer-S-Cross.htm
>
> Those York brothers and their puns: Richard's boar emblem is probably a pun on Eboracum, the Roman name for York.
>
>
>

Hi Carol,

Found this:-

'The Sun in Splendour was used as a badge by Edward II and was later adopted by Edward IV following the appearance of a parhelion or "sun dog" before his victory at the Battle of Mortimer's Cross in 1461.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_in_splendour

I saw a parhelion once, on an overcast day, looked odd - like a reflection of the sun in the sky. I don't know why it's called a dog though. The Emperor Constantine also seems to have been affected by the appearance of a parhelion in 337 or 338 CE which he interpreted as the Sign of the Cross which is in absolute accord with the sun being anciently viewed as a four-spoke wheel. Meanwhile, someone on this group thinks Richard related 1:1 to the sun emblem:

"The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was
one of his central motifs...it appears to be a crucial part of how he saw himself...he explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had made him to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/1295

I wonder why Edward II adopted the sun motif though?

Thanks,

Ric

Yes, York means boar, 'ebor' I think, but I can't remember what language that is from. The boar is a documented symbol from the Early Middle Ages.

http://midgleywebpages.com/helmet.jpg



--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Read somewhere that Jorvik, the Viking name for York, means vale of the white Boar.

[edit]

The Roman name for York was Eboracum...

Aidan


________________________________
From: Phaeton G <phaetongraph@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: The Sun in Spendour?


 
Yes, York means boar, 'ebor' I think, but I can't remember what language that is from. The boar is a documented symbol from the Early Middle Ages.

http://midgleywebpages.com/helmet.jpg

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Read somewhere that Jorvik, the Viking name for York, means vale of the white Boar.

[edit]

Jorvik the Viking name for York apparently means Vale of the white boar.

--- In , Aidan Donnelly wrote:
>
>
>
> The Roman name for York was Eboracum...
>
> Aidan
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Phaeton G
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 7:38 AM
> Subject: Re: The Sun in Spendour?
>
>
>  
> Yes, York means boar, 'ebor' I think, but I can't remember what language that is from. The boar is a documented symbol from the Early Middle Ages.
>
> http://midgleywebpages.com/helmet.jpg
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Read somewhere that Jorvik, the Viking name for York, means vale of the white Boar.
>
> [edit]
>
>
>
>
>
>

Just had a thought was it Viking or was it the Anglo Saxon name for York?

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Jorvik the Viking name for York apparently means Vale of the white boar.
>
> --- In , Aidan Donnelly wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > The Roman name for York was Eboracum...
> >
> > Aidan
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Phaeton G
> > To:
> > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 7:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: The Sun in Spendour?
> >
> >
> >  
> > Yes, York means boar, 'ebor' I think, but I can't remember what language that is from. The boar is a documented symbol from the Early Middle Ages.
> >
> > http://midgleywebpages.com/helmet.jpg
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Read somewhere that Jorvik, the Viking name for York, means vale of the white Boar.
> >
> > [edit]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Origins of name for York - first seen on the tablets from Vindolanda (approx 100AD)

The Roman name for York was Eboracum, based on a native British name for the ancient site. It is thought that the root of the early name was Eburos, an Ancient British personal name, which suggests that the site was founded by someone called Eburos.
An alternative view is that the name is based on the Ancient British word Eburos meaning Yew, a sacred Celtic tree from which the personal name Eburos derives. In Roman times there was a tribe in Gaul called the Eburorovices, who were the 'Warriors of the Yew Tree'.

When the Anglo-Saxons arrived in the north from Germany and Denmark in the sixth century they made Eboracum the capital of Deira, a Northumbrian sub-kingdom. Eboracum was corrupted by Anglo-Saxon speech into Eoforwic meaning 'wild boar settlement'. The Anglo-Saxons confused the Celtic word 'Ebor' meaning yew tree with their own word 'Eofor' meaning 'wild boar'.

--- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
>
> Just had a thought was it Viking or was it the Anglo Saxon name for York?
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Jorvik the Viking name for York apparently means Vale of the white boar.
> >
> > --- In , Aidan Donnelly wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Roman name for York was Eboracum...
> > >
> > > Aidan
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Phaeton G
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 7:38 AM
> > > Subject: Re: The Sun in Spendour?
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > > Yes, York means boar, 'ebor' I think, but I can't remember what language that is from. The boar is a documented symbol from the Early Middle Ages.
> > >
> > > http://midgleywebpages.com/helmet.jpg
> > >
> > > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Read somewhere that Jorvik, the Viking name for York, means vale of the white Boar.
> > >
> > > [edit]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

In Latin documents of Richard's time Eboracum was pretty much always written in the abbreviated form Ebor', and in the English of the time boar was almost always spelt bore, so as well as the Norse Jorvik actually meaning Boar-settlement, the form of the city's name in Latin documents (and most documents were still in Latin) was an anagram of the Middle English word for boar.
Marie

--- In , "fletcher_kate@..." wrote:
>
> Origins of name for York - first seen on the tablets from Vindolanda (approx 100AD)
>
> The Roman name for York was Eboracum, based on a native British name for the ancient site. It is thought that the root of the early name was Eburos, an Ancient British personal name, which suggests that the site was founded by someone called Eburos.
> An alternative view is that the name is based on the Ancient British word Eburos meaning Yew, a sacred Celtic tree from which the personal name Eburos derives. In Roman times there was a tribe in Gaul called the Eburorovices, who were the 'Warriors of the Yew Tree'.
>
> When the Anglo-Saxons arrived in the north from Germany and Denmark in the sixth century they made Eboracum the capital of Deira, a Northumbrian sub-kingdom. Eboracum was corrupted by Anglo-Saxon speech into Eoforwic meaning 'wild boar settlement'. The Anglo-Saxons confused the Celtic word 'Ebor' meaning yew tree with their own word 'Eofor' meaning 'wild boar'.
>
> --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> >
> > Just had a thought was it Viking or was it the Anglo Saxon name for York?
> >
> > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > >
> > > Jorvik the Viking name for York apparently means Vale of the white boar.
> > >
> > > --- In , Aidan Donnelly wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Roman name for York was Eboracum...
> > > >
> > > > Aidan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Phaeton G
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 7:38 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: The Sun in Spendour?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > > Yes, York means boar, 'ebor' I think, but I can't remember what language that is from. The boar is a documented symbol from the Early Middle Ages.
> > > >
> > > > http://midgleywebpages.com/helmet.jpg
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "ricard1an" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Read somewhere that Jorvik, the Viking name for York, means vale of the white Boar.
> > > >
> > > > [edit]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Ric wrote:
>
> Found this:-
>
> 'The Sun in Splendour was used as a badge by Edward II and was later adopted by Edward IV following the appearance of a parhelion or "sun dog" before his victory at the Battle of Mortimer's Cross in 1461.'
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_in_splendour

[snip]

. Meanwhile, someone on this group thinks Richard related 1:1 to the sun emblem:
>
> "The Sun in Splendour was the motif on Richard's banner, it was
> one of his central motifs...it appears to be a crucial part of how he saw himself...he explained that he WAS the sun in splendour, because God had made him to shine brightly among the stars of the nobility"
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group//message/1295

Carol responds:

The original message is 1268. The one you linked to quotes it. Unfortunately, the person who wrote that message is evidently no longer a member of this group so we can't ask her to quote her source, which she says is a letter from Richard to York, rather than paraphrasing it. The view of himself as sent by God to shine among the stars of the nobility does not sound like Richard to me (Edward, maybe) and as I said, it was Edward's emblem or cognizance (don't know the right word), not Richard's. If Richard used it as king along with his own, it might have been a sign of loyalty to or continuity with his dead brother, but I suspect that she misread the letter, which might have been written while Richard was Duke of Gloucester to explain the significance of *Edward's* sun in splendor badge.

If anyone knows about and can quote this letter, I'd appreciate it. I'd also appreciate anyone with a knowledge of heraldry confirming or refuting the statement that the sun in splendor was Richard's badge, or part of it. There's no question that it was Edward's, as is shown, for example, by the suns and roses collars that his courtiers wore, and the parhelion explanation is quite standard. (Richard was too young to be present at that battle, and could hardly claim it as a sign of *his* victory. I think our fellow poster is mistaken. I'm going back to those old posts to see if anyone corrects her.

