Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Ricardian Novels - Brunhild

However, despite
> what
> > Brunhild says, agents vet manuscripts very carefully.
>
> I am sure they do. I wonder is it coincidence that the very worst
> have been American? ;-)

Ok, Brunhild, who are these dreadful Americans? <ggg> I can't recall any US
novels about Richard. Ok, John M Ford's "The Dragon Waiting". But I
thought that was good.

Mind you, I do wonder about Julian Rathbone
> and that appalling female writer responsible for the ghost thing...

Well, they're both English as far as I know, but then I don't agree with you
about quality - I think we have a disagreement on a matter of taste. They
both strike me as more-than-competent writers. Maybe we should check out
all the Ricardian novels we have read. The only ones I've avoided like the
plague are things like "This Ravished Rose" which I'm sure would make me
giggle. Lots of heaving bosoms and swooning, one imagines. And
badly-written sex.

> > The best way is to secure an agent if possible as very few
> publishers
> > these days read unsolicited manuscripts.

> So I believe. They do seem a little timid though - they will try
> familiar periods - Roman, Ricardian, Henrician - but seem to be
> rather cautious with less well known periods.
>

Yes, that is a pity - I'm sure there is a market for good historical novels,
and not just those squeezed in as genre fiction. There is one writer I was
very taken with who wrote a novel set in Elizabethan times, called
Firedrake's Eye - I wish I could recall her name!

Then there is Paul Doherty who amongst his prodigious output seems to have
covered Henry VIII, Richard III, the Ancient Egyptians (?) - Doherty writes
very well and is clearly a devout Catholic, which gives his books an
interesting slant.

Then I suppose there are the "heavyweights" like Peter Ackroyd, Rose
Tremain...I'm sure you can add more!

Of course when they were publishing the Cadfael books, they reissued a lot
of Edith Pargeter's earlier work - and she was an extraordinarily
traditional writer, covering a number of "obscure" periods - the reigns of
Stephen and Matilda? But the vogue for historical mysteries was prompted by
the success of "The Name of the Rose" - so you never know what will come
along next, or what the next fashion will be!

Jessica

> Yes, that is a pity - I'm sure there is a market for good
historical novels,
> and not just those squeezed in as genre fiction. There is one
writer I was
> very taken with who wrote a novel set in Elizabethan times, called
> Firedrake's Eye - I wish I could recall her name!
>


Firedrake's Eye was written by Patricia Finney.

> > Yes, that is a pity - I'm sure there is a market for good
> historical novels,
> > and not just those squeezed in as genre fiction. There is one
> writer I was
> > very taken with who wrote a novel set in Elizabethan times, called
> > Firedrake's Eye - I wish I could recall her name!
> >
>
>
> Firedrake's Eye was written by Patricia Finney.
>

Many thanks! I was very taken with her as a writer, and also the sequel,
Unicorn's Blood. She did seem to me to make a formidable attempt to
overcome some of the problems that we have referred to in this discussion.

Jessica

In a message dated 8/2/2003 5:35:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
la@... writes:

> Then I suppose there are the "heavyweights" like Peter Ackroyd, Rose
> Tremain...I'm sure you can add more!

Peter Ackroyd put out a fantastic biography of Sir Thomas More that I found
very thorough and interesting
Victoria

{Loyaulté Me Lie{

--- In , "jessica RYDILL"
<la@l...> wrote:
> However, despite
> > what
> > > Brunhild says, agents vet manuscripts very carefully.
> >
> > I am sure they do. I wonder is it coincidence that the very worst
> > have been American? ;-)
>
> Ok, Brunhild, who are these dreadful Americans? <ggg> I can't
recall any US
> novels about Richard. Ok, John M Ford's "The Dragon Waiting".
But I
> thought that was good.

I wasn't thinking of novels on Richard specifically. More like the
one on Emma and some others too dull/awful even to think about.
Never heard of the one above. Is it a fantasy type or would I
appreciate it???? ;-)
>
> Mind you, I do wonder about Julian Rathbone
> > and that appalling female writer responsible for the ghost
thing...
>
> Well, they're both English as far as I know, but then I don't
agree with you
> about quality - I think we have a disagreement on a matter of
taste. They
> both strike me as more-than-competent writers. Maybe we should
check out
> all the Ricardian novels we have read. The only ones I've avoided
like the
> plague are things like "This Ravished Rose" which I'm sure would
make me
> giggle. Lots of heaving bosoms and swooning, one imagines. And
> badly-written sex.

