Abbey and Tower
Abbey and Tower
2003-07-17 12:23:19
Depressing!
Visited Westminster Abbey and the Tower of London yesterday.
In the Abbey there is NO translation of the Latin inscription on THAT urn of
pigs and other bones, NOR is there any placard from the Richard the Third
Society offering the truth/alternative version of events.
Outside the Tower of London (I¹m sure we all know about inside there is the
libel of James Tyrell and Richard on the wall of the Garden/Bloody Tower,
and the slander of the Yeomen guides) there is a huge piece of placarding
that surrounds a work area, probably building an audio visual centre but
don¹t know for certain.
On this placard we have a ³history² of the Tower.
The 15th Century section has the following:-
TOWER FACT
George, Duke of Clarence, is executed in 1478 by drowning in a butt of
Madeira, and next to this is another FACT
nest to this with a copy of the Millais painting of the ³princes² is the
following:-
In 1483 the ŒPrinces in the Tower¹, the 12 year old Prince Edward and his
brother Richard, are murdered .... their bodies hidden until they are
discovered in the White Tower in 1674.
At least Richard isn¹t mentioned as responsible for both or either. But as
the Yeomen of the Guard still blame him in their guided tour spiel, it is
clear we still have a long way to go.
And to get into the Abbey costs 6UKP and the Tower now costs an outrageous
13.50UKP! With no concessions for Londoners at either place.
Paul
Visited Westminster Abbey and the Tower of London yesterday.
In the Abbey there is NO translation of the Latin inscription on THAT urn of
pigs and other bones, NOR is there any placard from the Richard the Third
Society offering the truth/alternative version of events.
Outside the Tower of London (I¹m sure we all know about inside there is the
libel of James Tyrell and Richard on the wall of the Garden/Bloody Tower,
and the slander of the Yeomen guides) there is a huge piece of placarding
that surrounds a work area, probably building an audio visual centre but
don¹t know for certain.
On this placard we have a ³history² of the Tower.
The 15th Century section has the following:-
TOWER FACT
George, Duke of Clarence, is executed in 1478 by drowning in a butt of
Madeira, and next to this is another FACT
nest to this with a copy of the Millais painting of the ³princes² is the
following:-
In 1483 the ŒPrinces in the Tower¹, the 12 year old Prince Edward and his
brother Richard, are murdered .... their bodies hidden until they are
discovered in the White Tower in 1674.
At least Richard isn¹t mentioned as responsible for both or either. But as
the Yeomen of the Guard still blame him in their guided tour spiel, it is
clear we still have a long way to go.
And to get into the Abbey costs 6UKP and the Tower now costs an outrageous
13.50UKP! With no concessions for Londoners at either place.
Paul
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Abbey and Tower
2003-07-17 13:57:53
Have to agree with Paul that prices to enter "National" places of interest are scandalous. Other places in the world seem to charge so much
less, are still maintained and well used.
Cannot agree with the throw away comment about the cost to
Londoners - we all should pay the same regardless - (please do
not kill file me for having an alternative view Paul as I find your
comments on many things very interesting and informative).
Perhaps we should not be surprised by the view of the Abbey and
Tower, despite the good works of the Richard III society trying to
get them to change their stance on such matters.
We are talking about the establishment (based in the south)
Richard was a northern King and history is often based on
the views of the victor.
Shame they cannot have a more open opinion on such matters.
"P.T.Bale" <paultrevor@...> wrote:
Depressing!
Visited Westminster Abbey and the Tower of London yesterday.
In the Abbey there is NO translation of the Latin inscription on THAT urn of
pigs and other bones, NOR is there any placard from the Richard the Third
Society offering the truth/alternative version of events.
Outside the Tower of London (I¹m sure we all know about inside there is the
libel of James Tyrell and Richard on the wall of the Garden/Bloody Tower,
and the slander of the Yeomen guides) there is a huge piece of placarding
that surrounds a work area, probably building an audio visual centre but
don¹t know for certain.
On this placard we have a ³history² of the Tower.
The 15th Century section has the following:-
TOWER FACT
George, Duke of Clarence, is executed in 1478 by drowning in a butt of
Madeira, and next to this is another FACT
nest to this with a copy of the Millais painting of the ³princes² is the
following:-
In 1483 the ŒPrinces in the Tower¹, the 12 year old Prince Edward and his
brother Richard, are murdered .... their bodies hidden until they are
discovered in the White Tower in 1674.
At least Richard isn¹t mentioned as responsible for both or either. But as
the Yeomen of the Guard still blame him in their guided tour spiel, it is
clear we still have a long way to go.
And to get into the Abbey costs 6UKP and the Tower now costs an outrageous
13.50UKP! With no concessions for Londoners at either place.
