Richard before Bosworth

Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters  "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death". 
 
I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
 
Liz
 
Liz

Liz, I just saw the comment. I am not even what this person means...... Does she mean that Richard did not give his followers enough time to get ready for the battle? Or the charge? I am afraid to engage with anyone right now. Everyone seems to be so edgy these days.




________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:25 PM
Subject: Richard before Bosworth


 
Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters  "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death". 
 
I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
 
Liz
 
Liz

I think it's meant to be an example of Richard's "conduct" during his time as King, whatever the heck that is supposed to mean.    As I said it sounds like at best a misinterpretation of something this person has read.



________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 21:40
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth

 
Liz, I just saw the comment. I am not even what this person means...... Does she mean that Richard did not give his followers enough time to get ready for the battle? Or the charge? I am afraid to engage with anyone right now. Everyone seems to be so edgy these days.

________________________________
From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:25 PM
Subject: Richard before Bosworth


 
Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters  "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death". 
 
I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
 
Liz
 
Liz

I know we do have Richard's summonses for his troops. I think they're probably standard wording for such a situation, but I'll see if I can find time to look them up, and look for similar things issued before other battles.
Marie

--- In , liz williams wrote:
>
> I think it's meant to be an example of Richard's "conduct" during his time as King, whatever the heck that is supposed to mean.    As I said it sounds like at best a misinterpretation of something this person has read.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo
> To: ""
> Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 21:40
> Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth
>
>  
> Liz, I just saw the comment. I am not even what this person means...... Does she mean that Richard did not give his followers enough time to get ready for the battle? Or the charge? I am afraid to engage with anyone right now. Everyone seems to be so edgy these days.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:25 PM
> Subject: Richard before Bosworth
>
>
>  
> Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters  "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death". 
>  
> I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
>  
> Liz
>  
> Liz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks Marie - or if it's somewhere I can look it up, just point me in the right direction.
 
Liz


________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 21:54
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth

 
I know we do have Richard's summonses for his troops. I think they're probably standard wording for such a situation, but I'll see if I can find time to look them up, and look for similar things issued before other battles.
Marie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams wrote:
>
> I think it's meant to be an example of Richard's "conduct" during his time as King, whatever the heck that is supposed to mean.    As I said it sounds like at best a misinterpretation of something this person has read.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 21:40
> Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth
>
>  
> Liz, I just saw the comment. I am not even what this person means...... Does she mean that Richard did not give his followers enough time to get ready for the battle? Or the charge? I am afraid to engage with anyone right now. Everyone seems to be so edgy these days.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:25 PM
> Subject: Richard before Bosworth
>
>
>  
> Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters  "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death". 
>  
> I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
>  
> Liz
>  
> Liz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Someone's said this is something in the Paston letters?



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 21:55
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth

 
Thanks Marie - or if it's somewhere I can look it up, just point me in the right direction.
 
Liz

________________________________
From: mariewalsh2003 mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com>
To: mailto:%40yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 21:54
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth

 
I know we do have Richard's summonses for his troops. I think they're probably standard wording for such a situation, but I'll see if I can find time to look them up, and look for similar things issued before other battles.
Marie

--- In mailto:%40yahoogroups.com, liz williams wrote:
>
> I think it's meant to be an example of Richard's "conduct" during his time as King, whatever the heck that is supposed to mean.    As I said it sounds like at best a misinterpretation of something this person has read.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ishita Bandyo
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Monday, 11 February 2013, 21:40
> Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth
>
>  
> Liz, I just saw the comment. I am not even what this person means...... Does she mean that Richard did not give his followers enough time to get ready for the battle? Or the charge? I am afraid to engage with anyone right now. Everyone seems to be so edgy these days.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com>
> To: "mailto:%40yahoogroups.com" mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:25 PM
> Subject: Richard before Bosworth
>
>
>  
> Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters  "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death". 
>  
> I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
>  
> Liz
>  
> Liz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ishita

I believe that Marie has asked for further information as to source so until that arrives it's a supposition

PS I know you're not a Tudor spy you can't look anything like Francis Walsingham

G



From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:41 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth





Liz, I just saw the comment. I am not even what this person means...... Does she mean that Richard did not give his followers enough time to get ready for the battle? Or the charge? I am afraid to engage with anyone right now. Everyone seems to be so edgy these days.

