Re: Stuck?
Re: Stuck?
2003-08-04 14:12:02
Paul asked: Has anyone actually managed to get through
this book? Iýve tried twice and it has defeated me!
Anyone have better luck?
***
Curious you should mention that Paul, I got about a
third of the way through
before and then got horrendously STUCK.
Jessica
***
I completed the early chapters--through Henry VI's
reign--without fatigue. I learned a lot from them.
The illustrations are worth a good look. The cover
illustration includes an egg-shape that looks like the
planet Jupiter to me. But the illustration predates
Galileo's observations of Jupiter, so it probably not
that. Hopefully the text will eventually tell me why
the 15th cent. illustrator painted Jupiter-like swirls
and bands on the surface of the egg. If the
human-headed bird standing on the egg suggests Edward
IV, the connection with the planet Jupiter (intended
or not) is interesting.
But I've stalled in the first chapter about Edward IV.
Part of my fatigue seems to be caused by Hughes'
long, long sentences and paragraphs. But they didn't
bother me in the earlier chapters.
I think most of my problem grows from my opinion of
Edward IV. As I read, I keep thinking that all the
alchemists' praise for Edward was proved so bitterly
ironic by the later events of his reign and their
consequences for his brothers and his sons.
Plus I remember reading that Hughes is critical of
Richard III. So I can't help asking myself why Huges
doesn't seem to notice the gap between the golden
prophesies made for Edward IV and the actual events of
his reign. Maybe I haven't read far enough yet.
I like to finish what I start, and I usually finish a
book unless it's really, really bad. So I will finish
this eventually.
Marion
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this book? Iýve tried twice and it has defeated me!
Anyone have better luck?
***
Curious you should mention that Paul, I got about a
third of the way through
before and then got horrendously STUCK.
Jessica
***
I completed the early chapters--through Henry VI's
reign--without fatigue. I learned a lot from them.
The illustrations are worth a good look. The cover
illustration includes an egg-shape that looks like the
planet Jupiter to me. But the illustration predates
Galileo's observations of Jupiter, so it probably not
that. Hopefully the text will eventually tell me why
the 15th cent. illustrator painted Jupiter-like swirls
and bands on the surface of the egg. If the
human-headed bird standing on the egg suggests Edward
IV, the connection with the planet Jupiter (intended
or not) is interesting.
But I've stalled in the first chapter about Edward IV.
Part of my fatigue seems to be caused by Hughes'
long, long sentences and paragraphs. But they didn't
bother me in the earlier chapters.
I think most of my problem grows from my opinion of
Edward IV. As I read, I keep thinking that all the
alchemists' praise for Edward was proved so bitterly
ironic by the later events of his reign and their
consequences for his brothers and his sons.
Plus I remember reading that Hughes is critical of
Richard III. So I can't help asking myself why Huges
doesn't seem to notice the gap between the golden
prophesies made for Edward IV and the actual events of
his reign. Maybe I haven't read far enough yet.
I like to finish what I start, and I usually finish a
book unless it's really, really bad. So I will finish
this eventually.
Marion
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Stuck?
2003-08-04 16:54:52
--- In , marion davis
<phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> Paul asked: Has anyone actually managed to get through
> this book? I¹ve tried twice and it has defeated me!
> Anyone have better luck?
> ***
>
> Curious you should mention that Paul, I got about a
> third of the way through
> before and then got horrendously STUCK.
>
> Jessica
>
> ***
>
> I completed the early chapters--through Henry VI's
> reign--without fatigue. I learned a lot from them.
>
> The illustrations are worth a good look. The cover
> illustration includes an egg-shape that looks like the
> planet Jupiter to me. But the illustration predates
> Galileo's observations of Jupiter, so it probably not
> that. Hopefully the text will eventually tell me why
> the 15th cent. illustrator painted Jupiter-like swirls
> and bands on the surface of the egg. If the
> human-headed bird standing on the egg suggests Edward
> IV, the connection with the planet Jupiter (intended
> or not) is interesting.
>
> But I've stalled in the first chapter about Edward IV.
> Part of my fatigue seems to be caused by Hughes'
> long, long sentences and paragraphs. But they didn't
> bother me in the earlier chapters.
>
> I think most of my problem grows from my opinion of
> Edward IV. As I read, I keep thinking that all the
> alchemists' praise for Edward was proved so bitterly
> ironic by the later events of his reign and their
> consequences for his brothers and his sons.
>
> Plus I remember reading that Hughes is critical of
> Richard III.