Yikes. When I was at school there was an unfortunate craze of
reading "Angelique" novels. I took one looks at the covera nd
thought "No fear!"
>
> > > The best way is to secure an agent if possible as very few
> > publishers
> > > these days read unsolicited manuscripts.
>
> > So I believe. They do seem a little timid though - they will try
> > familiar periods - Roman, Ricardian, Henrician - but seem to be
> > rather cautious with less well known periods.
> >
>
> Yes, that is a pity - I'm sure there is a market for good
historical novels,
> and not just those squeezed in as genre fiction. There is one
writer I was
> very taken with who wrote a novel set in Elizabethan times, called
> Firedrake's Eye - I wish I could recall her name!

Not familiar with that title either.May try and look it up.
>
> Then there is Paul Doherty who amongst his prodigious output seems
to have
> covered Henry VIII, Richard III, the Ancient Egyptians (?) -
Doherty writes
> very well and is clearly a devout Catholic, which gives his books
an
> interesting slant.

Name rings a bell, never read any though.
>
> Then I suppose there are the "heavyweights" like Peter Ackroyd,
Rose
> Tremain...I'm sure you can add more!

Now I really did enjoy Tremain's Restoration. Same period and also
well worth reading - my kind of humour, anyway - is Diana Norman's
Vizard Mask. This really is intelligently written, and whilst she no
doubt plays fast and loose with fact since so little is actually
known about Peg Hughes it hardly matters. BY far the best - and with
world-wide fans to prove it - are Dorothy Dunnett's Lymonds (the
better of the two IMO) and the Niccolos. Close second is Colleen
McCullouch's Roman series. Both mammoth undertakings and of superior
quality in terms of both writing and history. Also a superb read and
up there in the top 10 is the rather unusual Place of Greater Safety
by Hilary Mantel, French Revolution - brilliant. All, of course, a
matter of taste, but all the above stand out from the crowd by any
criteria.
>
> Of course when they were publishing the Cadfael books, they
reissued a lot
> of Edith Pargeter's earlier work - and she was an extraordinarily
> traditional writer, covering a number of "obscure" periods - the
reigns of
> Stephen and Matilda? But the vogue for historical mysteries was
prompted by
> the success of "The Name of the Rose" - so you never know what
will come
> along next, or what the next fashion will be!

There seem to be hundreds of these about - a real plethora. I do
enjoy them, but the accuracy is, as mentioned earlier, not always of
the best. But I admire anyone who can think up those convoluted
plots.
Brunhild
>
> Jessica

> > Ok, Brunhild, who are these dreadful Americans? <ggg> I can't
> recall any US
> > novels about Richard. Ok, John M Ford's "The Dragon Waiting".
> But I
> > thought that was good.
>
> I wasn't thinking of novels on Richard specifically. More like the
> one on Emma and some others too dull/awful even to think about.
> Never heard of the one above. Is it a fantasy type or would I
> appreciate it???? ;-)

I'm afraid it is fantasy, though very different to Freda Warrington. He
posits a pagan Europe, with Christianity a minor and oppressed religion.
I'm not sure it would be your cup of tea...but it is very clever.

> Yikes. When I was at school there was an unfortunate craze of
> reading "Angelique" novels. I took one looks at the covera nd
> thought "No fear!"

I think my sister may have read those as she was fixated on the 3 Musketeers
in much the same way that I have been on Richard. They were certainly pulp
fiction.
There is one
> writer I was
> > very taken with who wrote a novel set in Elizabethan times, called
> > Firedrake's Eye - I wish I could recall her name!
>
> Not familiar with that title either.May try and look it up.

sweethelly kindly mentioned that the author is Patricia Finney. I would
call it more mainstream historical fiction with fantastic elements. Closer
to magic realism than fantasy. It reminds me of another rather strange
historical novel called "The Burning of the Rose" which appeared and then
disappeared. That was set in the fifteenth century and had a heroine who
was the model for the works of Della Robbia. Again, it was not pure
historical fiction - there was a theme relating to reincarnation.
> >
> > Then there is Paul Doherty who amongst his prodigious output seems
> to have
> > covered Henry VIII, Richard III, the Ancient Egyptians (?) -
> Doherty writes
> > very well and is clearly a devout Catholic, which gives his books
> an
> > interesting slant.
>
> Name rings a bell, never read any though.