Meanwhile, Ric, you might try to find someone other than a group member who states that it was Richard's badge. As you've probably discovered, we make mistakes.

Carol

Someone who knows about heraldry

Carol earlier:
> [snip] I think our fellow poster is mistaken. I'm going back to those old posts to see if anyone corrects her. [snip]
>
Carol again:

All I found was the response to Dora by someone named Janet in the post that you first quoted:

"The Sunne in Splendor was a cognizance of the Yorks by virtue of
Edward IV's experience at the Battle of Mortimer - seeing a
parahelion in the sky (three suns at once). He took that as a sign
that his cause was favored (by God and everyine else except the
Lancastrians, I guess! :-) ) I would think Richard simply carried
on this Yorkist emblem and added it to his own of the white boar."

That pretty much sums up my view, except that I'm not sure whether Richard added the sun in splendor to his own banner.

That unfortunate "Someone who knows about heraldry" after my name is a misplaced thought that I intended to finish (asking someone on the list who knows about heraldry to help us) and is *not* intended to describe me. That's what happens when I sign my posts before reading them over (which also explains the multiple signatures on some of my posts).

Checking now to make sure that there's nothing lurking beneath my signature!
>
Carol

Hi Carol
               This post from yersterday might help - the work refers to is an incredible look at heraldry and covers just about every aspect and many many images and descriptions
from at least William I on. I could have stayed stuck in thee for hours as it explains lot's of the meaning behind various symbols etc

Aidan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And this entry comes from a huge work on Heraldry covering Royals and
nobles of and going through the centuries, it does
appear to describe the device in the window linked to below. The link is http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23186/23186-h/23186-h.htm - Big work
this entry -  a list of devices used by English Monarchs is just over
half-way through


Henry VII.: A Rose of York
and Lancaster, a Portcullis and a Fleur de lys, all of them
crowned: a Red Dragon: a White Greyhound: a Hawthorn Bush
and Crown, with the cypher H. R.



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 15 February 2013 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: The Sun in Spendour?


 
Carol earlier:
> [snip] I think our fellow poster is mistaken. I'm going back to those old posts to see if anyone corrects her. [snip]
>
Carol again:

All I found was the response to Dora by someone named Janet in the post that you first quoted:

"The Sunne in Splendor was a cognizance of the Yorks by virtue of
Edward IV's experience at the Battle of Mortimer - seeing a
parahelion in the sky (three suns at once). He took that as a sign
that his cause was favored (by God and everyine else except the
Lancastrians, I guess! :-) ) I would think Richard simply carried
on this Yorkist emblem and added it to his own of the white boar."

That pretty much sums up my view, except that I'm not sure whether Richard added the sun in splendor to his own banner.

That unfortunate "Someone who knows about heraldry" after my name is a misplaced thought that I intended to finish (asking someone on the list who knows about heraldry to help us) and is *not* intended to describe me. That's what happens when I sign my posts before reading them over (which also explains the multiple signatures on some of my posts).

Checking now to make sure that there's nothing lurking beneath my signature!
>
Carol

It's a modern work on heraldry, though, so it can't tell us whether Henry VII had a hawthorn & crown badge or a rosebush & crown badge that was later misinertreted as hawthorn & crown. We need primary, rather than secondary sources.
Marie