Yes. Fortunatley the information he gives regarding Richard and the
alchemists, although presented in a good light, is actually good ammo
for Ricardians. I have his earlier book on Richard's religious life,
and I keep trying to read it and stumbling because he starts off by
saying Richard was bad, and as Anne Sutton & Livia V.F. have shown,
also sincerely religious. So it must have been the self-righteous
sort of religion that makes people feel justified in doing anything.
Which is an argument on its head if I ever saw one.
So I can't help asking myself why Huges
> doesn't seem to notice the gap between the golden
> prophesies made for Edward IV and the actual events of
> his reign. Maybe I haven't read far enough yet.
You haven't read far enough yet.
>
> I like to finish what I start, and I usually finish a
> book unless it's really, really bad. So I will finish
> this eventually.
>
> Marion
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
<phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> Paul asked: Has anyone actually managed to get through
> this book? I¹ve tried twice and it has defeated me!
> Anyone have better luck?
> ***
>
> Curious you should mention that Paul, I got about a
> third of the way through
> before and then got horrendously STUCK.
>
> Jessica
>
> ***
>
> I completed the early chapters--through Henry VI's
> reign--without fatigue. I learned a lot from them.
>
> The illustrations are worth a good look. The cover
> illustration includes an egg-shape that looks like the
> planet Jupiter to me. But the illustration predates
> Galileo's observations of Jupiter, so it probably not
> that. Hopefully the text will eventually tell me why
> the 15th cent. illustrator painted Jupiter-like swirls
> and bands on the surface of the egg. If the
> human-headed bird standing on the egg suggests Edward
> IV, the connection with the planet Jupiter (intended
> or not) is interesting.
>
> But I've stalled in the first chapter about Edward IV.
> Part of my fatigue seems to be caused by Hughes'
> long, long sentences and paragraphs. But they didn't
> bother me in the earlier chapters.
>
> I think most of my problem grows from my opinion of
> Edward IV. As I read, I keep thinking that all the
> alchemists' praise for Edward was proved so bitterly
> ironic by the later events of his reign and their
> consequences for his brothers and his sons.
>
> Plus I remember reading that Hughes is critical of
> Richard III.
Yes. Fortunatley the information he gives regarding Richard and the
alchemists, although presented in a good light, is actually good ammo
for Ricardians. I have his earlier book on Richard's religious life,
and I keep trying to read it and stumbling because he starts off by
saying Richard was bad, and as Anne Sutton & Livia V.F. have shown,
also sincerely religious. So it must have been the self-righteous
sort of religion that makes people feel justified in doing anything.
Which is an argument on its head if I ever saw one.
So I can't help asking myself why Huges
> doesn't seem to notice the gap between the golden
> prophesies made for Edward IV and the actual events of
> his reign. Maybe I haven't read far enough yet.
You haven't read far enough yet.
>
> I like to finish what I start, and I usually finish a
> book unless it's really, really bad. So I will finish
> this eventually.
>
> Marion
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: Stuck?
2003-08-04 21:03:13
I'm fishing this out of someone else's post:
> > Paul asked: Has anyone actually managed to get through
> > this book? I¹ve tried twice and it has defeated me!
> > Anyone have better luck?
> > ***
I've gotten "stuck," in a sense, in both of Jonathan Hughes' books,
as well as in Michael Jones' Bosworth book. In all three cases, it
has seemed to me that they've read an awful lot into small pieces of
evidence in many cases. Lacking the time to do a close reading and go
back to sources, I would get stuck because I was willing neither to
take the author on faith nor to do the homework necessary to assess
what he had written.
I'll tell y'all one thing, though -- if Hughes has done with the
evidence inside the book what his publisher did to the roundel from
the Edward IV Roll on the back dustjacket (altering the shape to fit
the space available), we probably all should be checking his sources
to see how many of his confident assertions conceal speculative leaps.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lblanchard@...
> > Paul asked: Has anyone actually managed to get through
> > this book? I¹ve tried twice and it has defeated me!
> > Anyone have better luck?
> > ***
I've gotten "stuck," in a sense, in both of Jonathan Hughes' books,
as well as in Michael Jones' Bosworth book. In all three cases, it
has seemed to me that they've read an awful lot into small pieces of
evidence in many cases. Lacking the time to do a close reading and go
back to sources, I would get stuck because I was willing neither to
take the author on faith nor to do the homework necessary to assess
what he had written.
I'll tell y'all one thing, though -- if Hughes has done with the
evidence inside the book what his publisher did to the roundel from
the Edward IV Roll on the back dustjacket (altering the shape to fit
the space available), we probably all should be checking his sources
to see how many of his confident assertions conceal speculative leaps.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lblanchard@...