________________________________
From: liz williams ferrymansdaughter@... <mailto:ferrymansdaughter%40btinternet.com> >
To: " <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> " <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:25 PM
Subject: Richard before Bosworth



Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death".

I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)

Liz

Liz

Nah, I am just a tad better looking..... On my better days:)





________________________________
From: George Butterfield <gbutterf1@...>
To:
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: Richard before Bosworth


 
Ishita

I believe that Marie has asked for further information as to source so until that arrives it's a supposition

PS I know you're not a Tudor spy you can't look anything like Francis Walsingham

G

From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Ishita Bandyo
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:41 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth

Liz, I just saw the comment. I am not even what this person means...... Does she mean that Richard did not give his followers enough time to get ready for the battle? Or the charge? I am afraid to engage with anyone right now. Everyone seems to be so edgy these days.

________________________________
From: liz williams ferrymansdaughter@... >
To: " " >
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 4:25 PM
Subject: Richard before Bosworth

Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of death".

I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a change)

Liz

Liz

I'm going to apologize in advance for once again focusing on the scoliosis angle
here (though at least without any speculation on Richard's sex life this time)-
I've been dwelling on this a lot lately, just because I think it'd actually
explain a lot, but here goes nothing:

I kind of have been wondering if any of the momentary lapses in judgment/his
usually fairly calm-seeming behavior in the last few years of Richard's life
could actually be tied to his scoliosis. There is a potential physiological link
there- stress raises adrenaline levels, adrenaline hastens the heartbeat and
breath, and depending on how his spine affected pressure on his heart and lungs,
that could easily lead to decreased oxygenation, light-headedness, and clouding
his thinking. (This isn't just an interpretation I've reserved for him, either-
Alexander the Great's was probably considerably worse, to the point of affecting
the set of his neck, and between that, his likely epilepsy and the drinking, a
lot of Alexander's increasingly less focused episodes toward the end of his own
life, of almost exactly the same duration as Richard's, could be similarly
explained.)

So, if this were true, I think this would be easily attributable to that kind of
thing. Stressors and bad physiological effects can really mess with one's
clarity of thought and temper.



________________________________
From: liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...>
To: ""
<>
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 4:25:35 PM
Subject: Richard before Bosworth


Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before
Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly giving them
less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of
death".


I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds
like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this
could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or
is someone just making stuff up (for a change)

Liz

Liz

Megan, we know so little about so many things that all we can do is speculate. Don't apologize for your thoughts........I truly hope they do a thorough examination of the spine so we know for sure how he fared in terms of his day to day life. Maybe our friends who are attending the conference can relay some of Weds question and suggestions?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 7:19 PM, Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@...> wrote:

> I'm going to apologize in advance for once again focusing on the scoliosis angle
> here (though at least without any speculation on Richard's sex life this time)-
> I've been dwelling on this a lot lately, just because I think it'd actually
> explain a lot, but here goes nothing:
>
> I kind of have been wondering if any of the momentary lapses in judgment/his
> usually fairly calm-seeming behavior in the last few years of Richard's life
> could actually be tied to his scoliosis. There is a potential physiological link
> there- stress raises adrenaline levels, adrenaline hastens the heartbeat and
> breath, and depending on how his spine affected pressure on his heart and lungs,
> that could easily lead to decreased oxygenation, light-headedness, and clouding
> his thinking. (This isn't just an interpretation I've reserved for him, either-
> Alexander the Great's was probably considerably worse, to the point of affecting
> the set of his neck, and between that, his likely epilepsy and the drinking, a
> lot of Alexander's increasingly less focused episodes toward the end of his own
> life, of almost exactly the same duration as Richard's, could be similarly
> explained.)
>
> So, if this were true, I think this would be easily attributable to that kind of
> thing. Stressors and bad physiological effects can really mess with one's
> clarity of thought and temper.
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams ferrymansdaughter@...>
> To: ""
> >
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 4:25:35 PM
> Subject: Richard before Bosworth
>
> Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before
> Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly giving them
> less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of
> death".
>
> I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds
> like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this
> could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or
> is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
>
> Liz
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sorry, Megan, I'm afraid I don't buy it. I have a medical condition myself which causes chronic pain and brainfog - and has affected the set of my neck. It absolutely doesn't raise my adrenalin levels (if only!), and no one else I know, and have known, with chroinc pain is affected in the way you describe. Can make you irritable, and less inclined to get stuck in rather than more. I would say Alexander's drinking would have been more to blame for his extreme behaviour than any spinal condition.
If you're looking for psychological stressors that may have affected Richard's behaviour at Bosworth, I should have thought the deaths of his wife and son, coupled with rumours he had poisoned his wife to marry his niece, would have been the things that really messed with his head.
Marie


--- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> I'm going to apologize in advance for once again focusing on the scoliosis angle
> here (though at least without any speculation on Richard's sex life this time)-
> I've been dwelling on this a lot lately, just because I think it'd actually
> explain a lot, but here goes nothing:
>
> I kind of have been wondering if any of the momentary lapses in judgment/his
> usually fairly calm-seeming behavior in the last few years of Richard's life
> could actually be tied to his scoliosis. There is a potential physiological link
> there- stress raises adrenaline levels, adrenaline hastens the heartbeat and
> breath, and depending on how his spine affected pressure on his heart and lungs,
> that could easily lead to decreased oxygenation, light-headedness, and clouding
> his thinking. (This isn't just an interpretation I've reserved for him, either-
> Alexander the Great's was probably considerably worse, to the point of affecting
> the set of his neck, and between that, his likely epilepsy and the drinking, a
> lot of Alexander's increasingly less focused episodes toward the end of his own
> life, of almost exactly the same duration as Richard's, could be similarly
> explained.)
>
> So, if this were true, I think this would be easily attributable to that kind of
> thing. Stressors and bad physiological effects can really mess with one's
> clarity of thought and temper.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams
> To: ""
>
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 4:25:35 PM
> Subject: Richard before Bosworth
>
>
> Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before
> Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly giving them
> less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of
> death".
>
>
> I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds
> like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this
> could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or
> is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
>
> Liz
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Not to mention the fact that he was defending his Kingdom, against a man who seemed to be an usurper. That would stir my stress levels a whole lot.
Also, I now do not remember who mentioned the heavy handed removal of the remains. I have has an opportunity to see archeologists work here, at our Historic Missions (yes, mere babies, built in the 1700's). However, they use tiny trowels, all kinds of brushes, and take infinite care with every inch being examined or excavated. I wonder if anyone will question Dr. Appleby's methodology?

On Feb 11, 2013, at 6:43 PM, "mariewalsh2003" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



Sorry, Megan, I'm afraid I don't buy it. I have a medical condition myself which causes chronic pain and brainfog - and has affected the set of my neck. It absolutely doesn't raise my adrenalin levels (if only!), and no one else I know, and have known, with chroinc pain is affected in the way you describe. Can make you irritable, and less inclined to get stuck in rather than more. I would say Alexander's drinking would have been more to blame for his extreme behaviour than any spinal condition.
If you're looking for psychological stressors that may have affected Richard's behaviour at Bosworth, I should have thought the deaths of his wife and son, coupled with rumours he had poisoned his wife to marry his niece, would have been the things that really messed with his head.
Marie

--- In <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> I'm going to apologize in advance for once again focusing on the scoliosis angle
> here (though at least without any speculation on Richard's sex life this time)-
> I've been dwelling on this a lot lately, just because I think it'd actually
> explain a lot, but here goes nothing:
>
> I kind of have been wondering if any of the momentary lapses in judgment/his
> usually fairly calm-seeming behavior in the last few years of Richard's life
> could actually be tied to his scoliosis. There is a potential physiological link
> there- stress raises adrenaline levels, adrenaline hastens the heartbeat and
> breath, and depending on how his spine affected pressure on his heart and lungs,
> that could easily lead to decreased oxygenation, light-headedness, and clouding
> his thinking. (This isn't just an interpretation I've reserved for him, either-
> Alexander the Great's was probably considerably worse, to the point of affecting
> the set of his neck, and between that, his likely epilepsy and the drinking, a
> lot of Alexander's increasingly less focused episodes toward the end of his own
> life, of almost exactly the same duration as Richard's, could be similarly
> explained.)
>
> So, if this were true, I think this would be easily attributable to that kind of
> thing. Stressors and bad physiological effects can really mess with one's
> clarity of thought and temper.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams
> To: "<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>"
>
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 4:25:35 PM
> Subject: Richard before Bosworth
>
>
> Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before
> Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly giving them
> less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of
> death".
>
>
> I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds
> like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this
> could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or
> is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
>
> Liz
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I agree with you Marie, that the prior events leading up to Bosworth would have done little to make Richard take long drawn out decisions he was #%^%#^ at the gall of Edward and I believe saw an opportunity and charged.........he could have so easily won...... But.
George