Paul
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less, are still maintained and well used.
Cannot agree with the throw away comment about the cost to
Londoners - we all should pay the same regardless - (please do
not kill file me for having an alternative view Paul as I find your
comments on many things very interesting and informative).
Perhaps we should not be surprised by the view of the Abbey and
Tower, despite the good works of the Richard III society trying to
get them to change their stance on such matters.
We are talking about the establishment (based in the south)
Richard was a northern King and history is often based on
the views of the victor.
Shame they cannot have a more open opinion on such matters.
"P.T.Bale" <paultrevor@...> wrote:
Depressing!
Visited Westminster Abbey and the Tower of London yesterday.
In the Abbey there is NO translation of the Latin inscription on THAT urn of
pigs and other bones, NOR is there any placard from the Richard the Third
Society offering the truth/alternative version of events.
Outside the Tower of London (I¹m sure we all know about inside there is the
libel of James Tyrell and Richard on the wall of the Garden/Bloody Tower,
and the slander of the Yeomen guides) there is a huge piece of placarding
that surrounds a work area, probably building an audio visual centre but
don¹t know for certain.
On this placard we have a ³history² of the Tower.
The 15th Century section has the following:-
TOWER FACT
George, Duke of Clarence, is executed in 1478 by drowning in a butt of
Madeira, and next to this is another FACT
nest to this with a copy of the Millais painting of the ³princes² is the
following:-
In 1483 the ŒPrinces in the Tower¹, the 12 year old Prince Edward and his
brother Richard, are murdered .... their bodies hidden until they are
discovered in the White Tower in 1674.
At least Richard isn¹t mentioned as responsible for both or either. But as
the Yeomen of the Guard still blame him in their guided tour spiel, it is
clear we still have a long way to go.
And to get into the Abbey costs 6UKP and the Tower now costs an outrageous
13.50UKP! With no concessions for Londoners at either place.
Paul
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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Re: Abbey and Tower
2003-07-17 15:10:15
Neil T wrote: And if Paul would like to refresh his
memory further, he can visit the Society website
www.richardiii.net and go to the 'What's new' page,
which can be accessed on the top tool bar. A copy of
the letter can be found mid-way down the page.
***
I read that letter earlier this year.
I've been thinking about other ways to demonstrate
that the bones and the chest they were found in were
not put there in the 15th century.
Even if this could be convincingly demonstrated,
someone will need to publicize it in a way that will
get through to people.
It's good to read about courses that encourage
students to learn about all sides of the conflict and
to question the Tudor version. I hope these courses
are reaching lots of students. But there are many
people that these courses will never reach.
I agree with Paul. It's depressing that the sites
most people will visit only once are still telling the
Tudor version.
The guidebook statement mentioned in Westminster's
reply shows that the Tudor version is open to
question. But it seems to me that a tour guide's talk
would make a stronger impression on many visitors. If
I ever get the chance to visit, and the tour guides
haven't upgraded their talks, I'll ask why they aren't
giving a more balanced version.
Marion
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memory further, he can visit the Society website
www.richardiii.net and go to the 'What's new' page,
which can be accessed on the top tool bar. A copy of
the letter can be found mid-way down the page.
***
I read that letter earlier this year.
I've been thinking about other ways to demonstrate
that the bones and the chest they were found in were
not put there in the 15th century.
Even if this could be convincingly demonstrated,
someone will need to publicize it in a way that will
get through to people.
It's good to read about courses that encourage
students to learn about all sides of the conflict and
to question the Tudor version. I hope these courses
are reaching lots of students. But there are many
people that these courses will never reach.
I agree with Paul. It's depressing that the sites
most people will visit only once are still telling the
Tudor version.
The guidebook statement mentioned in Westminster's
reply shows that the Tudor version is open to
question. But it seems to me that a tour guide's talk
would make a stronger impression on many visitors. If
I ever get the chance to visit, and the tour guides
haven't upgraded their talks, I'll ask why they aren't
giving a more balanced version.
Marion
________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Abbey and Tower
2003-07-17 16:34:50
> From: marion cheatham <marion_cheatham@...>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:57:52 +0100 (BST)
> To:
> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>
> Cannot agree with the throw away comment about the cost to
> Londoners - we all should pay the same regardless - (please do
> not kill file me for having an alternative view Paul as I find your
> comments on many things very interesting and informative
Now why would I do that? You havenŒt betrayed a confidence as some one did
recently.
I do feel strongly about historical buildings in London giving a concession
to people who have lived here all their lives, in the same way that I woudl
not charge for entry to the Prado in Madrid for madrileños.
Thank you also for your comments on my comments Marion.