Doherty either seems to write mysteries or books with a
mystical/supernatural slant. For instance "The Rose Demon", which has an
episode involving Richard, is about a demon. Hmm. On the other hand is
most definitely not marketed as fantasy. In his early stages he wrote a
straight Ricardian novel, narrated by Francis Lovell. It was published by
Robert Hale and is no longer in print.
> >
> > Then I suppose there are the "heavyweights" like Peter Ackroyd,
> Rose
> > Tremain...I'm sure you can add more!
>
> Now I really did enjoy Tremain's Restoration. Same period and also
> well worth reading - my kind of humour, anyway - is Diana Norman's
> Vizard Mask. This really is intelligently written, and whilst she no
> doubt plays fast and loose with fact since so little is actually
> known about Peg Hughes it hardly matters. BY far the best - and with
> world-wide fans to prove it - are Dorothy Dunnett's Lymonds (the
> better of the two IMO) and the Niccolos. Close second is Colleen
> McCullouch's Roman series. Both mammoth undertakings and of superior
> quality in terms of both writing and history. Also a superb read and
> up there in the top 10 is the rather unusual Place of Greater Safety
> by Hilary Mantel, French Revolution - brilliant. All, of course, a
> matter of taste, but all the above stand out from the crowd by any
> criteria.

I must confess to pusillanimity with regard to the size of Dorothy Dunnett's
novels. I should like to try Hilary Mantel. I tend to think of Colleen
McCullough as a writer of blockbuster novels, which is probably most unfair!

> >
> > Of course when they were publishing the Cadfael books, they
> reissued a lot
> > of Edith Pargeter's earlier work - and she was an extraordinarily
> > traditional writer, covering a number of "obscure" periods - the
> reigns of
> > Stephen and Matilda? But the vogue for historical mysteries was
> prompted by
> > the success of "The Name of the Rose" - so you never know what
> will come
> > along next, or what the next fashion will be!
>
> There seem to be hundreds of these about - a real plethora. I do
> enjoy them, but the accuracy is, as mentioned earlier, not always of
> the best. But I admire anyone who can think up those convoluted
> plots.

Yes, the technical skill is impressive! Have you come across Kate Sedley
and her Roger the Chapman series? Rather stodgy but Richard features several
times as a sympathetic character. Unfortunately, I haven't seen one for a
while.

Jessica

>
> I'm afraid it is fantasy, though very different to Freda
Warrington. He
> posits a pagan Europe, with Christianity a minor and oppressed
religion.


Maybe not then, but will consider it. A friend is reading Midnight
Court and mailed me to say how diabloical she also thinks it is!
Tickled me.
>
It reminds me of another rather strange
> historical novel called "The Burning of the Rose" which appeared
and then
> disappeared. That was set in the fifteenth century and had a
heroine who
> was the model for the works of Della Robbia. Again, it was not
pure
> historical fiction - there was a theme relating to reincarnation.

Somewhere years ago I read one about Mona Lisa and seem to recall
having enjoyed it.
> > >
> > >>
> Doherty either seems to write mysteries or books with a
> mystical/supernatural slant. For instance "The Rose Demon", which
has an
> episode involving Richard, is about a demon. Hmm. On the other
hand is
> most definitely not marketed as fantasy. In his early stages he
wrote a
> straight Ricardian novel, narrated by Francis Lovell. It was
published by
> Robert Hale and is no longer in print.

I haven't come across that. Abebooks may be worth checking.
> > >
> > > Then I suppose there are the "heavyweights" like Peter Ackroyd,
> > Rose
> > > Tremain...I'm sure you can add more!
> >
> > Now I really did enjoy Tremain's Restoration. Same period and
also
> > well worth reading - my kind of humour, anyway - is Diana
Norman's
> > Vizard Mask. This really is intelligently written, and whilst
she no
> > doubt plays fast and loose with fact since so little is actually
> > known about Peg Hughes it hardly matters. BY far the best - and
with
> > world-wide fans to prove it - are Dorothy Dunnett's Lymonds (the
> > better of the two IMO) and the Niccolos. Close second is Colleen
> > McCullouch's Roman series. Both mammoth undertakings and of
superior
> > quality in terms of both writing and history. Also a superb read
and
> > up there in the top 10 is the rather unusual Place of Greater
Safety
> > by Hilary Mantel, French Revolution - brilliant. All, of course,
a
> > matter of taste, but all the above stand out from the crowd by
any
> > criteria.
>
> I must confess to pusillanimity with regard to the size of Dorothy
Dunnett's
> novels.

Don't be put off by the size. Try Game of Kings which stands alone
and is the first. If you don't like it by page 6 you never will so
give up. I read it when I was 17 and quite literally couldn't put it
down, I stayed up all night, didn't stop for meals and finished it
after two days of solid reading - then read it again! But it does
spoil one ofr other authors somewhat.