Sent from my iPad

On Feb 11, 2013, at 7:43 PM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Sorry, Megan, I'm afraid I don't buy it. I have a medical condition myself which causes chronic pain and brainfog - and has affected the set of my neck. It absolutely doesn't raise my adrenalin levels (if only!), and no one else I know, and have known, with chroinc pain is affected in the way you describe. Can make you irritable, and less inclined to get stuck in rather than more. I would say Alexander's drinking would have been more to blame for his extreme behaviour than any spinal condition.
> If you're looking for psychological stressors that may have affected Richard's behaviour at Bosworth, I should have thought the deaths of his wife and son, coupled with rumours he had poisoned his wife to marry his niece, would have been the things that really messed with his head.
> Marie
>
> --- In , Megan Lerseth wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to apologize in advance for once again focusing on the scoliosis angle
> > here (though at least without any speculation on Richard's sex life this time)-
> > I've been dwelling on this a lot lately, just because I think it'd actually
> > explain a lot, but here goes nothing:
> >
> > I kind of have been wondering if any of the momentary lapses in judgment/his
> > usually fairly calm-seeming behavior in the last few years of Richard's life
> > could actually be tied to his scoliosis. There is a potential physiological link
> > there- stress raises adrenaline levels, adrenaline hastens the heartbeat and
> > breath, and depending on how his spine affected pressure on his heart and lungs,
> > that could easily lead to decreased oxygenation, light-headedness, and clouding
> > his thinking. (This isn't just an interpretation I've reserved for him, either-
> > Alexander the Great's was probably considerably worse, to the point of affecting
> > the set of his neck, and between that, his likely epilepsy and the drinking, a
> > lot of Alexander's increasingly less focused episodes toward the end of his own
> > life, of almost exactly the same duration as Richard's, could be similarly
> > explained.)
> >
> > So, if this were true, I think this would be easily attributable to that kind of
> > thing. Stressors and bad physiological effects can really mess with one's
> > clarity of thought and temper.
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: liz williams
> > To: ""
> >
> > Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 4:25:35 PM
> > Subject: Richard before Bosworth
> >
> >
> > Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour before
> > Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly giving them
> > less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in an hour under pain of
> > death".
> >
> >
> > I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before. It sounds
> > like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have any idea if this
> > could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or not), a misinterpretation or
> > is someone just making stuff up (for a change)
> >
> > Liz
> >
> > Liz
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Re Richard's scoliosis, we really don't know how disabled he might or might not have been, but there are a number of studies currently promoting a conservative approach to the treatment of scoliosis, i.e., exercise. I think we at least need to consider that Richard's training as a knight beginning at an early age and daily physical activities may have caused him to be less disabled than he might have been had he led a sedentary life. An interesting article by Martha C. Hawes (Pediatric Rehabilitation, Vol. 6 No. 3-4, 171-182) notes the following:

"A growing body of evidence from independent sources is consistent with the hypothesis that exercise-based approaches can be used effectively to reverse the signs and symptoms of spinal deformity and to prevent progression in children and adults... Irrespective of the inciting trigger that causes a spinal curvature to develop, removing the resultant asymmetric gravity loading by restoring postural balance can improve signs and symptoms of scoliosis even after it has progressed to being a fixed spinal deformity [134, 145, 149]. If the asymmetric loading is removed before growth is complete, before too much time has passed, the spinal deformity can be completely eliminated [134, 144, 145, 148, 149]. In moderately severe curvatures in the range which warrants surgical intervention, the loss of spinal flexibility which defines a curvature as a spinal deformity can be reversed by more than 30% in response to treatment consisting of exercises performed daily... A small body of clinical and basic research now supports the hypothesis that exercise-based therapies can be used to reverse the signs and symptoms of scoliosis in children and adults [100, 127ý134, 145, 147, 148, 154ý163, 166ý168]. Conversely, there does not appear to be a single study supporting the dogma that scoliosis will not respond to exercise-based therapies applied early in the disease process."