My best
Paul
> Reply-To:
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 13:57:52 +0100 (BST)
> To:
> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>
> Cannot agree with the throw away comment about the cost to
> Londoners - we all should pay the same regardless - (please do
> not kill file me for having an alternative view Paul as I find your
> comments on many things very interesting and informative
Now why would I do that? You havenŒt betrayed a confidence as some one did
recently.
I do feel strongly about historical buildings in London giving a concession
to people who have lived here all their lives, in the same way that I woudl
not charge for entry to the Prado in Madrid for madrileños.
Thank you also for your comments on my comments Marion.
My best
Paul
Re: Abbey and Tower
2003-07-17 18:57:49
>
> It's good to read about courses that encourage
> students to learn about all sides of the conflict and
> to question the Tudor version. I hope these courses
> are reaching lots of students. But there are many
> people that these courses will never reach.
>
> I agree with Paul. It's depressing that the sites
> most people will visit only once are still telling the
> Tudor version.
>
> The guidebook statement mentioned in Westminster's
> reply shows that the Tudor version is open to
> question. But it seems to me that a tour guide's talk
> would make a stronger impression on many visitors. If
> I ever get the chance to visit, and the tour guides
> haven't upgraded their talks, I'll ask why they aren't
> giving a more balanced version.
>
> Marion
>
>
I do my bit in the classroom, but the tourists will, as you say,
only get what the guides say, and I agree that it is deplorable that
they are so one-sided. Having said that, in many cases the one sided
view may make the more interesting tale - after all, the Tower aims
to shock with the gruesome history, and amurder of innocent booys
bvy nasty uncle is more thrilling than unknown death by unknown
killer/illness or even no known fate at all. I think that there
ought to be some kind of law (it'll never happen!) that insists
documentaries and spiels like this MUST give both sides! One can
dream, I suppose...
I also think the idea of discounts for locals is a bit crazy. For
the elderly and students, yes, but I can see no reason wny locals
should get any discount for anything. And I think the prices for
most visits in this country are diabolical. But at least we don't
yet have to pay for trolleys in the airports as some do!
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
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Yahoo!
> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
> It's good to read about courses that encourage
> students to learn about all sides of the conflict and
> to question the Tudor version. I hope these courses
> are reaching lots of students. But there are many
> people that these courses will never reach.
>
> I agree with Paul. It's depressing that the sites
> most people will visit only once are still telling the
> Tudor version.
>
> The guidebook statement mentioned in Westminster's
> reply shows that the Tudor version is open to
> question. But it seems to me that a tour guide's talk
> would make a stronger impression on many visitors. If
> I ever get the chance to visit, and the tour guides
> haven't upgraded their talks, I'll ask why they aren't
> giving a more balanced version.
>
> Marion
>
>
I do my bit in the classroom, but the tourists will, as you say,
only get what the guides say, and I agree that it is deplorable that
they are so one-sided. Having said that, in many cases the one sided
view may make the more interesting tale - after all, the Tower aims
to shock with the gruesome history, and amurder of innocent booys
bvy nasty uncle is more thrilling than unknown death by unknown
killer/illness or even no known fate at all. I think that there
ought to be some kind of law (it'll never happen!) that insists
documentaries and spiels like this MUST give both sides! One can
dream, I suppose...
I also think the idea of discounts for locals is a bit crazy. For
the elderly and students, yes, but I can see no reason wny locals
should get any discount for anything. And I think the prices for
most visits in this country are diabolical. But at least we don't
yet have to pay for trolleys in the airports as some do!
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
Yahoo!
> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Abbey and Tower
2003-07-17 19:51:31
> From: "brunhild613" <brunhild613@...>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:57:36 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>
> the Tower aims
> to shock with the gruesome history, and amurder of innocent booys
> bvy nasty uncle is more thrilling than unknown death
Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter Ad Vincula
didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that out of the
over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only 102 had been
executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war time. He
said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So maybe there is
a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian accent which
may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
Paul
> Reply-To:
> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:57:36 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>
> the Tower aims
> to shock with the gruesome history, and amurder of innocent booys
> bvy nasty uncle is more thrilling than unknown death
Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter Ad Vincula
didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that out of the
over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only 102 had been
executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war time. He
said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So maybe there is
a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian accent which
may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
Paul
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Abbey and Tower
2003-07-18 17:59:12
--- In , "P.T.Bale"
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
>
> > From: "brunhild613" <brunhild613@y...>
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:57:36 -0000
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
> >
> > the Tower aims
> > to shock with the gruesome history, and amurder of innocent
booys
> > bvy nasty uncle is more thrilling than unknown death
>
> Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter
Ad Vincula
> didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that
out of the
> over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only 102
had been
> executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war
time. He
> said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So
maybe there is
> a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian
accent which
> may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
> Paul
I am not sure I understood your point here. Why should he want to
dive under the altar? How is his attitude more liberal? I really
didn't understand this one at all, sorry.
