3.1 Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)

Certainly postmortem changes would  have been taking effect
by the time Richard was put in the grave.  I am wondering if
he wasn't dropped onto his right hip into a too small and too
narrow grave, considering the fact that the hands may have
fallen to the right, the original configuration of the collarbones
are high, suggesting the shoulders were raised, and the collapse
of the spine into the hollows to the right.

I know we have been told that the bones did not shift in the
grave, but that is patently impossible, else Richard would have
been walking around with his ribs pointing down toward his
hips, his pelvis disunited, rendering him unable to walk with
its flattened shape and separation from the sacrum, and the
collarbones about 45 degrees out of alignment.  There was
no possible way he could have been mobile the way the
bones were lying in situ.  No one can walk with their pelvis
not attached to the spine because there is no weight bearing
provided for the mass above the waist.

With these obvious shifts in the ribs and pelvis, and spine's
exaggerated curvature in the grave, they do rather look to
be in contrast with his very active lifestyle (riding to and fro
from London, fighting on battlefields, etc.) Also, since they
did state that the severe curvature of the spine as seen from
the gravesite would have compromised his lung and heart,
that also seems in conflict with his physical abilities as recorded.
I think all of this combined can be said to give some indication
that the spine likely has shifted postmortem as well.

I agree wholeheartedly with Aidan; I really want to hear from
some real experts on this, and I still feel a forensic anthropologist
could be the key to really understanding what Richard's bones
are telling us today.  These guys are really experts at telling us
what happens to bones in the grave...or the water...or having
been burned, or scattered and gnawed by animals, etc. 

~Penny


Live simply.  Love generously.  Care deeply.  Speak kindly.
        And never regret anything that made you smile.


________________________________
From: Wednesday McKenna <wednesday.mac@...>
To: thepennywhistle@...
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 9:02 PM
Subject: scoliosis post


3.1
Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:39 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Aidan Donnelly" aidan.donnelly@...
There is also a good possibility that they had the ingenuity to provide a back-brace for him when the condition began to show itself in his early teens.

I don't know enough about scoliosis but removal of any bracing (armour
as well), the long journey over the horse/pony back followed by the
markedly uneven position of the upper torso in the grave, along with the
decay of the soft tissues, may well have left a greater curvature than
would have been there erect and living. Have to check how fast, given
such conditions, the bones could have moved to make it look worse than
it actually was in life.

I sincerely hope we have not heard the last word from the experts on this.

Aidan

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)


 
And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
Paul

On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
>> prove difficult to him!
>> Paul
>>
>> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If
they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving.
Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not
able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.
Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before
his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other
illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back
problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a
few days ago.....
>>>
>>> Ishita
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have
been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often
quoted in books.
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

I agree with this too. I suppose I was expecting a forensic pathologist to have been involved. Have they yet said what they're going to be doing with the bones over the next 12 months?



________________________________
From: The Pennywhistle <thepennywhistle@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2013, 1:27
Subject: 3.1 Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)

 

Certainly postmortem changes would  have been taking effect
by the time Richard was put in the grave.  I am wondering if
he wasn't dropped onto his right hip into a too small and too
narrow grave, considering the fact that the hands may have
fallen to the right, the original configuration of the collarbones
are high, suggesting the shoulders were raised, and the collapse
of the spine into the hollows to the right.

I know we have been told that the bones did not shift in the
grave, but that is patently impossible, else Richard would have
been walking around with his ribs pointing down toward his
hips, his pelvis disunited, rendering him unable to walk with
its flattened shape and separation from the sacrum, and the
collarbones about 45 degrees out of alignment.  There was
no possible way he could have been mobile the way the
bones were lying in situ.  No one can walk with their pelvis
not attached to the spine because there is no weight bearing
provided for the mass above the waist.

With these obvious shifts in the ribs and pelvis, and spine's
exaggerated curvature in the grave, they do rather look to
be in contrast with his very active lifestyle (riding to and fro
from London, fighting on battlefields, etc.) Also, since they
did state that the severe curvature of the spine as seen from
the gravesite would have compromised his lung and heart,
that also seems in conflict with his physical abilities as recorded.
I think all of this combined can be said to give some indication
that the spine likely has shifted postmortem as well.

I agree wholeheartedly with Aidan; I really want to hear from
some real experts on this, and I still feel a forensic anthropologist
could be the key to really understanding what Richard's bones
are telling us today.  These guys are really experts at telling us
what happens to bones in the grave...or the water...or having
been burned, or scattered and gnawed by animals, etc. 

~Penny

Live simply.  Love generously.  Care deeply.  Speak kindly.
        And never regret anything that made you smile.

________________________________
From: Wednesday McKenna wednesday.mac@...>
To: thepennywhistle@...
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 9:02 PM
Subject: scoliosis post


3.1
Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:39 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Aidan Donnelly" aidan.donnelly@...
There is also a good possibility that they had the ingenuity to provide a back-brace for him when the condition began to show itself in his early teens.