Thanks Marie - or if it's somewhere I can look it up, just point me in the right direction.

Carol responds;

If you're interested, you can see whether Vergil or the Croyland Chronicle says anything that might be interpreted in that way. Bear in mind that neither was at the battle and most of what they say is either false or questionable (except Vergil's description of Richard's last stand, which is certainly more accurate than Croyland's). You can find both works on the American Richard III Society site.

Vergil: http://www.r3.org/bookcase/polydore.html The relevant portion starts with "But Richerd in the meantime" right before page 219. I don't know what you're looking for, so I'm just providing a possible place to look.

Croyland (relevant pages): http://www.r3.org/bookcase/croyland/croy9.html

There are other hostile accounts, such as "The Ballad of Lady Bessy," but surely, no one would consider them sources.

At any rate, the branch's online library has many useful sources, which you can read online at http://www.r3.org/bookcase/index.html

Carol

I think it's the erstwhile nursing student in me talking- I couldn't handle the
working with cadavers, and I ended up leaving hands-on medical stuff (though I'm
going into medical transcription soon), but the interest in the field stuck.

(I do find the coincidental Alexander parallels an interesting point of trivia,
especially with how Alexander is, imho, remembered far more positively than he
deserves, and meanwhile poor Richard is so vilified.)




________________________________
From: Ishita Bandyo <bandyoi@...>
To: ""
<>
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 7:29:11 PM
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth


Megan, we know so little about so many things that all we can do is speculate.
Don't apologize for your thoughts........I truly hope they do a thorough
examination of the spine so we know for sure how he fared in terms of his day to
day life. Maybe our friends who are attending the conference can relay some of
Weds question and suggestions?

Sent from my iPad
.

Megan Lerseth wrote:
[snip]
> I kind of have been wondering if any of the momentary lapses in judgment/his usually fairly calm-seeming behavior in the last few years of Richard's life could actually be tied to his scoliosis. There is a potential physiological link there- stress raises adrenaline levels, adrenaline hastens the heartbeat and
> breath, and depending on how his spine affected pressure on his heart and lungs, that could easily lead to decreased oxygenation, light-headedness, and clouding his thinking. (This isn't just an interpretation I've reserved for him, either- Alexander the Great's was probably considerably worse, to the point of affecting
> the set of his neck, and between that, his likely epilepsy and the drinking, a lot of Alexander's increasingly less focused episodes toward the end of his own life, of almost exactly the same duration as Richard's, could be similarly explained.) [snip]

Carol responds:

Extremely interesting. I don't want to jump to conclusions and say that this explanation could account for the execution of Hastings or the charge at Bosworth, but they certainly do deviate from his normal pattern and this idea is probably worth exploring (but not by me). I still think that the descriptions of Richard in his lifetime and his active lifestyle show that his disability was not clearly visible to others (at least not before his stripped body was displayed) and even then much greater propaganda use would have been made of it if the disparity were marked. That's not to say that I don't think what you're saying here is interesting. By all means, provide some links for us. I was unaware that Alexander the Great had scoliosis (next time someone labels Richard a hunchback, perhaps we should throw in that little detail), but I did find this:

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/1/6

If you click on the thumbnail of the statue, you can see an enlargement. If this is what Richard looked like shirtless (and he was the same age as Alexander when he died), the scoliosis really would not have been obvious and the disparity in the shoulders not all that marked, certainly not visible in clothing. (The right arm of the statue appears to be missing, so we don't have a whole picture, but it does look anatomically accurate otherwise.)

You may have mentioned this already, but I don't recall it. Do you think that his armor would have served as a back brace? It does appear that the exercise helped him; Lin Foxhall said that he was active and strong.

I do think that it would be a very good idea to have an upright replica of the skeleton since the curvature might have been less when he was standing than when he was lying down. I really do find Jo Appleby's suggestion that it would have made him a whole foot shorter both disturbing and absurd.