>I should like to try Hilary Mantel. I tend to think of Colleen
> McCullough as a writer of blockbuster novels, which is probably
most unfair!
>
Her Roman series is not for the faint hearted - everyone has
extremely long names and she covers around 5 years in 700 pages, so
it's very detailed stuff, but for anyone interested in Roman history
they are a cut above. I found Lucius Cornelius Sulla utterly
compelling.
> > >
> > > >
> Yes, the technical skill is impressive! Have you come across Kate
Sedley
> and her Roger the Chapman series? Rather stodgy but Richard
features several
> times as a sympathetic character. Unfortunately, I haven't seen
one for a
> while.
>
> Jessica

Don't know that one either, Jessica. Most of my leisure reading for
a few years has been text book, mostly 15C, so I have got behind
with novels.

--- In , "brunhild613"
<brunhild@n...> wrote:
>
> BY far the best - and
> with
> > > world-wide fans to prove it - are Dorothy Dunnett's Lymonds (the
> > > better of the two IMO) and the Niccolos.
> >
> > I must confess to pusillanimity with regard to the size of
Dorothy
> Dunnett's
> > novels.
>
> Don't be put off by the size. Try Game of Kings which stands alone
> and is the first. If you don't like it by page 6 you never will so
> give up. I read it when I was 17 and quite literally couldn't put
it
> down, I stayed up all night, didn't stop for meals and finished it
> after two days of solid reading - then read it again! But it does
> spoil one ofr other authors somewhat.

I had an odd reaction to Dorothy Dunnett. A friend originally gave
me the first book of the Lymond series, and I couldn't get past the
third page, much less the sixth. I found her utterly unreadable.

Later the same friend convinced me to try her again with the first
book of the Niccolo series, and with qualms I did. And I loved it
and eagerly devoured them all. Her style seemed so different that I
could hardly believe the same author wrote both.

And my friend who love both series despises Dunnett's mysteries.

So if you don't like one series, I urge you to sample the other.
Katy
>
>

Most of my leisure reading for
> a few years has been text book, mostly 15C, so I have got behind
> with novels.

I wish I could say the same, Brunhild! About the last book I read on
Richard was Michael Hicks. Studying my bookcases last night, I thought once
again that I should like to read a parallel text of the Croyland Chronicle.

Jessica

>
> I had an odd reaction to Dorothy Dunnett. A friend originally
gave
> me the first book of the Lymond series, and I couldn't get past
the
> third page, much less the sixth. I found her utterly unreadable.
>
> Later the same friend convinced me to try her again with the first
> book of the Niccolo series, and with qualms I did. And I loved it
> and eagerly devoured them all. Her style seemed so different that
I
> could hardly believe the same author wrote both.

My sister was the same - didn't get past first few pages, but then
she never reads historical, only "great literature"! My mother,
sister-in-law and I all love them. I have read all the Lymonds 5-8
times each. Although I read the Niccolos I didn't like them, I found
her getting too clever and obtuse, and felt very cheated by the naff
ending and even more so by the epilogue explaining the family
link! :-(
>
> And my friend who love both series despises Dunnett's mysteries.

Never read them, mother did, but they never appealed. I fear the
titles put me off!
>
> So if you don't like one series, I urge you to sample the other.
> Katy

Absolutely. The interweaving of literature, travel, culture and art
with history is second to none.
Brunhild
> >
> >

--- In , "jessica RYDILL"
<la@l...> wrote:
> Most of my leisure reading for
> > a few years has been text book, mostly 15C, so I have got behind
> > with novels.
>
> I wish I could say the same, Brunhild! About the last book I read
on
> Richard was Michael Hicks. Studying my bookcases last night, I
thought once
> again that I should like to read a parallel text of the Croyland
Chronicle.
>
> Jessica

My book shelves have become so full that sometimes they are two
deep - till I clear them - and they have spread to the plate rack
around the wall tops! The 15C has now spread to the point where the
Tudors had to change shelf. I am currently reading the rather small
print but good biog of Warwick by Michael Hicks. At the weekend I
read Richard III and Buckingham's Rebellion by Louise Gill only to
find it said very little about the rebellion, was about the whole
reign, and consisted primarily of lists! Lists of office holders,
lists of office losers, attainted, etc etc. Not really one I could
recomend unless you like lists or need the info! As it happens it
was useful for unit 1! The Warwick is more for pleasure.