I don't know enough about scoliosis but removal of any bracing (armour
as well), the long journey over the horse/pony back followed by the
markedly uneven position of the upper torso in the grave, along with the
decay of the soft tissues, may well have left a greater curvature than
would have been there erect and living. Have to check how fast, given
such conditions, the bones could have moved to make it look worse than
it actually was in life.

I sincerely hope we have not heard the last word from the experts on this.

Aidan

________________________________
From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
To:
Cc: paul.bale@...
Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)

 
And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
Paul

On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
>
> Ishita Bandyo
> www.ishitabandyo.com
> www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
>
> On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
>
>> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
>> prove difficult to him!
>> Paul
>>
>> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
>>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If
they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving.
Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not
able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.
Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before
his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other
illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back
problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a
few days ago.....
>>>
>>> Ishita
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
>>> To:
>>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
>>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
>>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
>>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
>>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have
been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often
quoted in books.
>>> Marie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Richard Liveth Yet!
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Liveth Yet!

I posted a comment on the string about scoliosis, and consider you have a point. My own comment relates to the fact that I have a sideways scoliosis (which I was born with but undiagnosed until adulthood) that also caused a "deformed" heart and lung (I quote the socialist) "that seems to work all right." It is obvious if I stand naked and would certainly be obvious in my skeleton - having looked at Richard's (On screen) I doubt his is any worse than mine and probably no more obvious to the onlookers at the time. It doesn't actually get worse with time, unless it's one of those developmental forms, and if his lifestyle is anything to go by, he was active and does not seem incommoded by his scoliosis.

Jennifer Bradley

--- In , The Pennywhistle wrote:
>
> Certainly postmortem changes would  have been taking effect
> by the time Richard was put in the grave.  I am wondering if
> he wasn't dropped onto his right hip into a too small and too
> narrow grave, considering the fact that the hands may have
> fallen to the right, the original configuration of the collarbones
> are high, suggesting the shoulders were raised, and the collapse
> of the spine into the hollows to the right.
>
> I know we have been told that the bones did not shift in the
> grave, but that is patently impossible, else Richard would have
> been walking around with his ribs pointing down toward his
> hips, his pelvis disunited, rendering him unable to walk with
> its flattened shape and separation from the sacrum, and the
> collarbones about 45 degrees out of alignment.  There was
> no possible way he could have been mobile the way the
> bones were lying in situ.  No one can walk with their pelvis
> not attached to the spine because there is no weight bearing
> provided for the mass above the waist.
>
> With these obvious shifts in the ribs and pelvis, and spine's
> exaggerated curvature in the grave, they do rather look to
> be in contrast with his very active lifestyle (riding to and fro
> from London, fighting on battlefields, etc.) Also, since they
> did state that the severe curvature of the spine as seen from
> the gravesite would have compromised his lung and heart,
> that also seems in conflict with his physical abilities as recorded.
> I think all of this combined can be said to give some indication
> that the spine likely has shifted postmortem as well.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with Aidan; I really want to hear from
> some real experts on this, and I still feel a forensic anthropologist
> could be the key to really understanding what Richard's bones
> are telling us today.  These guys are really experts at telling us
> what happens to bones in the grave...or the water...or having
> been burned, or scattered and gnawed by animals, etc. 
>
> ~Penny
>
>
> Live simply.  Love generously.  Care deeply.  Speak kindly.
>         And never regret anything that made you smile.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Wednesday McKenna
> To: thepennywhistle@...
> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 9:02 PM
> Subject: scoliosis post
>
>
> 3.1
> Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
> Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:39 pm (PST) . Posted by:
> "Aidan Donnelly" aidan.donnelly@...
> There is also a good possibility that they had the ingenuity to provide a back-brace for him when the condition began to show itself in his early teens.
>
> I don't know enough about scoliosis but removal of any bracing (armour
> as well), the long journey over the horse/pony back followed by the
> markedly uneven position of the upper torso in the grave, along with the
> decay of the soft tissues, may well have left a greater curvature than
> would have been there erect and living. Have to check how fast, given
> such conditions, the bones could have moved to make it look worse than
> it actually was in life.
>
> I sincerely hope we have not heard the last word from the experts on this.
>
> Aidan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...>
> To:
> Cc: paul.bale@...
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 February 2013 4:27 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)
>
>
>  
> And yet though you seem to want to believe otherwise, exercise and a
> healthy diet could have lessened the condition and made it more
> manageable. Though of course we still haven't heard the last from the
> examination of the bones regarding the scoliosis.
> I'm sure Michael Phelps has been having terrible problems with his sex
> life because of his scoliosis hasn't he? :-)
> Paul
>
> On 11/02/2013 18:48, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> > But he was younger than. Probably the condition grew worse I we the years?
> >
> > Ishita Bandyo
> > www.ishitabandyo.com
> > www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
> > www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com
> >
> > On Feb 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Paul Trevor Bale paul.bale@...> wrote:
> >
> >> He had two children before he married Anne so the job clearly didn't
> >> prove difficult to him!
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> On 11/02/2013 17:50, Ishita Bandyo wrote:
> >>> Marie, When do you think Anne and Richard were married? If
> they were married in 1472, it would seem they had hard time conceiving.
> Or could that be due to Richard's back problem that they were not
> able to have sex as often as they would have if he had no problem.
> Could that be the reason for their having only one child connived before
> his condition got worse? Maybe R's lack of mistresses and other
> illegitimate children at the later years is due to the severe back
> problem? Just wondering. I think Megan posted something to that effect a
> few days ago.....
> >>>
> >>> Ishita
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: mariewalsh2003 [email protected]>
> >>> To:
> >>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:23 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: A suggestion
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In , "Douglas Eugene >
> >>>> As for ricard1an's suggestion, my only query is was she still in the
> >>>> household? Surely Edward of Middleham was past the point where he'd have a
> >>>> nurse in his household, at least in that capacity? Was she still in his
> >>>> household in some other capacity or just as a "family retainer"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Doug
> >>>>
> >>> Edward was possibly not yet turned eight - he seems to have
> been born in the late spring or summer of 1476, not 1473 as often
> quoted in books.
> >>> Marie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Richard Liveth Yet!
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Richard Liveth Yet!
>
>
>
>
>