Anyway, as I said, I've never heard before that Alexander the Great had scoliosis. I guess that's because his successors were too busy fighting with each other to exaggerate his deficiencies into a hunchback. The Greeks (and, yes, I realize that he actually Macedonian) despised physical weakness and deformity, but maybe in Alexander it didn't matter. Or maybe they admired him for overcoming it. I don't recall their associating ugliness with evil in quite the same way that fifteenth-century Englishmen did.

Carol

Alexander was actually quite riddled with physical abnormalities by the
standards of his time- epilepsy, scoliosis, heterochromia, unable to grow much
of a beard. It seems mostly down to his face having been symmetrical and
pleasant enough and the fact that he had, by most accounts, thick and wavy blond
hair (which he shaved off when Hephaestion died, which was seen as a
particularly large sacrifice from him), that made him attractive enough to go
down in history as handsome.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/AlexanderTheGreat_Bust.jpg/220px-AlexanderTheGreat_Bust.jpg


But yeah, the implied set of his shoulders there isn't artistic license; that's
reportedly how Alexander's shoulders were actually shaped, and most of the time
he had to look down toward his nose to see anything before him because his neck
was crooked too. Apparently he was already inclined toward drink, but became
fully alcoholic toward the end of his life thanks to both stress and his body
being in constant pain, but to be fair he did live a lot harder than Richard
did.

I'm not certain, but I think most armor, even for someone without any abnormal
physical conditions, had a bit of back support built in. If you're going to ride
around in a tight-fitting tin can, it might as well keep you upright.



________________________________
From: justcarol67 <justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 11:22:46 PM
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth



Carol responds:

Extremely interesting. I don't want to jump to conclusions and say that this
explanation could account for the execution of Hastings or the charge at
Bosworth, but they certainly do deviate from his normal pattern and this idea is
probably worth exploring (but not by me). I still think that the descriptions of
Richard in his lifetime and his active lifestyle show that his disability was
not clearly visible to others (at least not before his stripped body was
displayed) and even then much greater propaganda use would have been made of it
if the disparity were marked. That's not to say that I don't think what you're
saying here is interesting. By all means, provide some links for us. I was
unaware that Alexander the Great had scoliosis (next time someone labels Richard
a hunchback, perhaps we should throw in that little detail), but I did find
this:

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/1/6

If you click on the thumbnail of the statue, you can see an enlargement. If this
is what Richard looked like shirtless (and he was the same age as Alexander when
he died), the scoliosis really would not have been obvious and the disparity in
the shoulders not all that marked, certainly not visible in clothing. (The right
arm of the statue appears to be missing, so we don't have a whole picture, but
it does look anatomically accurate otherwise.)

You may have mentioned this already, but I don't recall it. Do you think that
his armor would have served as a back brace? It does appear that the exercise
helped him; Lin Foxhall said that he was active and strong.


I do think that it would be a very good idea to have an upright replica of the
skeleton since the curvature might have been less when he was standing than when
he was lying down. I really do find Jo Appleby's suggestion that it would have
made him a whole foot shorter both disturbing and absurd.

Anyway, as I said, I've never heard before that Alexander the Great had
scoliosis. I guess that's because his successors were too busy fighting with
each other to exaggerate his deficiencies into a hunchback. The Greeks (and,
yes, I realize that he actually Macedonian) despised physical weakness and
deformity, but maybe in Alexander it didn't matter. Or maybe they admired him
for overcoming it. I don't recall their associating ugliness with evil in quite
the same way that fifteenth-century Englishmen did.

Carol

Lived harder in the sense of more partying, more self-indulgence, etc., not "had
a harder life."




________________________________
From: Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 11:51:48 PM
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth


Alexander was actually quite riddled with physical abnormalities by the
standards of his time- epilepsy, scoliosis, heterochromia, unable to grow much
of a beard. It seems mostly down to his face having been symmetrical and
pleasant enough and the fact that he had, by most accounts, thick and wavy blond

hair (which he shaved off when Hephaestion died, which was seen as a
particularly large sacrifice from him), that made him attractive enough to go
down in history as handsome.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/AlexanderTheGreat_Bust.jpg/220px-AlexanderTheGreat_Bust.jpg


But yeah, the implied set of his shoulders there isn't artistic license; that's
reportedly how Alexander's shoulders were actually shaped, and most of the time
he had to look down toward his nose to see anything before him because his neck
was crooked too. Apparently he was already inclined toward drink, but became
fully alcoholic toward the end of his life thanks to both stress and his body
being in constant pain, but to be fair he did live a lot harder than Richard
did.