--- In , Aidan Donnelly wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Carol
>                This post from yersterday might help - the work refers to is an incredible look at heraldry and covers just about every aspect and many many images and descriptions
> from at least William I on. I could have stayed stuck in thee for hours as it explains lot's of the meaning behind various symbols etc
>
> Aidan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> And this entry comes from a huge work on Heraldry covering Royals and
> nobles of and going through the centuries, it does
> appear to describe the device in the window linked to below. The link is http://www.gutenberg.org/files/23186/23186-h/23186-h.htm - Big work
> this entry -  a list of devices used by English Monarchs is just over
> half-way through
>
>
> Henry VII.: A Rose of York
> and Lancaster, a Portcullis and a Fleur de lys, all of them
> crowned: a Red Dragon: a White Greyhound: a Hawthorn Bush
> and Crown, with the cypher H. R.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: justcarol67
> To:
> Sent: Friday, 15 February 2013 10:47 AM
> Subject: Re: The Sun in Spendour?
>
>
>  
> Carol earlier:
> > [snip] I think our fellow poster is mistaken. I'm going back to those old posts to see if anyone corrects her. [snip]
> >
> Carol again:
>
> All I found was the response to Dora by someone named Janet in the post that you first quoted:
>
> "The Sunne in Splendor was a cognizance of the Yorks by virtue of
> Edward IV's experience at the Battle of Mortimer - seeing a
> parahelion in the sky (three suns at once). He took that as a sign
> that his cause was favored (by God and everyine else except the
> Lancastrians, I guess! :-) ) I would think Richard simply carried
> on this Yorkist emblem and added it to his own of the white boar."
>
> That pretty much sums up my view, except that I'm not sure whether Richard added the sun in splendor to his own banner.
>
> That unfortunate "Someone who knows about heraldry" after my name is a misplaced thought that I intended to finish (asking someone on the list who knows about heraldry to help us) and is *not* intended to describe me. That's what happens when I sign my posts before reading them over (which also explains the multiple signatures on some of my posts).
>
> Checking now to make sure that there's nothing lurking beneath my signature!
> >
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>

Aidan Donnelly wrote:
>
> Hi Carol
>                This post from yersterday might help - the work refers to is an incredible look at heraldry and covers just about every aspect and many many images and descriptions
> from at least William I on. I could have stayed stuck in thee for hours as it explains lot's of the meaning behind various symbols etc
>
Carol responds:

I'll get back with you offlist but have a gazillion posts to get through first. What's the publication date on the Boutell (sp?) book? (sorry; snipped the rest of your post prematurely.)

Did you know that Richard III founded the College of Heralds?

Carol

Edward II's wife Isabella is associated with an heraldic sun device, this is celebrated in a stained glass window in York Minster. This is possibly where the sun motif enters the Plantagenet annals.


"It was used as a badge by Edward II of England"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_%28heraldry%29


"French royal connections through the inclusion of Edward II's wife Isabella, who can be seen with a sable rayed sun behind her."

http://vidimus.org/issues/issue-38/panel-of-the-month/



--- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> It's a modern work on heraldry, though, so it can't tell us whether Henry VII had a hawthorn & crown badge or a rosebush & crown badge that was later misinertreted as hawthorn & crown. We need primary, rather than secondary sources.
> Marie
>
> --- In , Aidan Donnelly wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Carol
> >                This post from yersterday might help - the work refers to is an incredible look at heraldry and covers just about every aspect and many many images and descriptions
> > from at least William I on. I could have stayed stuck in thee for hours as it explains lot's of the meaning behind various symbols etc
> >
> > Aidan
> >
> >

[edit]

http://kingrichardarmitage.rgcwp.com/files/2012/08/RIII-Banner-RIIIF.jpg

what look like the rays of a Ricardian sun frame the White Rose of York. I also notice a yellow flower [or sun?] on this (below) stained glass, can anyone kindly tell me what it is & symbolises please?

http://kingrichardarmitage.rgcwp.com/files/2012/08/York-Minster-RIIIF-1024x893.jpg

Thank you.




--- In , "Phaeton G" <phaetongraph@...> wrote:
>
> Edward II's wife Isabella is associated with an heraldic sun device, this is celebrated in a stained glass window in York Minster. This is possibly where the sun motif enters the Plantagenet annals.
>
>
> "It was used as a badge by Edward II of England"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_%28heraldry%29
>
>
> "French royal connections through the inclusion of Edward II's wife Isabella, who can be seen with a sable rayed sun behind her."
>
> http://vidimus.org/issues/issue-38/panel-of-the-month/
>
>
>
> --- In , mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > It's a modern work on heraldry, though, so it can't tell us whether Henry VII had a hawthorn & crown badge or a rosebush & crown badge that was later misinertreted as hawthorn & crown. We need primary, rather than secondary sources.
> > Marie

[edit]

The rayed white rose is in fact the 'rose-en-soleil'.

Edward IV Roll shows numerous rose-en-soleil together with repeated sun-in-splendour motif, plus white stag device presumably celebrating Richard II?