Re: Stuck?
2003-08-04 22:00:24
--- In , "Laura Blanchard"
<lblanchard@r...> wrote:
> I'm fishing this out of someone else's post:
>
> > > Paul asked: Has anyone actually managed to get through
> > > this book? I¹ve tried twice and it has defeated me!
> > > Anyone have better luck?
> > > ***
>
> I've gotten "stuck," in a sense, in both of Jonathan Hughes' books,
> as well as in Michael Jones' Bosworth book. In all three cases, it
> has seemed to me that they've read an awful lot into small pieces
of
> evidence in many cases. Lacking the time to do a close reading and
go
> back to sources, I would get stuck because I was willing neither to
> take the author on faith nor to do the homework necessary to assess
> what he had written.
>
> I'll tell y'all one thing, though -- if Hughes has done with the
> evidence inside the book what his publisher did to the roundel from
> the Edward IV Roll on the back dustjacket (altering the shape to
fit
> the space available), we probably all should be checking his
sources
> to see how many of his confident assertions conceal speculative
leaps.
>
> Regards,
> Laura Blanchard
> lblanchard@r...
I think that would be great if someone could do it. I think a lot of
the detail in hughes is probably suspect; I think there are probably
a lot of 'speculative leaps' in his political interpretion of the
Ripley Scroll and the Morte d'Arthur, for instance, but the overall
impression is interesting and does remind us that the people of the
time made their decisions on the basis of a totally different world
view from ours - something I think your average historian doesn't get
to grips with. I'd like to see other people take up this subject and
really dig deep into it. I would also, for instance, be interested in
a study of the type of medicine being practised by these alchemists
and the likely effects on the patient.
I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
they're really opening up the debate. For instance It seems Michael
Jones' book is prompting investigation into the area around Merevale
Abbey (his new proposed site for Bosworth). And as most of you know
by now, I am drawn to the Edward IV a bastard theory both because of
the dates of York's absence at Pontoise and because in makes better
sense of the Yorkist period as a whole. It's good that it can now be
debated - just not possible before.
Marie
<lblanchard@r...> wrote:
> I'm fishing this out of someone else's post:
>
> > > Paul asked: Has anyone actually managed to get through
> > > this book? I¹ve tried twice and it has defeated me!
> > > Anyone have better luck?
> > > ***
>
> I've gotten "stuck," in a sense, in both of Jonathan Hughes' books,
> as well as in Michael Jones' Bosworth book. In all three cases, it
> has seemed to me that they've read an awful lot into small pieces
of
> evidence in many cases. Lacking the time to do a close reading and
go
> back to sources, I would get stuck because I was willing neither to
> take the author on faith nor to do the homework necessary to assess
> what he had written.
>
> I'll tell y'all one thing, though -- if Hughes has done with the
> evidence inside the book what his publisher did to the roundel from
> the Edward IV Roll on the back dustjacket (altering the shape to
fit
> the space available), we probably all should be checking his
sources
> to see how many of his confident assertions conceal speculative
leaps.
>
> Regards,
> Laura Blanchard
> lblanchard@r...
I think that would be great if someone could do it. I think a lot of
the detail in hughes is probably suspect; I think there are probably
a lot of 'speculative leaps' in his political interpretion of the
Ripley Scroll and the Morte d'Arthur, for instance, but the overall
impression is interesting and does remind us that the people of the
time made their decisions on the basis of a totally different world
view from ours - something I think your average historian doesn't get
to grips with. I'd like to see other people take up this subject and
really dig deep into it. I would also, for instance, be interested in
a study of the type of medicine being practised by these alchemists
and the likely effects on the patient.
I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
they're really opening up the debate. For instance It seems Michael
Jones' book is prompting investigation into the area around Merevale
Abbey (his new proposed site for Bosworth). And as most of you know
by now, I am drawn to the Edward IV a bastard theory both because of
the dates of York's absence at Pontoise and because in makes better
sense of the Yorkist period as a whole. It's good that it can now be
debated - just not possible before.
Marie
Re: Stuck?
2003-08-04 22:10:47
> The illustrations are worth a good look. The cover
> illustration includes an egg-shape that looks like the
> planet Jupiter to me. But the illustration predates
> Galileo's observations of Jupiter, so it probably not
> that. Hopefully the text will eventually tell me why
> the 15th cent. illustrator painted Jupiter-like swirls
> and bands on the surface of the egg. If the
> human-headed bird standing on the egg suggests Edward
> IV, the connection with the planet Jupiter (intended
> or not) is interesting.