I'm not certain, but I think most armor, even for someone without any abnormal
physical conditions, had a bit of back support built in. If you're going to ride

around in a tight-fitting tin can, it might as well keep you upright.

________________________________
From: justcarol67 justcarol67@...>
To:
Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 11:22:46 PM
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth

Carol responds:

Extremely interesting. I don't want to jump to conclusions and say that this
explanation could account for the execution of Hastings or the charge at
Bosworth, but they certainly do deviate from his normal pattern and this idea is

probably worth exploring (but not by me). I still think that the descriptions of

Richard in his lifetime and his active lifestyle show that his disability was
not clearly visible to others (at least not before his stripped body was
displayed) and even then much greater propaganda use would have been made of it
if the disparity were marked. That's not to say that I don't think what you're
saying here is interesting. By all means, provide some links for us. I was
unaware that Alexander the Great had scoliosis (next time someone labels Richard

a hunchback, perhaps we should throw in that little detail), but I did find
this:

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/1/6

If you click on the thumbnail of the statue, you can see an enlargement. If this

is what Richard looked like shirtless (and he was the same age as Alexander when

he died), the scoliosis really would not have been obvious and the disparity in
the shoulders not all that marked, certainly not visible in clothing. (The right

arm of the statue appears to be missing, so we don't have a whole picture, but
it does look anatomically accurate otherwise.)

You may have mentioned this already, but I don't recall it. Do you think that
his armor would have served as a back brace? It does appear that the exercise
helped him; Lin Foxhall said that he was active and strong.

I do think that it would be a very good idea to have an upright replica of the
skeleton since the curvature might have been less when he was standing than when

he was lying down. I really do find Jo Appleby's suggestion that it would have
made him a whole foot shorter both disturbing and absurd.

Anyway, as I said, I've never heard before that Alexander the Great had
scoliosis. I guess that's because his successors were too busy fighting with
each other to exaggerate his deficiencies into a hunchback. The Greeks (and,
yes, I realize that he actually Macedonian) despised physical weakness and
deformity, but maybe in Alexander it didn't matter. Or maybe they admired him
for overcoming it. I don't recall their associating ugliness with evil in quite
the same way that fifteenth-century Englishmen did.

Carol

Hi, Pamela -

I brought up Dr. Appleby's technique (or lack thereof) after seeing the C4
documentary. I was looking more specifically for the damage to the skull
that occurred when it was uncovered, because it had previously been briefly
mentioned. In some of the shots where the skeleton had been completely
uncovered, you could see a little scuff mark on the upper left part of the
cranium, but Dr. Appleby had indicated that the damage was not significant.
But I had also noticed in some of the earlier videos there were shots of
Appleby looking at the interior of the skull with the sharp vertical cut,
which I gradually realized indicated that the face had been detached from
the rest of the skull. I wondered what the heck was going on.

Also in some of the video, Appleby was using something that I thought almost
looked like it could have been the missing breastbone to clear the muck from
around the spinal column! (I am sure that can't be the case, but . . .)

I also noticed that it was pretty obvious that there were fresh breaks in
the lower leg bones (the tibias, I think). You could clearly see whiter
portions on the exposed broken surfaces, which I am sure indicate fresh
breaks. That is somewhat understandable, because it was the exposure of the
leg bones that first disclosed that there was a body there.

I can't for the life of me think that there is any excuse for going at
uncovering the skeleton with a mattock, once they knew it was there.
Frankly, I just don't think that the head being out of the expected
alignment was a legitimate excuse for having completely detached the face
from the cranium (not sure of the correct terminology). Merciful Heavens!