This reproduction is too small however to make much sense of it, possibly there are higher resolutions of the roll?

http://www.r3.org/bookcase/misc/edward4roll/frame.html



--- In , "Phaeton G" <phaetongraph@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> http://kingrichardarmitage.rgcwp.com/files/2012/08/RIII-Banner-RIIIF.jpg
>
> what look like the rays of a Ricardian sun frame the White Rose of York. I also notice a yellow flower [or sun?] on this (below) stained glass, can anyone kindly tell me what it is & symbolises please?
>
> http://kingrichardarmitage.rgcwp.com/files/2012/08/York-Minster-RIIIF-1024x893.jpg
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> [edit]

There's a clearer image of Richard's stained glass here at York Minster.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mkVUK-baPys/T1pLDu-JLcI/AAAAAAAABW4/tZR_SjVXXrM/s1600/York+Minster+Glass.jpg

This is definitely a golden rayed sun roundel at lower right balancing the white rose of York to the left. The white rose is probably in origin the mystic rose, it symbolises the Virgin Mary and can be traced through to the Old Testament, to the Song of Songs and the Rose of Sharon.

And all shall be well and
All manner of things shall be well
When the tongues of flames are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.

TS Eliot, 'Four Quartets: Little Gidding'.



--- In , "Phaeton G" <phaetongraph@...> wrote:
>
> The rayed white rose is in fact the 'rose-en-soleil'.
>
> Edward IV Roll shows numerous rose-en-soleil together with repeated sun-in-splendour motif, plus white stag device presumably celebrating Richard II?
>
> This reproduction is too small however to make much sense of it, possibly there are higher resolutions of the roll?
>
> http://www.r3.org/bookcase/misc/edward4roll/frame.html
>
>
>
> --- In , "Phaeton G" <phaetongraph@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > http://kingrichardarmitage.rgcwp.com/files/2012/08/RIII-Banner-RIIIF.jpg
> >
> > what look like the rays of a Ricardian sun frame the White Rose of York. I also notice a yellow flower [or sun?] on this (below) stained glass, can anyone kindly tell me what it is & symbolises please?
> >
> > http://kingrichardarmitage.rgcwp.com/files/2012/08/York-Minster-RIIIF-1024x893.jpg

"Phaeton G" wrote:
>
> There's a clearer image of Richard's stained glass here at York Minster.
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-mkVUK-baPys/T1pLDu-JLcI/AAAAAAAABW4/tZR_SjVXXrM/s1600/York+Minster+Glass.jpg
>
> This is definitely a golden rayed sun roundel at lower right balancing the white rose of York to the left. The white rose is probably in origin the mystic rose, it symbolises the Virgin Mary and can be traced through to the Old Testament, to the Song of Songs and the Rose of Sharon.

[snip]

Carol responds:

I'll leave the Marian symbolism to Marie. For me, the question is still the one that the original poster in this thread raised (Doug?), which is why Richard (or his herald) incorporated Edward's sunne in splendour into his coat of arms. My only guess is that he wanted to emphasize the continuity between his reign and his brother's.

Also, that stained glass depiction of Richard's coat of arms is modern. We need a copy from an illuminated manuscript or some such source to see it as it appeared in his time. Did his coat of arms incorporate his brother's symbol?

Someone here (my apologies for forgetting the name) has done an extensive study of heraldry and can probably answer those questions.

Carol

Carol wrote:

"I'll leave the Marian symbolism to Marie. For me, the question is still the
one that the original poster in this thread raised (Doug?), which is why
Richard (or his herald) incorporated Edward's sunne in splendour into his
coat of arms. My only guess is that he wanted to emphasize the continuity
between his reign and his brother's."

Doug here:

It wasn't me that posted the original query, but I'm inclined to go with the
sentiment in your last sentence - Richard incorporated Edward's "sunne" to
as a sign that, yes, he (Richard) WAS Edward's legal heir.
Doug

--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote [edit]:

> I'll leave the Marian symbolism to Marie. For me, the question is still the one that the original poster in this thread raised (Doug?), which is why Richard (or his herald) incorporated Edward's sunne in splendour into his coat of arms. My only guess is that he wanted to emphasize the continuity between his reign and his brother's.
>
> Also, that stained glass depiction of Richard's coat of arms is modern. We need a copy from an illuminated manuscript or some such source to see it as it appeared in his time. Did his coat of arms incorporate his brother's symbol?
>
> Someone here (my apologies for forgetting the name) has done an extensive study of heraldry and can probably answer those questions.
>
>
>

Thanks Carol,

Well we've covered some ground since message #25969 and verified that the sun, as in the rose-en-soleil, was indeed also one of Richard's emblems - carried on some of his banners - albeit inherited from Edward IV.