Can't recall if this was discussed in the book, but the egg would be
the 'World Egg', with the sun-king perched on it, devouring his own
wing to show he is the Alpha & Omega, the perfect completion of God's
plan. It's very like the illustration from Ashmole Roll 53 shown on
page 91 with explanatory caption. The 'Jupiter' lines on the egg -
ending in swirls, from which new lines re-emerge - is I would think a
version of a very ancient & widespread symbol of life, death &
rebirth.
Marie
>>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> illustration includes an egg-shape that looks like the
> planet Jupiter to me. But the illustration predates
> Galileo's observations of Jupiter, so it probably not
> that. Hopefully the text will eventually tell me why
> the 15th cent. illustrator painted Jupiter-like swirls
> and bands on the surface of the egg. If the
> human-headed bird standing on the egg suggests Edward
> IV, the connection with the planet Jupiter (intended
> or not) is interesting.
Can't recall if this was discussed in the book, but the egg would be
the 'World Egg', with the sun-king perched on it, devouring his own
wing to show he is the Alpha & Omega, the perfect completion of God's
plan. It's very like the illustration from Ashmole Roll 53 shown on
page 91 with explanatory caption. The 'Jupiter' lines on the egg -
ending in swirls, from which new lines re-emerge - is I would think a
version of a very ancient & widespread symbol of life, death &
rebirth.
Marie
>>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Stuck?
2003-08-05 00:44:03
> From: "mariewalsh2003" <marie@...>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:00:15 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Stuck?
>
> I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
> they're really opening up the debate
Three cheers for you for this Marie!
Let us all keep thinking, taking on new ideas, and adding them to the mix!
Anyone stuck in the past is destined to remain there!<g>
Paul
> Reply-To:
> Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:00:15 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Stuck?
>
> I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
> they're really opening up the debate
Three cheers for you for this Marie!
Let us all keep thinking, taking on new ideas, and adding them to the mix!
Anyone stuck in the past is destined to remain there!<g>
Paul
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Stuck?
2003-08-05 09:29:24
> >
> > I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
> > they're really opening up the debate
> Three cheers for you for this Marie!
> Let us all keep thinking, taking on new ideas, and adding them to
the mix!
> Anyone stuck in the past is destined to remain there!<g>
> Paul
I can't find the original post of this thread - what is the book
under discussion?
> > I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
> > they're really opening up the debate
> Three cheers for you for this Marie!
> Let us all keep thinking, taking on new ideas, and adding them to
the mix!
> Anyone stuck in the past is destined to remain there!<g>
> Paul
I can't find the original post of this thread - what is the book
under discussion?
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Stuck?
2003-08-05 13:51:44
Jonathan Hughes ³Arthurian Myths and Alchemy².
> From: "brunhild613" <brunhild@...>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:29:23 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Stuck?
>
> I can't find the original post of this thread - what is the book
> under discussion?
> From: "brunhild613" <brunhild@...>
> Reply-To:
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:29:23 -0000
> To:
> Subject: Re: Stuck?
>
> I can't find the original post of this thread - what is the book
> under discussion?
Re: Stuck?
2003-08-06 22:16:05
--- In , "P.T.Bale"
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
>
> > From: "mariewalsh2003" <marie@r...>
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:00:15 -0000
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Stuck?
> >
> > I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
> > they're really opening up the debate
> Three cheers for you for this Marie!
> Let us all keep thinking, taking on new ideas, and adding them to
the mix!
> Anyone stuck in the past is destined to remain there!<g>
> Paul
Hi, nice to hear from you again.
I'm off on holiday for a week from Friday, everyone, so you'll get a
rest from me.
By the way, I'm taking The Court of the Midnight King with me. I've
not read any Ricardian novels for years, so perhaps this isn't a good
place to start. But I shall see.
Marie
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
>
> > From: "mariewalsh2003" <marie@r...>
> > Reply-To:
> > Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:00:15 -0000
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: Stuck?
> >
> > I think this book, and the Michael Jones one, are great because
> > they're really opening up the debate
> Three cheers for you for this Marie!
> Let us all keep thinking, taking on new ideas, and adding them to
the mix!
> Anyone stuck in the past is destined to remain there!<g>
> Paul
Hi, nice to hear from you again.
I'm off on holiday for a week from Friday, everyone, so you'll get a
rest from me.
By the way, I'm taking The Court of the Midnight King with me. I've
not read any Ricardian novels for years, so perhaps this isn't a good
place to start. But I shall see.
Marie
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