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
>
> > From: "brunhild613" <brunhild613@y...>
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:57:36 -0000
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
> >
> > the Tower aims
> > to shock with the gruesome history, and amurder of innocent
booys
> > bvy nasty uncle is more thrilling than unknown death
>
> Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter
Ad Vincula
> didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that
out of the
> over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only 102
had been
> executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war
time. He
> said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So
maybe there is
> a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian
accent which
> may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
> Paul
I am not sure I understood your point here. Why should he want to
dive under the altar? How is his attitude more liberal? I really
didn't understand this one at all, sorry.
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Abbey and Tower
2003-07-19 01:45:20
--- In , "P.T.Bale"
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter Ad
Vincula
> didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that
out of the
> over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only
102
had been
> executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war
time. He
> said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So maybe
there is
> a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian
accent which
> may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
> Paul
On behalf of the Aussies on this forum I must say "OY"!!!!!!!! :))
I don't come out of lurk mode very often but I would like to tell
everyone that reading the thoughts and opinions of the people in the
group is great. I have learnt a lot.
regards
Beth
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter Ad
Vincula
> didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that
out of the
> over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only
102
had been
> executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war
time. He
> said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So maybe
there is
> a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian
accent which
> may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
> Paul
On behalf of the Aussies on this forum I must say "OY"!!!!!!!! :))
I don't come out of lurk mode very often but I would like to tell
everyone that reading the thoughts and opinions of the people in the
group is great. I have learnt a lot.
regards
Beth
Abbey and Tower
2003-07-19 01:58:11
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I didn't get the reference to "hi, to
Anne Boleyn" either.
I'm Australian but I don't know whether we would be any more liberal
about these matters or not. On the other hand each state does have
their own Richard 111 Society, I belong to the Victorian one.
Anne Boleyn" either.
I'm Australian but I don't know whether we would be any more liberal
about these matters or not. On the other hand each state does have
their own Richard 111 Society, I belong to the Victorian one.
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Abbey and Tower
2003-07-19 13:47:53
> From: "brunhild613" <brunhild613@...>
>>> From: "brunhild613" <brunhild613@y...>
>>> Reply-To:
>>> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:57:36 -0000
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>>
>> Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter
> Ad Vincula
>> didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that
> out of the
>> over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only 102
> had been
>> executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war
> time. He
>> said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So
> maybe there is
>> a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian
> accent which
>> may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
>> Paul
>
> I am not sure I understood your point here. Why should he want to
> dive under the altar?
Watching the visitors didn¹t dive under the altar. Not the Yeoman! I would
have loved to say hi to Anne. More humour misunderstood by people who speak
the same language!<g>
>How is his attitude more liberal? I really
> didn't understand this one at all, sorry.
By saying the part about how out of 8000 prisoners only just 102 were
executed. That implies it is no longer just a place of death and torture.
Seemed clear to me. Sorry you didn¹t get it.
Paul
>>> From: "brunhild613" <brunhild613@y...>
>>> Reply-To:
>>> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 17:57:36 -0000
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>>
>> Oddly enough the Yeoman warder watching the visitors to St Peter
> Ad Vincula
>> didn¹t dive under the altar to say hi to Anne Boleyn offered that
> out of the
>> over 8000 prisoners held at the Tower during it¹s history only 102
> had been
>> executed, including the 16 shot during the last century during war
> time. He
>> said he was going to work out what a percentage that made. So
> maybe there is
>> a shift in there somewhere. Mind you he did have an Australian
> accent which
>> may explain his more liberal attitude!<g>
>> Paul
>
> I am not sure I understood your point here. Why should he want to
> dive under the altar?
Watching the visitors didn¹t dive under the altar. Not the Yeoman! I would
have loved to say hi to Anne. More humour misunderstood by people who speak
the same language!<g>
>How is his attitude more liberal? I really
> didn't understand this one at all, sorry.
By saying the part about how out of 8000 prisoners only just 102 were
executed. That implies it is no longer just a place of death and torture.
Seemed clear to me. Sorry you didn¹t get it.
Paul
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Abbey and Tower
2003-07-19 14:09:52
> From: "Beth" <ozsomerset@...>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:45:16 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>
> On behalf of the Aussies on this forum I must say "OY"!!!!!!!! :))
Is this a criticism, or praise, for saying how refreshing a different
opinion as expressed by an Australian is?
Paul
> Reply-To:
> Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 00:45:16 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Abbey and Tower
>
> On behalf of the Aussies on this forum I must say "OY"!!!!!!!! :))
Is this a criticism, or praise, for saying how refreshing a different
opinion as expressed by an Australian is?
Paul
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