The fact that Dr. Appleby was sensitive to what she had done can be seen by
the fact that in distance shots of the skeleton and close-ups of the skull
in situ, the face has been carefully replaced. I also feel, as I previously
mentioned, she is a relative youngster, and I feel her attitude toward
Philippa was in part a defensive reaction. I do have some sympathy for
Appleby, but I think she should work on developing a sense of humility. BTW,
didn't they say the legs were first uncovered by Matthew Somebody? As I
suggested before, they may well have had to call Dr. Appleby in off her
Summer vacation, and she may well have had a bit of a chip on her shoulder
right from the git-go, because she was losing her vacation, and she was
certainly not invested heavily in the project at that point.

I admire Philippa very much for her determination and vision and her
willingness to disclose her "intuition" that Richard was buried under the
Capital "R". I can't help but feel that she was allowing herself to be seen
in many vulnerable moments, for example, when she asked that the box be
covered with Richard's standard and when they first got the report that the
"arrowhead" was actually a nail. In the end, her faith was vindicated. Thank
you, Philippa!

Loyaulte me lie,

Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier

Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...

"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Pamela Bain
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:53 PM
To: <>
Subject: Re: Richard before Bosworth and the
bones

Not to mention the fact that he was defending his Kingdom, against a man who
seemed to be an usurper. That would stir my stress levels a whole lot.
Also, I now do not remember who mentioned the heavy handed removal of the
remains. I have has an opportunity to see archeologists work here, at our
Historic Missions (yes, mere babies, built in the 1700's). However, they use
tiny trowels, all kinds of brushes, and take infinite care with every inch
being examined or excavated. I wonder if anyone will question Dr. Appleby's
methodology?

On Feb 11, 2013, at 6:43 PM, "mariewalsh2003"
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



Sorry, Megan, I'm afraid I don't buy it. I have a medical condition myself
which causes chronic pain and brainfog - and has affected the set of my
neck. It absolutely doesn't raise my adrenalin levels (if only!), and no one
else I know, and have known, with chroinc pain is affected in the way you
describe. Can make you irritable, and less inclined to get stuck in rather
than more. I would say Alexander's drinking would have been more to blame
for his extreme behaviour than any spinal condition.
If you're looking for psychological stressors that may have affected
Richard's behaviour at Bosworth, I should have thought the deaths of his
wife and son, coupled with rumours he had poisoned his wife to marry his
niece, would have been the things that really messed with his head.
Marie

--- In
<mailto:%40yahoo
groups.com>, Megan Lerseth wrote:
>
> I'm going to apologize in advance for once again focusing on the
> scoliosis angle here (though at least without any speculation on
> Richard's sex life this time)- I've been dwelling on this a lot
> lately, just because I think it'd actually explain a lot, but here goes
nothing:
>
> I kind of have been wondering if any of the momentary lapses in
> judgment/his usually fairly calm-seeming behavior in the last few
> years of Richard's life could actually be tied to his scoliosis. There
> is a potential physiological link
> there- stress raises adrenaline levels, adrenaline hastens the
> heartbeat and breath, and depending on how his spine affected pressure
> on his heart and lungs, that could easily lead to decreased
> oxygenation, light-headedness, and clouding his thinking. (This isn't
> just an interpretation I've reserved for him, either- Alexander the
> Great's was probably considerably worse, to the point of affecting the
> set of his neck, and between that, his likely epilepsy and the
> drinking, a lot of Alexander's increasingly less focused episodes
> toward the end of his own life, of almost exactly the same duration as
> Richard's, could be similarly
> explained.)
>
> So, if this were true, I think this would be easily attributable to
> that kind of thing. Stressors and bad physiological effects can really
> mess with one's clarity of thought and temper.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: liz williams
> To:
"<mailto:%40yaho
ogroups.com>"
>
> Sent: Mon, February 11, 2013 4:25:35 PM
> Subject: Richard before Bosworth
>
>
> Someone has just posted on the (our) FB page about Richard's behaviour
> before Bosworth saying that he wrote to his own supporters "repeatedly
> giving them less and less notice to be ready before saying be ready in
> an hour under pain of death".
>
>
> I've asked for a source as I've never heard anything like this before.
> It sounds like a complete load of rubbish to me but does anyone have
> any idea if this could come from a genuine source (anti Richard or
> not), a misinterpretation or is someone just making stuff up (for a
> change)
>
> Liz
>
> Liz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>









------------------------------------

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