Okay, I know this is adding to the e mail trail but I just have to say "(I quote the socialist)" - obviously I know this is a predictive text error but it made me laugh!
 
It's also really good Jennifer to hear this from the horse's mouth (not that I'm calling you a horse!)
 
Liz
 

From: jenbradley105 <jenbradley105@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013, 6:05
Subject: 3.1 Re: A suggestion(edward of Middleham)

 
I posted a comment on the string about scoliosis, and consider you have a point. My own comment relates to the fact that I have a sideways scoliosis (which I was born with but undiagnosed until adulthood) that also caused a "deformed" heart and lung (I quote the socialist) "that seems to work all right." It is obvious if I stand naked and would certainly be obvious in my skeleton - having looked at Richard's (On screen) I doubt his is any worse than mine and probably no more obvious to the onlookers at the time. It doesn't actually get worse with time, unless it's one of those developmental forms, and if his lifestyle is anything to go by, he was active and does not seem incommoded by his scoliosis.

Jennifer Bradley

>
.

Thank you so much for posting this Jennifer. Good to hear it causes you
few problems, and that Richard would have been the same.
Paul

From: jenbradley105 <jenbradley105@...> To:
Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013,
6:05 Subject: 3.1 Re: A suggestion(edward of
Middleham) I posted a comment on the string about scoliosis, and
consider you have a point. My own comment relates to the fact that I
have a sideways scoliosis (which I was born with but undiagnosed until
adulthood) that also caused a "deformed" heart and lung (I quote the
socialist) "that seems to work all right." It is obvious if I stand
naked and would certainly be obvious in my skeleton - having looked at
Richard's (On screen) I doubt his is any worse than mine and probably no
more obvious to the onlookers at the time. It doesn't actually get worse
with time, unless it's one of those developmental forms, and if his
lifestyle is anything to go by, he was active and does not seem
incommoded by his scoliosis. Jennifer Bradley



-- Richard Liveth Yet!

Yes, thank you Jennifer!

Ishita Bandyo
www.ishitabandyo.com
www.facebook.com/ishitabandyofinearts
www.ishitabandyoarts.blogspot.com

On Feb 14, 2013, at 9:25 AM, Paul Trevor Bale <paul.bale@...> wrote:

> Thank you so much for posting this Jennifer. Good to hear it causes you
> few problems, and that Richard would have been the same.
> Paul
>
> From: jenbradley105 jenbradley105@...> To:
> Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013,
> 6:05 Subject: 3.1 Re: A suggestion(edward of
> Middleham) I posted a comment on the string about scoliosis, and
> consider you have a point. My own comment relates to the fact that I
> have a sideways scoliosis (which I was born with but undiagnosed until
> adulthood) that also caused a "deformed" heart and lung (I quote the
> socialist) "that seems to work all right." It is obvious if I stand
> naked and would certainly be obvious in my skeleton - having looked at
> Richard's (On screen) I doubt his is any worse than mine and probably no
> more obvious to the onlookers at the time. It doesn't actually get worse
> with time, unless it's one of those developmental forms, and if his
> lifestyle is anything to go by, he was active and does not seem
> incommoded by his scoliosis. Jennifer Bradley
>
> -- Richard Liveth Yet!
>