Yes, the window dates from 1996-7, created by Alan Wright and kindly donated by the Society of Friends of King Richard III.

It is something of an actual coincidence that Edward used the parhelion to spur his forces on that day, because Constantine the Great did exactly that CE 312 at the battle of Saxa Rubra, Constantine being created emperor at what subsequently became York Minster of course. Constantine's earlier allegiance was to Sol Invictus I have read.

Parhelions take several forms including two bright 'dogs' either side of the sun, and hence Edward's apparent reference to the Trinity and / or as elsewhere suggested, the three sons. A very bright parhelion can include a third dog over plus a halo around the sun, suggesting the equal armed solar cross. This was possibly Constantine's vision, if it was not an earlier vision of his in respect of Sol Invictus.

It is tempting to see something similar for the rose-en-soleil.

To what extent the sun-in-splendour can be included as Richard's symbol - a motif which sometimes includes sun's visage - remains to be seen. Richard certainly identified with the sun symbol as the 'rose-en-soleil'.

http://www.flyingcolours.org/uploads/From_Dongle/Heraldic_Flags/Richard_III_Close_up.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_in_splendour

Ric

--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
>
>
> Carol wrote:
>
> "I'll leave the Marian symbolism to Marie. For me, the question is still the
> one that the original poster in this thread raised (Doug?), which is why
> Richard (or his herald) incorporated Edward's sunne in splendour into his
> coat of arms. My only guess is that he wanted to emphasize the continuity
> between his reign and his brother's."
>
> Doug here:
>
> It wasn't me that posted the original query, but I'm inclined to go with the
> sentiment in your last sentence - Richard incorporated Edward's "sunne" to
> as a sign that, yes, he (Richard) WAS Edward's legal heir.
> Doug
>

That sounds very reasonable to me.

Phaeton G" wrote:

[snip}
> It is something of an actual coincidence that Edward used the parhelion to spur his forces on that day, because Constantine the Great did exactly that CE 312 at the battle of Saxa Rubra, Constantine being created emperor at what subsequently became York Minster of course. Constantine's earlier allegiance was to Sol Invictus I have read.

[snip]

Carol responds:

Maybe not a coincidence? Besides having a good understanding of human psychology long before the term was invented even at that early age (knowing exactly how to motivate his troops and turn their superstitious fears to his advantage), Edward undoubtedly studied history. We know that he consciously followed Henry IV's example in claiming that he had returned only to reclaim his duchy of York and not the kingship (Henry had said that he was returning only to claim his duchy of Lancaster). If he was familiar with Constantine's use of the parhelion in 312 BC (to use the terminology that Edward would have used), he could well have been inspired by that example. It would be very much in character.

Carol

Thanks. Problem posting. R


--- In , "justcarol67" <justcarol67@...> wrote:
>
> Phaeton G" wrote:
>
> [snip}
> > It is something of an actual coincidence that Edward used the parhelion to spur his forces on that day, because Constantine the Great did exactly that CE 312 at the battle of Saxa Rubra, Constantine being created emperor at what subsequently became York Minster of course. Constantine's earlier allegiance was to Sol Invictus I have read.
>
> [snip]
>
> Carol responds:
>
> Maybe not a coincidence? Besides having a good understanding of human psychology long before the term was invented even at that early age (knowing exactly how to motivate his troops and turn their superstitious fears to his advantage), Edward undoubtedly studied history. We know that he consciously followed Henry IV's example in claiming that he had returned only to reclaim his duchy of York and not the kingship (Henry had said that he was returning only to claim his duchy of Lancaster). If he was familiar with Constantine's use of the parhelion in 312 BC (to use the terminology that Edward would have used), he could well have been inspired by that example. It would be very much in character.
>
> Carol
>